Very interesting comments. All I can say is that I’m open to hear yet more. It IS really true that Burmese colloquial sayings can be brutal. I’d not heard that one, but have others equally blunt. I hope others chime in with their own favorites!
These beautiful displays are facile, banal totally empty of meaning . They show the poverty of Thai culture to connect with real common peoples inequalities and injustice
You are reading too much into it. ‘Achauk’ simply means ‘dry stuff’, and it does indicate the lack of natural moisture characteristic of the female genital ready in acceptance ( in heat if you like). That’s how I’ve always understood it, growing up in Burma.
Burmese can be painfully blunt in the use of language. Ever heard of the Burmese expression ‘ once a beggar has a full stomach, he gets an erection’? It aptly describes the obsession with sex in a well-fed society such as the West – sensual pleasures next and foremost once you don’t have to worry about where the next meal is coming from.
Srithanonchai I don’t see the problem you mention. These are just mere worldly matters and can easily be solved. I see two possibilities:
1. His majesty the King will live on in the institution of the monarchy. Is this viable? Do the people love the abstract monarchy as much as they love the king?
2. The petty material matters you cite can easily be taken care of by a worldly representative. Isn’ t the pope such a worldly representative of a spiritual force?
Are you suggesting that HM King Bhumipol will become the first monarch who is not based on a worldly bodily presence but merely on a spiritual kind of representation and attachment? That’s an interesting indea for the solution of Thailand’s current political and ideological problems. But I am not sure whether it is practical. After all, the king has to sign many documents.
Anyway, here is another indicative quote, this time from Chai-anan Samudavanija (ASTV Phuchatkan, 26 October 2009):
“The thing that would create the worst situation is the change that would make Thai society lose its institution that has been a force of trust for the people. That there have been attacks on General Prem constitute indirect actions regarding the shaking of the national institution. That Gen. Prem went as far as using the word ‘betraying the nation’ when Gen. Chavalit got himself involved with the Phuea Thai Party can be regarded as the open beginning of a war between those who oppose the ammatayathipattai and those who support Gen. Prem, who is the chairperson of the Privy Council.
Increasingly, the conflict will shift from support of Thaksin towards an opposition against the political system that has the king as head of state. And it is this conflict that will create unprecedented divisions in Thai society.”
In sum: Thai politics will be fraught with high risk for the next two to five years. Given the central existential importance that the ammart accord to the monarchy for the very survival of the nation, one might well assume that they are prepared to counter any such crisis with strong repressive measures. This would be a tragedy for the Thai people and the limited democracy they have achieved so far. Obviously, it will also fundamentally affect Thailand’s investment climate, and thus her economic wellbeing.
I’m fascinated by the use of the word ’tissue’ in Burmese gay slang. From my understanding, a ’tissue’ is a mildly derogatory term used to describe a one-night stand. Like you use a tissue to blow your nose and then throw it away, the same as with a one-night stand who you never see/meet again.
It goes further. A silver tissue is someone who you meet with for sex from time to time; a gold tissue is a keeper. Even a gold tissue, however, is still a tissue, not equivalent to a partner.
Before Thaksin era Chiang Mai was a Democrat stronghold and even many MPs defected Dems still have strong support there, just not enough to match pro-Thaksin parties in elections.
In the latest survey Abhisit got 15.3% in the North – just little less than 17.4% in Bangkok.
In recent by-elections in Isan PTP won easily, but about a third of people voted for BJT, too.
If you want to find a monolithic region, it’s the South, the rest of the country is rather diverse.
Both of the above are correct.
There is no more Thailand – it has broken into two.
Chiang Mai – Lanna – and Isaarn, against Bangkok, The Central Plains, and Southern Thailand, but not Pattani.
Isaarn – and Lanna – are now almost separate STATES, under the common monarchy.
Isaarn and Lanna now have separate, independent armies and police, in everything but name.
There are four issues here:
1. The end of the physical body does not mean the end of all! Only if, like many secular western minds do, a person is reduced to the body. If we follow a less narrow minded view, even if a physical body may die, this does not mean that the person ├нs dead?
2. All religions and in particular Buddhism point out that the end of the physical body can as well be understood as a moment of liberation: of liberation from the bondages of the soul with the material everyday life. Consequently, the end of the body is only an intermediate stage. Especially if life was formed around doing good deeds without personal interests, it means that suffering in this world is rewarded by eternity.
3. From this follows that his majesty the King will not die, in fact, can not die. He might leave this world, but certainly remains in the hearts and minds of all Thai people.
4. This poses a problem though: Can there be a successor?
Technically, this is correct. Yet this makes for a curious observation: How would the specific details of male inter-sexual relations become the dominant noun by which G/T individuals are known among the broad population? Would the common person be happy to say “Oh, yes, they are called “dryness” because they don’t use lubricant during sex”? Somehow, most especially in the hyper-conservative social and language context of Burma/Myanmar, I doubt it.
