Isn’t ‘Royal Power’ the central demand of the PAD? That’s not ‘in the background’ enough, in the same way as ‘Thaksin ambition’ or ‘military power’? BE HONEST please, don’t pretend dumb.
On these matters I AM dumb – I rely on people like you to enlighten me, but so far I must be too dumb to be completely convinced that royal power IS the CENTRAL demand, and not just a tool or a means to an end – the end being to be rid of Thaksin, and like I said different groups wanted that for different reasons.
I sometimes attack Thaksin because I dislike aspects of his rule – does that make me on the same side as the PAD?
I sometimes defend Thaksin/TRT for their pro-poor policies – does that make me a red shirt or on the same side as them?
I sometimes attack Abhisit, Kasit, Sondhi L & Chamlong – does that make me a red shirt or on the same side as them?
I sometimes defend Abhisit – does that make me a yellow shirt or on the same side as them?
The iconic leader of the red side is a self confessed loyal monarchist – does that make him on the same side as the PAD?
How can a movement dedicated to restoring such a brutal human rights criminal to power advance the cause of respect for the rule of law? Are the murders of thousands of (almost exclusively poor) people a trivial matter? A petty offence?
Please show me where and when did you openly call for the murder of 6 Tula, the most barbaric, beastly mass murder in Thai history, to be brought to account for his responsibility, where and when did you call for the end of his power? If there is none, I say you are definitely a pretentious, hypocrite.
Because Jakrapob Penkair has been reading, researching, and giving speech about Thailand political history, the Monarchy feels threatened. Especially because Jakrapob read the Thai history of the critical period of the 1932 coup d’etat revolution that had successfully placed the Thai Monarchy under the constitution. This particular information has made the Monarchy feels anxiety of Jakrapob’s knowledge. Leaders or scholars who possess a thorough understanding of history will have an insight to the context and the game being played. The present moment has history. Because of this knowledge, Jakrapob rises up to the rank of leader when the Red Movement has progressed beyond the initial point.
Edward H. Carr points out that “while politics cannot be satisfactorily defined exclusively in terms of power, it is safe to say that power is always an essential element of politics. … Politics are, then in one sense always power politics. Common usage applies the term “political” not to all activities of the state, but to issues involving a conflict of power. … As soon as an issue arises which involves or is thought to involve, the power of one side in relation to another, the matter at once becomes “political”. This is the underlying reason why the world class BBC was raid. “Politics begin where the masses are”.
I have seen the video(s) too, I agree they are disturbing, but I also agree too that not conclusive.
Throughout all this confusing interpretation events of the closing violent moments of the Red Shirts protests, where are their leaders? Were these leaders at the scenewhere the shootings (by the army) of the Red Shirts occurred, or, have these so called leaders simply vanish, conveniently I might add? Or such leaders were at the scene, knew what exactly happened, but instead encouraged dangerous lies to spread for their own end?
Another point for David Brown to digest: If we presume the Red Shirts to be adequately organized, then we must also presume that the Red Shirts would keep a list of their most ardent die-hard followers – – – exactly those followers who would challenge the army in the heat of protests and ‘lay their lives’ in defense of democracy or Thaksin or whatever, right?
Surely by this time the Red Shirts could accurately report their missing . . . their names and ID numbers. But so far the only Red Shirts missing are (1) Thaksin, the Beloved Leader who challenge the army to shoot him while in hiding at Dubai or Nicaragua or hell knows where and (2) Jakrapob, Thailand’s incoherent spokesman, who at this time promises more violence while he conveniently hides somewhere in Dubai or Nicaragua or hell knows where.
How can a movement dedicated to restoring such a brutal human rights criminal to power advance the cause of respect for the rule of law?
