Red shirts sidelined and struggling for attention? If you judge them by the size of turnouts at their rallies, that may appear to be true. It’s unlikely that they’ll ever be able to match last Songkran’s turnout again. We need to keep in mind, though, that the strategy of the red leaders at the time was simply to get as many red folks as possible to come to the rally in the hope that somehow their number would mean something. The leaders must have learned by now that numbers alone don’t really make a difference.
Yet, the fact that we’re even talking about the reds at all after the Songkran crushing is remarkable in itself. On the whole I think the reds as a movement are now bigger than ever. And the Khao Yai Tieng case alone is enough to disprove your point that they struggle for attention.
100 pages of weasel words by the looks of things. Worth noting that Thaksin has never really emanated any real vibe of wanting social justice. With him, it always seems to be an investigation designed to find a quick cheap and nasty fix with immediate benefits for him and his mafia clan family
On a couple of occasions last year, visiting downtown Yangon, I noticed small groups of young men, in full punk get-up. Ripped T-shirts and tartan drainpipe trousers, and at least one multicoloured Mohican – but carefully ripped, and nevertheless expensively dressed. One guy sported a black T-shirt with red letters proclaiming “no rules, no authority”. Quite a risky statement in contemporary Burma – but one which is presumably tolerated because the intent is fashionable rather than political.
Sorry, I forgot to add the Andaman and Nicobar Islands also on the list of territories Burma has to reclaim from India. Chinese will be really, really happy to permanently station a fleet of their mighty navy there.
Thank you for sharing this fascinating treasure with us. I think China should not only preserve the inheritance of this finely-crafted art but should proliferate and encourage more women to produce them. At the same time, the U.S. and others should help make room for marketing these exotic and aesthetic art works, especially the hand stitching ones. I mean we should make globalization to preserve the art hard to make and to ensure the continuity of creativity and beauty.
With available markets, those precious skills will be passed along to the next generation. I hope the Chinese government sees the attractiveness of the diversity and values the skill, imagination, and perseverance of those young women’s culture. Yes, “Enamored with their beauty and creativity, and enchanted by their exoticness.”
“reality-based analysis of contemporary Thai politics, and how it (sic) operates…”
Eyes of the beholder holds for some of this so-called reality-based analysis. Prejudice, misinformation, wrong impressions, intentional misdirection and so on all add up to part of that reality. theory, examples, exceptions and explanations from academics help but won’t resolve the entire issue of making an informed decision as to what constitutes reality.
I just read back to what Alladin wrote concerning what DT actually said. One of her damning LM speeches can be found on YouTube – ironically, only recently blocked in Thailand. Main LM parts are subtitle in English.
She also questions the taboo subject of the death of Ananda.
You are right- these are local tribes, mainly Tangsa (naga family) and Singpho (Kachin) and other tribes closely related to Burma. Most Goverment officers are however locals (Arunachalees as they are called in India), but you are right as some of them are from proper India. That is however routine in this country – like the Governor of Bombay is a Naga; the Police boss of Bangalore is a Mizo(Burmese Chin) etc.
About Burmese reclamation of Assam and Manipur, that is an open question really depending on the terms of the original Anglo-Burmese treaty. Does someone have a copy still 🙂
The audience at the Bangkok Club will surely appreciate this sort of empty name dropping. Ohers might prefer listening to somebody who is willing to enter into a reality-based analysis of contemporary Thai politics, and how it operates.
How about standing up to the King’s portrait and being forced to listen Thai anthem at the movie theaters in Thailand.
It always remind me of standing up to the Burmese pinion and rice-stalk flag and being forced to listen Burmese anthem back in the movie theaters of Burma.
I guess any Thai who had been on the Internet long enough knows where to find “subversive content” and has seen the substance of it already. Some of it has surely registered in their minds, some probably got dismissed.
If English board like Thaivisa is anything to go by, the political topics are dominated and directed by very few individuals, vast majority being too lazy to keep up. For some users passions run high, others can’t force themselves to read through this shit, and everybody has got an opinion, no one is absolutely clueless.
And yes, regular “fighters” usually take themselves too seriously.
The snobbery of the two earlier comments is staggering.
As for the arguments – the notion that ALL popular culture is just pure brainwashing is something put together by elite academics from the early 20th Century. They were terrified of Jazz, cinema etc and sought to diminish these cultural forms so that higher forms, such as the classical music and figurative art they were being paid to study, would hold sway.
