There’s also a lovely song simply called “Poo Chana” by Sek Loso. I’m sure many Thais think the country would be a lot better off with people singing the Sek Loso song, than the anathema of confrontational anthems, sung by both Red and Yellow Shirts.
Frank Lee – the Thammasat massacre was in 1976, not 1973.
And a point often not mentioned, is that in addition to the appalling massacre, amid a welter of lies, of unarmed civilians peacefully demonstrating – was the overthrow of Seri Pramoj’s government. Seri Pramoj of course, was the conservative politican who narrowly saved Thailand from being turned into a
British colony, immediately after Word War Two. His pleas to America’s Congress to prevent this through dollar diplomacy carried weight because Pramoj had refused, as Thailand’s Washington ambassador at the time of Pearl Harbour, to insanely declare war on the United States, and thereafter set up the Free Thai movement against Japanese occupation of Thailand. Pramoj received an eternally shameful “korb khun KRAP” from those he had saved, with his overthrow in the wake of Thammasat’s massacre.
Our background (UK/German in my case) is always with us – and I probably made too much of Abhisit’s (partly) UK upbringing. My apologies if I seemed to imply that he would in some way “know better” or “behave better” only because of that UK background. I did go on to say why I thought – as a Thai and the current PM – he would automatically go to the ceremony.
I think you’re too modest about your own skills! I did read dudeist’s post at BP – not much for me to disagree with there.
The wikithai background on the historical novel, Victor of Ten Directions, can be found on the website using р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Кр╕Щр╕░р╕кр╕┤р╕Ър╕Чр╕┤р╕и as search phrase.
Are reds going to cement themselves as successors of Village Scouts and Nawapon? Why do they appear they so protective of Samak? Or are they just hijacking his funeral to continue with their political fight?
According to Pridiyathorn, Samak and Chuan were on the same debating team and won many competitions together (with Uthai Pimchaichon).
According to the Nation the song itself was called “Poo Chana Sib Thit” (“Victor of the Ten Directions”). I don’t know if there’s any special meaning in the lyrics that made three red leaders choose it for their dance number. The other song they apparently sang themselves was “Lan Klong Rob” (“War Drums”).
I’m sorry but I think you over rated the UK upbringing – I think Apisit going to the service had nothing to do with it. Although it’s a bit sad as a Thai that the first thing which came to mind when you thought of the Thai PM was his elite background. Doesn’t it sound very much like when you talk of a dog or similar show animals – from his pedigree and not from his achievements? Anyway, back to the funeral, short of you being the murderer of the one you go to pay respect to, Thai culture expects that you show up as a final act of forgiveness.
I’m a Thai who grew up here without the benefit of western upbringing or education. So naturally I’m not good at critical thinking or writing. However, I’d like to ask you to read the ‘Dudeist’ comments on the neighbor site Bangkok Pundit – which actually spoke my mind except on the bits on whether Apisit should or should not have gone to the funeral. (NM I hope this reference is ok)
I don’t know the proper description for that thing. You see it in the image – the huge loudspeaker the police officer is carrying. I have been last year on the receiving end of such a thing mounted on a pick up truck – it gives out a tremendous high pitched noise which hurts the ears a lot.
Steve, you got it all wrong. Newin and Aphisit paid last respect to Samak because it was Samak who organized the alliance of Newin and Aphisit. At the time, the People’s Power Party was split into two factions, the Gang of Four and the rest. Samak was with the Gang of Four (Newin, Chavarat the Interior Minister, Newin’s father the House Speaker, basically the Phumjai Thai Party). Samak’s wife in the picture is Charoen Pokapan employee, she brought the CP to join the Democrat Party coalition which had increased the financial support for the Democrat Party substantially. The current government was the making of Samak and his wife to a certain degree. Samak was closed with the Army Chief Anupong Paochinda. The two made a deal which gave confidence for Newin to defect from Thaksin.
Err, can anyone enlighten us on what exactly a ‘portable sound gun’ is? Yes, the clue is clearly in the name but does anyone have any further details? Sonic weapons? Interesting and disturbing.
Although I found Marc Askew’s recent book review of ‘Thaksin’ by Pasuk Pongpaichit and Chris Baker (Post, Nov.23) to be fairly commendable, I take issue with his comments on the Thai judiciary’s treatment of Thaksin’s blustering, bullying, blueblood bore and former proxy PM, Samak Sundaravej.
