CNXJeffrey raises an important point. With posts as important as this one it would be very useful to include a link to a Thai translation. We need to get the message out to as many as possible.
I have to agree with Greg’s espousal of “planet pragmatism.” Leveller 6’s #8 idea of “…rejecting repressive Asian values cultures and traditions to help women and children…” can’t work, at least as an ad hoc, point-blank strategy. Surely that’s obvious. The “you” which you mention twice in your 2nd paragraph is foreign observers, not the ASEAN constituency. We’re talking about a long, hard row here: it will take time, just as it did in the West. But the ball is already slowly rolling, in Thailand, at least.
The observations of foreigners, to whom certain modes of conduct seem quite obviously wrong, ultimately carry little weight.The problem is that complex issues of culture are complicated to an extraordinary degree by the fact that to those living in a culture the ‘logic’ of ‘right’ & ‘wrong’ is based on traditional & unquestioned beliefs.
For example: during the ‘coup’ period new laws against domestic violence, including marital rape, were brought in. It is now possible for a Thai woman to bring charges against her husband for physical abuse, including rape. In order to do so, she must, of course, be able to supply evidence from, e.g., doctors and neighbours, and get support from local police. In each of these cases, even when there is clear & undeniable evidence, those who could testify are usually unwilling to do so. Why? Because, no matter how brutal the acts, no matter how opposed to them witnesses may be, all of this is entirely undermined by the belief that outsiders do not interfere in other families’ affairs. This is added to by other possibilities, such as those of the complexity of networks in local societies, the resistance of bureaucrats, the ever-presence of corruption, & fear of retribution. Even the courts are hesitant. It is murky & embarrassing.
In a recent case, tried in ChiengMai, the first of its kind, a European wife brought charges against her Thai husband, who she alleged had repeatedly physically abused, indeed tortured, and raped her. The details are horrific, and she did have enough evidence to sway a Western court. The trial began after lots of delays, & proceeded in a stop-&-start fashion, with judges changing, lawyers changing (it was at one stage thought to be impossible to find a lawyer for the woman, & the first one was an absolute wimp, who would not follow instructions to present evidence), evidence having to be given again, etc. It was further complicated by the fact that the accused openly put curses on everyone (he has a reputation as a man with ‘spiritual powers’), and threatened them. In the end it reached a kind of stalemate. At the same time, the woman was suing for custody of their young (***male) child, a process which almost invariably goes against the foreign parent. To cut a long story short, in the end both cases were settled out of court, as a ‘face-saving’ bargain. The man agreed to assign custody to the woman if the charges in the criminal trial were withdrawn. Of course she complied…and fled as soon as the documents had been signed (a process which, at the last minute, also met with obstruction from the legal bureaucrats involved.)
The road to “emancipation and empowerment” is a long and crooked one, with many hurdles. The “dictatorship and domination” of governments in the region may be a problem, but the strong holds of culture are enormous forces to be reckoned with, and will take time as well as considerable ingenuity, not to mention education & consciousness-raising, to deal with. In any struggle, the most realistic starting-point is right where you are. Grab hold of whatever is available, & then start the changes, bit by bit. Every little mickle makes a muckle, as the Scots say.
Excellent work, well done you put the Thai media to shame and rightly so. It’s only with truth and exposure like this that Thailand has any hope of developing it’s democracy and society. Thailand needs more people like you desperatly. Reporting like this needs to be encouraged and supported for the benefit of the whole country.
Nongmar is well intentioned, but the fact is that there are plenty of private sector labour unions which did not join either Ji’s red cause or the majority (but not all) of the state enterprise unions that supported the PAD. In fact, the State Enterprise Labor Relations Confederation (SERC), the national labor congress of state enterprise unions, pulled out of the Thai Labor Solidarity Committee (TLSC) when the TLSC decided to not take a position on red vs. yellow, and to not align with SERC and the PAD. There are plenty of union area groups in various industrial areas that are continuing to organize and collectively bargain — such as in Rayong — and they are not involved in the national politics, but they do have strength locally. The point that I was making is Ji talks alot about labour, but he doesn’t have any following. He is the quintessential lefty gad-fly, and his remarks about the ITF are fully in line with that. In fact, most of the private sector labor leaders (who are neither red nor yellow) I’ve talked to — who had to put up with the hassles now and again of Ji’s Che-shirt wearing students trying to inject politics into labour union executive committees — are just as happy that Ji is stuck in England for the forseeable future.
I’m probably on planet pragmatism – trying to find out the best way to balance idealism and progress without resorting to violence.
It is true that ASEAN is miles away from meeting international obligations on human rights. At the same time, my key concern is to move the agenda forward without much violence.
Great report Nick, another fantastic piece of yours. You should start a news room and I’m sure many of us will volunteer to learn from you how to be a real reporter. This link has been passed on….
The problem is less with the reporters on the ground than with editors and owners of newspapers here. Political pressure starts at the top. But if a reporter finds himself a bit too often on the wrong side of the policy he might find himself out of a job, and with huge difficulties to find a new job. People like Pravit from the Nation, who are senior reporters, say what they want, and still work stories on the ground are very rare here.
