This whole ‘Isarn break-away’ doesn’t sound plausible. I noticed that in Udon Thani just as much Tai people say that they are ‘Thai’ then that they are ‘Lao’. The economic progress of Thailand compared to Lao makes them proud to be Thai. Old cultural links get replaced by modern economic ones.
I have read the judgement article as I am an avid follower of the Malaysian Insider. Very well constructed judgement, but totally ignored by the “Law” minister nazri. That’s the amount of respect UMNO politicians has for the law in Malaysia. As far as UMNO is concern, their “word” is the Law.
Mr Nazri went further to say that the burning of churches goes to prove that the govt pre-emptice ban on the use of “Allah” is correct – again, never mind the Law
JJ #7
As far as I am concerned,
Thakky was not heroic in paying back IMF sooner;
he rush paying the debts that should be paid back within decades by within few years,
but erasing almost all national reserves to be used for
others in the nations for ages within his short shiny era.
Is that brilliant, or is that idiotic?
Ah, but Chris believes rumors. We have come full circle on the rangers rumors and not a shred of evidence. I’m going with Nick and giving this a rest, just pointing out (again) that Chris was wrong even on the part of the rumor about who was meant to be leading the mysterious rangers. I have a pretty good collection of stories from the coup period in files and can find no pre-coup story on the rangers. All the stories I can find are post-coup and even these report rumors. No evidence has ever been shown or presented anywhere. As I said before, if anyone finds any, please let me know.
Suzie Wong – a good post re. Ji Ungkaporn’s good character.
I have a lot of respect for the man, despite strongly disagreeing
with his politics.
In particular, Ji’s elite background leads him to a revolutionary elite position, and his ignoring important aspects of self-identification proceeding among the grass-roots.
You talk a lot about Chinese – but huge numbers of Thaksin supporters identify themselves as LAO Isaarn, who form the bulk of poor and working class, both urban migrant and rural.
They only partly self-identify in class terms – they also strongly identify in regional terms. A nascent nationalism likely to inflame, if the elite simply rids itself of Thaksin, one way or another.
Frank – as you have self-identified as being in Thailand, be careful those dogs don’t bite !!!
The Islamic fervor that had led to outbreaks of violence is a very serious matter because it reflects clerics espousing anti-Western preaching against Christian churches. There is a big difference between religious devotion or radical politics and violence. While many people may start the journey toward extremist Islam, only a small number of people are committed to bloodshed. Are clerics espousing anti-Western ideals trying to indoctrinate Malaysian people with religious extremism and intolerance. We have to be able to realize that the next step to burning is killing or extremist Islam to terrorists.
I urge the Malaysian government to take serious assessment of the enormous human and financial costs if allowing the current violent conflicts to escalate. Around the world, we have concepts, tools and strategies for preventing conflicts from becoming violent in this particular aspect. Have the Malaysian government consult or requesting any assistance from the U.S. that has effective measures to deal with this kind of situation.
At the day of the coup i was in Europe, but flew back 2 days or so after. Previous to the coup i have taken photos all along the protests from the start, but i have not yet seen the use and possibilities of doing reports on a blog (my wrong).
Personally, i have not seen any hard evidence of these Rangers supposedly descending to Bangkok to attack the PAD, only rumors. Even intelligence services only re-reported those same rumors. There has not been one single court case on this issue, even though such a case, if true, would be one of the possibly most damaging cases against Thaksin and his network.
I do dismiss this issue, as i have no hard evidence. Newspaper reports on such rumors i do dismiss as well when i cannot corroborate the information given through my contacts.
And the issue of those rangers simply defies any logic. By the time Thaksin’s loyalists in the military have already been removed into irrelevant positions after the inner military coup resulting from Prem’s infamous jockey speech. The factions in the military that have taken over power at the time could already do what they wanted to, which they have also done with the coup. 1000 forest rangers with rifles would have been no match, and could have been stopped, if they would have even existed. This issue would not have needed a coup to be dealt with.
In the fall of 2006 there was one single group of security forces that has attacked its opponents with the force of unconstitutional violence – and that was the coup group overthrowing the government not long before elections were to have taken place.
