After reading Giles’ current piece as well as the article he refers to (NGOs: Enemies or Allies?) I wondered if there is any good english language litterature dealing with Thai NGOs and their relevance for the democratic developments after 1992. Giles rather harsh perspectives on the NGO’s seems a bit the out of line with mainstream civil society litterature and I find it interesting to dig further into it.
“…am not in a position to make a judgement about some of his specific claims…”
You would be if Giles gave citations and made it clear what he was talking about.
Giles is a university professor and yet cites no sources so we can get a more accurate idea of what he is trying to communicate to us.
Giles litters his prose with a confused mixture of ranting and name-calling. He tells his reader what to believe, yet garners no evidence.
And of course there is the myopic self-referential approach so typical of area studies “specialists” that makes no attempt at all to link to comparable events or phenomena outside of their area, Thailand in this case, as if Thailand lives in a little cocoon making comparisons with neighboring countries impossible. (If Thailand has such and such a problem, is this the norm or an exception? Seems like Thailand has navigated through history with a lot less problems than its neighbors. What are the similarities and differences between Thailand and other countries that have passed through similar stages of development such as South Korea? Is Thailand atypical? Or is all that Giles wants to do is foment revolution?)
Ranting rather than posing falsifiable questions truly puts you in the stone age, Giles.
Or perhaps you are just trying to be “post-modern” and pawn off your personal diary, as Jim Taylor does, as some profound intellectual exercise.
Provide the essential background information before you launch into your rant, Giles, that is if you want anyone to respect you.
Rugby-League-mad people from Sydney always said Melbourne-based Aussie Rules is for sophisticated boys and rough girls. May be the Karen Refugee Mums are in the latter category.
Every time I read a few ‘antipadhist’ posters (any poster!), I start cramping (and my pardons to Colum Graham #39) with ‘tightening sphincters’!
Anyway ‘antipadhist’ if all you seek are ‘alternative opinions’ without ‘engaging in some useless debates about details which are mostly distractions’, then what does remain?
Correct sir! Bullshit is what remains.
(BTW ‘antipadhist’ I am very thankful your posters had already removed ‘distracting details’ because my sphincters won’t be able to endure even a word longer.)
well, I’ve re-read your comments and still don’t get your sarcasm – sorry for being thick. but I guess I can believe it if you say so (and also if it is true that you’re Bkkeater there) – alright.
however sarcasm or not – that still doesn’t change the fact that I didn’t use word “believe”. (although actually word “believe” is too multi-dimentional and has too many meanings, many of which are quide good, and some are just plainly realistic – so, quite often there is nothing wrong to use word “believe”)
whatever is between you and Jim – is your own biz.
frankly, I wasn’t paying attention much to what you and him accuse each other of. I just got a general picture of the majority of comments here: a lot (if not most) of commentators attack him with accusations of bias. while actually as I see it – this is their own cognitive bias manifested (I’ve already talked about it in thread to Nick Nostiltz’s story, don’t want to repeat same thing again).
I didn’t say I support Jim here (or Nick there), but only that I express my respect for their attempt to DARE to offer some alternative opinion or point out some other side to the OFFICIAL version.
there other people here who blame Jim – but I don’t see them either provide ANYTHING different from that “official truth” (or its variations – as PAD, ajarns, Thai MSM). instead they seem FURIOUS that anyone dares to be less eager to swallow the crap of “official truths”.
I’m sort of anarchist, with big tendency to deny authorities (or at least doubt a lot what they say). therefore naturally to me – the “official truth” is the LEAST credible of all. and there are many facts (not only in Thailand) that quite often such attitude helps to get more realistic grasp of the events. (for example when 9/11 happened, since day one I had a strong feeling, almost convinced, that there is no freaking way that such event could happen without “inside job” – during past few years those who voiced such opinion were branded as “conspiracy theorits”, but in past year this opinion prevails in US, at least on net community; so, THIS sort of doubting authorities / “official truth” has lelped me to guess such version of 9/11 that time, and apparently I wasn’t so wrong after all;)
so, whatever all these people try to blame for / attack / accuse for – it is actually INSIGNIFICANT in comparison to what I consider as a thing of much greater importance : need to DOUBT the “official truth” and make efforts to get more facts for ALTERNATIVE version(s) of story !
and Jim is one of the VERY FEW people who AT ALL dare to “swim against the current” – attempting to have that doubt and make those efforts. there more there are people who’ll make such efforts – the better chance it is that eventually we’ll know the truth.
