Re: Peter #57 For our foreign friends, I just want to let you know that it’s well-known among Thais that Matichon has been a staunch supporter of Thaksin throughout the time before & after the political crisis/infighting.
I doubt that, sir. I have been following news since the Sep 19 Coup and I can tell you that, among Thaksin’s supporters, Matichon was known after the coup as a pro-dictator newspaper (р╣Ар╕ер╕╡р╕вр╣Ар╕Ьр╕Фр╣Зр╕Ир╕Бр╕▓р╕г) and it has been nicknamed among them as Mati-jone (р╕бр╕Хр╕┤р╣Вр╕Ир╕г). Just google this word and see how much it appears on pro-Thaksin forums. It’s only lately that Matichon has started criticizing Sondhi and some anti-Thaksin started using this word. ambarwaves’s #65 saying about Matichon’s front pages is one thing. Long time ago Matichon photoshopped Thaksin’s photo as a monk with his head shaved and compared him with a dictator in the past (Thanom Kittikachorn). I can’t see how this could be useful to Thaksin either.
Peter, you keep saying I could not believe what I said “being frank & impartial” would affect you this much, but the point is that you are not displaying those characteristics in your own posts. That is what is questioned.
Stephan: Why not do some research? Maybe you can even do a bit of reading on the lese majeste law and the cases involved? The you could have informed opinions rather than beliefs and imaginings.
@jason geddes:
we don’t understand why you are so angry. your words:
“… i have never suggested my country is superior to yours,
nor have i been to your country and told you what is right and wrong.
However i do have the right to express my opinions on this ,
and any other forum…”
because you still insist to impose
YOUR very personal perception of ‘freedom’ on other people,
let me give you one very last example:
YOU may believe to have all the right to express YOUR opinion
on the question if YOUR mother, wife or daughter is a bitch,
but YOU do NOT have any right to express YOUR opinion
about MY relatives.
would YOU perhaps be so kind & fair
to admit that this is a huge, decisive difference?
if thai people believe that their king is devine,
who are YOU to tell them that they are dead wrong?
you may think you are liberal, where in fact you are intolerant.
we would not clash if you say: “i don’t like thailand because….”.
that is your good right, you don’t need to love this country.
but we are in serious trouble as long as you say:
“thailand needs to change” or
“i, jason need to change thailand, coz i know better”.
don’t behave like an american imperialist world police, please.
if you do have any more problems, please do respond……
I disagree that the majority of Thais do not know what human rights are, or that they are “nominal Bhuddists”. But it is true that there is a vast disconnect between respect for the sanctity of life taught by Bhuddism and the shameful practices of Thai institutions such as the prisons, police, and the military. I think its more accurate to say that Thais have come to accept abuse of power as the norm- no thatthey do not know what human rights are.
For those who still think positively about Thaksin Shinawatra, please read this excerpt from Bagkok Post, EDITORIAL Thaksin should know better, Published: 2/04/2009 at 12:00 AM, Newspaper section: News
While urging the red shirts to rise against the government and fight for his political comeback, Thaksin also proposed a way out of the political impasse – dissolve the House and call new elections – which the three-month-old government understandably has rejected.
As a former government leader, Thaksin should know better than most that these protests, if prolonged, can only hurt the country and the people as a whole, more than it could ever hurt the government and his real or perceived enemies. In this climate of global economic recession, investors will likely turn away so long as there is no political stability in the country; likewise, tourists will seek to holiday elsewhere less riot-prone.
Thaksin may still harbour deep grudges against Gen Prem, whom he holds accountable for his abrupt downfall in the 2006 putsch. But there is no justification whatsoever for his putting the country at risk or holding it hostage by inciting the masses to serve his own interests, under the guise of a democracy which he once despised and sought to suppress but which he now professes to cherish.
As a former leader, Thaksin must also realise that the game of brinkmanship he is playing is extremely risky and only pushes the country closer towards deadly confrontation. The last thing this country wants or needs is a civil war or an open armed conflict between his followers and those who disagree with him.
Thaksin appears to be right about one thing only: Thailand needs change. And the first to change should be the ex-premier himself, setting an example for the rest of us by truly becoming the selfless politician he sees himself as, who places the interests of the country above everything else.
Thanks for your response but I’m disappointed that you could only provide very limited answer to many questions I asked for your constructive opinions. You’ve been asking others a lot of questions & expecting appropriate amount of responses to satisfy your probing mind. I wonder if it’s fair for me to interpret your response/comments here as hypocritical? I’m sure there’re a few other readers/commentators here would agree with me on this.