These days anyone with the most basic knowledge of popular culture knows that plenty in it does take on dominant discourses, seeking out new spaces for agency, devolving cultural production and communicating refusals. Such a process would threaten the kind of power structures that holds sway in Burma by its mere existence.
Furthermore the notion of some brilliantly preserved “traditional” culture that is pure and untainted is just bunkum and alludes to similar arguments made about race. Culture, like history and identity, is not a fixed, frozen article – it is, and always has been, in perpetual motion.
Of course not all Punk, or Punks, for example, challenge dominant discourses. But, Punk does have some track record of doing so, extrapolating, in some instances to the nth degree, Dylan’s protest songs.
For the Burmese youth to be finding a creative outlet, not sullied by the hand of the generals and outside all the present power structures is incredibly positive.
They could, literally, be putting their lives on the line communicating this most basic refusal.
To attempt to dismiss their actions because of some outdated and, quite frankly, politically suspect cultural snobbery is a pretty weak and low line to take.
Thanks Chris Beale on Jan 24 for reminding us of Barrington Moore. He was my tutor and I have been applying his thinking to Thailand and most every other country since the late 1960’s.
You all might also want to check out my article in Asian Survey in 1968 noting that many in Thailand use a structure that could be called a non-participatory democracy. A bit odd from the old SDS perspective perhaps, but then not every tune is written in the west.
And do people read Stanley Tambiah any more on Thai culture as it shapes Thai political institutions? World Conqueror World Renouncer is a fine analysis, introduced the mandala concept of personal appeal to followers as a Weberian ideal type of political organization.
Internet forums in Thailand only cystalize what people are saying anyway. And my anecdotal experience from working throughout Thailand and dealing with a whole range of people is that a groundswell of general dissatisfaction with every one (except the old guy) is very very tangible. They’ve had enough of the lackeys, the lickspittles, the minor figures and the generals. And these people are not UDD red shirts – most also expressed a loathing of Thaksin as well.
I was recently with two completely random Thai strangers as we were pulled over, made to stop, made to get out of our vehicles and then made to stand to attention as an entourage of members of the elite went past.
I asked these guys how they felt as they stood, pissed off and surly backs to the road in an obvious sign of disrespect.
“We hate this.”
If there is anyone guilty of attaching importance to their comments it is you StanG.
So for years it was the poor Isanese clashing with elites, now it’s industrialists, too?
If you ignore red shirts for a moment, there’s no sign of any serious conflict in a society, and the red shirts themselves are increasingly getting sidelined and struggling for attention.
Not an Indian face in the crowd. They all look like either Nagas or Kachins. I bet all the magistrates, district administrators, police officers, prison superintendents, and especially the army officers lording over them are all Indians sent direct from the proper India.
British took these remote territories away from Burma and incorporated into their India after the Anglo-Burmese wars. It’s about time Burma to reclaim her former territories of Assam and Manipur from India.
The hard thing to test is, crudely, the velocity with which the Internet allows this material to get around. In fact, question number 15 on my long list of questions for the study of mainland Southeast Asia tilts in that direction: “Is it possible to quantify the velocity of gossip about Thailand’s royal family?”
Spam e-mail is a spurious comparison. And whether or not the flow of subversive content currently gets a positive reception is, to an extent, beside the point. It may not appeal to your ideology but I don’t think anybody has even scratched the surface of the latent Thai (and, to a lesser degree, global) curiosity about a huge range of Thai political topics.
Here is a an interesting blog that is promoting “Saya Anak Bangsa Malaysia” or loosely translated into “I am the child of the Malaysian race” .
Bangsa in English can translated into either race or ethnicity. Clearly, if there was a Bangsa Malaysia, then it would be a step forward in resolving significant issues related to race relations in Malaysia.
Michelle Voon is another Malaysian who is studying abroad and promoting a Malaysia for all.
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Stephen B. Young on a “grand consultation”
@StanG #3
Red shirts sidelined and struggling for attention? If you judge them by the size of turnouts at their rallies, that may appear to be true. It’s unlikely that they’ll ever be able to match last Songkran’s turnout again. We need to keep in mind, though, that the strategy of the red leaders at the time was simply to get as many red folks as possible to come to the rally in the hope that somehow their number would mean something. The leaders must have learned by now that numbers alone don’t really make a difference.