and to me – it is MUCH better than all those people who nothing much else than being smart-a$$es here and divert the whole MAIN point (as I see it – the need to get alternative version of events) to some silly minor details.
their critisism is mostly NOT constructive, but destructive. therefore, I tried just a little bit to neutralised it for the sake of continuation of the MAIN effort. but I know it is useless to continue argue with them, so I give up eventually. I do not bother much with reading all the comments, I mostly skip them once I “mark” some person as such “divertionist”. it is a waste of time, really. (I apply the principle “dogs bark and caravan goes on” 🙂 )
so, Dickie, I tell you honestly again – I’m not so keen to read your whole correspondence with Jim for that very reason, because personally I consider it a distraction. therefore I can’t answer your question “am I purposely purporting misinformation here?”
may be you are, may be not – as I said to me it is irrelevent. but I think you divert your own attention, Jim’s and many others (who read this discussion) from the MAIN matter to the less important.
that’s what I feel. although I might be wrong. I think whatever critisism, if it is aimed to HELP the MAIn thing (of figuring out the truth) has to be constructive, not destructive.
so, once again, I have expressed my RESPECT to Jim (and Nick) for even daring to make such an effort and also for expressing this alternative opinion. and I only wish there were more people making such efforts and daring to express their opinions – instead of engaging in some USELESS debates about details which are mostly a distraction. (and I suspect some may do that purposely – because such divertion to minor details is quite a common fallacy consiously employed by PR profis)
yes, five containers have been found in three different spots as fishing folk have long been pulling up skulls and bones from the Gulf…at least two years after 1992. It is speculated that each site may represent different historical periods of army interventions… and could a new container found give some answers?? (though the BP article would not of course suggest that possibility). The govt is reluctant to open them and is fearful of having a “please explain” request… Strangely enough Channel 3 has shown this on TV when they checked one container. DSI refuses to pursue investigation.
“News reports say three to five cargo containers stuffed with human skeletons have been found in the sea off tambon Samasarn in Chon Buri’s Sattahip district.
Mr Metha said local trawlers had pulled up human skulls. “Seventeen years on, no significant progress has been made in searching for the people reported missing in the attack,” said Mr Metha.
“The person who ordered the mass killing has not been punished, nor have the others involved … who still are living a happy life, playing golf, sipping wine and making comments to the media.” The official number of Black May dead was 38, but the figure reported to the United Nations by a committee representing victims was 357, said Adul Khiewboriboon, who heads the committee.
The committee called on the army to stop intervening in politics, saying it had taken a bigger role in politics since the 2006 coup.”
so, 17 years later, the truth literally floated up to the surface.
this time (with recent Songkran events) army certainly were more thorough and careful. but eventually truth comes out anyway, just a matter of time.
I found nothing wrong in the Economist because it ‘s obviously known among most of Thai people.Besides,there is no harmony and intergrity.
There are anger,fear(0f les..) ,dissappointment,frustration and the air of injustic is too strong.This Govt is taking us back to the horrible past.
I do believe strongly that this is the begining of the end.
So maybe we can conclude: when people hear what they want to hear it is (undoubtably) factual/true; conversely when they hear what they do not want to hear, it is (likely to be) fabricated? And who has the courage to change their stand based on listening to new information? Anyway, anyhow, it is a lose-lose situation isn’t it? (now unless it apears in The Nation, The Manager, or Bangkokpost- then it is of course true right??) Take the issue of Abhisit saying he was in the car when it is was supposedly attacked at Pattaya: it was shown at the Red Shirt gathering yesterday with new video evidence that this was fabricated. But would critics of the Red Shirts believe this?? And finally “guest”, thanks for the Matichon news item link, which confirms what I was told in my thread article.
Nick #185 – great points – and the two excellent statements below equally applies to Thai politics in general (so let’s avoid REDUCING this very complex phenomenon if we can) AND also the Yellow Shirts in particular.
“Nevertheless, in any such situation there will always be events and incidents we will never get much clarity about, conflicting witness accounts, rumors, agendas and spins from all sides involved, will muddy the issue. I cannot claim to hold “the truth”…”
“Both extremes – the one that demonizes the Red Shirts, and the one that absolves them from any wrongdoing are ideologically driven, and do not reflect reality as i see it on the ground. These are all humans, with complex reactions to any given situation, and not mindless robots that act on command. A process of escalation happened that could have been avoided…”
Let us also give the chain of events and multiple provocations that escalated the Yellow Shirts from being a small group of TycoonSonthi TV fans meeting at Lumbhini Park in 2005 (when his show was taken off air by PMThaksin’s government) into the battle-hardened group that took over of the two airports in 2008, at least equal rigor.