So many actions are justified by rumors without evidence. May i just remind you of the infamous “Finland Declaration” of which there is no supporting evidence at all, and the fallout resulting from it. Read the newspapapers, in particular Thanong in the Nation, who in almost every single article comes up with another insane conspiracy theory.
My earlier comments about nonsense and waste of time seem to have been further ignored by Thai Tax Paye: Same rationale, in fact, as barking dogs here in Thailand. When a neighbor makes a complaint about the barking dogs of another, the comeback is often “Dogs bark naturally.” If TTP does not see the nonsense in this kind of rationale then we can expect more…
You can say it. But if you can’t provide any evidence, or at very least a line of argument, don’t expect anyone to believe you.
If I am correct, Thailand has blocked hundreds, if not thousands of websites. A large number of people have been arrested and jailed for minor (or non-existent) offenses. The country has passed draconian laws that provide for jail just for using a proxy server.
Well now I’m glad I’ve successfully provoked the “but everyone pays VAT” response.
Was going to mention this caveat, but NM specifically calls for “pithy input”, so left it to others to make this point. “Short and sweet” is the requirement.
Sven – maybe you could enlightenment on which part or proportion of VAT goes to the Royals ?
Thai Tax Payer, I guess the author has one standard in name spelling regardless of the Thai social feudalistic class system (which was the product of Indianization of Southeast Asia during the colonial era). He intentionally spells it that way for equality intention. It simply reflects his ethical standard and belief that everyone is equal. I myself have been practicing in the same manner, i.e. Phumipon, Wachiralongkorn. I don’t think you can advocate equality when you have double standards of name spelling.
In addition, I suppose he would like to express that straightforward plain and simple can be elegant on its own in his translation of Thai words into English. Nowadays, Thais borrow words from Khmer, Indian’s Bali and Sansakrit and mixing them up to create names and last names, when in fact they ethnically are Chinese. It looks really funny (even though it was the legacy of the Thailandization during the Cold War). I think the rise of China in the 21st century would change those mistakes. If one does not respect one’s heritage, it’s hard for others to respect you. Lack of self confidence, when they translate the Thai words into English, they prefer to make them unnecessary complex English.
Don’t forget that the author is competent in Thai, English and French. He taught the brightest Thais in Thai at Chulalongkorn university. Also mind you that he comes from a very elite family in Thai social class who chooses to live humbly like an ordinary Thai people. He has an extremely elite educational background for Thailand, England and European standards. He is a confident person who said he’s a proud Chinese, English and Thai. All in all, I think Giles Ji just wants to say to Thais that be simple in form but be competent in substance is better and more respectable. This is where the line between educated and uneducated norms draw in most societies; it doesn’t matter what you have but it does matter who you are.
Ralph – I was n’t saying I agreed with Nick. Sorry for giving anyone the wrong impression on that.
Merely that his was the best counter-argument I’ve come across so far, especially weighty given his on-the-scene reporting, and the high quality of his journalism generally.
But I’m not sure if Nick was even in Thailand at the time of the coup – I did n’t come across his writing and photos until well after then.
Also I’m not sure Nick is correct about the military being able to stop those Rangers entering Bangkok. Thaksin was still PM, and if they were his private army, he would have blocked military moves to block his private army (does anyone here enjoy chess ?).
It’s important to remember that Thaksin had his placemen in very senior positions throughout the military.
Indeed my argument is that the coup was a just-in-time pre-emptive strike against Thaksin gaining total control of the military, with the annual top-brass re-shuffle pending.
And let us not forget the pro-Thaksin Third Army had to be persuaded that there was “a misunderstanding” and that they should not march on Bangkok, in his support.
I sympathise with your plight re. accessing print editions of the Post and Nation. It’s a difficulty we all face here in Oz. But I can assure I was living in Thailand at that time, and read the Post almost daily, and the Nation as often as possible. They may have been under pressure or misled into printing fabrications, but given the balance of power then, this is every bit as likely to have come from Thaksin’s camp as anywhere else.
