Pre the 2006 coup Thailand Amnesty International openly courted the PAD, with senior Thai AI people appearing on stage at PAD demos.
For a branch of AI to have been anywhere near a group whose avowed aim was a military coup and suspension of democracy is flabbergasting.
Secondly, the Amnesty office in London made the Thailand branch withdraw a statement in late 2008 from their website which supported the PAD. This is the same PAD other human rights groups were declaring as “fascist” at this time.
Thirdly, Ben Zawacki, seems to be very proud of his secretive discussions and connections with the Thai elite.
Yet, these connections have produced nothing substantive – political oppression is growing, freedom of speech is disappearing and executions have recently begun again.
Bizarrely, AI criticised the secrecy of Da Torpedo’s trial but then seemed to have colluded with this secrecy by not even mentioning the outcome of the trial (a draconian 18year prison sentence)!
Amnesty’s regional credibility is on the line – if human rights are seen to be trampled on in Thailand – a Western ally – why on earth should Burma etc listen to anyone? Da Torpedo’s imprisonment is as bad as anything in Burma and needs to be roundly and completely condemned by human rights activists and groups everywhere in the world.
1). Did the Government use appropriate procedure to dissolve the protest?
No, the army personnel was deployed instead of riot police.
2). Why?
Because Abhisit didn’t trust the cops.
3). How did they do?
They used the M-16 and other firearms, shooting at the people.
4). The reaction?
Thai public was brain-washed by media again. The point is not how the red-shirt or whoever-wearing-red, did burn the bus, but it is why the Government ordered the army to drive out the tank on the road at first place? To show who is big? To scare off the red-shirt?
5). Thaksin’s behind?
Not at all. It’s the people who were angry at Thai double standard behavior.
I agree with Taro, the red shirts are a mixed bunch there are Royalist in there too. What they all have in common is they all want real democracy not PAD/Abhisit version of democracy.
AI’s website has this headline from Sept. 1: “Sri Lanka jails journalist for 20 years for exercising his right to freedom of expression”, and this from Aug. 11 (on the AI Thailand website): “Daw Aung San Suu Kyi’s new sentence ‘shameful’ ” – quoting AI’s Secretary-General.
About Da Torpedo, AI is silent. It is not only strange, it is suspicious.
but for consistency of your position please use the language you have just used for Thaksin also, individually at length, for every Thai Prime Minister from Pibun to Abhisit as there were and are atrocities committed in Thailand (by the military) throughout this period.
Why single out Thaksin for special treatment compared to say Pibun, Sarit, Thanom, Krappy (did he apologise when Sarayud stepped on the dead and dying protesters), etc, etc and Abhisit (how many Rohingas died at sea? did Abhisit repudiate the actions of the military? did Abhist in fact support the actions of the military?)
Mungo: If you had read holocaust literature (not the holocaust denial literature) you would know better than to make the kind of comparisons you have.
Your comment on my not absolving Thaksin of reprehensible actions suggests that you don’t get the point. I was making a point about the neglect of human rights and the violent use of the state’s repressive forces being something beyond one person and being about the ruling elites more generally and over time. Thailand’s governments and the leaders of its major repressive agencies have regularly abused human rights and killed people. Arguably, this has been the main role of the Thai military and the police are worse.
The same issue is taken up at Political Prisoners in Thailand. Their conclusion is: “AI should be ashamed of its position in Thailand on this issue. Amnesty International is hindering human rights, not helping them.” I agree.
The local AI chapter had been taken over by PAD people at one time. Maybe they continue to control it at that level. But then we have Zawacki’s comments, suggesting a more systemic problem for AI.
AI’s silent position may have made some sense in cases where a pardon was likely or at least possible, eg Harry Nicolaides’s and the Jufer case. Allowing the Thais to release Harry in their own good time, in a face-saving way, appeared to work … in the end. Whether a more vociferous approach would have been quicker or slower, or unsuccessful, is anyone’s guess.
But what is the chance of a pardon now for the recent unfortunate Thais convicted of LM ? Have Thais been pardoned in the past ? I don’t even know. If not, the point of silence as a strategy is moot.
As it stands, many international voices (media, governments) appear guilty of a double standard – what is unacceptable for non-Thais is not worth complaining about when Thais are the victims.
And from the BKK AI rep …
“But you have an institution here that has played an important role in the protection of human rights in Thailand … We can see why the monarchy needs to be protected.”
Maybe this obsequious position is part of the “soft” strategy. But for anyone setting an asian studies exam in the near future, can I suggest …. “The monarchy has played an important role in the protection of human rights in Thailand. Debate”.