If the Red’s Songkran’s actions were “just normal part of the escalation process” – then surely the Yellow’s 3-years can also claim provocations by the Reds/TRT&PTT Governments/Third Hands on numerous occasions.
A Founding Father of the Reds (Mr.Newin) has now given birth to a sibling ‘Blue Shirts’ to counter elder brother Reds. They in fact planned a rally of 200,000 Blue Shirts (easily manageable with control of the Interior Ministry) that was discouraged by PMAbhisit. We have not seen the last of them, of course – as now each ambitious political party must have a street arm. PT-Reds, PhumjaiThai-Blues, Democrat-Yellows.
However, the PAD (Yellows) are at a major cross-road -whether to become a full political party “ThienHaengTham” (Candlelight of Dharma? Surely a MajGenChamlong influenced name?) or to retain its civic pressure group role – in light of the ‘reconciliation’ process. The assassination attempt on TycoonSonthi also proves that they are no longer mere street players – but have joined the big league of power players amongst politicians, military figures and businessmen.
Doug Miles has asked me to post this comment for him:
The reasons why I am grateful for these remarks by Leblond and Jonsson include the attention each draws unintentionally to the fact that the valuable insights both offer and the doubts they quite correctly raise about the text would be impossible to justify without the photographs which NM has published; likewise, the corrections they suggest may be necessary. I am also confident that use of such pictures would enable me to lead these constructive sceptics approximately to the spots from which more than 10…20…30 years ago I pointed the camera at the landscapes whose features they so revealingly scrutinize via my lenses to-day. Both commentators also seem to require me to tell them in words precisely where to go to check me out. I cannot do so but that is only because then and I lack a common vocabulary of place names in whose terms the locals by contrast can pinpoint and inform one another about features of the habitat they share. Blogging of photos may likewise facilitate intellectulal discussion by providing a plurality of subscribers with a common set of captioned images and observations which the management of conventional Australian anthropological journals have denied to their readers by refusing to publish visual documentation of fieldwork for over 3 decades. Bravo New Mandala !
My wife is Kachin..we reside in the USA. Kachin people are amazingly warm people… The opportunity to drive into Kachin State and learn their culture is an opportunity you shoudl not pass on.
I travelled to burma and got special permission to travel to the North or Burma…Kachin State. I brought a tour guide with me. I suggest if you do this trip, pay a local person to be your tour guide..travel with you. I do not reocmmend a military/goverment escort unless you must. Not a good situation to be in. But a local guide.maybe an english speaking guide from Yangon..meets you and travels with you. You will learn so much..and it is nice to have a burmese with you when you go through the military road blocks etc….
I travelled from Myatchina to Mandalay via car. Why? cause airlines just decided not to fly that week..and if I wanted to catch my flights home..I had to drive by car. So..go with the flow. Maybe 2-3 military road blocks along the way. Little stressful..but..I got through OK.
People wrote about Kaching army …fighting against the military. To my knowledge..the Kachin put down their arms some time ago..and they are not fighting at this time.
The one person was talking about the atrocities in Burma..well..yes, it happens. But certainly don’t be talkng about it while in Burma. Big problems..if you talk to the wrong people. foreigners need to keep quiet…No talking about the goverment. Alot of “Ears” in burma..for the goverment. Just follow the rules..and you can get a rich education about Burma..and its very diverse people.
I will voice my thoughts on the atrocities of brokers/thais that come into Burma..and recruit hilltribe and/or poor burmese to come to Thailand for “Work”. They pay families $500 for their daughters..bring them to Thailand.and then sell them into sex slave industry. Terrible things…and I hope to help many of those girls in Thailand…but..again..this is not the sort of discussion you have while in Burma.
Burma is beautiful…
If it was me..I’d drive my motorcycle throughout..on a photo adventure.
It’s the old chicken & egg thing – what came first, intervention or corrupt politics?
The end result is still corrupt politics, and IMO there is only one group who can stop it.
That group is very very large, but unfortunately is still gullible and susceptible to propaganda.
btw, Who is ‘we’?
& which members of the royal family?
Therefore, we conclude the claim that hundreds were killed is logically a falacious claim and likely propoganda. That it is put forward by an academic is worrying as either he has lost his ability to think critically, he has become a dyed in the wool propoganda operative or he has had some form of breakdown. All of these are sad. However, the saddest thing is that the ordinary red shirts have some good points and demands related to democracy. That these get undermined by spurious and ridiculous claims is the saddest point of all.
