In May 1992 there were no citizens with mobile phones with cameras in them. There weren’t fewer. There were none. There were no cameras in mobile phones in Thailand in 1992. The killings were on Rajadamnoen Avenue, which is not residential, and where all businesses had been shut for days because of the protests. So, the army could have easily picked up bodies then without being photographed. Those are not the conditions in Bangkok today, nor in the areas where the violence took place. Plenty of people live in Din Daeng. You can believe what you want, but you don’t have one shred of credible evidence to back you up. Not one.
Govt starts crackdown on red shirt networks
Police raid community radio stations, UDD TV
By: POST REPORTERS
Published: 17/04/2009 at 12:00 AM
Newspaper section: News
The government has begun dismantling red shirt networks by raiding and closing down community radio stations.
Police raided the pro-Thaksin DStation in Bangkok yesterday and, in central Chiang Mai, police searched the 4th floor of the Grand Waroros hotel where a community radio station is based.
The Chiang Mai station is operated by the anti-government Rak Chiang Mai 51, which is known to support former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.
Police seized transmission equipment against a backdrop of angry protests by more than 200 red shirts who gathered outside the hotel.
Chiang Mai provincial police chief Sommai Kongwisaisuk said the station was told to stop broadcasting after 6pm on Monday.
Before that, the station was allowed to broadcast but forbidden from causing public disturbances, Pol Maj Gen Sommai said.
Provincial branches of the Internal Security Operations Command (Isoc) also asked community radio operators not to use their stations to incite unrest.
Thanapat Chaichana, a community radio host in Phayao, said Isoc officials had warned the operators their stations would be closed if they failed to follow instructions.
Community radio stations have operated without proper licences because of delays in setting up the regulatory National Broadcasting and Telecommunications Commission.
In Udon Thani’s Muang district, police raided a pro-Thaksin community radio station run by Kwanchai Praipana, leader of the Khon Rak Udon group. Police seized transmission equipment.
Wachira Khamsueb, a radio host, was charged with operating radio equipment without a licence and released on bail.
More than 100 members of the Khon Rak Udon group turned up at the police station to protest the police action.
A team of 30 police officers yesterday raided DStation, the satellite TV station run by the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship, based in the Imperial Department store in Lat Phrao.
None of the station staff were there when the police arrived. A number of broadcast devices were seized.
The UDD used DStation to broadcast protest activities and air Thaksin’s speeches. Troops on Monday seized control of the Thaicom satellite station in Lat Lum Kaew, Pathum Thani, used by DStation to broadcast reports to UDD supporters in Bangkok and around the country.
Anybody who cared enough to visit the UDD protests could easily see that they certainly did not belong into the category of “rural poor” (although there were also poor people in the crowd, for sure).
Well certainly not Yongyuth, Pracha, Newin or any of the current leaders in opposition. None of them seem to be particularly vocal (in the English Thai media at least) about what’s going on now, and I would have thought this would have been the time to be making a case for leadership while the Democrat Party is on the back foot and under siege.
I’m not sure who is more suitable. Yongyuth Wichaidit, I read, has an Interior Ministry background and that doesn’t seem particularly appealing with the ‘smoke and mirrors’ paradigm that has enveloped the Thai political sphere. (Perhaps it was Yongyuth Tiyapairat & of course, most public politics is smoke and mirrors but it seems to have permeated much further than that in this case..) Really, I’d be picking names out of a hat to make suggestions. Who do you think is a good candidate?
From my limited understanding, I don’t think Puer Thai, or it’s next manifestation, can really escape from it’s smeared image and associations with corruption in Bangkok to be backed by elites enough to have enough credibility for governance again. Do you?
I would have thought that this would be an ideal time for a ‘third candidate’ to emerge… Whoever it is, they can’t be embroiled in the current sham.