Lese majeste has another function for the palace..By enacting strict penalty, with the king able to pardon (which he often does), the king and the palace get to show their almighty benovelence, compassion, and pity for those Thais who have been “misguided”, “misinformed”, and who lack the “proper socio-cultural etiquette”. It is like a three part play: Act I: Misguided Thai commits lese majeste; Act II: the court hands down lenghty prison sentence; Act III: happy ending when the enlightened, benevolent king pardons the “lost soul”, which leaves the audience in awe of the king’s greatness–his power is reaffirmed.
Now it is debatable as to whether this outweighs other costs.
“None of this is to absolve Thaksin of his actions in these reprehensible actions during the time he was in charge.”
It’s amazing how many times I’ve read little disclaimers such as this at the bottom of internet posts regarding Thaksin’s record in office. The “albeit with a poor record on human rights” is the classic. Did adding it make you feel less uncomfortable with what you’d written?
I’m comfortable with my assertion that David Brown’s stated views are akin to holocaust revisionism. My understanding is that he is attempting to “absolve” Thaksin of guilt in this regard. In my view any attempt to whitewash an individual who was instrumental in the murder and torture of thousands is vile & repulsive. If I have misunderstood David, and he does believe that Thaksin was culpable to a significant degree in the abuses committed during his tenure I will gladly apologize.
Tom, My E-mail is [email protected] like the name implies its not my main e-mail so it might be a bit before I check it but i’d love to hear from you.
-James-
I have no reason to doubt that Thais are learning fast these days when internet and other channels of communication are handily available. Changes are inevitable, free speech will eventually prevail in Thailand as well. What had taken decades in the former Warsaw pact countries would take here perhaps several years. Thai people who work for their daily bowl of rice should not be afraid of their own shadows.
Well worth noting however, Ralph, that the old-timer is probably far more likely than Taro to show compassion. Which makes a huge mockery of Taro’s hardline stance. In fact, I don’t have much confidence in the institution either. Indeed, why should I have confidence in something is as human and as fallible as the rest of us? Indeed, so fallible that every General Tom, Dick and Harry with a gun, a goon squad and an assumption of grandeur finds it to be the ultimate excuse for bad business as usual.
I think you’re missing the point of the graph, Monger. It is not about the absolute amount of food production but the amount of food production relative to other activities.
you said it would only be an issue to comment on what the King had done against Darunee from inside Thailand
but, note that the Thai law does not differentiate whether the LM “offence” is committed in Thailand or not
its unlikely that an attempted extradition from outside Thailand would succeed but if someone commits an LM “offence” outside Thailand (and it is noticed) then they should be careful about visiting Thailand as they could be arrested while visiting
The inclusion of the graph serves little purpose. Even in the poorest of countries, people need to eat and the creation and consumption of nutrition is the most basic of organized human activities. Were it otherwise the intercept would be at (0,0) because everyone would be dead of starvation and nothing of value could be produced.
thanks for your contribution … I confess I was not watching Thailands news so closely in those days so your more informed comments are helpful in confirming my instinctual feel for the real situation at the time
Mungo #74
wrt the involvement of the police in the atrocities I wasnt being careful, its just that it seems to me its the retired (privy councillors) and active military that (literally) call the shots in Thailand
and also I understand that the Border Patrol Police were part of the events and my reading indicates that they are an element of the military rather than police per se.
I am open to be educated further in the relationship of the police and military and whether the police have some or any independence of action in these (ongoing) sordid events
wrt Thaksins involvement, I believe he was rightly attempting to bring both the police and military under control of his civilian democratic government and his efforts were a motivator for the 2006 coup
for stable democratic government in Thailand it will be necessary to eliminate the involvement of the serving military in business and reduce them to subservience to the orders of the government. This will require the mass of the Thai people to reject myths built up over many years by retired military operating under cover of “protection of the monarchy”
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Amnesty’s silence on lese majeste
Here are a few emails addresses to begin petitioning AI – maybe New Mandala could start one up –
[email protected]
[email protected],
[email protected]
[email protected]
And let’s get a few things right here –
Pre the 2006 coup Thailand Amnesty International openly courted the PAD, with senior Thai AI people appearing on stage at PAD demos.
For a branch of AI to have been anywhere near a group whose avowed aim was a military coup and suspension of democracy is flabbergasting.
Secondly, the Amnesty office in London made the Thailand branch withdraw a statement in late 2008 from their website which supported the PAD. This is the same PAD other human rights groups were declaring as “fascist” at this time.
Thirdly, Ben Zawacki, seems to be very proud of his secretive discussions and connections with the Thai elite.
Yet, these connections have produced nothing substantive – political oppression is growing, freedom of speech is disappearing and executions have recently begun again.