I think the originality of this volume is precisely that its case studies expose the tremendous cultural and political ambiguity contained in the word ‘Tai’ (Thai) that is often occluded behind the ‘certainty’ of the nation-state paradigm. I wonder how many Thais recognise that the name of their country has a broader cultural meaning and that it reflects the regional imperialist tendencies of their elites? For that matter I wonder how many of the new generation in Isaarn recognise this?
Frankly, I think Najib knows that UMNO (& BN) needs to reform. However, UMNO hardliners do not want to, and are taking advantage of issues that have been set in motion many decades ago – specifically during the time of the Mahathir regime. Badawi was incapble of reversing it and my honest opinion is that Najib is also incapble of doing it.
UMNO in short is incapble of reform. Malay Muslims will now need to decide if they want UMNO or PAS & PKR. to “represent” their interest.
Here is the link to the Judge’s decision as surmarised by The Malaysian Insider.
Not only in Thailand and Lao, soon in Australia you will have internet censorship too. Can I just say that Thailand and Lao are more advanced than Australia in this regard? 🙂
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Abhisit at Samak’s funeral
We should forget him and this Al Jazeera interview is a good source to remember him alive. Especially [01:10]!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuoqLiLSgnI
The sum of all fears
This whole ‘Isarn break-away’ doesn’t sound plausible. I noticed that in Udon Thani just as much Tai people say that they are ‘Thai’ then that they are ‘Lao’. The economic progress of Thailand compared to Lao makes them proud to be Thai. Old cultural links get replaced by modern economic ones.
The Allah dilemma in Malaysia
hai Lopez,
I have read the judgement article as I am an avid follower of the Malaysian Insider. Very well constructed judgement, but totally ignored by the “Law” minister nazri. That’s the amount of respect UMNO politicians has for the law in Malaysia. As far as UMNO is concern, their “word” is the Law.
Mr Nazri went further to say that the burning of churches goes to prove that the govt pre-emptice ban on the use of “Allah” is correct – again, never mind the Law
The Allah dilemma in Malaysia
Susie Wong
“Have the Malaysian government consult or requesting any assistance from the U.S. that has effective measures to deal with this kind of situation.”
I sure hope not! Every place that the US stick their hand into to “resolve” this kind of situation turn the country into a war zone.
Thanks Susie, but no thanks!
Red Shirts at Surayud’s holiday paradise
JJ #7
As far as I am concerned,
Thakky was not heroic in paying back IMF sooner;
he rush paying the debts that should be paid back within decades by within few years,
but erasing almost all national reserves to be used for
others in the nations for ages within his short shiny era.
Is that brilliant, or is that idiotic?
Thaksin on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
On the forest rangers, see:
(Chang Noi): http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/10/02/opinion/opinion_30015127.php
(Asian Sentinel): http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?Itemid=185&id=288&option=com_content&task=view
As others have suggested, what is perhaps more significant is what you don’t see: any evidence that the forest rangers story was true.
Giles Ji Ungpakorn on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
Look at what John Brown said and read it carefully. Not just VAT. For a tidbit on taxpayer contributions to palace expenses, see http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2009/09/10/new-royal-expenses/
Thaksin on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
Ah, but Chris believes rumors. We have come full circle on the rangers rumors and not a shred of evidence. I’m going with Nick and giving this a rest, just pointing out (again) that Chris was wrong even on the part of the rumor about who was meant to be leading the mysterious rangers. I have a pretty good collection of stories from the coup period in files and can find no pre-coup story on the rangers. All the stories I can find are post-coup and even these report rumors. No evidence has ever been shown or presented anywhere. As I said before, if anyone finds any, please let me know.
Giles Ji Ungpakorn on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
Chris Beale,
If being corrected whenever you are wrong makes you glad, it is no surprise that you seem to enjoy commenting on this blog so much.
Rather than waiting for Sven to enlighten you, I stuck the string “Thai Royal family budget” into Google and found lots of information.
http://historymcmu.blogspot.com/2008/03/expenditure-on-royal-family-for-2008.html
http://jotman.blogspot.com/2008/02/worlds-most-expensive-royal-family.html
Now if you Google Thai Vat receipts or income tax revenues and do some simple math, you’ll get your answers.