In your answer “Why should Thaksin need to provide answers to the many unsubstantiated and in most case unverifiable accusations? A few people seem to be filled with envy and greed and indulge in emotional outbursts. Why and how should a rational, reasonable human being (or lizard?) respond?”, I also wonder if there is a need to add the adjective word LIZARD? I’m surprised that Mr. Nicholas Farrelly or Andrew Walker did not delete this word while part of my previous comment (#72) to Somsak Jeamteerasakul which did not represent a derogatory term or directly insult any particular person was censored & deleted. Can you & would you tell us who envied whom & for what? Your answer also clearly suggests to readers here that you are a spokesman for Thaksin! One has to wonder why a foreigner like you acted this way as if you’re his lawyer defending him. Other following up questions are what kind of return did you get, how much you were paid?
In your reply, you also said other leaders (military nominees & military ones were included but not police officers?) and businesses (CP, PTI, and Crown Properties, etc) are just as corrupted, were and have been enriched exponentially. In your defense of Thaksin’s wrongdoings, please give us your clear & direct answer on this: Do two wrongs make it right? If you have any evidence at all, I would urge you to bring them out into the public. I & along with millions of Thai (if not the whole country) are sick & tired of unchecked corruption & official misconducts. We want accountable, responsible & ethical leaders/officials. Thai people are not as stupid as you & some of our foreign friend thought. Like any society & country on Earth, we have qualified, educated & smart people as well as the ignorant ones. It’s just that we do not have more brave men/women. We need more heroes/heroines. You have the golden opportunity to be our hero. If you have any traces of significant wrongdoings, please expose the bad guys for us, will you?
You & a few other commentators seem to have a strong resentment against Thai military. I also don’t like what they did in the 70s’ & 90’ massacres as well as the killing of southern Muslim Thais at Grue Sae & Tak Bai. But because of their past mistakes, so you would prefer Thailand not to have arm-forces, wouldn’t you? Is it OK with you for the mighty USA, UK, Russian, Israel and China as well as Cambodia, Vietnam to have arm-forces, right?
Thanks for your response but I’m disappointed that you could only provide very limited answer to many questions I asked for your constructive opinions. You’ve been asking others a lot of questions & expecting appropriate amount of responses to satisfy your probing mind. I wonder if it’s fair for me to interpret your response/comments here as hypocritical? I’m sure there’re a few other readers/commentators here would agree with me on this.
In your answer “Why should Thaksin need to provide answers to the many unsubstantiated and in most case unverifiable accusations? A few people seem to be filled with envy and greed and indulge in emotional outbursts. Why and how should a rational, reasonable human being (or lizard?) respond?”, I also wonder if there is a need to add the adjective word LIZARD? I’m surprised that Mr. Nicholas Farrelly or Andrew Walker did not delete this word while part of my previous comment (#72) to Somsak Jeamteerasakul which did not represent a derogatory term or directly insult any particular person was censored & deleted. Can you & would you tell us who envied whom & for what? Your answer also clearly suggests to readers here that you are a spokesman for Thaksin! One has to wonder why a foreigner like you acted this way as if you’re his lawyer defending him. Other following up questions are what kind of return did you get, how much you were paid?
In your reply, you also said other leaders (military nominees & military ones were included but not police officers?) and businesses (CP, PTI, and Crown Properties, etc) are just as corrupted, were and have been enriched exponentially. In your defense of Thaksin’s wrongdoings, please give us your clear & direct answer on this: Do two wrongs make it right? If you have any evidence at all, I would urge you to bring them out into the public. I & along with millions of Thai (if not the whole country) are sick & tired of unchecked corruption & official misconducts. We want accountable, responsible & ethical leaders/officials. Thai people are not as stupid as you & some of our foreign friend thought. Like any society & country on Earth, we have qualified, educated & smart people as well as the ignorant ones. It’s just that we do not have more brave men/women. We need more heroes/heroines. You have the golden opportunity to be our hero. If you have any traces of significant wrongdoings, please expose the bad guys for us, will you?
You & a few other commentators seem to have a strong resentment against Thai military. I also don’t like what they did in the 70s’ & 90’ massacres as well as the killing of southern Muslim Thais at Grue Sae & Tak Bai. But because of their past mistakes, so you would prefer Thailand not to have arm-forces, wouldn’t you? Is it OK with you for the mighty USA, UK, Russian, Israel and China as well as Cambodia, Vietnam to have arm-forces, right?
