David Brown #40: “who do you think can achieve the democracy you describe for Thailand?”
WHO is that person I wonder??? And HOW might this happen???
Nongmar #34: “…Finally, the idea that ‘international’ help will not be forthcoming has been repeated over and over again.”
Maybe international help from PMThaksin’s friends in the Burmese Junta or the Cambodian government. Many other world leaders got a taste of Red aggressiveness at ASEAN++ Summit and I doubt it left them with a good impression.
It is a very dangerous situation now when things gets this personal. PMThaksin, PMSamak, PMSomchai – nor politicians close to them – were never physically threatened by the PAD. PMAbhisit’s motorcase was attacked last week at Pattaya and again yesterday (Sunday) afternoon with his Secretary General Niphon Promphan dragged out of his car and beaten outside the Interior Ministry. The Reds have certainly raised the violence ante and this must be dealt with legally and I will say here that Newin’s blue shirt has no place here if some semblance of the ‘RULE OF LAW’ is to finally prevail in some form (which it must otherwise Thailand will devolve into a ‘failed state’ and I strongly doubt David Brown’s hero could save it after being responsible in messing it up).
The situation at this point is riot control now and it depends very much on the capability of the government and the security forces to clear the Red blockage of Bangkok. That this is happening at Songkran is a partial blessing as it minimizes possible collateral damage. However, as many business and news commentators, the impact on the economy and tourism in particular is massive and would push Thailand deeper into the economic crisis (if ever David Brown’s hero becomes leader again, will he contribute his frozen billions to the national coffers to help fix the Thai economy???)…
At the end of this, evidences must be put together and all protest leaders – from BOTH RED and YELLOW camps must be put on trial and held accountable for their illegal actions. PMThaksin and all TRT corruption and abuse of power cases must proceed and, if convicted, MUST FACE PUNISHMENT… Only then, can Thai society move forward on solid grounding again.
I agree with Eden on punishing both the PAD and red shirts leader. However, I think death sentence is a little too hash, but anything besides that (such as jail or being banned from participating in politics) could possibly be agreeable fort he PAD to agree with? After all, they claimed to be ‘reasonable’ and ‘justice’ force.
I agree with polo for most part, except the part that protecting royal succession was the top priority. I agree with this statement the most,
“For most of them the LM law is a positive, supportive part of that relationship, in the same way that Catholics, Jews, Muslims, whatever their own private doubts, do not want to hear outsiders disparage their religious leaders and dogmatic contradictions.”
and I believe that the current political instability in Thailand has made it essential to enforce the law to preserve this believe.
Cho, you should know the now well documented history of Thai print and electronic media distortion since the coup of 2006 and reasons why elite vested interests wish to protect the status quo ante. The propaganda has been intense by the anti-democratic yellow shirt movement aligned with the Democrat Party under General Prem’s orchestration. Now Thaksin has at last exposed these interests in public and the media (always claiming to be ethical) is caught between a continuation of having to report or distort. Read between the lines. It is only through electronic sites and unbiased western reporting that most folk can now actually see what is happening and the double-speak and mischief of Abhisit’s illicit fake “government”.
The worrying sign is that we will not have much media coverage – at least from the main Reds protest headquarters at Government House anymore – as the Red leadership has literally banned the media:
Thairath reported “Does not guarantee media (safety) (Reds) Leadership specify, beat (the media) up wherever you meet them”
Ofcourse this has been quite consistent of the Reds over the past weeks and the have extremely low tolerance for different reporting from their DTV or from the Red stage. Remember the news reporters who dared report lower numbers on the 8th and 9th April:
Making the media ‘the enemy’ does not bode well and reminds many of PMThaksin’s days as leader of the country… Apparently the Reds are not comfortable hearing about the violence they themselves committed in broad daylight???