Giles Ji Ungpakorn on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
Suzie Wong – a good post re. Ji Ungkaporn’s good character.
I have a lot of respect for the man, despite strongly disagreeing
with his politics.
In particular, Ji’s elite background leads him to a revolutionary elite position, and his ignoring important aspects of self-identification proceeding among the grass-roots.
You talk a lot about Chinese – but huge numbers of Thaksin supporters identify themselves as LAO Isaarn, who form the bulk of poor and working class, both urban migrant and rural.
They only partly self-identify in class terms – they also strongly identify in regional terms. A nascent nationalism likely to inflame, if the elite simply rids itself of Thaksin, one way or another.
Frank – as you have self-identified as being in Thailand, be careful those dogs don’t bite !!!
The Allah dilemma in Malaysia
The Islamic fervor that had led to outbreaks of violence is a very serious matter because it reflects clerics espousing anti-Western preaching against Christian churches. There is a big difference between religious devotion or radical politics and violence. While many people may start the journey toward extremist Islam, only a small number of people are committed to bloodshed. Are clerics espousing anti-Western ideals trying to indoctrinate Malaysian people with religious extremism and intolerance. We have to be able to realize that the next step to burning is killing or extremist Islam to terrorists.
I urge the Malaysian government to take serious assessment of the enormous human and financial costs if allowing the current violent conflicts to escalate. Around the world, we have concepts, tools and strategies for preventing conflicts from becoming violent in this particular aspect. Have the Malaysian government consult or requesting any assistance from the U.S. that has effective measures to deal with this kind of situation.
Thaksin on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
“Chris Beale”:
At the day of the coup i was in Europe, but flew back 2 days or so after. Previous to the coup i have taken photos all along the protests from the start, but i have not yet seen the use and possibilities of doing reports on a blog (my wrong).
Personally, i have not seen any hard evidence of these Rangers supposedly descending to Bangkok to attack the PAD, only rumors. Even intelligence services only re-reported those same rumors. There has not been one single court case on this issue, even though such a case, if true, would be one of the possibly most damaging cases against Thaksin and his network.
I do dismiss this issue, as i have no hard evidence. Newspaper reports on such rumors i do dismiss as well when i cannot corroborate the information given through my contacts.
And the issue of those rangers simply defies any logic. By the time Thaksin’s loyalists in the military have already been removed into irrelevant positions after the inner military coup resulting from Prem’s infamous jockey speech. The factions in the military that have taken over power at the time could already do what they wanted to, which they have also done with the coup. 1000 forest rangers with rifles would have been no match, and could have been stopped, if they would have even existed. This issue would not have needed a coup to be dealt with.
In the fall of 2006 there was one single group of security forces that has attacked its opponents with the force of unconstitutional violence – and that was the coup group overthrowing the government not long before elections were to have taken place.
So many actions are justified by rumors without evidence. May i just remind you of the infamous “Finland Declaration” of which there is no supporting evidence at all, and the fallout resulting from it. Read the newspapapers, in particular Thanong in the Nation, who in almost every single article comes up with another insane conspiracy theory.
Giles Ji Ungpakorn on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
My earlier comments about nonsense and waste of time seem to have been further ignored by Thai Tax Paye: Same rationale, in fact, as barking dogs here in Thailand. When a neighbor makes a complaint about the barking dogs of another, the comeback is often “Dogs bark naturally.” If TTP does not see the nonsense in this kind of rationale then we can expect more…
Giles Ji Ungpakorn on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
TTP,
You can say it. But if you can’t provide any evidence, or at very least a line of argument, don’t expect anyone to believe you.
If I am correct, Thailand has blocked hundreds, if not thousands of websites. A large number of people have been arrested and jailed for minor (or non-existent) offenses. The country has passed draconian laws that provide for jail just for using a proxy server.
So, what has Australia done that is worse?
Giles Ji Ungpakorn on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
Well now I’m glad I’ve successfully provoked the “but everyone pays VAT” response.
Was going to mention this caveat, but NM specifically calls for “pithy input”, so left it to others to make this point. “Short and sweet” is the requirement.