I would add:
(d) all of the above
any other possibilities?
Although I should add, that nothing about Thailand would surprise me, not even that Jim Taylor is right!
That’s truly sad!
“Dickie Simpkins”:
Thanks a lot. Of course things are never clear cut, and i do consider what you just wrote.
On the 14th i have seen in some sois at Nang loern people also asking both red shirts and army to leave, on other sois i have seen people applauding army. During the whole period of protests in some sois in the area i have seen locals being very friendly with Red Shirts, and in others not.
The fighting though is still a bit of a mystery to me, and it will take some more time before i can make more sense out of it. I have seen some fuzzy footage where Red Shirts were brutally beaten at the fights at Saphan Khao. Also a colleague of mine, a fellow foreign journalist, very experienced, was nearly shot there by what he said was not just normal locals.
I do know that during the fighting at night both sides had guns and used them. People i spoke with who took part in the fighting said that when the fights escalated it was often not possible to see who is who. But it was confirmed to me by police and military that there was PAD involved as well.
Did the security guard you know take part in the actual fighting, or did he just help securing his own soi? Slightly different locations might have had completely different situations.
Anyhow, i have been asking again about the so called “third hands” having burned buses. I have still no indication that this was so. What i got confirmed is that the buses were handed over to the Red Shirts to use as barricades by sympathizers, and that, as i assumed, this was just normal part of the escalation process. There may have been some agent provocateurs involved, but if so, than only in very isolated incidents.
On the other hand, i still suspect that a number of Red Shirts may have been killed (not dozens though, not more than maybe ten or 15 at most). I have no poof though, just suspicions.
Basically, there were two incidents we know very little about, where there is very little footage available from, and that is the early morning at Din Daeng, and the night fighting at Saphan Khao/Nang Loern. I have seen myself, and this was confirmed to me by military sources as well, that the morning attack was much less disciplined than the military actions during the day. Also statements of Red Shirts i know well, and who have taken part in all these incidents themselves reflect this. The bullet, for example, that flew over my head just before day break was clearly not aimed at the sky. Judging from the sound of the gun fired, it was not an assault rifle, but a handgun. Different from the midday push to Victory Monument, i also heard in the morning also several bursts of automatic fire, and not just single shots (i don’t know though if these burst were aimed at the sky or anywhere else).
I honestly hope i am wrong with my suspicions, and nobody got killed.
Nevertheless, in any such situation there will always be events and incidents we will never get much clarity about, conflicting witness accounts, rumors, agendas and spins from all sides involved, will muddy the issue. I cannot claim to hold “the truth”. My aim with this report was to communicate as accurately as i possibly could what i have seen, and how the process of escalation happened that led to the chaos of the Songkran Riots, but i also tried to convey that in the chaos it just is not possible to know everything that happens.
Both extremes – the one that demonizes the Red Shirts, and the one that absolves them from any wrongdoing are ideologically driven, and do not reflect reality as i see it on the ground. These are all humans, with complex reactions to any given situation, and not mindless robots that act on command. A process of escalation happened that could have been avoided, and that is at least as much the fault of the government as it is of the Red Shirt leadership. From what i can see, the key factor that escalated the almost violence free protests were the Blue Shirts. And i would like to see a proper explanation of the government, an investigation, and responsibility. This was not just the over reaction by agitated individuals in an uncontrollable mob situation, but planned from top level.
Red Shirt leaders are now having cases against them for the actions of the Red Shirts of which they could often not control in the chaos.
Why do we not see cases against the for the Blue Shirts responsible people in the government? Why is the traditional media far more quiet on the Blue Shirts as compared to the actions of the Red Shirts? The stuttering answer of Abhisit in the interview that was linked here to is not sufficient. It is typical politicians talk that says nothing whatsoever on what really happened. Given all the evidence about the Blue Shirts that is already in the public domain – the public has the right to expect a detailed explanation, and legal cases against the responsible people.
Why do so many farangs want to preserve the status quo? Is it because they are frightened of losing their pampered privileged status in a more egalitarian society?
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
NGO disgrace
After reading Giles’ current piece as well as the article he refers to (NGOs: Enemies or Allies?) I wondered if there is any good english language litterature dealing with Thai NGOs and their relevance for the democratic developments after 1992. Giles rather harsh perspectives on the NGO’s seems a bit the out of line with mainstream civil society litterature and I find it interesting to dig further into it.
NGO disgrace
“…am not in a position to make a judgement about some of his specific claims…”
You would be if Giles gave citations and made it clear what he was talking about.