just a couple of comments on your assessment of Thaksin
I think you have swallowed too much of the emotion laden and facts deficient claims by Sondhi Lim and those that find charges of corruption are convenient to support their causes
also consider what an extreme challenge Thaksin faced in attempting to bring Prem and the generals under control of his governments…
he needed to maintain a secure base for his government and for himself and work through the entrenched “traditional” people and processes
at least now it seems that many Thais recognise that Prem and the military must be brought under control but when Thaksin was PM I dont think many would have recognised and supported him if he had made that clear
Abhisit is not capable of defeating the entrenched forces
it has to be someone in and supported by the redshirts and they have to strike hard and fast otherwise Prem and his mates will persist in raping Thailand
who do you think can achieve the democracy you describe for Thailand?
hclau#11, that is a very strong and unfair accusation and I challenge you to provide evidences. If you can’t, I expect you to be a man and apologize… Frankly, I don’t expect you to be able to provide evidence nor apologize being a serial practitioner of “honest mistakes”…
I doubt Thaksin will step aside, and that is my concern. My point is simply that the Reds could impress as a political force if they managed to dissociate more from the former PM and concentrate on getting their message across. Many, after all, view the Reds as the only faction which is prepared to challenge traditional, self serving, power cliques which continue to rule the country. In that sense the Reds offer a vision of the future which to many Thais must be appealing.
I am not a supporter of either red or yellow sides in this struggle, however, I am concerned about the bias in media coverage I see, not just in Thai press but in international media.
There is a lot of news coming in – pictures videos and reports from bystanders. They are providing us with on the spot reporting which is really valuable. But I notice their comments and stories are deleted and unavailable very soon after they first appear. Really it is not necessary for those first hand accounts to be censored. We are capable of analysing their contribution for ourselves. The cover up of information creates suspicion and makes us less likely to trust traditional media.
For instance on this website you had a link to BBC coverage of the ASEAN Summit protest. which had a link to a viewer’s video showing blue shirted men with balaclavas and steel rods receiving instruction from someone. It was available on http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7994538.stmтАП
Now I can’t find that link anymore. It appears to have been deleted (or I can’t find where it is archived?). I would be shocked to find out the BBC deleted this video.
If anyone knows how to get back to that viewer’s video please let me know.
There’s no doubt that the troops will disperse the Reds if they wish to do so. Who is willing to stand in the way of a bullet? Better to live to fight another day, right?
The real worry is that now matters will take on an altogether more sinister and terrifying form: bombs in phone boxes, drive-by killings, sporadic acts of violence the perpetrators of which will have long dispersed before the authorities arrive. The success of just such tactics -avoiding direct face to face encounters with troops/police- we see on the news everyday.
The bias in the media over here just adds to the sense of Red frustration and contributes to the scenario I see unfolding.
How do we know the red shirts information is any more accurate than the governments? DTV is reporting deaths. Are they reporting who the allegedly killed people are?
The army admits they were using live ammo so I am not sure what the big deal is over a few shell casings.
This morning’s Nation and Bangkok Post would have put Pravda in its Soviet-era prime to shame in their resort to unmitigated pro-government propaganda. You could find not a word about the key role played by Deputy PM Suthep and Newin Chidchob’s in having their blue shirt vigilantes incite the first violence at Pattaya.
Instead, the Nation and BP are filled with cries of “enough is enough,” shamelessly setting the stage for a violent crackdown against all red shirt protesters. One wonders where all this journalistic outrage was when the PAD mob closed Government House and the airports and evaded punishment ever since.
The sad fact is that the two english language dailies has long since become a mouthpiece for the Bangkok elite, using the press much like the army to smother all dissent. We are witnessing the sorry spectacle of people who call themselves “journalists” trying to rewrite history to suit their patrons’ agenda. One can only hope that the internet will prove strong enough to help unmask this journalistic charade to the wider world audience.
Many decades ago, I still remember, when poor Thai farmers under the influence of Communist Party of Thailand were active in grass root level political organization called Farmers Federation of Thailand, the royalist and military employed many death squads and picked the known FFT leaders up one by one and murdered them.
The slaughters were so effective, Thailand still does not have an effective left leaning political organization like Labor or Socialist parties in other democratic countries. But the underlying conditions of oppression for the emergence of lefties are still there and now coming out as a popular mob movement without well-know leaders except Thaksin, ironically the richest man of the land, and his band of popularly-elected Member of Thai Parliament representing the rural constituencies.