The notion of “dryness” as a noun equating to “barren” makes much more sense in the common and discursive use of terms. It’s certainly been what I’ve been repeatedly told. The idiomatic translation as “dryness” to be “dry flower” is clearly not exact, and, as you point out, not even linguistically correct. Yet, I’ve heard this from multiple sources over the course of a decade’s exploration. The exuberant cross-dressers are sometimes even called “flowers” or “flower men” (other phrases I have heard repeatedly). Perhaps this shows more about the POVs of respective informants than of those being so described?
Frankly, I didn’t and certainly don’t mean to raise this into a contentious issue, as the search for more broadly acceptable – and self-selected – terms of identity continues. This older term is among the most dominant of those in common use, so it is interesting to compare notes on its origins.
I hope others continue the exploration. There is still much to learn.
Actually, “dry flower” in Burmese would be ban chauk. This would thus not be a literal translation of achauk. With the a prefix on the adjective chauk (dry) the word achauk is a noun, something like “dryness”. The way it was explained to me, the term derives from the fact that for MSM relations, sex is conducted in a manner that is not naturally lubricated.
In 2000, a young American intern who had requested to work with one of our MSM projects in Myanmar asked to meet me in our Yangon office. After a brief chat, he became very intense and said he had to ask me a “most serious question.” The question was whether I would “be upset” with him as it was his intent to “introduce gay culture to Myanmar”. After a suitable moment of stunned silence, I collapsed in a fit of laughter.
A similar context-free worldview diminishes the otherwise valuable contribution of this piece: that slang, particularly among sexual sub-cultures, is always changing and is worthy of study to better understand emergent risks, strengths and vulnerabilities. The contribution seems to suggest that, before their arrival, GLBT in Myanmar were unaware of the amazing wonders of, well, being GLBT. The “before us they didn’t know about any of this” (group sex, for example) tone suggests that they didn’t look beyond the gang with whom they were hanging out.
Of course, the young of each generation think they invented sex and find it difficult to imagine that their elders were ever as young, frisky or as adventurous as they imagine themselves. While the contribution to observations about the discursive economy among certain groups of GLBT in Myanmar is excellent, it suffers from this affectation.
As with all identity-related terms, the nature of stigma is relative to the context in which the term is deployed. Any of the terms/labels can be and often are appropriated and re-deployed in ways meant to subvert dominant attitudes and affirm self-identity. The coining of new terms also occurs with each new cohort (as with the historical “cake” example).
While aware of several of the famous hangouts, I had not heard the title phrase, nor the “being England” – which is simply fabulous given the historical context of relationships with England.
The term “a chauk” is more often translated as “dry flower”, rather than just “dry”, and refers to the barren nature of the individual. As several informants have explained to me, they may “be” women, but they cannot breed. Thus, the term “dry”. Just FYI.
The discussion of specific cultural code markers, such as magazine titles, is yet another excellent contribution. OTOH, the wider code of social respect due to elders does belong to traditional Burmese (and many other Asian cultures) culture. The struggle against such codes is timeless.
I do hope that these researchers return/continue to explore the rich culture(s) of gender identities in Myanmar.
I am not sure what “nonsense” of the Thai elite Srithanonchai alludes to.
That the Thais, elite and poor alike, revere HMK Bhumibhol is NOT nonsense.
What “thinking” do Srithanonchai wish the Thais (elite or otherwise) to get started on?
Nothing has changed at NM, I can see (after months of my deliberate absence). Despondency rules at NM blogs just because Thailand got rid of Thaksin . . . and thank you for that if I may say so from my personal point of view, mind you.
I wasnt slinging off at the police translation prowess, more I was wondering if someone tells them to get someone for lese majeste whether they would let a comma get in the way of an arrest
my reading is that the comma means that the phrase applies to Thaksins opponents rather than the throne (unless they are related of course..)
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Beyond brittle Burma boycotts
Sanctions and boycotts don’t work unless you have 100% participation.
ALot of countries made noises about boycotting Burma, but then engaged in secret, back room deals.
Going to Pagan: Gay slang in Burma
Very interesting comments. All I can say is that I’m open to hear yet more. It IS really true that Burmese colloquial sayings can be brutal. I’d not heard that one, but have others equally blunt. I hope others chime in with their own favorites!
End of the rains retreat in northeast Thailand: Political commentary on a boat
These beautiful displays are facile, banal totally empty of meaning . They show the poverty of Thai culture to connect with real common peoples inequalities and injustice
Going to Pagan: Gay slang in Burma
Owen
You are reading too much into it. ‘Achauk’ simply means ‘dry stuff’, and it does indicate the lack of natural moisture characteristic of the female genital ready in acceptance ( in heat if you like). That’s how I’ve always understood it, growing up in Burma.