While one may argue that the decision to prosecute may have been selective, it cannot be denied that Samak, with the brazen disregard for civilized behavior and ‘inconvenient truths’ which have characterized his long, ugly political career, well and truly had it coming. Indeed only recently, as Thaksin’s proxy PM, Samak tried to reduce the scores of brutal murders at Thammassat University in 1973 in which he himself was strongly implicated to a single accidental death. Or as PM Samak said of himself at the time, “The Prime Minister has the power to do anything.”
As to the Court’s guilty verdict and subsequent sentencing itself, it seemed to me at the time that the salient point about the Court’s verdict was that Samak had lied under oath about receiving income for conducting the his show and that it was such barefaced lies that he flung in the judges’ faces, rather than his flimsy denials re the crass political nature of the show, that were responsible for the stiff sentence he subsequently incurred.
Of course, in Samak’s defense, one might be tempted to say of him as Mr. Askew does about the big boss i.e. Thaksin himself, “As a man of no real principle, ethical or political, he has reflected the forces swirling around him.” However, to me at least, that seems rather like what the Americans laughingly refer to as the ‘Twinkie defense’.
Michael I would say the number one reason the Red-Shirts called off their rally was in deference to His Majesty The King.
No doubt the ISA was also a consideration, these two factors are not mutually exclusive. The one hopeful factor is that both sides still claim loyalty to the Monarchy.
Us farang need to appreciate just how much this reverence means – I’ve seen an Isaarn taxi driver in Bangkok, an archetypical Red-shirt, lower himself in a 45 degree angle bow
and wai in front of a statue of King Chulalongkorn, still revered as a hero-God, for freeing his Isaarn family from slavery.
Let’s give Abhisit his due. Despite his (many) faults, it seems reasonable to expect that his UK upbringing would have instilled in him what’s expected at funeral ceremonies – i.e. to be as gracious as you can manage whatever the past history between you and the deceased. My understanding is that it’s not so very different in Thai culture – at least because you shouldn’t be criticising people who now can’t answer.
Newin attending? Arguably rather different from a current PM attending the rites for a former PM – rites honoured with several royal wreathes and a palace-ordered washing of the body. In the UK, the thinking is that certain people are expected to “do the decent thing” and stay away. I suspect that in Thailand being seen to turn up and “show respect for the deceased” is more of a factor – i.e. you just look bad if you don’t. Either way, the protests against him were completely inappropriate for the occasion.
It reminds me more of old greece tragedy. In the course of the play the protagonists, who all follow their best intentions and wisdom to achieve something good, get ever more entangled into intricate webs of interdependencies. It becomes tragic in the sense that whatever is done will contradict basic ethic values. Even more, it is exactly the success of the leading characters, which path the way towards hubris (or provocation of the gods) that can only end in tragedy.
To avoid a tragic end, the deus ex machina has been invented. Through divine intervention the whole play is lifted on a level where the doings of the mortals play a minor role. Finaly, again, harmony is brought back by the gods. Of course, this requires and is shown in auspicious acts and days. Such days are auspicious because an axis between this world and the cosmos briefly appears. What happens on such days is of a kosmic making to reinstal harmony after all the entanglements that were the script of the play.
Another important feature of such plays is the chorus commenting on what happens on stage. Are the blogs (like New Mandala) such a chorus of blind seers?
Thus, one might look whether we have something like hubris and entanglements unsolvable by mere mortals, where even good deeds have bad consequences. Furthermore, what could be the deus ex machina (certainly not Taksin as he has little divine traits) and what might be the auspicious circumstances. If the whole play has to be lifted on another level to bring back harmony, what could this be?
But, anyhow, tragedy and commedy are closly connected. Tragedy can turn into commedy and vice versa.
[…] security presence was heavy, police was afraid that a similar incident might occur as happened when Nevin Chidchob came at the first day of the rites. Nothing to speak of happened other than when Abhisit arrived some of […]
Yes, education but only to a point, and a very quickly arrived one at that!
Less said from now on in that vein no matter what the subject the better. Innuendo and personal slights have little right to be in a mature blog.
“Was the ommission of war drums and a helicopter intentional, by any chance?”. StanG makes this insinuation (#26) at a journalist – and then expects (#44) that journalist to not defend his impartiality? Bizarre……
I do find it educational to see the StanG’s of this world doing their foot-in-mouth acrobatics – but only up to a point. I hope New Mandala will decide that there has been enough of his “Repetitive ranting, unimaginative point-scoring and idle abuse” here for this particular lesson to be considered learned.