Garry #46. I’m afraid your informant’s report lacks credibility. It is impossible to believe that the government could be successful in intimidating hospital staff in the way he suggested, so that no one would utter a word about protestors killed or injured with gunshot wounds. A large number of medics and paramedics would have seen the corpses or wounded from drivers to doctors, nurses, orderlies, mortuary staff & etc, not to mention the soldiers themselves. How would the government silence all these people, many of whom may be UDD sympathisers with mobile phone cameras? Why would they bother to confiscate all the bullets of those killed, if they cremated the bodies? Without a body to match the spent bullet would be just a piece of crumpled metal that could be picked up from any military firing range. It just doesn’t make any sense.
Ralf #48. No credible photographs ever emerged of the army loading bodies on to trucks in 1992. Mobile phones were probably decisive in ensuring the free flow of information during those incidents but they were rather clunky things without cameras. Nevertheless, people were very ready to believe the rumours about the trucks due to the extreme brutality of the military crack down and the large numbers of people who came forward looking for missing relatives afterwards. The numbers of the missing diminished substantially over the following months, as people who had just not been in touch with relatives eventually turned up, and, off hand, I think around 30 have still not been accounted for till this day. Many still believe the trucks theory and it has never been proved or disproved. Due to SFT’s efforts, we will probably soon have a better idea of whether it could have happened this time.
“Good is not the right word to use in a political context!”
I was just picking up on the word Stu used in #42
As to your question, time will tell, but the odds are definitely against him.
If not Abhisit, which Thai politician do you think is more suitable, or has a better chance?
Do we have any photos of bodies being loaded onto trucks in May 1992? I don’t recall any. Admittedly there are more cameras around now, and some of that footage shows shooting at people. Could a few bodies be taken away without photos being taken? I think the answer is yes. But as always, the military’s body count will be lower than that by those on the victim’s side.I notice that the official injury count has gone up. Hopefully the SFT can at least provide an independent account.
nganadeeleg, I think, thus far, Abhisit is a weak man, I don’t know whether he is a good man. Maybe he does the grocery shopping. If he was a strong man, he wouldn’t, as you have suggested, be trying to keep everyone onside.
Maybe he irons his clothes. Maybe he doesn’t drink. Maybe he breaks for little old ladies he could run over. Good is not the right word to use in a political context!
I think, for me, proof of his goodness will be determined by clearing the smoke and mirrors outlined in the recent Shawn Crispin article on the Asia Times. When the dust has settled, entrenched stereotypes that pin people down, Bangkokonian or rural, can be released and Thai society can progress liberally and in a less petulant fashion.
Interesting article on the Asia Times site by Shawn Crispin:
One UDD organizer told this reporter that he had “virtually written” The Economist’s critical cover story about the Thai monarchy, which was banned by authorities from entering Thailand. The same source had previously worked as a fixer for foreign broadcasters in Thailand, including al-Jazeera, and has been in consistent contact with Asia Times Online to provide the UDD’s side of breaking news events.
Many foreign reporters have perpetuated the simplistic notion put forward by Thaksin’s spin doctors that Thailand’s is a rural poor versus urban elite struggle, with the billionaire Thaksin the champion of the former. To be sure, that perception became a reality in the minds of many Thais after being bombarded relentlessly with Thaksin’s pro-poor messages over state-controlled television, where over 80% of Thais receive their news, during his six years in power.
There appears to be an incredible amount of paranoia at every level. We have one solid contact in neither camp (army officer) who is scared to death to say much, and refuses to send anything by email. All we can get out of this man is that there were 8 protesters killed during the initial predawn fusillade by the army, and those bodies were carried off, presumably cremated. The protesters fell back a few hundred meters after the first shots were fired, and this is why no one could see bodies. All employees at the government hospitals have been threatened with imprisonment, or worse, if they say anything. All of the bullets removed from protesters have been confiscated. The two bodies found bound appeared to be people in the wrong place at the wrong time, and it was not determined if they belonged to one side or the other. Most calls leaving the country are being monitored. I could not get an answer as to who ordered the shooting, simply a “you probably know”. The conversation ended quickly.