Burmese can be painfully blunt in the use of language. Ever heard of the Burmese expression ‘ once a beggar has a full stomach, he gets an erection’? It aptly describes the obsession with sex in a well-fed society such as the West – sensual pleasures next and foremost once you don’t have to worry about where the next meal is coming from.
More on King Bhumibol’s health
Srithanonchai I don’t see the problem you mention. These are just mere worldly matters and can easily be solved. I see two possibilities:
1. His majesty the King will live on in the institution of the monarchy. Is this viable? Do the people love the abstract monarchy as much as they love the king?
2. The petty material matters you cite can easily be taken care of by a worldly representative. Isn’ t the pope such a worldly representative of a spiritual force?
More on King Bhumibol’s health
HRK:
Are you suggesting that HM King Bhumipol will become the first monarch who is not based on a worldly bodily presence but merely on a spiritual kind of representation and attachment? That’s an interesting indea for the solution of Thailand’s current political and ideological problems. But I am not sure whether it is practical. After all, the king has to sign many documents.
Anyway, here is another indicative quote, this time from Chai-anan Samudavanija (ASTV Phuchatkan, 26 October 2009):
“The thing that would create the worst situation is the change that would make Thai society lose its institution that has been a force of trust for the people. That there have been attacks on General Prem constitute indirect actions regarding the shaking of the national institution. That Gen. Prem went as far as using the word ‘betraying the nation’ when Gen. Chavalit got himself involved with the Phuea Thai Party can be regarded as the open beginning of a war between those who oppose the ammatayathipattai and those who support Gen. Prem, who is the chairperson of the Privy Council.
Increasingly, the conflict will shift from support of Thaksin towards an opposition against the political system that has the king as head of state. And it is this conflict that will create unprecedented divisions in Thai society.”
In sum: Thai politics will be fraught with high risk for the next two to five years. Given the central existential importance that the ammart accord to the monarchy for the very survival of the nation, one might well assume that they are prepared to counter any such crisis with strong repressive measures. This would be a tragedy for the Thai people and the limited democracy they have achieved so far. Obviously, it will also fundamentally affect Thailand’s investment climate, and thus her economic wellbeing.
Going to Pagan: Gay slang in Burma
Tissues:
I’m fascinated by the use of the word ’tissue’ in Burmese gay slang. From my understanding, a ’tissue’ is a mildly derogatory term used to describe a one-night stand. Like you use a tissue to blow your nose and then throw it away, the same as with a one-night stand who you never see/meet again.
It goes further. A silver tissue is someone who you meet with for sex from time to time; a gold tissue is a keeper. Even a gold tissue, however, is still a tissue, not equivalent to a partner.
Thailand’s ailing monarch
Before Thaksin era Chiang Mai was a Democrat stronghold and even many MPs defected Dems still have strong support there, just not enough to match pro-Thaksin parties in elections.
In the latest survey Abhisit got 15.3% in the North – just little less than 17.4% in Bangkok.
In recent by-elections in Isan PTP won easily, but about a third of people voted for BJT, too.
If you want to find a monolithic region, it’s the South, the rest of the country is rather diverse.
Thailand’s ailing monarch
Both of the above are correct.
There is no more Thailand – it has broken into two.
Chiang Mai – Lanna – and Isaarn, against Bangkok, The Central Plains, and Southern Thailand, but not Pattani.
Isaarn – and Lanna – are now almost separate STATES, under the common monarchy.
Isaarn and Lanna now have separate, independent armies and police, in everything but name.
China’s 60th anniversary from the margins
Good to see New Mandala devoting space to China – the ultimate decider of Thailand’s fate, more than America, these days.
More on King Bhumibol’s health
There are four issues here:
1. The end of the physical body does not mean the end of all! Only if, like many secular western minds do, a person is reduced to the body. If we follow a less narrow minded view, even if a physical body may die, this does not mean that the person ├нs dead?
2. All religions and in particular Buddhism point out that the end of the physical body can as well be understood as a moment of liberation: of liberation from the bondages of the soul with the material everyday life. Consequently, the end of the body is only an intermediate stage. Especially if life was formed around doing good deeds without personal interests, it means that suffering in this world is rewarded by eternity.
3. From this follows that his majesty the King will not die, in fact, can not die. He might leave this world, but certainly remains in the hearts and minds of all Thai people.