Bizarrely, AI criticised the secrecy of Da Torpedo’s trial but then seemed to have colluded with this secrecy by not even mentioning the outcome of the trial (a draconian 18year prison sentence)!
Amnesty’s regional credibility is on the line – if human rights are seen to be trampled on in Thailand – a Western ally – why on earth should Burma etc listen to anyone? Da Torpedo’s imprisonment is as bad as anything in Burma and needs to be roundly and completely condemned by human rights activists and groups everywhere in the world.
Shot at Din Daeng
1). Did the Government use appropriate procedure to dissolve the protest?
No, the army personnel was deployed instead of riot police.
2). Why?
Because Abhisit didn’t trust the cops.
3). How did they do?
They used the M-16 and other firearms, shooting at the people.
4). The reaction?
Thai public was brain-washed by media again. The point is not how the red-shirt or whoever-wearing-red, did burn the bus, but it is why the Government ordered the army to drive out the tank on the road at first place? To show who is big? To scare off the red-shirt?
5). Thaksin’s behind?
Not at all. It’s the people who were angry at Thai double standard behavior.
And that is the root of the problem.
Thailand’s royal disgrace
I agree with Taro, the red shirts are a mixed bunch there are Royalist in there too. What they all have in common is they all want real democracy not PAD/Abhisit version of democracy.
Amnesty’s silence on lese majeste
AI’s website has this headline from Sept. 1: “Sri Lanka jails journalist for 20 years for exercising his right to freedom of expression”, and this from Aug. 11 (on the AI Thailand website): “Daw Aung San Suu Kyi’s new sentence ‘shameful’ ” – quoting AI’s Secretary-General.
About Da Torpedo, AI is silent. It is not only strange, it is suspicious.
Thailand’s royal disgrace
Mungo #81
relax, there is no need to apologise
but for consistency of your position please use the language you have just used for Thaksin also, individually at length, for every Thai Prime Minister from Pibun to Abhisit as there were and are atrocities committed in Thailand (by the military) throughout this period.
Why single out Thaksin for special treatment compared to say Pibun, Sarit, Thanom, Krappy (did he apologise when Sarayud stepped on the dead and dying protesters), etc, etc and Abhisit (how many Rohingas died at sea? did Abhisit repudiate the actions of the military? did Abhist in fact support the actions of the military?)
Why?
Is it receiving some kind of pre-school special agent training?
PADnda 00555 -seeing red-
Thailand’s royal disgrace
Mungo: If you had read holocaust literature (not the holocaust denial literature) you would know better than to make the kind of comparisons you have.
Your comment on my not absolving Thaksin of reprehensible actions suggests that you don’t get the point. I was making a point about the neglect of human rights and the violent use of the state’s repressive forces being something beyond one person and being about the ruling elites more generally and over time. Thailand’s governments and the leaders of its major repressive agencies have regularly abused human rights and killed people. Arguably, this has been the main role of the Thai military and the police are worse.
Amnesty’s silence on lese majeste
The same issue is taken up at Political Prisoners in Thailand. Their conclusion is: “AI should be ashamed of its position in Thailand on this issue. Amnesty International is hindering human rights, not helping them.” I agree.
The local AI chapter had been taken over by PAD people at one time. Maybe they continue to control it at that level. But then we have Zawacki’s comments, suggesting a more systemic problem for AI.
Amnesty’s silence on lese majeste
AI’s silent position may have made some sense in cases where a pardon was likely or at least possible, eg Harry Nicolaides’s and the Jufer case. Allowing the Thais to release Harry in their own good time, in a face-saving way, appeared to work … in the end. Whether a more vociferous approach would have been quicker or slower, or unsuccessful, is anyone’s guess.
But what is the chance of a pardon now for the recent unfortunate Thais convicted of LM ? Have Thais been pardoned in the past ? I don’t even know. If not, the point of silence as a strategy is moot.
As it stands, many international voices (media, governments) appear guilty of a double standard – what is unacceptable for non-Thais is not worth complaining about when Thais are the victims.
And from the BKK AI rep …
“But you have an institution here that has played an important role in the protection of human rights in Thailand … We can see why the monarchy needs to be protected.”
Maybe this obsequious position is part of the “soft” strategy. But for anyone setting an asian studies exam in the near future, can I suggest …. “The monarchy has played an important role in the protection of human rights in Thailand. Debate”.
Amnesty’s silence on lese majeste
“most effective response” > Can Mr Zawacki please inform us what the concrete effects of this AI strategy have been to date? Thank yo.
Amnesty’s silence on lese majeste
It is time for all the international groups or organizations to look deeply into Thailand before this country is turned into another Myanmar.