Neither side is untarnished in this regard – hardly either the PAD, UDD, the army or the Democrats is a paragon of rules-based, liberal democracy. Thailand has a long way to go before it even begins to resemble successful (if imperfect) democracies like the UK, US, Australia, Germany or even South Korea. All sorts of things need to fall into place before that can happen. But among these things, there is a hierarchy of factors, some of which are more important than others. The first prerequisite is that relatively fair election outcomes be respected, and not overturned at will by military coups. The second is a constitution that is a social contract among the people based on national-consensus, not some draft put together in a dark room by the army’s hand-picked men. Some Reds are still hardcore Thaksin fanatics, but their principle grievance now is to have the constitution rewritten (or at least restore some version of the 1997 constitution) and to hold new elections. So long as that’s what they’re united behind for now, I’m sympathetic with them. Now, once they accomplish that, we’ll see what their next goal is. Some (but not all) might want to bring Thaksin back as PM and undo all the prosecutions of him. That would be difficult, given that the only person who can relieve him of his sentence now if he returns to the country is HM the King. If somehow the guy does become PM again and all of his crimes are whitewashed, and he begins persecuting his enemies, then you might find me in the streets among people protesting against him. But we’re light years away from that scenario at this point.
I don’t think Thaksin’s disrespect for the rule of law is be something that should be downplayed. But if you look at him within the context of a political system where elites of all stripes get away with crimes all the time, and if you notice this his opponents disrespect democracy to a much greater degree than Thaksin does by supporting military coups, reversing fair election outcomes they don’t like, and amending the constitution to water down the influence of elected MPs, you need to wonder whether the hatred of the rabidly anti-Thaksin crowd is misdirected.
Not pointless at all. You are wrong. There is evidence of live rounds being used and not the practice rounds you refer to. I take the army commander’s statement as one of fact.
Non-US citizen here with military experience, considering venturing into southeast Asia to look around and lend a hand. I’d love to hear more intel on the experience. [email protected]
I just noticed the additions to Thailand’s Political Prisoners’s commentary section. They’ve got a surprising piece on Rama IX, the survival of the Chakri dynasty and 6 oct. 1976 in their commentary\lese-majeste section: Phoo Phaakphoom, “The Last Thai King,” Southeast Asia Chronicle, No. 60, 1978, p. 6: se-asia-chronicle_1978
To what extent is the info in the article confirmed by other sources? Anyone has “”the present king and the coup d’Etat”?
Regarding the car bomb case, unfortunately the prosecutors did not see it in the same way as you do. While you dismissed it as a ‘fake’ assassination attempt, the prosecutors decided that there was sufficient evidence for the case to be forwarded to the court.
And here I thought that “CSI” might have had an effect on crime reporting.
“Accepting that these reports are accurate in fact and true in intention raises questions.”
You are already completely off track: the reports are not only not exactly consistent — how many shells, how many shooters — but you cite the Nation and Bangkok Post (not exactly good at details in recent years) and military officials (a consistent record only in lying and spinning).
(BTW, how did you get from, a witness sees 2 men in a truck, to “5 to 7 men” in 2 trucks, to “up to 10 gunmen”? This kind of undisciplined reporting begs New Mandala to review its standards. And you to watch more CSI.)
I agree, it’s hard to make a conclusion of whether it was fake or real — it was too dangerous to be fake, yet too much a failure to be real. But one has to start from getting basic facts (yes, difficult in this case), work with the salient information, and not get too dramatic: “high-velocity assault rifle rounds” “for up to five minutes” are not salient or factual.
So sure there are questions, but why aren’t they instead:
– Couldn’t it be that some low-level red-shirts were angry and did it themselves with no detailed plot and practice?
– Are “hitmen” usually really as cool and on target as in the movies? Especially standing in the back of a ?moving? pickup truck. (It’s hard to even drink a beer in one without spilling.)
– If we assume the shooters are military, why should we presume they would be accurate, given Thailand’s record of military performance against its neighbors?
– Does it really matter where the bullets and guns came from? The military is so riddled with corruption they could have all be sold several times over
Sondhi was wearing a Jatukam Ramathep first edition by Luangta Mahabua.
I’m not sure if this is the one he was wearing in the Virginia video. Does anybody know?
The interesting question is: why is political assassination in Thailand so inefficient? Let’s assume this one was real, and also the bomb, the two sniper attempts, and the self-conflagrating TG plane. Why do none succeed? Because they are all fake? Because the army is incapable?
When was the last successful political assassination in Thailand?
I was at the press conference of Sondhi yesterday, less than a meter away from him, and the scar was clearly visible, also still a bit of swelling.