Giles is a university professor and yet cites no sources so we can get a more accurate idea of what he is trying to communicate to us.
Giles litters his prose with a confused mixture of ranting and name-calling. He tells his reader what to believe, yet garners no evidence.
And of course there is the myopic self-referential approach so typical of area studies “specialists” that makes no attempt at all to link to comparable events or phenomena outside of their area, Thailand in this case, as if Thailand lives in a little cocoon making comparisons with neighboring countries impossible. (If Thailand has such and such a problem, is this the norm or an exception? Seems like Thailand has navigated through history with a lot less problems than its neighbors. What are the similarities and differences between Thailand and other countries that have passed through similar stages of development such as South Korea? Is Thailand atypical? Or is all that Giles wants to do is foment revolution?)
Ranting rather than posing falsifiable questions truly puts you in the stone age, Giles.
Or perhaps you are just trying to be “post-modern” and pawn off your personal diary, as Jim Taylor does, as some profound intellectual exercise.
Provide the essential background information before you launch into your rant, Giles, that is if you want anyone to respect you.
Karen at an Aussie Rules match
Rugby-League-mad people from Sydney always said Melbourne-based Aussie Rules is for sophisticated boys and rough girls. May be the Karen Refugee Mums are in the latter category.
“…the Thai monarchy is not involved…”
It might be on the downslide, but can’t blame it on the current government. The old guard is very much in the saddle…
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
Every time I read a few ‘antipadhist’ posters (any poster!), I start cramping (and my pardons to Colum Graham #39) with ‘tightening sphincters’!
Anyway ‘antipadhist’ if all you seek are ‘alternative opinions’ without ‘engaging in some useless debates about details which are mostly distractions’, then what does remain?
Correct sir! Bullshit is what remains.
(BTW ‘antipadhist’ I am very thankful your posters had already removed ‘distracting details’ because my sphincters won’t be able to endure even a word longer.)
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
Dickie #61
well, I’ve re-read your comments and still don’t get your sarcasm – sorry for being thick. but I guess I can believe it if you say so (and also if it is true that you’re Bkkeater there) – alright.
however sarcasm or not – that still doesn’t change the fact that I didn’t use word “believe”. (although actually word “believe” is too multi-dimentional and has too many meanings, many of which are quide good, and some are just plainly realistic – so, quite often there is nothing wrong to use word “believe”)
whatever is between you and Jim – is your own biz.
frankly, I wasn’t paying attention much to what you and him accuse each other of. I just got a general picture of the majority of comments here: a lot (if not most) of commentators attack him with accusations of bias. while actually as I see it – this is their own cognitive bias manifested (I’ve already talked about it in thread to Nick Nostiltz’s story, don’t want to repeat same thing again).
I didn’t say I support Jim here (or Nick there), but only that I express my respect for their attempt to DARE to offer some alternative opinion or point out some other side to the OFFICIAL version.
there other people here who blame Jim – but I don’t see them either provide ANYTHING different from that “official truth” (or its variations – as PAD, ajarns, Thai MSM). instead they seem FURIOUS that anyone dares to be less eager to swallow the crap of “official truths”.
I’m sort of anarchist, with big tendency to deny authorities (or at least doubt a lot what they say). therefore naturally to me – the “official truth” is the LEAST credible of all. and there are many facts (not only in Thailand) that quite often such attitude helps to get more realistic grasp of the events. (for example when 9/11 happened, since day one I had a strong feeling, almost convinced, that there is no freaking way that such event could happen without “inside job” – during past few years those who voiced such opinion were branded as “conspiracy theorits”, but in past year this opinion prevails in US, at least on net community; so, THIS sort of doubting authorities / “official truth” has lelped me to guess such version of 9/11 that time, and apparently I wasn’t so wrong after all;)
so, whatever all these people try to blame for / attack / accuse for – it is actually INSIGNIFICANT in comparison to what I consider as a thing of much greater importance : need to DOUBT the “official truth” and make efforts to get more facts for ALTERNATIVE version(s) of story !
and Jim is one of the VERY FEW people who AT ALL dare to “swim against the current” – attempting to have that doubt and make those efforts. there more there are people who’ll make such efforts – the better chance it is that eventually we’ll know the truth.
and to me – it is MUCH better than all those people who nothing much else than being smart-a$$es here and divert the whole MAIN point (as I see it – the need to get alternative version of events) to some silly minor details.