Thailand and lese majeste: In Thai
Lese majeste has another function for the palace..By enacting strict penalty, with the king able to pardon (which he often does), the king and the palace get to show their almighty benovelence, compassion, and pity for those Thais who have been “misguided”, “misinformed”, and who lack the “proper socio-cultural etiquette”. It is like a three part play: Act I: Misguided Thai commits lese majeste; Act II: the court hands down lenghty prison sentence; Act III: happy ending when the enlightened, benevolent king pardons the “lost soul”, which leaves the audience in awe of the king’s greatness–his power is reaffirmed.
Now it is debatable as to whether this outweighs other costs.
Thailand’s royal disgrace
Ralph Kramden #76
“None of this is to absolve Thaksin of his actions in these reprehensible actions during the time he was in charge.”
It’s amazing how many times I’ve read little disclaimers such as this at the bottom of internet posts regarding Thaksin’s record in office. The “albeit with a poor record on human rights” is the classic. Did adding it make you feel less uncomfortable with what you’d written?
I’m comfortable with my assertion that David Brown’s stated views are akin to holocaust revisionism. My understanding is that he is attempting to “absolve” Thaksin of guilt in this regard. In my view any attempt to whitewash an individual who was instrumental in the murder and torture of thousands is vile & repulsive. If I have misunderstood David, and he does believe that Thaksin was culpable to a significant degree in the abuses committed during his tenure I will gladly apologize.
I assume you have read the following article before-
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/type,COUNTRYREP,HRW,THA,412efec42,0.html
Or maybe you couldn’t be bothered, or just didn’t want to know?
Have you ever read any articles on holocaust revisionism by the way? They make fascinating reading- http://www.codoh.com/info/infoihr/ihr2problem.html .
A glossy feature on Thomas Bleming
Tom, My E-mail is [email protected] like the name implies its not my main e-mail so it might be a bit before I check it but i’d love to hear from you.
-James-
Thailand’s royal disgrace
I have no reason to doubt that Thais are learning fast these days when internet and other channels of communication are handily available. Changes are inevitable, free speech will eventually prevail in Thailand as well. What had taken decades in the former Warsaw pact countries would take here perhaps several years. Thai people who work for their daily bowl of rice should not be afraid of their own shadows.
Thailand’s royal disgrace
Well worth noting however, Ralph, that the old-timer is probably far more likely than Taro to show compassion. Which makes a huge mockery of Taro’s hardline stance. In fact, I don’t have much confidence in the institution either. Indeed, why should I have confidence in something is as human and as fallible as the rest of us? Indeed, so fallible that every General Tom, Dick and Harry with a gun, a goon squad and an assumption of grandeur finds it to be the ultimate excuse for bad business as usual.
Mega projects and Lao transitions
I think you’re missing the point of the graph, Monger. It is not about the absolute amount of food production but the amount of food production relative to other activities.
Thailand’s royal disgrace
Tumbler #15
I know this is a long delay since your comment
you said it would only be an issue to comment on what the King had done against Darunee from inside Thailand
but, note that the Thai law does not differentiate whether the LM “offence” is committed in Thailand or not
its unlikely that an attempted extradition from outside Thailand would succeed but if someone commits an LM “offence” outside Thailand (and it is noticed) then they should be careful about visiting Thailand as they could be arrested while visiting
Mega projects and Lao transitions
The inclusion of the graph serves little purpose. Even in the poorest of countries, people need to eat and the creation and consumption of nutrition is the most basic of organized human activities. Were it otherwise the intercept would be at (0,0) because everyone would be dead of starvation and nothing of value could be produced.
Thailand’s royal disgrace
Ralph #76
thanks for your contribution … I confess I was not watching Thailands news so closely in those days so your more informed comments are helpful in confirming my instinctual feel for the real situation at the time
Mungo #74
wrt the involvement of the police in the atrocities I wasnt being careful, its just that it seems to me its the retired (privy councillors) and active military that (literally) call the shots in Thailand
and also I understand that the Border Patrol Police were part of the events and my reading indicates that they are an element of the military rather than police per se.
I am open to be educated further in the relationship of the police and military and whether the police have some or any independence of action in these (ongoing) sordid events
wrt Thaksins involvement, I believe he was rightly attempting to bring both the police and military under control of his civilian democratic government and his efforts were a motivator for the 2006 coup
for stable democratic government in Thailand it will be necessary to eliminate the involvement of the serving military in business and reduce them to subservience to the orders of the government. This will require the mass of the Thai people to reject myths built up over many years by retired military operating under cover of “protection of the monarchy”