I have also been at the crime scene, and took photos of the car. There were shells everywhere, marks from bullets shot at the ground to shoot out the tires. There was at least one bullet hole in a bus close by. I have also asked locals who were in their shophouses in close proximity. The front seat was full of blood from the driver. I have no doubt whatsoever that this was a very real assassination attempt.
Sometimes people are very lucky. This was Sondhi’s day of luck.
it is true that I have not seen you suggest “how wonderful the world would be if the rich could keep the poor under their feet”
meanwhile….
‘Thai Nelson Mandela’ for you, but for me he’s the ‘Thai Ferdinand Marcos’
makes me pause to consider my attitude to Thaksin…
my impression is that Nelson Mandela performed miracles in replacing the “new politics” style skewed electoral system which maintained the Boers in control with fully enfranchised elections that resulted in majority democratic rule. but his governments have maintained essentially the same class divide and failed to significantly upgrade the quality of life of the majority.
whereas, Thaksin came to power after the good work of others in framing the 1997 constitution and the Chuan government which seemed on a good track but fell over, probably unfairly. Thaksin did good work on upgrading the country and the people.
Thaksin continued to mastermind his business activities using his family while he also ran the country. He and his family had good legal advice and I believe they did not knowingly break any laws.
Sondhi Lim, is a businessman and knows how the rich behave in Thailand.
He found it easy to convince ordinary Thais that are not in business that the way Thai business people behave, even if within the law, is unsavoury. Envy, greed are emotions easily raised when large sums of money are involved.
Sondhi Lim just exposed some of these practices and used Thaksin as his example, the rest is history….
I agree I was far away from events on the 13th…. but I have seen the video of soldiers loading (unconscious/dead?) bodies and two handcuffed redshirts into two minivans in the early hours of the 13th morning
this seems to be corroborated (not proven) by witnesses reported by Peter
I would really like to know if anyone has traced the bodies and where they were taken, who they are and if their families have been informed
you may express an opinion that we might be telling untruths or whatever but how do you know whether we are or not?
are you at all curious to know what really happened?
In your view is Jim Taylor’s staterment a reasonable mirror image of the government propaganda on the Songhkran Day events?
Do you believe the government propaganda entirely?
Do you know of any way that we can be assured of truthful details of the events with peoples names, times and their allegiances?
For example, have you seen or heard of any details of the bodies and people that we saw loaded into army minivans in the early hours of 13th and where they were taken? were they taken to an army base, were they taken to hospital or taken to Kanchanaburi as someone suggested? where are they now? have the families been discovered and informed?
the government has the opinion that the army did no wrong, why isnt it a reasonable position for someone to have a different opinion when we know that the army used live ammunition and at least shot into busses, and witnesses have claimed they shot people?
According to several editors and reporters, the notoriously draconian censorship board did not allow reports to carry any criticism of the Nargis recovery effort by the military government, United Nations’ organizations, International NGOs and local NGOs.
Ajarn Somsak, Srithanonchai, maybe the PAD wish to ‘move beyond’ *wink-wink* old politics(?) so that the new(?) politics can’t be so obviously associated with old power!
Apart from mentioning the unmentionable, that was a really good summary.
Also, I’m not too sure about the ending. To me, Chang Noi suggests that politics usually isn’t about survival? I thought it’s always about survival, and survival can hardly be grey. It’s filled with crimson bloody gashes and yellow pus oozing from wounds opened up in competitors to remain the last one standing. With my thinking, grey politics would mean that the competitors were already dead… Maybe Chang Noi can foretell the ending! Please tell us more!
The elimination of potential threat / rival to one’s own power, and appointment of one’s own people (the first time in some 30 years) to top adminstrative position – these are not achievement in the ‘enhancement’ of one’s power?
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Chang Noi on the “grey politics of survival”
Isn’t ‘Royal Power’ the central demand of the PAD? That’s not ‘in the background’ enough, in the same way as ‘Thaksin ambition’ or ‘military power’? BE HONEST please, don’t pretend dumb.
On these matters I AM dumb – I rely on people like you to enlighten me, but so far I must be too dumb to be completely convinced that royal power IS the CENTRAL demand, and not just a tool or a means to an end – the end being to be rid of Thaksin, and like I said different groups wanted that for different reasons.