Certainly, Nick Nostitz has said all he needs to say in response to the repeated insinuations. That StanG seems set on embarrassing himself yet further is not Nick’s problem – nor is it enlightening to see this spectacle continue ad nauseam.
I’ll leave it to Nick to clarify how exactly he would have found Jatuporn, Nattawut and Veera dancing with swords – “interesting”, “worth reporting”, or not falling into “fair and realistic” category, or whatever.
The whole argument could have been ended at comment 27 if Nick simply said in the beginning “Sorry, mate, didn’t see it, would have been a great shot” instead of defending his impartiality and credentials and pointing fingers at yellows and referencing Prachatai and what not.
I’m sure Nick has hundreds of pictures from that concert that were not posted here for one reason or another. If he indeed has photos of red leaders doing a war dance, it’s a fair question why they weren’t included. Please don’t say “they don’t fit in the overall mood I was trying to portray”.
I am getting tired of your attacks on Nick Nostitz, whose impartiality and credibility in his many months of reporting and photographing events have not been challenged by anyone until you came along. And it’s now obvious that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Nick did not say or suggest that he didn’t report on those performances because they were not “interesting enough”, as you inferred (per your comment 41). When he said (comment 39) he “do[es]n’t do ‘far more interesting,’” I took that to mean that he doesn’t base his reporting on what’s “interesting,” but rather he reports what he sees.
Why don’t you leave this issue alone? Your foot is getting stuffed farther into your throat every time you add a new comment.
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Saturday red, Sunday yellow: the temperature rises again
re: StanG
I’m guessing that this is the song you’re talking about?
Saturday red, Sunday yellow: the temperature rises again
There’s also a lovely song simply called “Poo Chana” by Sek Loso. I’m sure many Thais think the country would be a lot better off with people singing the Sek Loso song, than the anathema of confrontational anthems, sung by both Red and Yellow Shirts.
Samak: Conflict to the end
Frank Lee – the Thammasat massacre was in 1976, not 1973.
And a point often not mentioned, is that in addition to the appalling massacre, amid a welter of lies, of unarmed civilians peacefully demonstrating – was the overthrow of Seri Pramoj’s government. Seri Pramoj of course, was the conservative politican who narrowly saved Thailand from being turned into a
British colony, immediately after Word War Two. His pleas to America’s Congress to prevent this through dollar diplomacy carried weight because Pramoj had refused, as Thailand’s Washington ambassador at the time of Pearl Harbour, to insanely declare war on the United States, and thereafter set up the Free Thai movement against Japanese occupation of Thailand. Pramoj received an eternally shameful “korb khun KRAP” from those he had saved, with his overthrow in the wake of Thammasat’s massacre.
Abhisit at Samak’s funeral
siammiddlepath,
Our background (UK/German in my case) is always with us – and I probably made too much of Abhisit’s (partly) UK upbringing. My apologies if I seemed to imply that he would in some way “know better” or “behave better” only because of that UK background. I did go on to say why I thought – as a Thai and the current PM – he would automatically go to the ceremony.
I think you’re too modest about your own skills! I did read dudeist’s post at BP – not much for me to disagree with there.
Saturday red, Sunday yellow: the temperature rises again
The wikithai background on the historical novel, Victor of Ten Directions, can be found on the website using р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Кр╕Щр╕░р╕кр╕┤р╕Ър╕Чр╕┤р╕и as search phrase.
Abhisit at Samak’s funeral
Are reds going to cement themselves as successors of Village Scouts and Nawapon? Why do they appear they so protective of Samak? Or are they just hijacking his funeral to continue with their political fight?
According to Pridiyathorn, Samak and Chuan were on the same debating team and won many competitions together (with Uthai Pimchaichon).
Did Chuan show up or sent a wreath?
Saturday red, Sunday yellow: the temperature rises again
According to the Nation the song itself was called “Poo Chana Sib Thit” (“Victor of the Ten Directions”). I don’t know if there’s any special meaning in the lyrics that made three red leaders choose it for their dance number. The other song they apparently sang themselves was “Lan Klong Rob” (“War Drums”).