I could not believe what I said “being frank & impartial” would affect you this much.
For the western media sources you mentioned, since the new stories occur in Thailand & the players or newsmakers are all Thais while the language used is Thai, how accurate will the stories be after translated from Thai to foreign languages compared to the original version? For Thai readers or foreign friends who can read & understand Thai language well, do you think which version of report (Thai or translated foreign language) they would read first? Do you think the native Thai in general will feel more at ease & open to tell their stories to foreigners or fellow Thais during the interview or conversation?
On the proof of bias, I’m glad you’re able to realize what you asked me to do by your own following statement “Perhaps it is unfair to ask you to present evidence of Matichon’s bias, since making a fair case would require presenting a lot of material.”
I would love to debate with you all day long & endlessly but I can’t because I have to work for a living. After my full time job, I have household/family duties to perform. Additionally, I’ve given fraction of my time doing voluntary work for Thai community as well while the balance is catching up with news/what happens globally. I’m not a retiree or a professional comment poster who has plenty of time to post comments everywhere arguing with others to show off one’s superiority over others.
So, instead of answering your question (So let me ask you a very simple question: What Thai media outlets presented balanced and fair reports of last year’s events, in your opinion? That would give us a benchmark to consider your judgment.), please simply tell me & other readers this. Is it more important for journalists, media and readers to have detail truthful information or balance stories even though some of the stories are not factual?
you still havent justified the abuse of power in locking up people for having an opinion contrary to your own. BTW i have never suggested my country is superior to yours, nor have i been to your country and told you what is right and wrong. However i do have the right to express my opinions on this , and any other forum, that your lese maajeste laws are repressive and inhuman. You can make all the excuses for tyranny in your country you want, but the fact remains your king is not a god nor is he, or any govt official that enforces such repression , worthy of anything but contempt.
we repeat it again:
the ‘lese majesty’ protects the thai people & their believes & the king as a symbol,
NOT as a person.
foreigners may have the excuse of not knowing the thai culture,
but thais have no excuse for mud slinging.
the occasional ‘abuse’ of a law is a matter for the courts.
you may not want ‘libel’ or ‘defamation’ to become legal,
just because they are sometimes ‘abused’.
former prime-minister samak was NOT ousted for cooking
but for breaching & neglecting the constitution he had sworn to defend.
the guy who sat during the hymne was NOT charged for sitting
but for the willful & needless provocation of sacred thai believes.
when in rome, do as the romans do!
in asia society & family are way above the individual.
if you don’t like that, stay in your supreme own country
but don’t come here to teach us what you think is wrong or right.
@12 Jason Geddes
you say you are non believer, we tolerate this,
Good for you, tolerate you say , hardly an understanding perspective..
you say the holocaust doesn’t faze you after 60 years, your right!
but why don’t you tolerate and respect the believes of thai people?,
that is not what i said, but in fact i respect the Thai people i just do not respect on law and the Thai govts abuse of it to repress their own people.
if i would call your laws ‘repugnant’,
used to intimidate and repress me, would you be happy?
most likely you would say:
if you don’t like my laws, stay out of my home.
Actually i actively protest unfair laws in my own country too.
i even share your personal believes about religion,
but that does not allow me to go into a church & insult the worshippers.
if you shared my religious views you would never put one foot in a church, i believe they are all criminal frauds of the worst kind.
to all of you: freedom is first the freedom of others.
tolerance is not an emotion, it’s a behaviour……
freedom is freedom for everyone , that means all Thais, not just the royals.
tolerance is accepting that not everyone will like you or your point of view, yet Le Majeste doesn’t tolerate anything but nice comments pertaining to the Thai king. Thats not free nor tolerant.
“To me the questions that need to be asked & Thaksin must provide answers are the long list of allegations of misconduct & the absence of accountability of them that Sondhi Lim & his PAD leaders as well as other non-PAD activists have accused Thaksin & cronies were involved.”
Why should Thaksin need to provide answers to the many unsubstantiated and in most case unverifiable accusations? A few people seem to be filled with envy and greed and indulge in emotional outbursts. Why and how should a rational, reasonable human being (or lizard?) respond?