Yet, the fact that we’re even talking about the reds at all after the Songkran crushing is remarkable in itself. On the whole I think the reds as a movement are now bigger than ever. And the Khao Yai Tieng case alone is enough to disprove your point that they struggle for attention.
Stephen B. Young on a “grand consultation”
Perhaps that is because it is increasingly obvious that the redshirts lie every bit as much as those they are fighting against.
Thaksin’s PhD
100 pages of weasel words by the looks of things. Worth noting that Thaksin has never really emanated any real vibe of wanting social justice. With him, it always seems to be an investigation designed to find a quick cheap and nasty fix with immediate benefits for him and his mafia clan family
Yangon punks
On a couple of occasions last year, visiting downtown Yangon, I noticed small groups of young men, in full punk get-up. Ripped T-shirts and tartan drainpipe trousers, and at least one multicoloured Mohican – but carefully ripped, and nevertheless expensively dressed. One guy sported a black T-shirt with red letters proclaiming “no rules, no authority”. Quite a risky statement in contemporary Burma – but one which is presumably tolerated because the intent is fashionable rather than political.
Stephen B. Young on a “grand consultation”
Once again StanG’s brilliant and profound insight and understanding of the present situation in Thailand is on display for all to see and emulate.
The Stilwell Road
Dear Sangos,
Sorry, I forgot to add the Andaman and Nicobar Islands also on the list of territories Burma has to reclaim from India. Chinese will be really, really happy to permanently station a fleet of their mighty navy there.
Collection seeks soul mate
Thank you for sharing this fascinating treasure with us. I think China should not only preserve the inheritance of this finely-crafted art but should proliferate and encourage more women to produce them. At the same time, the U.S. and others should help make room for marketing these exotic and aesthetic art works, especially the hand stitching ones. I mean we should make globalization to preserve the art hard to make and to ensure the continuity of creativity and beauty.
With available markets, those precious skills will be passed along to the next generation. I hope the Chinese government sees the attractiveness of the diversity and values the skill, imagination, and perseverance of those young women’s culture. Yes, “Enamored with their beauty and creativity, and enchanted by their exoticness.”
The return of Thailand’s old friend
“reality-based analysis of contemporary Thai politics, and how it (sic) operates…”
Eyes of the beholder holds for some of this so-called reality-based analysis. Prejudice, misinformation, wrong impressions, intentional misdirection and so on all add up to part of that reality. theory, examples, exceptions and explanations from academics help but won’t resolve the entire issue of making an informed decision as to what constitutes reality.
On the judgment against Da Torpedo
I just read back to what Alladin wrote concerning what DT actually said. One of her damning LM speeches can be found on YouTube – ironically, only recently blocked in Thailand. Main LM parts are subtitle in English.
She also questions the taboo subject of the death of Ananda.
The Stilwell Road
@Hla Oo
I can see where you are coming from in your post.
You are right- these are local tribes, mainly Tangsa (naga family) and Singpho (Kachin) and other tribes closely related to Burma. Most Goverment officers are however locals (Arunachalees as they are called in India), but you are right as some of them are from proper India. That is however routine in this country – like the Governor of Bombay is a Naga; the Police boss of Bangalore is a Mizo(Burmese Chin) etc.
About Burmese reclamation of Assam and Manipur, that is an open question really depending on the terms of the original Anglo-Burmese treaty. Does someone have a copy still 🙂
The return of Thailand’s old friend
The audience at the Bangkok Club will surely appreciate this sort of empty name dropping. Ohers might prefer listening to somebody who is willing to enter into a reality-based analysis of contemporary Thai politics, and how it operates.
On the judgment against Da Torpedo
How about standing up to the King’s portrait and being forced to listen Thai anthem at the movie theaters in Thailand.
It always remind me of standing up to the Burmese pinion and rice-stalk flag and being forced to listen Burmese anthem back in the movie theaters of Burma.
So backward, so primitive, and so dictatorial!
On the judgment against Da Torpedo
I guess any Thai who had been on the Internet long enough knows where to find “subversive content” and has seen the substance of it already. Some of it has surely registered in their minds, some probably got dismissed.
If English board like Thaivisa is anything to go by, the political topics are dominated and directed by very few individuals, vast majority being too lazy to keep up. For some users passions run high, others can’t force themselves to read through this shit, and everybody has got an opinion, no one is absolutely clueless.
And yes, regular “fighters” usually take themselves too seriously.
Yangon punks
The snobbery of the two earlier comments is staggering.