I sometimes attack Thaksin because I dislike aspects of his rule – does that make me on the same side as the PAD?
I sometimes defend Thaksin/TRT for their pro-poor policies – does that make me a red shirt or on the same side as them?
I sometimes attack Abhisit, Kasit, Sondhi L & Chamlong – does that make me a red shirt or on the same side as them?
I sometimes defend Abhisit – does that make me a yellow shirt or on the same side as them?
The iconic leader of the red side is a self confessed loyal monarchist – does that make him on the same side as the PAD?
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
correction: I meant – “Jakrapob, Thaksin’s (not Thailand’s) incoherent spokesman . . .”
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Mungo Gubbins #138
How can a movement dedicated to restoring such a brutal human rights criminal to power advance the cause of respect for the rule of law? Are the murders of thousands of (almost exclusively poor) people a trivial matter? A petty offence?
Please show me where and when did you openly call for the murder of 6 Tula, the most barbaric, beastly mass murder in Thai history, to be brought to account for his responsibility, where and when did you call for the end of his power? If there is none, I say you are definitely a pretentious, hypocrite.
“Raid” at the BBC
Because Jakrapob Penkair has been reading, researching, and giving speech about Thailand political history, the Monarchy feels threatened. Especially because Jakrapob read the Thai history of the critical period of the 1932 coup d’etat revolution that had successfully placed the Thai Monarchy under the constitution. This particular information has made the Monarchy feels anxiety of Jakrapob’s knowledge. Leaders or scholars who possess a thorough understanding of history will have an insight to the context and the game being played. The present moment has history. Because of this knowledge, Jakrapob rises up to the rank of leader when the Red Movement has progressed beyond the initial point.
Edward H. Carr points out that “while politics cannot be satisfactorily defined exclusively in terms of power, it is safe to say that power is always an essential element of politics. … Politics are, then in one sense always power politics. Common usage applies the term “political” not to all activities of the state, but to issues involving a conflict of power. … As soon as an issue arises which involves or is thought to involve, the power of one side in relation to another, the matter at once becomes “political”. This is the underlying reason why the world class BBC was raid. “Politics begin where the masses are”.
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
To David Brown (#47),
I have seen the video(s) too, I agree they are disturbing, but I also agree too that not conclusive.
Throughout all this confusing interpretation events of the closing violent moments of the Red Shirts protests, where are their leaders? Were these leaders at the scenewhere the shootings (by the army) of the Red Shirts occurred, or, have these so called leaders simply vanish, conveniently I might add? Or such leaders were at the scene, knew what exactly happened, but instead encouraged dangerous lies to spread for their own end?
Another point for David Brown to digest: If we presume the Red Shirts to be adequately organized, then we must also presume that the Red Shirts would keep a list of their most ardent die-hard followers – – – exactly those followers who would challenge the army in the heat of protests and ‘lay their lives’ in defense of democracy or Thaksin or whatever, right?
Surely by this time the Red Shirts could accurately report their missing . . . their names and ID numbers. But so far the only Red Shirts missing are (1) Thaksin, the Beloved Leader who challenge the army to shoot him while in hiding at Dubai or Nicaragua or hell knows where and (2) Jakrapob, Thailand’s incoherent spokesman, who at this time promises more violence while he conveniently hides somewhere in Dubai or Nicaragua or hell knows where.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
How can a movement dedicated to restoring such a brutal human rights criminal to power advance the cause of respect for the rule of law?
Neither side is untarnished in this regard – hardly either the PAD, UDD, the army or the Democrats is a paragon of rules-based, liberal democracy. Thailand has a long way to go before it even begins to resemble successful (if imperfect) democracies like the UK, US, Australia, Germany or even South Korea. All sorts of things need to fall into place before that can happen. But among these things, there is a hierarchy of factors, some of which are more important than others. The first prerequisite is that relatively fair election outcomes be respected, and not overturned at will by military coups. The second is a constitution that is a social contract among the people based on national-consensus, not some draft put together in a dark room by the army’s hand-picked men. Some Reds are still hardcore Thaksin fanatics, but their principle grievance now is to have the constitution rewritten (or at least restore some version of the 1997 constitution) and to hold new elections. So long as that’s what they’re united behind for now, I’m sympathetic with them. Now, once they accomplish that, we’ll see what their next goal is. Some (but not all) might want to bring Thaksin back as PM and undo all the prosecutions of him. That would be difficult, given that the only person who can relieve him of his sentence now if he returns to the country is HM the King. If somehow the guy does become PM again and all of his crimes are whitewashed, and he begins persecuting his enemies, then you might find me in the streets among people protesting against him. But we’re light years away from that scenario at this point.