There is too little money in journalism in Thailand for freelancers to be able to survive. As an example – most medias work with stringers in the provinces. They have no fixed salaries, earn from their work as journalists usually not much more than 10 000 Baht a month, but have to have their own equipment, a car, a computer, etc.
Anyhow, Thai Rath has brought in their report that the Taxi drivers were not there because they wanted to be there.
“Ma ha ngern”
I think you have missed the point of the story here. The Taxi drivers who approached me did not know that this was a Bhum Jai Thai event, and would not have taken part of they would have known. They were lied to to, and could not leave anymore when they finally found out.
I have never had a similar experience in Red Shirt rallies (or in PAD rallies), that participants of these rallies complained to me – a journalist – about being tricked into attending such an event.
On both sides i have only met people that believed in the political goals of the respective groups whose events they participated in.
Other commentators have touched upon this point already, still it cannot be emphasized too much: Just compare Nick’s post with today’s front-page article in the Bangkok Post on the same subject. You really want to cry out loud of so much incompetence and, even worse, unwillingness… Is it really asking too much to have reporters sent to such events and report about such blatent government-organized political corruption?
After Taxi Driver get money from Bhum Jai Thai Party then tomorrow they go to get money from the leader of red shirt group again. They can do everything for money.
Labour movements do tend to support each other… in fact that’s what they are there for. The problem was that Giles and the Marxist-Leninists couldn’t attract state organization workers and their unions to the red shirts after they split from PAD. The unions here might not be much, but they pretty well all there is in the way of organized labour.
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Bhum Jai Thai and the business of protests slightly gone wrong
CNXJeffrey raises an important point. With posts as important as this one it would be very useful to include a link to a Thai translation. We need to get the message out to as many as possible.
ASEAN and Human Rights – Can they mix?
I have to agree with Greg’s espousal of “planet pragmatism.” Leveller 6’s #8 idea of “…rejecting repressive Asian values cultures and traditions to help women and children…” can’t work, at least as an ad hoc, point-blank strategy. Surely that’s obvious. The “you” which you mention twice in your 2nd paragraph is foreign observers, not the ASEAN constituency. We’re talking about a long, hard row here: it will take time, just as it did in the West. But the ball is already slowly rolling, in Thailand, at least.
The observations of foreigners, to whom certain modes of conduct seem quite obviously wrong, ultimately carry little weight.The problem is that complex issues of culture are complicated to an extraordinary degree by the fact that to those living in a culture the ‘logic’ of ‘right’ & ‘wrong’ is based on traditional & unquestioned beliefs.
For example: during the ‘coup’ period new laws against domestic violence, including marital rape, were brought in. It is now possible for a Thai woman to bring charges against her husband for physical abuse, including rape. In order to do so, she must, of course, be able to supply evidence from, e.g., doctors and neighbours, and get support from local police. In each of these cases, even when there is clear & undeniable evidence, those who could testify are usually unwilling to do so. Why? Because, no matter how brutal the acts, no matter how opposed to them witnesses may be, all of this is entirely undermined by the belief that outsiders do not interfere in other families’ affairs. This is added to by other possibilities, such as those of the complexity of networks in local societies, the resistance of bureaucrats, the ever-presence of corruption, & fear of retribution. Even the courts are hesitant. It is murky & embarrassing.
In a recent case, tried in ChiengMai, the first of its kind, a European wife brought charges against her Thai husband, who she alleged had repeatedly physically abused, indeed tortured, and raped her. The details are horrific, and she did have enough evidence to sway a Western court. The trial began after lots of delays, & proceeded in a stop-&-start fashion, with judges changing, lawyers changing (it was at one stage thought to be impossible to find a lawyer for the woman, & the first one was an absolute wimp, who would not follow instructions to present evidence), evidence having to be given again, etc. It was further complicated by the fact that the accused openly put curses on everyone (he has a reputation as a man with ‘spiritual powers’), and threatened them. In the end it reached a kind of stalemate. At the same time, the woman was suing for custody of their young (***male) child, a process which almost invariably goes against the foreign parent. To cut a long story short, in the end both cases were settled out of court, as a ‘face-saving’ bargain. The man agreed to assign custody to the woman if the charges in the criminal trial were withdrawn. Of course she complied…and fled as soon as the documents had been signed (a process which, at the last minute, also met with obstruction from the legal bureaucrats involved.)
The road to “emancipation and empowerment” is a long and crooked one, with many hurdles. The “dictatorship and domination” of governments in the region may be a problem, but the strong holds of culture are enormous forces to be reckoned with, and will take time as well as considerable ingenuity, not to mention education & consciousness-raising, to deal with. In any struggle, the most realistic starting-point is right where you are. Grab hold of whatever is available, & then start the changes, bit by bit. Every little mickle makes a muckle, as the Scots say.
Mekong dam disaster
[…] wonder what sort of conversation the farmers along the Kamchay and the farmers who recently died at the Xiaowan dam in Yunnan could have […]
Bhum Jai Thai and the business of protests slightly gone wrong
Excellent work, well done you put the Thai media to shame and rightly so. It’s only with truth and exposure like this that Thailand has any hope of developing it’s democracy and society. Thailand needs more people like you desperatly. Reporting like this needs to be encouraged and supported for the benefit of the whole country.