This could be the long expected end of political monopoly by the extremist right wing monarchists in seemingly conservative Thailand.
Curious that those who screamed so pathetically over the PAD protests aren’t screaming so loudly or pathetically about the current troubles. Oh, of course, they aren’t being inconvenienced at the airport this time.
Dtv latest:
Speaker on stage with a plastic bag of what he described as M16 shell casings (they were brass, so the implication is that they were live rounds), he also made reference to the wounded in Ratchawiti and Ramatipodi hospitals.
Two bi-lingual Thai women just spoke demanding that Abhisit leave the country. As he is the PM and State forces were responsible for the deaths of citizens, he must take full responsibility.
There was also an appeal for people to find out the truth for themselves. The state media has been all but quiet on the violence; people should access web forums.
Finally, the idea that ‘international’ help will not be forthcoming has been repeated over and over again. Do the general public believe that ‘help’ will arrive? I don’t know, but people do ask me that question. The speakers then said that because there will not be any help, it is up to the citizens to fight for democracy
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Crackdown on the reds?
David Brown #40: “who do you think can achieve the democracy you describe for Thailand?”
WHO is that person I wonder??? And HOW might this happen???
Nongmar #34: “…Finally, the idea that ‘international’ help will not be forthcoming has been repeated over and over again.”
Maybe international help from PMThaksin’s friends in the Burmese Junta or the Cambodian government. Many other world leaders got a taste of Red aggressiveness at ASEAN++ Summit and I doubt it left them with a good impression.
It is a very dangerous situation now when things gets this personal. PMThaksin, PMSamak, PMSomchai – nor politicians close to them – were never physically threatened by the PAD. PMAbhisit’s motorcase was attacked last week at Pattaya and again yesterday (Sunday) afternoon with his Secretary General Niphon Promphan dragged out of his car and beaten outside the Interior Ministry. The Reds have certainly raised the violence ante and this must be dealt with legally and I will say here that Newin’s blue shirt has no place here if some semblance of the ‘RULE OF LAW’ is to finally prevail in some form (which it must otherwise Thailand will devolve into a ‘failed state’ and I strongly doubt David Brown’s hero could save it after being responsible in messing it up).
The situation at this point is riot control now and it depends very much on the capability of the government and the security forces to clear the Red blockage of Bangkok. That this is happening at Songkran is a partial blessing as it minimizes possible collateral damage. However, as many business and news commentators, the impact on the economy and tourism in particular is massive and would push Thailand deeper into the economic crisis (if ever David Brown’s hero becomes leader again, will he contribute his frozen billions to the national coffers to help fix the Thai economy???)…
At the end of this, evidences must be put together and all protest leaders – from BOTH RED and YELLOW camps must be put on trial and held accountable for their illegal actions. PMThaksin and all TRT corruption and abuse of power cases must proceed and, if convicted, MUST FACE PUNISHMENT… Only then, can Thai society move forward on solid grounding again.
Crackdown on the reds?
Mariner: I agree. Shame. It won’t happen.
Imagine the gridlock: Is this how it’s going to happen?
I agree with Eden on punishing both the PAD and red shirts leader. However, I think death sentence is a little too hash, but anything besides that (such as jail or being banned from participating in politics) could possibly be agreeable fort he PAD to agree with? After all, they claimed to be ‘reasonable’ and ‘justice’ force.
Suwicha Thakor and lese majeste
I agree with polo for most part, except the part that protecting royal succession was the top priority. I agree with this statement the most,
“For most of them the LM law is a positive, supportive part of that relationship, in the same way that Catholics, Jews, Muslims, whatever their own private doubts, do not want to hear outsiders disparage their religious leaders and dogmatic contradictions.”
and I believe that the current political instability in Thailand has made it essential to enforce the law to preserve this believe.