Abhisit at Samak’s funeral
Steve,
I’m sorry but I think you over rated the UK upbringing – I think Apisit going to the service had nothing to do with it. Although it’s a bit sad as a Thai that the first thing which came to mind when you thought of the Thai PM was his elite background. Doesn’t it sound very much like when you talk of a dog or similar show animals – from his pedigree and not from his achievements? Anyway, back to the funeral, short of you being the murderer of the one you go to pay respect to, Thai culture expects that you show up as a final act of forgiveness.
I’m a Thai who grew up here without the benefit of western upbringing or education. So naturally I’m not good at critical thinking or writing. However, I’d like to ask you to read the ‘Dudeist’ comments on the neighbor site Bangkok Pundit – which actually spoke my mind except on the bits on whether Apisit should or should not have gone to the funeral. (NM I hope this reference is ok)
Abhisit at Samak’s funeral
“mythai”:
I don’t know the proper description for that thing. You see it in the image – the huge loudspeaker the police officer is carrying. I have been last year on the receiving end of such a thing mounted on a pick up truck – it gives out a tremendous high pitched noise which hurts the ears a lot.
Abhisit at Samak’s funeral
Steve, you got it all wrong. Newin and Aphisit paid last respect to Samak because it was Samak who organized the alliance of Newin and Aphisit. At the time, the People’s Power Party was split into two factions, the Gang of Four and the rest. Samak was with the Gang of Four (Newin, Chavarat the Interior Minister, Newin’s father the House Speaker, basically the Phumjai Thai Party). Samak’s wife in the picture is Charoen Pokapan employee, she brought the CP to join the Democrat Party coalition which had increased the financial support for the Democrat Party substantially. The current government was the making of Samak and his wife to a certain degree. Samak was closed with the Army Chief Anupong Paochinda. The two made a deal which gave confidence for Newin to defect from Thaksin.
Abhisit at Samak’s funeral
Err, can anyone enlighten us on what exactly a ‘portable sound gun’ is? Yes, the clue is clearly in the name but does anyone have any further details? Sonic weapons? Interesting and disturbing.
Samak: Conflict to the end
Although I found Marc Askew’s recent book review of ‘Thaksin’ by Pasuk Pongpaichit and Chris Baker (Post, Nov.23) to be fairly commendable, I take issue with his comments on the Thai judiciary’s treatment of Thaksin’s blustering, bullying, blueblood bore and former proxy PM, Samak Sundaravej.
While one may argue that the decision to prosecute may have been selective, it cannot be denied that Samak, with the brazen disregard for civilized behavior and ‘inconvenient truths’ which have characterized his long, ugly political career, well and truly had it coming. Indeed only recently, as Thaksin’s proxy PM, Samak tried to reduce the scores of brutal murders at Thammassat University in 1973 in which he himself was strongly implicated to a single accidental death. Or as PM Samak said of himself at the time, “The Prime Minister has the power to do anything.”
As to the Court’s guilty verdict and subsequent sentencing itself, it seemed to me at the time that the salient point about the Court’s verdict was that Samak had lied under oath about receiving income for conducting the his show and that it was such barefaced lies that he flung in the judges’ faces, rather than his flimsy denials re the crass political nature of the show, that were responsible for the stiff sentence he subsequently incurred.
Of course, in Samak’s defense, one might be tempted to say of him as Mr. Askew does about the big boss i.e. Thaksin himself, “As a man of no real principle, ethical or political, he has reflected the forces swirling around him.” However, to me at least, that seems rather like what the Americans laughingly refer to as the ‘Twinkie defense’.
Frank Lee.
Samak: Conflict to the end
Michael I would say the number one reason the Red-Shirts called off their rally was in deference to His Majesty The King.
No doubt the ISA was also a consideration, these two factors are not mutually exclusive. The one hopeful factor is that both sides still claim loyalty to the Monarchy.
Us farang need to appreciate just how much this reverence means – I’ve seen an Isaarn taxi driver in Bangkok, an archetypical Red-shirt, lower himself in a 45 degree angle bow
and wai in front of a statue of King Chulalongkorn, still revered as a hero-God, for freeing his Isaarn family from slavery.
Abhisit at Samak’s funeral
Let’s give Abhisit his due. Despite his (many) faults, it seems reasonable to expect that his UK upbringing would have instilled in him what’s expected at funeral ceremonies – i.e. to be as gracious as you can manage whatever the past history between you and the deceased. My understanding is that it’s not so very different in Thai culture – at least because you shouldn’t be criticising people who now can’t answer.