As for the arguments – the notion that ALL popular culture is just pure brainwashing is something put together by elite academics from the early 20th Century. They were terrified of Jazz, cinema etc and sought to diminish these cultural forms so that higher forms, such as the classical music and figurative art they were being paid to study, would hold sway.
These days anyone with the most basic knowledge of popular culture knows that plenty in it does take on dominant discourses, seeking out new spaces for agency, devolving cultural production and communicating refusals. Such a process would threaten the kind of power structures that holds sway in Burma by its mere existence.
Furthermore the notion of some brilliantly preserved “traditional” culture that is pure and untainted is just bunkum and alludes to similar arguments made about race. Culture, like history and identity, is not a fixed, frozen article – it is, and always has been, in perpetual motion.
Of course not all Punk, or Punks, for example, challenge dominant discourses. But, Punk does have some track record of doing so, extrapolating, in some instances to the nth degree, Dylan’s protest songs.
For the Burmese youth to be finding a creative outlet, not sullied by the hand of the generals and outside all the present power structures is incredibly positive.
They could, literally, be putting their lives on the line communicating this most basic refusal.
To attempt to dismiss their actions because of some outdated and, quite frankly, politically suspect cultural snobbery is a pretty weak and low line to take.
The return of Thailand’s old friend
Thanks Chris Beale on Jan 24 for reminding us of Barrington Moore. He was my tutor and I have been applying his thinking to Thailand and most every other country since the late 1960’s.
You all might also want to check out my article in Asian Survey in 1968 noting that many in Thailand use a structure that could be called a non-participatory democracy. A bit odd from the old SDS perspective perhaps, but then not every tune is written in the west.
And do people read Stanley Tambiah any more on Thai culture as it shapes Thai political institutions? World Conqueror World Renouncer is a fine analysis, introduced the mandala concept of personal appeal to followers as a Weberian ideal type of political organization.
On the judgment against Da Torpedo
@StanG
Internet forums in Thailand only cystalize what people are saying anyway. And my anecdotal experience from working throughout Thailand and dealing with a whole range of people is that a groundswell of general dissatisfaction with every one (except the old guy) is very very tangible. They’ve had enough of the lackeys, the lickspittles, the minor figures and the generals. And these people are not UDD red shirts – most also expressed a loathing of Thaksin as well.
I was recently with two completely random Thai strangers as we were pulled over, made to stop, made to get out of our vehicles and then made to stand to attention as an entourage of members of the elite went past.
I asked these guys how they felt as they stood, pissed off and surly backs to the road in an obvious sign of disrespect.
“We hate this.”
If there is anyone guilty of attaching importance to their comments it is you StanG.
Stephen B. Young on a “grand consultation”
So for years it was the poor Isanese clashing with elites, now it’s industrialists, too?
If you ignore red shirts for a moment, there’s no sign of any serious conflict in a society, and the red shirts themselves are increasingly getting sidelined and struggling for attention.
The Stilwell Road
Not an Indian face in the crowd. They all look like either Nagas or Kachins. I bet all the magistrates, district administrators, police officers, prison superintendents, and especially the army officers lording over them are all Indians sent direct from the proper India.
British took these remote territories away from Burma and incorporated into their India after the Anglo-Burmese wars. It’s about time Burma to reclaim her former territories of Assam and Manipur from India.
On the judgment against Da Torpedo
StanG,
The hard thing to test is, crudely, the velocity with which the Internet allows this material to get around. In fact, question number 15 on my long list of questions for the study of mainland Southeast Asia tilts in that direction: “Is it possible to quantify the velocity of gossip about Thailand’s royal family?”
Spam e-mail is a spurious comparison. And whether or not the flow of subversive content currently gets a positive reception is, to an extent, beside the point. It may not appeal to your ideology but I don’t think anybody has even scratched the surface of the latent Thai (and, to a lesser degree, global) curiosity about a huge range of Thai political topics.
Perhaps we should make a list…
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Overcoming Malaysia’s racial divisions
Here is a an interesting blog that is promoting “Saya Anak Bangsa Malaysia” or loosely translated into “I am the child of the Malaysian race” .
Bangsa in English can translated into either race or ethnicity. Clearly, if there was a Bangsa Malaysia, then it would be a step forward in resolving significant issues related to race relations in Malaysia.
Michelle Voon is another Malaysian who is studying abroad and promoting a Malaysia for all.