FWIW, it seems to me that the predawn attack was intended to make a statement at a time when camera focus and eye witnesses were at their worse. And the beauty of it all, limited evidence, and when anything new is found, it is destroyed or explained away. Bottom line is without concrete proof, you have nothing. Hmmm…..
Stu #42: Are you saying Abhisit is not a good man?
or,
are you saying Andrew says Abhisit is not a good man?
Andrew, can you please advise whether you think Abhisit is not a good man?
When answering, it might provide context if you also discuss whether you think Thaksin is a good man.
FWIW, I think Abhisit is a generally a good man in a difficult situation being urged to do good and bad things but generally resisting doing the bad things and often being constrained from doing good things.
As for Thaksin, the best I can say is that he is capable of doing both good and bad things, is indifferent between the two as long as his objective is achieved.
The Reds staged a ‘peaceful’ protest by bringing up a gas tanker and threatening to blow it up with the aim of killing themselves and innocent people who live in the area. Very peaceful indeed!
One should add that to a large degree the violence that happened had been instigated by the entrenched elites with their usual gangs to denounce legitimate demands. Now the common media denounce the red-shirts as violent mobs, but hardly ever such comments were raised with regards to gangs and terrorists from the elites quietening critical voices since the late fifties! When a farmer throws a stone she is violent and not acting in accordance with the law. When this farmer is killed, it is in line with common procedure and thus no need for investigation.
Dear Srithanonchai, thank you to indicate that it is not just a conflict between persons loving different role models or favouring different colours of shirts, but that these are first of all expressions of structural conflicts and processes that will not be solved by dying shorts in a new colour. In fact, the reporting of the conflict by the media in personal terms and much of its discussion are an indicator that exactly these structural aspects SHOULD be ignored. Were they addressed several issues would have to be modified. I find it, for example, always interesting when people declare to love the king, and how important the king is for maintaining stability. So far hardly anybody expressed his love for the monarchy and how important the monarchy is for stability. Even though the king has become immortal through living in line with the Dharma, he will have to leave this world sometime. Then, what is left is the unloved monarchy?
Indeed, it’s the sort of vacuous PR nonsense that Jakrapob used to write when he was officially paid to work in government. Jakro would write or speak any ***** if you paid him enough. I doubt he actually believes any of it himself. Least ways, that’s what his constant contradictions indicate. Basically, he is, “not a perfect man”, to parrot his own rather strange attitude to the Nun on the Run.
Compare & contrast with Maew the Mafiaman, who gets lauded for blowing away a cool 3,000 and robbing the exchequer blind. and they call it Eastern Mysticism.
Notice he said “supposedly as proof of the army’s transgressions…” I haven’t seen any photos that show soldiers loading dead bodies into trucks. I was shown photos by red shirts at Government House of a red shirt dragging a bloody colleague down the street, and of another person being worked on in an ambulance, although there was no blood or wound visible. They claimed this proved at least six people were shot dead at Din Daeng and the soldiers pulled the bodies ont to trucks. But the photos they presented did not show that at all. There wasn’t even absolute proof that the people in the photos had been shot. There are lots of reasons why people could be bloody or are being worked on in an ambulance. No bullet wounds were visible in the photos.
That being said, Human Rights Watch Asia issued a statement today saying that some soldiers shot at protesters, and I’m sure some did. But once again, if the army was loading dead bodies on to trucks on the streets of Bangkok, where are “those” photos? Do you really think the Thai Army is technologically competent or capable enough to intercept all photos being emailed that could be incriminating to them? I sure don’t think so.
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Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Ralphie,
In May 1992 there were no citizens with mobile phones with cameras in them. There weren’t fewer. There were none. There were no cameras in mobile phones in Thailand in 1992. The killings were on Rajadamnoen Avenue, which is not residential, and where all businesses had been shut for days because of the protests. So, the army could have easily picked up bodies then without being photographed. Those are not the conditions in Bangkok today, nor in the areas where the violence took place. Plenty of people live in Din Daeng. You can believe what you want, but you don’t have one shred of credible evidence to back you up. Not one.