Misplaced solidarity
Nongmar is well intentioned, but the fact is that there are plenty of private sector labour unions which did not join either Ji’s red cause or the majority (but not all) of the state enterprise unions that supported the PAD. In fact, the State Enterprise Labor Relations Confederation (SERC), the national labor congress of state enterprise unions, pulled out of the Thai Labor Solidarity Committee (TLSC) when the TLSC decided to not take a position on red vs. yellow, and to not align with SERC and the PAD. There are plenty of union area groups in various industrial areas that are continuing to organize and collectively bargain — such as in Rayong — and they are not involved in the national politics, but they do have strength locally. The point that I was making is Ji talks alot about labour, but he doesn’t have any following. He is the quintessential lefty gad-fly, and his remarks about the ITF are fully in line with that. In fact, most of the private sector labor leaders (who are neither red nor yellow) I’ve talked to — who had to put up with the hassles now and again of Ji’s Che-shirt wearing students trying to inject politics into labour union executive committees — are just as happy that Ji is stuck in England for the forseeable future.
Bhum Jai Thai and the business of protests slightly gone wrong
this news that never shows on thai newspapers -*-
ASEAN and Human Rights – Can they mix?
Hi there Leveller 6,
I’m probably on planet pragmatism – trying to find out the best way to balance idealism and progress without resorting to violence.
It is true that ASEAN is miles away from meeting international obligations on human rights. At the same time, my key concern is to move the agenda forward without much violence.
That’s the key dilema.
Bhum Jai Thai and the business of protests slightly gone wrong
Thank Nick, your news makes many Thai people look brighter.
Bhum Jai Thai and the business of protests slightly gone wrong
Please help Thai people free from the Dictator. Thailand should more progress than this event we are at good location.
Bhum Jai Thai and the business of protests slightly gone wrong
Great report Nick, another fantastic piece of yours. You should start a news room and I’m sure many of us will volunteer to learn from you how to be a real reporter. This link has been passed on….
Bhum Jai Thai and the business of protests slightly gone wrong
Thank you, Nick. I’m not good in english but it great job.
That thai journalist not ever have. how you do that?
Tell them Please.
Bhum Jai Thai and the business of protests slightly gone wrong
“Srithanonchai”
The problem is less with the reporters on the ground than with editors and owners of newspapers here. Political pressure starts at the top. But if a reporter finds himself a bit too often on the wrong side of the policy he might find himself out of a job, and with huge difficulties to find a new job. People like Pravit from the Nation, who are senior reporters, say what they want, and still work stories on the ground are very rare here.
There is too little money in journalism in Thailand for freelancers to be able to survive. As an example – most medias work with stringers in the provinces. They have no fixed salaries, earn from their work as journalists usually not much more than 10 000 Baht a month, but have to have their own equipment, a car, a computer, etc.
Anyhow, Thai Rath has brought in their report that the Taxi drivers were not there because they wanted to be there.
“Ma ha ngern”
I think you have missed the point of the story here. The Taxi drivers who approached me did not know that this was a Bhum Jai Thai event, and would not have taken part of they would have known. They were lied to to, and could not leave anymore when they finally found out.
I have never had a similar experience in Red Shirt rallies (or in PAD rallies), that participants of these rallies complained to me – a journalist – about being tricked into attending such an event.
On both sides i have only met people that believed in the political goals of the respective groups whose events they participated in.
Bhum Jai Thai and the business of protests slightly gone wrong
For anyone who did not know the meaning of “Bhum jai thai party”
Bhum jai thai in Thai it’s mean “Proud to be Thai”.
But I’m really shame to have such peoples as our member of parliament.
Bhum Jai Thai and the business of protests slightly gone wrong
Superb work, again, Nick.
Any chance of a Thai translation?.
Misplaced solidarity
Susi Wong, you have hit the nail on the head (again). The PAD logo has disturbing echos.
Misplaced solidarity
If you click the link, the ITF site says that this page is not longer available.
Anyway, Giles is probably just frustrated that he cannot organize the socialist revolution in Thailand from British soil…
Bhum Jai Thai and the business of protests slightly gone wrong
Other commentators have touched upon this point already, still it cannot be emphasized too much: Just compare Nick’s post with today’s front-page article in the Bangkok Post on the same subject. You really want to cry out loud of so much incompetence and, even worse, unwillingness… Is it really asking too much to have reporters sent to such events and report about such blatent government-organized political corruption?
Bhum Jai Thai and the business of protests slightly gone wrong
After Taxi Driver get money from Bhum Jai Thai Party then tomorrow they go to get money from the leader of red shirt group again. They can do everything for money.
Misplaced solidarity
Labour movements do tend to support each other… in fact that’s what they are there for. The problem was that Giles and the Marxist-Leninists couldn’t attract state organization workers and their unions to the red shirts after they split from PAD. The unions here might not be much, but they pretty well all there is in the way of organized labour.
Bhum Jai Thai and the business of protests slightly gone wrong
Wonderful report. I wonder if any reader can identify the bag man and his car?