Sven – maybe you could enlightenment on which part or proportion of VAT goes to the Royals ?
Giles Ji Ungpakorn on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
Thai Tax Payer, I guess the author has one standard in name spelling regardless of the Thai social feudalistic class system (which was the product of Indianization of Southeast Asia during the colonial era). He intentionally spells it that way for equality intention. It simply reflects his ethical standard and belief that everyone is equal. I myself have been practicing in the same manner, i.e. Phumipon, Wachiralongkorn. I don’t think you can advocate equality when you have double standards of name spelling.
In addition, I suppose he would like to express that straightforward plain and simple can be elegant on its own in his translation of Thai words into English. Nowadays, Thais borrow words from Khmer, Indian’s Bali and Sansakrit and mixing them up to create names and last names, when in fact they ethnically are Chinese. It looks really funny (even though it was the legacy of the Thailandization during the Cold War). I think the rise of China in the 21st century would change those mistakes. If one does not respect one’s heritage, it’s hard for others to respect you. Lack of self confidence, when they translate the Thai words into English, they prefer to make them unnecessary complex English.
Don’t forget that the author is competent in Thai, English and French. He taught the brightest Thais in Thai at Chulalongkorn university. Also mind you that he comes from a very elite family in Thai social class who chooses to live humbly like an ordinary Thai people. He has an extremely elite educational background for Thailand, England and European standards. He is a confident person who said he’s a proud Chinese, English and Thai. All in all, I think Giles Ji just wants to say to Thais that be simple in form but be competent in substance is better and more respectable. This is where the line between educated and uneducated norms draw in most societies; it doesn’t matter what you have but it does matter who you are.
Thaksin on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
Ralph – I was n’t saying I agreed with Nick. Sorry for giving anyone the wrong impression on that.
Merely that his was the best counter-argument I’ve come across so far, especially weighty given his on-the-scene reporting, and the high quality of his journalism generally.
But I’m not sure if Nick was even in Thailand at the time of the coup – I did n’t come across his writing and photos until well after then.
Also I’m not sure Nick is correct about the military being able to stop those Rangers entering Bangkok. Thaksin was still PM, and if they were his private army, he would have blocked military moves to block his private army (does anyone here enjoy chess ?).
It’s important to remember that Thaksin had his placemen in very senior positions throughout the military.
Indeed my argument is that the coup was a just-in-time pre-emptive strike against Thaksin gaining total control of the military, with the annual top-brass re-shuffle pending.
And let us not forget the pro-Thaksin Third Army had to be persuaded that there was “a misunderstanding” and that they should not march on Bangkok, in his support.
I sympathise with your plight re. accessing print editions of the Post and Nation. It’s a difficulty we all face here in Oz. But I can assure I was living in Thailand at that time, and read the Post almost daily, and the Nation as often as possible. They may have been under pressure or misled into printing fabrications, but given the balance of power then, this is every bit as likely to have come from Thaksin’s camp as anywhere else.
Tai Lands and Thailand
I think the originality of this volume is precisely that its case studies expose the tremendous cultural and political ambiguity contained in the word ‘Tai’ (Thai) that is often occluded behind the ‘certainty’ of the nation-state paradigm. I wonder how many Thais recognise that the name of their country has a broader cultural meaning and that it reflects the regional imperialist tendencies of their elites? For that matter I wonder how many of the new generation in Isaarn recognise this?
The Allah dilemma in Malaysia
Hi there HC,
Frankly, I think Najib knows that UMNO (& BN) needs to reform. However, UMNO hardliners do not want to, and are taking advantage of issues that have been set in motion many decades ago – specifically during the time of the Mahathir regime. Badawi was incapble of reversing it and my honest opinion is that Najib is also incapble of doing it.
UMNO in short is incapble of reform. Malay Muslims will now need to decide if they want UMNO or PAS & PKR. to “represent” their interest.
Here is the link to the Judge’s decision as surmarised by The Malaysian Insider.
Giles Ji Ungpakorn on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
Not only in Thailand and Lao, soon in Australia you will have internet censorship too. Can I just say that Thailand and Lao are more advanced than Australia in this regard? 🙂