Crackdown on the reds?
Govt starts crackdown on red shirt networks
Police raid community radio stations, UDD TV
By: POST REPORTERS
Published: 17/04/2009 at 12:00 AM
Newspaper section: News
The government has begun dismantling red shirt networks by raiding and closing down community radio stations.
Police raided the pro-Thaksin DStation in Bangkok yesterday and, in central Chiang Mai, police searched the 4th floor of the Grand Waroros hotel where a community radio station is based.
The Chiang Mai station is operated by the anti-government Rak Chiang Mai 51, which is known to support former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.
Police seized transmission equipment against a backdrop of angry protests by more than 200 red shirts who gathered outside the hotel.
Chiang Mai provincial police chief Sommai Kongwisaisuk said the station was told to stop broadcasting after 6pm on Monday.
Before that, the station was allowed to broadcast but forbidden from causing public disturbances, Pol Maj Gen Sommai said.
Provincial branches of the Internal Security Operations Command (Isoc) also asked community radio operators not to use their stations to incite unrest.
Thanapat Chaichana, a community radio host in Phayao, said Isoc officials had warned the operators their stations would be closed if they failed to follow instructions.
Community radio stations have operated without proper licences because of delays in setting up the regulatory National Broadcasting and Telecommunications Commission.
In Udon Thani’s Muang district, police raided a pro-Thaksin community radio station run by Kwanchai Praipana, leader of the Khon Rak Udon group. Police seized transmission equipment.
Wachira Khamsueb, a radio host, was charged with operating radio equipment without a licence and released on bail.
More than 100 members of the Khon Rak Udon group turned up at the police station to protest the police action.
A team of 30 police officers yesterday raided DStation, the satellite TV station run by the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship, based in the Imperial Department store in Lat Phrao.
None of the station staff were there when the police arrived. A number of broadcast devices were seized.
The UDD used DStation to broadcast protest activities and air Thaksin’s speeches. Troops on Monday seized control of the Thaicom satellite station in Lat Lum Kaew, Pathum Thani, used by DStation to broadcast reports to UDD supporters in Bangkok and around the country.
Kavi and Walker on Australian radio
Anybody who cared enough to visit the UDD protests could easily see that they certainly did not belong into the category of “rural poor” (although there were also poor people in the crowd, for sure).
Student massacres
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Regarding Dr.Somsak ‘case I’, it is in Daily News “October 21” not “October 22”
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Well certainly not Yongyuth, Pracha, Newin or any of the current leaders in opposition. None of them seem to be particularly vocal (in the English Thai media at least) about what’s going on now, and I would have thought this would have been the time to be making a case for leadership while the Democrat Party is on the back foot and under siege.
I’m not sure who is more suitable. Yongyuth Wichaidit, I read, has an Interior Ministry background and that doesn’t seem particularly appealing with the ‘smoke and mirrors’ paradigm that has enveloped the Thai political sphere. (Perhaps it was Yongyuth Tiyapairat & of course, most public politics is smoke and mirrors but it seems to have permeated much further than that in this case..) Really, I’d be picking names out of a hat to make suggestions. Who do you think is a good candidate?
From my limited understanding, I don’t think Puer Thai, or it’s next manifestation, can really escape from it’s smeared image and associations with corruption in Bangkok to be backed by elites enough to have enough credibility for governance again. Do you?
I would have thought that this would be an ideal time for a ‘third candidate’ to emerge… Whoever it is, they can’t be embroiled in the current sham.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Garry #46. I’m afraid your informant’s report lacks credibility. It is impossible to believe that the government could be successful in intimidating hospital staff in the way he suggested, so that no one would utter a word about protestors killed or injured with gunshot wounds. A large number of medics and paramedics would have seen the corpses or wounded from drivers to doctors, nurses, orderlies, mortuary staff & etc, not to mention the soldiers themselves. How would the government silence all these people, many of whom may be UDD sympathisers with mobile phone cameras? Why would they bother to confiscate all the bullets of those killed, if they cremated the bodies? Without a body to match the spent bullet would be just a piece of crumpled metal that could be picked up from any military firing range. It just doesn’t make any sense.