I don’t think Thaksin’s disrespect for the rule of law is be something that should be downplayed. But if you look at him within the context of a political system where elites of all stripes get away with crimes all the time, and if you notice this his opponents disrespect democracy to a much greater degree than Thaksin does by supporting military coups, reversing fair election outcomes they don’t like, and amending the constitution to water down the influence of elected MPs, you need to wonder whether the hatred of the rabidly anti-Thaksin crowd is misdirected.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Not pointless at all. You are wrong. There is evidence of live rounds being used and not the practice rounds you refer to. I take the army commander’s statement as one of fact.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
CHARLES F.-
Non-US citizen here with military experience, considering venturing into southeast Asia to look around and lend a hand. I’d love to hear more intel on the experience. [email protected]
Pasuk and Baker on “spirits, stars and Thai politics”
I just noticed the additions to Thailand’s Political Prisoners’s commentary section. They’ve got a surprising piece on Rama IX, the survival of the Chakri dynasty and 6 oct. 1976 in their commentary\lese-majeste section: Phoo Phaakphoom, “The Last Thai King,” Southeast Asia Chronicle, No. 60, 1978, p. 6: se-asia-chronicle_1978
To what extent is the info in the article confirmed by other sources? Anyone has “”the present king and the coup d’Etat”?
The Sondhi Limthongkul assassination effort
@Portman:
Regarding the car bomb case, unfortunately the prosecutors did not see it in the same way as you do. While you dismissed it as a ‘fake’ assassination attempt, the prosecutors decided that there was sufficient evidence for the case to be forwarded to the court.
Let’s see what the court’s ruling will be.
The Sondhi Limthongkul assassination effort
And here I thought that “CSI” might have had an effect on crime reporting.
“Accepting that these reports are accurate in fact and true in intention raises questions.”
You are already completely off track: the reports are not only not exactly consistent — how many shells, how many shooters — but you cite the Nation and Bangkok Post (not exactly good at details in recent years) and military officials (a consistent record only in lying and spinning).
(BTW, how did you get from, a witness sees 2 men in a truck, to “5 to 7 men” in 2 trucks, to “up to 10 gunmen”? This kind of undisciplined reporting begs New Mandala to review its standards. And you to watch more CSI.)
I agree, it’s hard to make a conclusion of whether it was fake or real — it was too dangerous to be fake, yet too much a failure to be real. But one has to start from getting basic facts (yes, difficult in this case), work with the salient information, and not get too dramatic: “high-velocity assault rifle rounds” “for up to five minutes” are not salient or factual.
So sure there are questions, but why aren’t they instead:
– Couldn’t it be that some low-level red-shirts were angry and did it themselves with no detailed plot and practice?
– Are “hitmen” usually really as cool and on target as in the movies? Especially standing in the back of a ?moving? pickup truck. (It’s hard to even drink a beer in one without spilling.)
– If we assume the shooters are military, why should we presume they would be accurate, given Thailand’s record of military performance against its neighbors?
– Does it really matter where the bullets and guns came from? The military is so riddled with corruption they could have all be sold several times over
The Sondhi Limthongkul assassination effort
Sondhi was wearing a Jatukam Ramathep first edition by Luangta Mahabua.
I’m not sure if this is the one he was wearing in the Virginia video. Does anybody know?
The interesting question is: why is political assassination in Thailand so inefficient? Let’s assume this one was real, and also the bomb, the two sniper attempts, and the self-conflagrating TG plane. Why do none succeed? Because they are all fake? Because the army is incapable?
When was the last successful political assassination in Thailand?
The Sondhi Limthongkul assassination effort
I was at the press conference of Sondhi yesterday, less than a meter away from him, and the scar was clearly visible, also still a bit of swelling.