4. This poses a problem though: Can there be a successor?
Going to Pagan: Gay slang in Burma
Technically, this is correct. Yet this makes for a curious observation: How would the specific details of male inter-sexual relations become the dominant noun by which G/T individuals are known among the broad population? Would the common person be happy to say “Oh, yes, they are called “dryness” because they don’t use lubricant during sex”? Somehow, most especially in the hyper-conservative social and language context of Burma/Myanmar, I doubt it.
The notion of “dryness” as a noun equating to “barren” makes much more sense in the common and discursive use of terms. It’s certainly been what I’ve been repeatedly told. The idiomatic translation as “dryness” to be “dry flower” is clearly not exact, and, as you point out, not even linguistically correct. Yet, I’ve heard this from multiple sources over the course of a decade’s exploration. The exuberant cross-dressers are sometimes even called “flowers” or “flower men” (other phrases I have heard repeatedly). Perhaps this shows more about the POVs of respective informants than of those being so described?
Frankly, I didn’t and certainly don’t mean to raise this into a contentious issue, as the search for more broadly acceptable – and self-selected – terms of identity continues. This older term is among the most dominant of those in common use, so it is interesting to compare notes on its origins.
I hope others continue the exploration. There is still much to learn.
More on King Bhumibol’s health
Perhaps, Vichai, because deceiving oneself (and others) might lead to a rude awakening?
Going to Pagan: Gay slang in Burma
Actually, “dry flower” in Burmese would be ban chauk. This would thus not be a literal translation of achauk. With the a prefix on the adjective chauk (dry) the word achauk is a noun, something like “dryness”. The way it was explained to me, the term derives from the fact that for MSM relations, sex is conducted in a manner that is not naturally lubricated.
China’s 60th anniversary from the margins
interesting indeed, many thanks for this catherine..!
Going to Pagan: Gay slang in Burma
Going to Pagan
In 2000, a young American intern who had requested to work with one of our MSM projects in Myanmar asked to meet me in our Yangon office. After a brief chat, he became very intense and said he had to ask me a “most serious question.” The question was whether I would “be upset” with him as it was his intent to “introduce gay culture to Myanmar”. After a suitable moment of stunned silence, I collapsed in a fit of laughter.
A similar context-free worldview diminishes the otherwise valuable contribution of this piece: that slang, particularly among sexual sub-cultures, is always changing and is worthy of study to better understand emergent risks, strengths and vulnerabilities. The contribution seems to suggest that, before their arrival, GLBT in Myanmar were unaware of the amazing wonders of, well, being GLBT. The “before us they didn’t know about any of this” (group sex, for example) tone suggests that they didn’t look beyond the gang with whom they were hanging out.
Of course, the young of each generation think they invented sex and find it difficult to imagine that their elders were ever as young, frisky or as adventurous as they imagine themselves. While the contribution to observations about the discursive economy among certain groups of GLBT in Myanmar is excellent, it suffers from this affectation.
As with all identity-related terms, the nature of stigma is relative to the context in which the term is deployed. Any of the terms/labels can be and often are appropriated and re-deployed in ways meant to subvert dominant attitudes and affirm self-identity. The coining of new terms also occurs with each new cohort (as with the historical “cake” example).
While aware of several of the famous hangouts, I had not heard the title phrase, nor the “being England” – which is simply fabulous given the historical context of relationships with England.
The term “a chauk” is more often translated as “dry flower”, rather than just “dry”, and refers to the barren nature of the individual. As several informants have explained to me, they may “be” women, but they cannot breed. Thus, the term “dry”. Just FYI.
The discussion of specific cultural code markers, such as magazine titles, is yet another excellent contribution. OTOH, the wider code of social respect due to elders does belong to traditional Burmese (and many other Asian cultures) culture. The struggle against such codes is timeless.
I do hope that these researchers return/continue to explore the rich culture(s) of gender identities in Myanmar.
More on King Bhumibol’s health
Why should I Srithanonchai? (discard my dreams)
More on King Bhumibol’s health
Welcome back Vichai N! As we can see, you still refuse to leave the shell of your ideological dream world…
More on King Bhumibol’s health
I am not sure what “nonsense” of the Thai elite Srithanonchai alludes to.
That the Thais, elite and poor alike, revere HMK Bhumibhol is NOT nonsense.
What “thinking” do Srithanonchai wish the Thais (elite or otherwise) to get started on?
Nothing has changed at NM, I can see (after months of my deliberate absence). Despondency rules at NM blogs just because Thailand got rid of Thaksin . . . and thank you for that if I may say so from my personal point of view, mind you.
Thongchai on Thailand’s transition
Nick… thanks for the response
I wasnt slinging off at the police translation prowess, more I was wondering if someone tells them to get someone for lese majeste whether they would let a comma get in the way of an arrest
my reading is that the comma means that the phrase applies to Thaksins opponents rather than the throne (unless they are related of course..)