Ralf #48. No credible photographs ever emerged of the army loading bodies on to trucks in 1992. Mobile phones were probably decisive in ensuring the free flow of information during those incidents but they were rather clunky things without cameras. Nevertheless, people were very ready to believe the rumours about the trucks due to the extreme brutality of the military crack down and the large numbers of people who came forward looking for missing relatives afterwards. The numbers of the missing diminished substantially over the following months, as people who had just not been in touch with relatives eventually turned up, and, off hand, I think around 30 have still not been accounted for till this day. Many still believe the trucks theory and it has never been proved or disproved. Due to SFT’s efforts, we will probably soon have a better idea of whether it could have happened this time.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
“Good is not the right word to use in a political context!”
I was just picking up on the word Stu used in #42
As to your question, time will tell, but the odds are definitely against him.
If not Abhisit, which Thai politician do you think is more suitable, or has a better chance?
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Do we have any photos of bodies being loaded onto trucks in May 1992? I don’t recall any. Admittedly there are more cameras around now, and some of that footage shows shooting at people. Could a few bodies be taken away without photos being taken? I think the answer is yes. But as always, the military’s body count will be lower than that by those on the victim’s side.I notice that the official injury count has gone up. Hopefully the SFT can at least provide an independent account.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
nganadeeleg, I think, thus far, Abhisit is a weak man, I don’t know whether he is a good man. Maybe he does the grocery shopping. If he was a strong man, he wouldn’t, as you have suggested, be trying to keep everyone onside.
Maybe he irons his clothes. Maybe he doesn’t drink. Maybe he breaks for little old ladies he could run over. Good is not the right word to use in a political context!
I think, for me, proof of his goodness will be determined by clearing the smoke and mirrors outlined in the recent Shawn Crispin article on the Asia Times. When the dust has settled, entrenched stereotypes that pin people down, Bangkokonian or rural, can be released and Thai society can progress liberally and in a less petulant fashion.
Do you think he can do that?
Kavi and Walker on Australian radio
Interesting article on the Asia Times site by Shawn Crispin:
One UDD organizer told this reporter that he had “virtually written” The Economist’s critical cover story about the Thai monarchy, which was banned by authorities from entering Thailand. The same source had previously worked as a fixer for foreign broadcasters in Thailand, including al-Jazeera, and has been in consistent contact with Asia Times Online to provide the UDD’s side of breaking news events.
Many foreign reporters have perpetuated the simplistic notion put forward by Thaksin’s spin doctors that Thailand’s is a rural poor versus urban elite struggle, with the billionaire Thaksin the champion of the former. To be sure, that perception became a reality in the minds of many Thais after being bombarded relentlessly with Thaksin’s pro-poor messages over state-controlled television, where over 80% of Thais receive their news, during his six years in power.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/KD17Ae02.html
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Well Mates,
There appears to be an incredible amount of paranoia at every level. We have one solid contact in neither camp (army officer) who is scared to death to say much, and refuses to send anything by email. All we can get out of this man is that there were 8 protesters killed during the initial predawn fusillade by the army, and those bodies were carried off, presumably cremated. The protesters fell back a few hundred meters after the first shots were fired, and this is why no one could see bodies. All employees at the government hospitals have been threatened with imprisonment, or worse, if they say anything. All of the bullets removed from protesters have been confiscated. The two bodies found bound appeared to be people in the wrong place at the wrong time, and it was not determined if they belonged to one side or the other. Most calls leaving the country are being monitored. I could not get an answer as to who ordered the shooting, simply a “you probably know”. The conversation ended quickly.
FWIW, it seems to me that the predawn attack was intended to make a statement at a time when camera focus and eye witnesses were at their worse. And the beauty of it all, limited evidence, and when anything new is found, it is destroyed or explained away. Bottom line is without concrete proof, you have nothing. Hmmm…..