I have also been at the crime scene, and took photos of the car. There were shells everywhere, marks from bullets shot at the ground to shoot out the tires. There was at least one bullet hole in a bus close by. I have also asked locals who were in their shophouses in close proximity. The front seat was full of blood from the driver. I have no doubt whatsoever that this was a very real assassination attempt.
Sometimes people are very lucky. This was Sondhi’s day of luck.
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
Sidh S #46
I apologise,
it is true that I have not seen you suggest “how wonderful the world would be if the rich could keep the poor under their feet”
meanwhile….
‘Thai Nelson Mandela’ for you, but for me he’s the ‘Thai Ferdinand Marcos’
makes me pause to consider my attitude to Thaksin…
my impression is that Nelson Mandela performed miracles in replacing the “new politics” style skewed electoral system which maintained the Boers in control with fully enfranchised elections that resulted in majority democratic rule. but his governments have maintained essentially the same class divide and failed to significantly upgrade the quality of life of the majority.
whereas, Thaksin came to power after the good work of others in framing the 1997 constitution and the Chuan government which seemed on a good track but fell over, probably unfairly. Thaksin did good work on upgrading the country and the people.
Thaksin continued to mastermind his business activities using his family while he also ran the country. He and his family had good legal advice and I believe they did not knowingly break any laws.
Sondhi Lim, is a businessman and knows how the rich behave in Thailand.
He found it easy to convince ordinary Thais that are not in business that the way Thai business people behave, even if within the law, is unsavoury. Envy, greed are emotions easily raised when large sums of money are involved.
Sondhi Lim just exposed some of these practices and used Thaksin as his example, the rest is history….
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
Dickie Simkins #26
I agree I was far away from events on the 13th…. but I have seen the video of soldiers loading (unconscious/dead?) bodies and two handcuffed redshirts into two minivans in the early hours of the 13th morning
this seems to be corroborated (not proven) by witnesses reported by Peter
I would really like to know if anyone has traced the bodies and where they were taken, who they are and if their families have been informed
you may express an opinion that we might be telling untruths or whatever but how do you know whether we are or not?
are you at all curious to know what really happened?
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
Portman,
In your view is Jim Taylor’s staterment a reasonable mirror image of the government propaganda on the Songhkran Day events?
Do you believe the government propaganda entirely?
Do you know of any way that we can be assured of truthful details of the events with peoples names, times and their allegiances?
For example, have you seen or heard of any details of the bodies and people that we saw loaded into army minivans in the early hours of 13th and where they were taken? were they taken to an army base, were they taken to hospital or taken to Kanchanaburi as someone suggested? where are they now? have the families been discovered and informed?
the government has the opinion that the army did no wrong, why isnt it a reasonable position for someone to have a different opinion when we know that the army used live ammunition and at least shot into busses, and witnesses have claimed they shot people?
Aid and politics after Cyclone Nargis
According to several editors and reporters, the notoriously draconian censorship board did not allow reports to carry any criticism of the Nargis recovery effort by the military government, United Nations’ organizations, International NGOs and local NGOs.
http://www.irrawaddy.org/article.php?art_id=15580
Chang Noi on the “grey politics of survival”
(*…not mentioning the unmentionable..)
Chang Noi on the “grey politics of survival”
Ajarn Somsak, Srithanonchai, maybe the PAD wish to ‘move beyond’ *wink-wink* old politics(?) so that the new(?) politics can’t be so obviously associated with old power!
Apart from mentioning the unmentionable, that was a really good summary.
Also, I’m not too sure about the ending. To me, Chang Noi suggests that politics usually isn’t about survival? I thought it’s always about survival, and survival can hardly be grey. It’s filled with crimson bloody gashes and yellow pus oozing from wounds opened up in competitors to remain the last one standing. With my thinking, grey politics would mean that the competitors were already dead… Maybe Chang Noi can foretell the ending! Please tell us more!
Chang Noi on the “grey politics of survival”
Sidh S.
I am not sure how that was achieved?….
The elimination of potential threat / rival to one’s own power, and appointment of one’s own people (the first time in some 30 years) to top adminstrative position – these are not achievement in the ‘enhancement’ of one’s power?