Newin attending? Arguably rather different from a current PM attending the rites for a former PM – rites honoured with several royal wreathes and a palace-ordered washing of the body. In the UK, the thinking is that certain people are expected to “do the decent thing” and stay away. I suspect that in Thailand being seen to turn up and “show respect for the deceased” is more of a factor – i.e. you just look bad if you don’t. Either way, the protests against him were completely inappropriate for the occasion.
Thitinan on Thailand’s labour pains
It reminds me more of old greece tragedy. In the course of the play the protagonists, who all follow their best intentions and wisdom to achieve something good, get ever more entangled into intricate webs of interdependencies. It becomes tragic in the sense that whatever is done will contradict basic ethic values. Even more, it is exactly the success of the leading characters, which path the way towards hubris (or provocation of the gods) that can only end in tragedy.
To avoid a tragic end, the deus ex machina has been invented. Through divine intervention the whole play is lifted on a level where the doings of the mortals play a minor role. Finaly, again, harmony is brought back by the gods. Of course, this requires and is shown in auspicious acts and days. Such days are auspicious because an axis between this world and the cosmos briefly appears. What happens on such days is of a kosmic making to reinstal harmony after all the entanglements that were the script of the play.
Another important feature of such plays is the chorus commenting on what happens on stage. Are the blogs (like New Mandala) such a chorus of blind seers?
Thus, one might look whether we have something like hubris and entanglements unsolvable by mere mortals, where even good deeds have bad consequences. Furthermore, what could be the deus ex machina (certainly not Taksin as he has little divine traits) and what might be the auspicious circumstances. If the whole play has to be lifted on another level to bring back harmony, what could this be?
But, anyhow, tragedy and commedy are closly connected. Tragedy can turn into commedy and vice versa.
Samak: Conflict to the end
[…] security presence was heavy, police was afraid that a similar incident might occur as happened when Nevin Chidchob came at the first day of the rites. Nothing to speak of happened other than when Abhisit arrived some of […]
Saturday red, Sunday yellow: the temperature rises again
Yes, education but only to a point, and a very quickly arrived one at that!
Less said from now on in that vein no matter what the subject the better. Innuendo and personal slights have little right to be in a mature blog.
Saturday red, Sunday yellow: the temperature rises again
“Was the ommission of war drums and a helicopter intentional, by any chance?”. StanG makes this insinuation (#26) at a journalist – and then expects (#44) that journalist to not defend his impartiality? Bizarre……
I do find it educational to see the StanG’s of this world doing their foot-in-mouth acrobatics – but only up to a point. I hope New Mandala will decide that there has been enough of his “Repetitive ranting, unimaginative point-scoring and idle abuse” here for this particular lesson to be considered learned.
Certainly, Nick Nostitz has said all he needs to say in response to the repeated insinuations. That StanG seems set on embarrassing himself yet further is not Nick’s problem – nor is it enlightening to see this spectacle continue ad nauseam.
Saturday red, Sunday yellow: the temperature rises again
I’ll leave it to Nick to clarify how exactly he would have found Jatuporn, Nattawut and Veera dancing with swords – “interesting”, “worth reporting”, or not falling into “fair and realistic” category, or whatever.
The whole argument could have been ended at comment 27 if Nick simply said in the beginning “Sorry, mate, didn’t see it, would have been a great shot” instead of defending his impartiality and credentials and pointing fingers at yellows and referencing Prachatai and what not.
I’m sure Nick has hundreds of pictures from that concert that were not posted here for one reason or another. If he indeed has photos of red leaders doing a war dance, it’s a fair question why they weren’t included. Please don’t say “they don’t fit in the overall mood I was trying to portray”.
Saturday red, Sunday yellow: the temperature rises again
StanG:
I am getting tired of your attacks on Nick Nostitz, whose impartiality and credibility in his many months of reporting and photographing events have not been challenged by anyone until you came along. And it’s now obvious that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Nick did not say or suggest that he didn’t report on those performances because they were not “interesting enough”, as you inferred (per your comment 41). When he said (comment 39) he “do[es]n’t do ‘far more interesting,’” I took that to mean that he doesn’t base his reporting on what’s “interesting,” but rather he reports what he sees.
Why don’t you leave this issue alone? Your foot is getting stuffed farther into your throat every time you add a new comment.