Why shouldnt the military of Thailand and their various nominee governments have to respond and be held accountable for their substantiated and verifiable criminal behaviour?
And why is not the criminal behaviour of the military a higher priority than the sundry allegations of a few?
“In the desire to live in peace & cooperation, should we allow ample opportunities for the govt leaders in power & their exclusive cronies to get rich quick in exponential amount while handling little left over for the average citizens & the poor? Should we allow them to get away with murders, abuses & widespread corruption?”
So the military, big business (eg CP, PTI, etc) and Crown Properties get rich in exponential amount, etc, etc…. I agree we should not let them get away with murders, abuses & widespread corruption!
My conclusion is that whenever Sondhi Lim, PAD, Democrats, Prem accuse anyone of something its because they are doing it themselves and have discovered that transferring the charges gets them off the hook most easily….
we seem to be on the wrong foot somehow… my comments about immigration were reported by Thai people and their experiences in obtaining and amending their passports
I realise that it is important subject for many non-Thais but I have only long arms length experience on the behaviour of Thai immigration and their handling of non-Thai entry and residence matters.
Maybe Amnesty International will take up the case. Oh, I forgot, they don’t do lese majeste things in Thailand except by dealing with the governing elite behind closed doors.
Ever since late Ne Win’s BSPP or Ma-Sa-la time, the weekly and monthly crime magazines are a rare publishing phenomenon in Burma under a long and brutal military dictatorship, where the freedom of expression does not exist at all.
As long as the people committing the crimes are not part of ruling elite such as any military personnel or Party officials, the true crimes, the investigations, and the trials or even the most severe punishment such as hangings are freely allowed to be published by these magazines.
These true cases of crime have opened a rare window to have a glimpse at the tightly-closed Burma and her people even though the distorted view is through the shade of violent crimes.
Many a police officers and prison wardens who are able to write well have also become the most famous authors of Burmese society because of that rare freedom in Burma.
Although the exact details may be a little hazy, as I recall reading in Craig J. Reynold’s book on Jit Poomisak, there is a discussion of the distinction that should be made between the western concept of feudalism (which it is suggested could be construed as seditious) and the Pali/Thai concept of SAKTINA (the use of this term which, it is noted in the book, has never been the cause of a lese majeste charges.
[quote]Stephan, you are wrong about the ‘guy’. The King does not prosecute lese majeste cases himself. In fact, he has expressed dismay that this law is abused for political purposes. He has pardoned many lese majeste violators.[/quote]
That raises an interesting point: We all know about the high profile farang cases which get the attention of the international press, but:
1. Has the King ever pardoned a Thai convicted of lese majeste. If so, how recently and how often ?
2. Has the King ever attempted to end the punitive practice of denying bail in lese majeste cases, in effect punishing people with imprisonment no matter what trial result or pardon follows ?
3. Has the King ever specifically called upon Parliament or the Judiciary to alter or reform the the lese majeste laws to prevent their abuse ?
It seems to be that the institution wants its cake and eat it too. It purports to have decried (in one speech made over a reign of six decades ) the abuse of lese majeste, but has does nothing to correct the situation, other than to “pardon” people who have already been severely punished by pre-trial imprisonment without bail.
Peter said: “As for the evidence on lie & slander, all you need to do is compare Matichon’s reports against other sources over time & on consistent basis.”
Can you tell us what other sources you mean? I have trouble coming up with a single Thai media source that would not be considered biased (mostly pro-PAD). If you compare Matichon to reports by Western media, the Straits Times and the Third World news service IPS, Matichon does not appear to be pro-Thaksin at all.
Matichon *does* provide a diversity of opinion, something the PAD crowd doesn’t believe in.
Perhaps it is unfair to ask you to present evidence of Matichon’s bias, since making a fair case would require presenting a lot of material.
So let me ask you a very simple question: What Thai media outlets presented balanced and fair reports of last year’s events, in your opinion? That would give us a benchmark to consider your judgment.
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901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Re: Peter #57
For our foreign friends, I just want to let you know that it’s well-known among Thais that Matichon has been a staunch supporter of Thaksin throughout the time before & after the political crisis/infighting.