their critisism is mostly NOT constructive, but destructive. therefore, I tried just a little bit to neutralised it for the sake of continuation of the MAIN effort. but I know it is useless to continue argue with them, so I give up eventually. I do not bother much with reading all the comments, I mostly skip them once I “mark” some person as such “divertionist”. it is a waste of time, really. (I apply the principle “dogs bark and caravan goes on” 🙂 )
so, Dickie, I tell you honestly again – I’m not so keen to read your whole correspondence with Jim for that very reason, because personally I consider it a distraction. therefore I can’t answer your question “am I purposely purporting misinformation here?”
may be you are, may be not – as I said to me it is irrelevent. but I think you divert your own attention, Jim’s and many others (who read this discussion) from the MAIN matter to the less important.
that’s what I feel. although I might be wrong. I think whatever critisism, if it is aimed to HELP the MAIn thing (of figuring out the truth) has to be constructive, not destructive.
so, once again, I have expressed my RESPECT to Jim (and Nick) for even daring to make such an effort and also for expressing this alternative opinion. and I only wish there were more people making such efforts and daring to express their opinions – instead of engaging in some USELESS debates about details which are mostly a distraction. (and I suspect some may do that purposely – because such divertion to minor details is quite a common fallacy consiously employed by PR profis)
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
yes, five containers have been found in three different spots as fishing folk have long been pulling up skulls and bones from the Gulf…at least two years after 1992. It is speculated that each site may represent different historical periods of army interventions… and could a new container found give some answers?? (though the BP article would not of course suggest that possibility). The govt is reluctant to open them and is fearful of having a “please explain” request… Strangely enough Channel 3 has shown this on TV when they checked one container. DSI refuses to pursue investigation.
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
I have mentioned in comment #18 about news regarding containters with sceletons.
apparently it was true and this info is already even in MSM :
“Skeleton reports offer hope”
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/16483/skeleton-reports-offer-hope
“News reports say three to five cargo containers stuffed with human skeletons have been found in the sea off tambon Samasarn in Chon Buri’s Sattahip district.
Mr Metha said local trawlers had pulled up human skulls. “Seventeen years on, no significant progress has been made in searching for the people reported missing in the attack,” said Mr Metha.
“The person who ordered the mass killing has not been punished, nor have the others involved … who still are living a happy life, playing golf, sipping wine and making comments to the media.” The official number of Black May dead was 38, but the figure reported to the United Nations by a committee representing victims was 357, said Adul Khiewboriboon, who heads the committee.
The committee called on the army to stop intervening in politics, saying it had taken a bigger role in politics since the 2006 coup.”
so, 17 years later, the truth literally floated up to the surface.
this time (with recent Songkran events) army certainly were more thorough and careful. but eventually truth comes out anyway, just a matter of time.
“…the Thai monarchy is not involved…”
I found nothing wrong in the Economist because it ‘s obviously known among most of Thai people.Besides,there is no harmony and intergrity.
There are anger,fear(0f les..) ,dissappointment,frustration and the air of injustic is too strong.This Govt is taking us back to the horrible past.
I do believe strongly that this is the begining of the end.
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
So maybe we can conclude: when people hear what they want to hear it is (undoubtably) factual/true; conversely when they hear what they do not want to hear, it is (likely to be) fabricated? And who has the courage to change their stand based on listening to new information? Anyway, anyhow, it is a lose-lose situation isn’t it? (now unless it apears in The Nation, The Manager, or Bangkokpost- then it is of course true right??) Take the issue of Abhisit saying he was in the car when it is was supposedly attacked at Pattaya: it was shown at the Red Shirt gathering yesterday with new video evidence that this was fabricated. But would critics of the Red Shirts believe this?? And finally “guest”, thanks for the Matichon news item link, which confirms what I was told in my thread article.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Nick #185 – great points – and the two excellent statements below equally applies to Thai politics in general (so let’s avoid REDUCING this very complex phenomenon if we can) AND also the Yellow Shirts in particular.
“Nevertheless, in any such situation there will always be events and incidents we will never get much clarity about, conflicting witness accounts, rumors, agendas and spins from all sides involved, will muddy the issue. I cannot claim to hold “the truth”…”
“Both extremes – the one that demonizes the Red Shirts, and the one that absolves them from any wrongdoing are ideologically driven, and do not reflect reality as i see it on the ground. These are all humans, with complex reactions to any given situation, and not mindless robots that act on command. A process of escalation happened that could have been avoided…”
Let us also give the chain of events and multiple provocations that escalated the Yellow Shirts from being a small group of TycoonSonthi TV fans meeting at Lumbhini Park in 2005 (when his show was taken off air by PMThaksin’s government) into the battle-hardened group that took over of the two airports in 2008, at least equal rigor.