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
Cho, you should know the now well documented history of Thai print and electronic media distortion since the coup of 2006 and reasons why elite vested interests wish to protect the status quo ante. The propaganda has been intense by the anti-democratic yellow shirt movement aligned with the Democrat Party under General Prem’s orchestration. Now Thaksin has at last exposed these interests in public and the media (always claiming to be ethical) is caught between a continuation of having to report or distort. Read between the lines. It is only through electronic sites and unbiased western reporting that most folk can now actually see what is happening and the double-speak and mischief of Abhisit’s illicit fake “government”.
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
The worrying sign is that we will not have much media coverage – at least from the main Reds protest headquarters at Government House anymore – as the Red leadership has literally banned the media:
Thairath reported “Does not guarantee media (safety) (Reds) Leadership specify, beat (the media) up wherever you meet them”
“р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╕кр╕╖р╣Ир╕н р╣Бр╕Бр╕Щр╕Щр╕│р╕пр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕╕р╣Ар╕Ир╕нр╕Хр╕▒р╕зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Гр╕Фр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Хр╕╡р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Щр╕▒р╣Ир╕Щ” in:
http://www.thairath.co.th/online.php?section=newsthairathonline&content=132693
Similar reports from Matichon and the Nation:
http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1239586747&grpid=03&catid=01
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/30100398/Reporters-move-away-from-rally-site-at-Government-
Ofcourse this has been quite consistent of the Reds over the past weeks and the have extremely low tolerance for different reporting from their DTV or from the Red stage. Remember the news reporters who dared report lower numbers on the 8th and 9th April:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/14761/news-teams-under-attack
And also on the 12th when they beat up a Channel 5 photographer:
http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1239548185
Making the media ‘the enemy’ does not bode well and reminds many of PMThaksin’s days as leader of the country… Apparently the Reds are not comfortable hearing about the violence they themselves committed in broad daylight???
“Life in a Bangkok prison”
i believe the media has certainly exaggerated the condition of the prison, just as they had done with most other news of the sorts.
How many years in prison for this?
I saw this pizza shop in a US movie before. I believe it is nothing new, and certainly not of Thai origins.
This is article is naive.
Crackdown on the reds?
Mariner #38
just a couple of comments on your assessment of Thaksin
I think you have swallowed too much of the emotion laden and facts deficient claims by Sondhi Lim and those that find charges of corruption are convenient to support their causes
also consider what an extreme challenge Thaksin faced in attempting to bring Prem and the generals under control of his governments…
he needed to maintain a secure base for his government and for himself and work through the entrenched “traditional” people and processes
at least now it seems that many Thais recognise that Prem and the military must be brought under control but when Thaksin was PM I dont think many would have recognised and supported him if he had made that clear
Abhisit is not capable of defeating the entrenched forces
it has to be someone in and supported by the redshirts and they have to strike hard and fast otherwise Prem and his mates will persist in raping Thailand
who do you think can achieve the democracy you describe for Thailand?
Crackdown on the reds?
Please follow my tweets at twitter.com/andrewspooner – am micro-blogging and have just put up pics of shot red shirts.
Reuters on the Thai political unrest
hclau#11, that is a very strong and unfair accusation and I challenge you to provide evidences. If you can’t, I expect you to be a man and apologize… Frankly, I don’t expect you to be able to provide evidence nor apologize being a serial practitioner of “honest mistakes”…
Crackdown on the reds?
To Shingleton:
I doubt Thaksin will step aside, and that is my concern. My point is simply that the Reds could impress as a political force if they managed to dissociate more from the former PM and concentrate on getting their message across. Many, after all, view the Reds as the only faction which is prepared to challenge traditional, self serving, power cliques which continue to rule the country. In that sense the Reds offer a vision of the future which to many Thais must be appealing.
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
I am not a supporter of either red or yellow sides in this struggle, however, I am concerned about the bias in media coverage I see, not just in Thai press but in international media.
There is a lot of news coming in – pictures videos and reports from bystanders. They are providing us with on the spot reporting which is really valuable. But I notice their comments and stories are deleted and unavailable very soon after they first appear. Really it is not necessary for those first hand accounts to be censored. We are capable of analysing their contribution for ourselves. The cover up of information creates suspicion and makes us less likely to trust traditional media.