I doubt that, sir. I have been following news since the Sep 19 Coup and I can tell you that, among Thaksin’s supporters, Matichon was known after the coup as a pro-dictator newspaper (р╣Ар╕ер╕╡р╕вр╣Ар╕Ьр╕Фр╣Зр╕Ир╕Бр╕▓р╕г) and it has been nicknamed among them as Mati-jone (р╕бр╕Хр╕┤р╣Вр╕Ир╕г). Just google this word and see how much it appears on pro-Thaksin forums. It’s only lately that Matichon has started criticizing Sondhi and some anti-Thaksin started using this word. ambarwaves’s #65 saying about Matichon’s front pages is one thing. Long time ago Matichon photoshopped Thaksin’s photo as a monk with his head shaved and compared him with a dictator in the past (Thanom Kittikachorn). I can’t see how this could be useful to Thaksin either.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Peter, you keep saying I could not believe what I said “being frank & impartial” would affect you this much, but the point is that you are not displaying those characteristics in your own posts. That is what is questioned.
On lèse majesté
Stephan: Why not do some research? Maybe you can even do a bit of reading on the lese majeste law and the cases involved? The you could have informed opinions rather than beliefs and imaginings.
On lèse majesté
@jason geddes:
we don’t understand why you are so angry. your words:
“… i have never suggested my country is superior to yours,
nor have i been to your country and told you what is right and wrong.
However i do have the right to express my opinions on this ,
and any other forum…”
because you still insist to impose
YOUR very personal perception of ‘freedom’ on other people,
let me give you one very last example:
YOU may believe to have all the right to express YOUR opinion
on the question if YOUR mother, wife or daughter is a bitch,
but YOU do NOT have any right to express YOUR opinion
about MY relatives.
would YOU perhaps be so kind & fair
to admit that this is a huge, decisive difference?
if thai people believe that their king is devine,
who are YOU to tell them that they are dead wrong?
you may think you are liberal, where in fact you are intolerant.
we would not clash if you say: “i don’t like thailand because….”.
that is your good right, you don’t need to love this country.
but we are in serious trouble as long as you say:
“thailand needs to change” or
“i, jason need to change thailand, coz i know better”.
don’t behave like an american imperialist world police, please.
if you do have any more problems, please do respond……
“Life in a Bangkok prison”
I disagree that the majority of Thais do not know what human rights are, or that they are “nominal Bhuddists”. But it is true that there is a vast disconnect between respect for the sanctity of life taught by Bhuddism and the shameful practices of Thai institutions such as the prisons, police, and the military. I think its more accurate to say that Thais have come to accept abuse of power as the norm- no thatthey do not know what human rights are.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
For those who still think positively about Thaksin Shinawatra, please read this excerpt from Bagkok Post, EDITORIAL Thaksin should know better, Published: 2/04/2009 at 12:00 AM, Newspaper section: News
While urging the red shirts to rise against the government and fight for his political comeback, Thaksin also proposed a way out of the political impasse – dissolve the House and call new elections – which the three-month-old government understandably has rejected.
As a former government leader, Thaksin should know better than most that these protests, if prolonged, can only hurt the country and the people as a whole, more than it could ever hurt the government and his real or perceived enemies. In this climate of global economic recession, investors will likely turn away so long as there is no political stability in the country; likewise, tourists will seek to holiday elsewhere less riot-prone.
Thaksin may still harbour deep grudges against Gen Prem, whom he holds accountable for his abrupt downfall in the 2006 putsch. But there is no justification whatsoever for his putting the country at risk or holding it hostage by inciting the masses to serve his own interests, under the guise of a democracy which he once despised and sought to suppress but which he now professes to cherish.
As a former leader, Thaksin must also realise that the game of brinkmanship he is playing is extremely risky and only pushes the country closer towards deadly confrontation. The last thing this country wants or needs is a civil war or an open armed conflict between his followers and those who disagree with him.
Thaksin appears to be right about one thing only: Thailand needs change. And the first to change should be the ex-premier himself, setting an example for the rest of us by truly becoming the selfless politician he sees himself as, who places the interests of the country above everything else.
Here is the source of the entire article:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/14380/thaksin-should-know-better
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Dear Dave Brown #78:
Thanks for your response but I’m disappointed that you could only provide very limited answer to many questions I asked for your constructive opinions. You’ve been asking others a lot of questions & expecting appropriate amount of responses to satisfy your probing mind. I wonder if it’s fair for me to interpret your response/comments here as hypocritical? I’m sure there’re a few other readers/commentators here would agree with me on this.