If the Red’s Songkran’s actions were “just normal part of the escalation process” – then surely the Yellow’s 3-years can also claim provocations by the Reds/TRT&PTT Governments/Third Hands on numerous occasions.
A Founding Father of the Reds (Mr.Newin) has now given birth to a sibling ‘Blue Shirts’ to counter elder brother Reds. They in fact planned a rally of 200,000 Blue Shirts (easily manageable with control of the Interior Ministry) that was discouraged by PMAbhisit. We have not seen the last of them, of course – as now each ambitious political party must have a street arm. PT-Reds, PhumjaiThai-Blues, Democrat-Yellows.
However, the PAD (Yellows) are at a major cross-road -whether to become a full political party “ThienHaengTham” (Candlelight of Dharma? Surely a MajGenChamlong influenced name?) or to retain its civic pressure group role – in light of the ‘reconciliation’ process. The assassination attempt on TycoonSonthi also proves that they are no longer mere street players – but have joined the big league of power players amongst politicians, military figures and businessmen.
The violent suppression of opium cultivation
Doug Miles has asked me to post this comment for him:
The reasons why I am grateful for these remarks by Leblond and Jonsson include the attention each draws unintentionally to the fact that the valuable insights both offer and the doubts they quite correctly raise about the text would be impossible to justify without the photographs which NM has published; likewise, the corrections they suggest may be necessary. I am also confident that use of such pictures would enable me to lead these constructive sceptics approximately to the spots from which more than 10…20…30 years ago I pointed the camera at the landscapes whose features they so revealingly scrutinize via my lenses to-day. Both commentators also seem to require me to tell them in words precisely where to go to check me out. I cannot do so but that is only because then and I lack a common vocabulary of place names in whose terms the locals by contrast can pinpoint and inform one another about features of the habitat they share. Blogging of photos may likewise facilitate intellectulal discussion by providing a plurality of subscribers with a common set of captioned images and observations which the management of conventional Australian anthropological journals have denied to their readers by refusing to publish visual documentation of fieldwork for over 3 decades. Bravo New Mandala !
Karen at an Aussie Rules match
Wondering what on earth would inspire people to think that refugee mums want to watch Aussie Rules footy!!
The Stilwell Road
My wife is Kachin..we reside in the USA. Kachin people are amazingly warm people… The opportunity to drive into Kachin State and learn their culture is an opportunity you shoudl not pass on.
I travelled to burma and got special permission to travel to the North or Burma…Kachin State. I brought a tour guide with me. I suggest if you do this trip, pay a local person to be your tour guide..travel with you. I do not reocmmend a military/goverment escort unless you must. Not a good situation to be in. But a local guide.maybe an english speaking guide from Yangon..meets you and travels with you. You will learn so much..and it is nice to have a burmese with you when you go through the military road blocks etc….
I travelled from Myatchina to Mandalay via car. Why? cause airlines just decided not to fly that week..and if I wanted to catch my flights home..I had to drive by car. So..go with the flow. Maybe 2-3 military road blocks along the way. Little stressful..but..I got through OK.
People wrote about Kaching army …fighting against the military. To my knowledge..the Kachin put down their arms some time ago..and they are not fighting at this time.
The one person was talking about the atrocities in Burma..well..yes, it happens. But certainly don’t be talkng about it while in Burma. Big problems..if you talk to the wrong people. foreigners need to keep quiet…No talking about the goverment. Alot of “Ears” in burma..for the goverment. Just follow the rules..and you can get a rich education about Burma..and its very diverse people.
I will voice my thoughts on the atrocities of brokers/thais that come into Burma..and recruit hilltribe and/or poor burmese to come to Thailand for “Work”. They pay families $500 for their daughters..bring them to Thailand.and then sell them into sex slave industry. Terrible things…and I hope to help many of those girls in Thailand…but..again..this is not the sort of discussion you have while in Burma.
Burma is beautiful…
If it was me..I’d drive my motorcycle throughout..on a photo adventure.
“Just leave him alone”
It’s the old chicken & egg thing – what came first, intervention or corrupt politics?
The end result is still corrupt politics, and IMO there is only one group who can stop it.
That group is very very large, but unfortunately is still gullible and susceptible to propaganda.
btw, Who is ‘we’?
& which members of the royal family?