For instance on this website you had a link to BBC coverage of the ASEAN Summit protest. which had a link to a viewer’s video showing blue shirted men with balaclavas and steel rods receiving instruction from someone. It was available on http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7994538.stmтАП
Now I can’t find that link anymore. It appears to have been deleted (or I can’t find where it is archived?). I would be shocked to find out the BBC deleted this video.
If anyone knows how to get back to that viewer’s video please let me know.
Crackdown on the reds?
There’s no doubt that the troops will disperse the Reds if they wish to do so. Who is willing to stand in the way of a bullet? Better to live to fight another day, right?
The real worry is that now matters will take on an altogether more sinister and terrifying form: bombs in phone boxes, drive-by killings, sporadic acts of violence the perpetrators of which will have long dispersed before the authorities arrive. The success of just such tactics -avoiding direct face to face encounters with troops/police- we see on the news everyday.
The bias in the media over here just adds to the sense of Red frustration and contributes to the scenario I see unfolding.
Crackdown on the reds?
How do we know the red shirts information is any more accurate than the governments? DTV is reporting deaths. Are they reporting who the allegedly killed people are?
The army admits they were using live ammo so I am not sure what the big deal is over a few shell casings.
On Republicanism in Thailand
This morning’s Nation and Bangkok Post would have put Pravda in its Soviet-era prime to shame in their resort to unmitigated pro-government propaganda. You could find not a word about the key role played by Deputy PM Suthep and Newin Chidchob’s in having their blue shirt vigilantes incite the first violence at Pattaya.
Instead, the Nation and BP are filled with cries of “enough is enough,” shamelessly setting the stage for a violent crackdown against all red shirt protesters. One wonders where all this journalistic outrage was when the PAD mob closed Government House and the airports and evaded punishment ever since.
The sad fact is that the two english language dailies has long since become a mouthpiece for the Bangkok elite, using the press much like the army to smother all dissent. We are witnessing the sorry spectacle of people who call themselves “journalists” trying to rewrite history to suit their patrons’ agenda. One can only hope that the internet will prove strong enough to help unmask this journalistic charade to the wider world audience.
East Asia Summit off; what next in Thai drama?
Many decades ago, I still remember, when poor Thai farmers under the influence of Communist Party of Thailand were active in grass root level political organization called Farmers Federation of Thailand, the royalist and military employed many death squads and picked the known FFT leaders up one by one and murdered them.
The slaughters were so effective, Thailand still does not have an effective left leaning political organization like Labor or Socialist parties in other democratic countries. But the underlying conditions of oppression for the emergence of lefties are still there and now coming out as a popular mob movement without well-know leaders except Thaksin, ironically the richest man of the land, and his band of popularly-elected Member of Thai Parliament representing the rural constituencies.
This could be the long expected end of political monopoly by the extremist right wing monarchists in seemingly conservative Thailand.
Crackdown on the reds?
Curious that those who screamed so pathetically over the PAD protests aren’t screaming so loudly or pathetically about the current troubles. Oh, of course, they aren’t being inconvenienced at the airport this time.
Reuters on the Thai political unrest
ha ha “regular reader” I distinctly heard Sidh cheered the PAD on the airport takeover! How is that a sensible voice?
Intellectual dishonesty rules the day
Crackdown on the reds?
Dtv latest:
Speaker on stage with a plastic bag of what he described as M16 shell casings (they were brass, so the implication is that they were live rounds), he also made reference to the wounded in Ratchawiti and Ramatipodi hospitals.
Two bi-lingual Thai women just spoke demanding that Abhisit leave the country. As he is the PM and State forces were responsible for the deaths of citizens, he must take full responsibility.
There was also an appeal for people to find out the truth for themselves. The state media has been all but quiet on the violence; people should access web forums.
Finally, the idea that ‘international’ help will not be forthcoming has been repeated over and over again. Do the general public believe that ‘help’ will arrive? I don’t know, but people do ask me that question. The speakers then said that because there will not be any help, it is up to the citizens to fight for democracy