In your answer “Why should Thaksin need to provide answers to the many unsubstantiated and in most case unverifiable accusations? A few people seem to be filled with envy and greed and indulge in emotional outbursts. Why and how should a rational, reasonable human being (or lizard?) respond?”, I also wonder if there is a need to add the adjective word LIZARD? I’m surprised that Mr. Nicholas Farrelly or Andrew Walker did not delete this word while part of my previous comment (#72) to Somsak Jeamteerasakul which did not represent a derogatory term or directly insult any particular person was censored & deleted. Can you & would you tell us who envied whom & for what? Your answer also clearly suggests to readers here that you are a spokesman for Thaksin! One has to wonder why a foreigner like you acted this way as if you’re his lawyer defending him. Other following up questions are what kind of return did you get, how much you were paid?
In your reply, you also said other leaders (military nominees & military ones were included but not police officers?) and businesses (CP, PTI, and Crown Properties, etc) are just as corrupted, were and have been enriched exponentially. In your defense of Thaksin’s wrongdoings, please give us your clear & direct answer on this: Do two wrongs make it right? If you have any evidence at all, I would urge you to bring them out into the public. I & along with millions of Thai (if not the whole country) are sick & tired of unchecked corruption & official misconducts. We want accountable, responsible & ethical leaders/officials. Thai people are not as stupid as you & some of our foreign friend thought. Like any society & country on Earth, we have qualified, educated & smart people as well as the ignorant ones. It’s just that we do not have more brave men/women. We need more heroes/heroines. You have the golden opportunity to be our hero. If you have any traces of significant wrongdoings, please expose the bad guys for us, will you?
You & a few other commentators seem to have a strong resentment against Thai military. I also don’t like what they did in the 70s’ & 90’ massacres as well as the killing of southern Muslim Thais at Grue Sae & Tak Bai. But because of their past mistakes, so you would prefer Thailand not to have arm-forces, wouldn’t you? Is it OK with you for the mighty USA, UK, Russian, Israel and China as well as Cambodia, Vietnam to have arm-forces, right?
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Dear Dave Brown #78:
Thanks for your response but I’m disappointed that you could only provide very limited answer to many questions I asked for your constructive opinions. You’ve been asking others a lot of questions & expecting appropriate amount of responses to satisfy your probing mind. I wonder if it’s fair for me to interpret your response/comments here as hypocritical? I’m sure there’re a few other readers/commentators here would agree with me on this.
In your answer “Why should Thaksin need to provide answers to the many unsubstantiated and in most case unverifiable accusations? A few people seem to be filled with envy and greed and indulge in emotional outbursts. Why and how should a rational, reasonable human being (or lizard?) respond?”, I also wonder if there is a need to add the adjective word LIZARD? I’m surprised that Mr. Nicholas Farrelly or Andrew Walker did not delete this word while part of my previous comment (#72) to Somsak Jeamteerasakul which did not represent a derogatory term or directly insult any particular person was censored & deleted. Can you & would you tell us who envied whom & for what? Your answer also clearly suggests to readers here that you are a spokesman for Thaksin! One has to wonder why a foreigner like you acted this way as if you’re his lawyer defending him. Other following up questions are what kind of return did you get, how much you were paid?
In your reply, you also said other leaders (military nominees & military ones were included but not police officers?) and businesses (CP, PTI, and Crown Properties, etc) are just as corrupted, were and have been enriched exponentially. In your defense of Thaksin’s wrongdoings, please give us your clear & direct answer on this: Do two wrongs make it right? If you have any evidence at all, I would urge you to bring them out into the public. I & along with millions of Thai (if not the whole country) are sick & tired of unchecked corruption & official misconducts. We want accountable, responsible & ethical leaders/officials. Thai people are not as stupid as you & some of our foreign friend thought. Like any society & country on Earth, we have qualified, educated & smart people as well as the ignorant ones. It’s just that we do not have more brave men/women. We need more heroes/heroines. You have the golden opportunity to be our hero. If you have any traces of significant wrongdoings, please expose the bad guys for us, will you?
You & a few other commentators seem to have a strong resentment against Thai military. I also don’t like what they did in the 70s’ & 90’ massacres as well as the killing of southern Muslim Thais at Grue Sae & Tak Bai. But because of their past mistakes, so you would prefer Thailand not to have arm-forces, wouldn’t you? Is it OK with you for the mighty USA, UK, Russian, Israel and China as well as Cambodia, Vietnam to have arm-forces, right?
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Khun amberwaves /#76:
I could not believe what I said “being frank & impartial” would affect you this much.