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
Therefore, we conclude the claim that hundreds were killed is logically a falacious claim and likely propoganda. That it is put forward by an academic is worrying as either he has lost his ability to think critically, he has become a dyed in the wool propoganda operative or he has had some form of breakdown. All of these are sad. However, the saddest thing is that the ordinary red shirts have some good points and demands related to democracy. That these get undermined by spurious and ridiculous claims is the saddest point of all.
I would add:
(d) all of the above
any other possibilities?
Although I should add, that nothing about Thailand would surprise me, not even that Jim Taylor is right!
That’s truly sad!
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
Jim
You should post the source of this news that you translate from Thai newspaper, Matichon
http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1241155704
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
“Why get vicious if everything is factual?” – Colum Graham asks Jim Taylor.
The question is the answer.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
“Dickie Simpkins”:
Thanks a lot. Of course things are never clear cut, and i do consider what you just wrote.
On the 14th i have seen in some sois at Nang loern people also asking both red shirts and army to leave, on other sois i have seen people applauding army. During the whole period of protests in some sois in the area i have seen locals being very friendly with Red Shirts, and in others not.
The fighting though is still a bit of a mystery to me, and it will take some more time before i can make more sense out of it. I have seen some fuzzy footage where Red Shirts were brutally beaten at the fights at Saphan Khao. Also a colleague of mine, a fellow foreign journalist, very experienced, was nearly shot there by what he said was not just normal locals.
I do know that during the fighting at night both sides had guns and used them. People i spoke with who took part in the fighting said that when the fights escalated it was often not possible to see who is who. But it was confirmed to me by police and military that there was PAD involved as well.
Did the security guard you know take part in the actual fighting, or did he just help securing his own soi? Slightly different locations might have had completely different situations.
Anyhow, i have been asking again about the so called “third hands” having burned buses. I have still no indication that this was so. What i got confirmed is that the buses were handed over to the Red Shirts to use as barricades by sympathizers, and that, as i assumed, this was just normal part of the escalation process. There may have been some agent provocateurs involved, but if so, than only in very isolated incidents.
On the other hand, i still suspect that a number of Red Shirts may have been killed (not dozens though, not more than maybe ten or 15 at most). I have no poof though, just suspicions.
Basically, there were two incidents we know very little about, where there is very little footage available from, and that is the early morning at Din Daeng, and the night fighting at Saphan Khao/Nang Loern. I have seen myself, and this was confirmed to me by military sources as well, that the morning attack was much less disciplined than the military actions during the day. Also statements of Red Shirts i know well, and who have taken part in all these incidents themselves reflect this. The bullet, for example, that flew over my head just before day break was clearly not aimed at the sky. Judging from the sound of the gun fired, it was not an assault rifle, but a handgun. Different from the midday push to Victory Monument, i also heard in the morning also several bursts of automatic fire, and not just single shots (i don’t know though if these burst were aimed at the sky or anywhere else).
I honestly hope i am wrong with my suspicions, and nobody got killed.
Nevertheless, in any such situation there will always be events and incidents we will never get much clarity about, conflicting witness accounts, rumors, agendas and spins from all sides involved, will muddy the issue. I cannot claim to hold “the truth”. My aim with this report was to communicate as accurately as i possibly could what i have seen, and how the process of escalation happened that led to the chaos of the Songkran Riots, but i also tried to convey that in the chaos it just is not possible to know everything that happens.
Both extremes – the one that demonizes the Red Shirts, and the one that absolves them from any wrongdoing are ideologically driven, and do not reflect reality as i see it on the ground. These are all humans, with complex reactions to any given situation, and not mindless robots that act on command. A process of escalation happened that could have been avoided, and that is at least as much the fault of the government as it is of the Red Shirt leadership. From what i can see, the key factor that escalated the almost violence free protests were the Blue Shirts. And i would like to see a proper explanation of the government, an investigation, and responsibility. This was not just the over reaction by agitated individuals in an uncontrollable mob situation, but planned from top level.
Red Shirt leaders are now having cases against them for the actions of the Red Shirts of which they could often not control in the chaos.
Why do we not see cases against the for the Blue Shirts responsible people in the government? Why is the traditional media far more quiet on the Blue Shirts as compared to the actions of the Red Shirts? The stuttering answer of Abhisit in the interview that was linked here to is not sufficient. It is typical politicians talk that says nothing whatsoever on what really happened. Given all the evidence about the Blue Shirts that is already in the public domain – the public has the right to expect a detailed explanation, and legal cases against the responsible people.
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
Why do so many farangs want to preserve the status quo? Is it because they are frightened of losing their pampered privileged status in a more egalitarian society?