Kavi and Walker on Australian radio
Mark #13
its a good story
sounds like the PAD spraying bullets at the taxi drivers waving the picture of the King
except the PAD didnt have anyone shooting at them
why do Thai people behave like this?
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Stu #42: Are you saying Abhisit is not a good man?
or,
are you saying Andrew says Abhisit is not a good man?
Andrew, can you please advise whether you think Abhisit is not a good man?
When answering, it might provide context if you also discuss whether you think Thaksin is a good man.
FWIW, I think Abhisit is a generally a good man in a difficult situation being urged to do good and bad things but generally resisting doing the bad things and often being constrained from doing good things.
As for Thaksin, the best I can say is that he is capable of doing both good and bad things, is indifferent between the two as long as his objective is achieved.
Kavi and Walker on Australian radio
The Reds staged a ‘peaceful’ protest by bringing up a gas tanker and threatening to blow it up with the aim of killing themselves and innocent people who live in the area. Very peaceful indeed!
Crackdown on the reds?
One should add that to a large degree the violence that happened had been instigated by the entrenched elites with their usual gangs to denounce legitimate demands. Now the common media denounce the red-shirts as violent mobs, but hardly ever such comments were raised with regards to gangs and terrorists from the elites quietening critical voices since the late fifties! When a farmer throws a stone she is violent and not acting in accordance with the law. When this farmer is killed, it is in line with common procedure and thus no need for investigation.
Dear Srithanonchai, thank you to indicate that it is not just a conflict between persons loving different role models or favouring different colours of shirts, but that these are first of all expressions of structural conflicts and processes that will not be solved by dying shorts in a new colour. In fact, the reporting of the conflict by the media in personal terms and much of its discussion are an indicator that exactly these structural aspects SHOULD be ignored. Were they addressed several issues would have to be modified. I find it, for example, always interesting when people declare to love the king, and how important the king is for maintaining stability. So far hardly anybody expressed his love for the monarchy and how important the monarchy is for stability. Even though the king has become immortal through living in line with the Dharma, he will have to leave this world sometime. Then, what is left is the unloved monarchy?
“…the perfect time for your business to grow in Thailand”
Indeed, it’s the sort of vacuous PR nonsense that Jakrapob used to write when he was officially paid to work in government. Jakro would write or speak any ***** if you paid him enough. I doubt he actually believes any of it himself. Least ways, that’s what his constant contradictions indicate. Basically, he is, “not a perfect man”, to parrot his own rather strange attitude to the Nun on the Run.
“…the perfect time for your business to grow in Thailand”
And there was me thinking it was another piece of mindless Shin Spin
Montesano on Thailand’s crisis
Or worse still, an academic!
Compare & contrast with Maew the Mafiaman, who gets lauded for blowing away a cool 3,000 and robbing the exchequer blind. and they call it Eastern Mysticism.
Poor Michael!
Kavi and Walker on Australian radio
Great discussion. Thank you and Australian Radio for taking the time to conduct the discussion.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Well Ralphie-boy, ol’ pal a mine,
Notice he said “supposedly as proof of the army’s transgressions…” I haven’t seen any photos that show soldiers loading dead bodies into trucks. I was shown photos by red shirts at Government House of a red shirt dragging a bloody colleague down the street, and of another person being worked on in an ambulance, although there was no blood or wound visible. They claimed this proved at least six people were shot dead at Din Daeng and the soldiers pulled the bodies ont to trucks. But the photos they presented did not show that at all. There wasn’t even absolute proof that the people in the photos had been shot. There are lots of reasons why people could be bloody or are being worked on in an ambulance. No bullet wounds were visible in the photos.
That being said, Human Rights Watch Asia issued a statement today saying that some soldiers shot at protesters, and I’m sure some did. But once again, if the army was loading dead bodies on to trucks on the streets of Bangkok, where are “those” photos? Do you really think the Thai Army is technologically competent or capable enough to intercept all photos being emailed that could be incriminating to them? I sure don’t think so.