For the western media sources you mentioned, since the new stories occur in Thailand & the players or newsmakers are all Thais while the language used is Thai, how accurate will the stories be after translated from Thai to foreign languages compared to the original version? For Thai readers or foreign friends who can read & understand Thai language well, do you think which version of report (Thai or translated foreign language) they would read first? Do you think the native Thai in general will feel more at ease & open to tell their stories to foreigners or fellow Thais during the interview or conversation?
On the proof of bias, I’m glad you’re able to realize what you asked me to do by your own following statement “Perhaps it is unfair to ask you to present evidence of Matichon’s bias, since making a fair case would require presenting a lot of material.”
I would love to debate with you all day long & endlessly but I can’t because I have to work for a living. After my full time job, I have household/family duties to perform. Additionally, I’ve given fraction of my time doing voluntary work for Thai community as well while the balance is catching up with news/what happens globally. I’m not a retiree or a professional comment poster who has plenty of time to post comments everywhere arguing with others to show off one’s superiority over others.
So, instead of answering your question (So let me ask you a very simple question: What Thai media outlets presented balanced and fair reports of last year’s events, in your opinion? That would give us a benchmark to consider your judgment.), please simply tell me & other readers this. Is it more important for journalists, media and readers to have detail truthful information or balance stories even though some of the stories are not factual?
On lèse majesté
you still havent justified the abuse of power in locking up people for having an opinion contrary to your own. BTW i have never suggested my country is superior to yours, nor have i been to your country and told you what is right and wrong. However i do have the right to express my opinions on this , and any other forum, that your lese maajeste laws are repressive and inhuman. You can make all the excuses for tyranny in your country you want, but the fact remains your king is not a god nor is he, or any govt official that enforces such repression , worthy of anything but contempt.
On lèse majesté
we repeat it again:
the ‘lese majesty’ protects the thai people & their believes & the king as a symbol,
NOT as a person.
foreigners may have the excuse of not knowing the thai culture,
but thais have no excuse for mud slinging.
the occasional ‘abuse’ of a law is a matter for the courts.
you may not want ‘libel’ or ‘defamation’ to become legal,
just because they are sometimes ‘abused’.
former prime-minister samak was NOT ousted for cooking
but for breaching & neglecting the constitution he had sworn to defend.
the guy who sat during the hymne was NOT charged for sitting
but for the willful & needless provocation of sacred thai believes.
when in rome, do as the romans do!
in asia society & family are way above the individual.
if you don’t like that, stay in your supreme own country
but don’t come here to teach us what you think is wrong or right.
On lèse majesté
Good for you, tolerate you say , hardly an understanding perspective..
you say the holocaust doesn’t faze you after 60 years, your right!
but why don’t you tolerate and respect the believes of thai people?,
that is not what i said, but in fact i respect the Thai people i just do not respect on law and the Thai govts abuse of it to repress their own people.
if i would call your laws ‘repugnant’,
used to intimidate and repress me, would you be happy?
most likely you would say:
if you don’t like my laws, stay out of my home.
Actually i actively protest unfair laws in my own country too.
i even share your personal believes about religion,
but that does not allow me to go into a church & insult the worshippers.
if you shared my religious views you would never put one foot in a church, i believe they are all criminal frauds of the worst kind.
to all of you: freedom is first the freedom of others.
tolerance is not an emotion, it’s a behaviour……
freedom is freedom for everyone , that means all Thais, not just the royals.
tolerance is accepting that not everyone will like you or your point of view, yet Le Majeste doesn’t tolerate anything but nice comments pertaining to the Thai king. Thats not free nor tolerant.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Peter #74
thank you for your long response
“To me the questions that need to be asked & Thaksin must provide answers are the long list of allegations of misconduct & the absence of accountability of them that Sondhi Lim & his PAD leaders as well as other non-PAD activists have accused Thaksin & cronies were involved.”
Why should Thaksin need to provide answers to the many unsubstantiated and in most case unverifiable accusations? A few people seem to be filled with envy and greed and indulge in emotional outbursts. Why and how should a rational, reasonable human being (or lizard?) respond?
Why shouldnt the military of Thailand and their various nominee governments have to respond and be held accountable for their substantiated and verifiable criminal behaviour?
And why is not the criminal behaviour of the military a higher priority than the sundry allegations of a few?
“In the desire to live in peace & cooperation, should we allow ample opportunities for the govt leaders in power & their exclusive cronies to get rich quick in exponential amount while handling little left over for the average citizens & the poor? Should we allow them to get away with murders, abuses & widespread corruption?”
So the military, big business (eg CP, PTI, etc) and Crown Properties get rich in exponential amount, etc, etc…. I agree we should not let them get away with murders, abuses & widespread corruption!
My conclusion is that whenever Sondhi Lim, PAD, Democrats, Prem accuse anyone of something its because they are doing it themselves and have discovered that transferring the charges gets them off the hook most easily….
Your turn now I suppose….
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Portman #70
we seem to be on the wrong foot somehow… my comments about immigration were reported by Thai people and their experiences in obtaining and amending their passports
I realise that it is important subject for many non-Thais but I have only long arms length experience on the behaviour of Thai immigration and their handling of non-Thai entry and residence matters.
The fate of Suwicha Thakhor
Maybe Amnesty International will take up the case. Oh, I forgot, they don’t do lese majeste things in Thailand except by dealing with the governing elite behind closed doors.
Burmese crime magazines
Ever since late Ne Win’s BSPP or Ma-Sa-la time, the weekly and monthly crime magazines are a rare publishing phenomenon in Burma under a long and brutal military dictatorship, where the freedom of expression does not exist at all.
As long as the people committing the crimes are not part of ruling elite such as any military personnel or Party officials, the true crimes, the investigations, and the trials or even the most severe punishment such as hangings are freely allowed to be published by these magazines.
These true cases of crime have opened a rare window to have a glimpse at the tightly-closed Burma and her people even though the distorted view is through the shade of violent crimes.
Many a police officers and prison wardens who are able to write well have also become the most famous authors of Burmese society because of that rare freedom in Burma.
A friendly reception
Re Srithanonchai’s half-truth,
“It’s not Thaksin who buys votes. It’s the candidates in the provinces…”
As widely reported in 2006, Thakin was controlling the Senate by (amongst other means) paying senators 50,000 baht per month to vote as he wished.
There’s the Thai genius for ‘indirect’ methods right there.
Moreover, it seems Mr. Srithanonchai may take after his namesake in the art of clever deception rather more than he would have us realize.
Frank Lee / Bangkok
Abhisit’s talk in Oxford: From the inside
Re the main article and SAKTINA vs feudalism
Although the exact details may be a little hazy, as I recall reading in Craig J. Reynold’s book on Jit Poomisak, there is a discussion of the distinction that should be made between the western concept of feudalism (which it is suggested could be construed as seditious) and the Pali/Thai concept of SAKTINA (the use of this term which, it is noted in the book, has never been the cause of a lese majeste charges.
Frank Lee / Bangkok
On lèse majesté
[quote]Stephan, you are wrong about the ‘guy’. The King does not prosecute lese majeste cases himself. In fact, he has expressed dismay that this law is abused for political purposes. He has pardoned many lese majeste violators.[/quote]
That raises an interesting point: We all know about the high profile farang cases which get the attention of the international press, but:
1. Has the King ever pardoned a Thai convicted of lese majeste. If so, how recently and how often ?
2. Has the King ever attempted to end the punitive practice of denying bail in lese majeste cases, in effect punishing people with imprisonment no matter what trial result or pardon follows ?
3. Has the King ever specifically called upon Parliament or the Judiciary to alter or reform the the lese majeste laws to prevent their abuse ?
It seems to be that the institution wants its cake and eat it too. It purports to have decried (in one speech made over a reign of six decades ) the abuse of lese majeste, but has does nothing to correct the situation, other than to “pardon” people who have already been severely punished by pre-trial imprisonment without bail.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Peter said: “As for the evidence on lie & slander, all you need to do is compare Matichon’s reports against other sources over time & on consistent basis.”
Can you tell us what other sources you mean? I have trouble coming up with a single Thai media source that would not be considered biased (mostly pro-PAD). If you compare Matichon to reports by Western media, the Straits Times and the Third World news service IPS, Matichon does not appear to be pro-Thaksin at all.
Matichon *does* provide a diversity of opinion, something the PAD crowd doesn’t believe in.
Perhaps it is unfair to ask you to present evidence of Matichon’s bias, since making a fair case would require presenting a lot of material.
So let me ask you a very simple question: What Thai media outlets presented balanced and fair reports of last year’s events, in your opinion? That would give us a benchmark to consider your judgment.