hclau # 30 I am fully aware of the tax laws on equity investments in Thailand (Malaysia seems irrelevant here), having been actively involved with the SET for over 20 years. Actually your account is incomplete as you didn’t mention that capital gains on equities are taxable (as personal or corporate income) in the case of unlisted equities or on listed equities not transacted through the market and that capital gains on all equity transactions made by all juristic persons, not just brokers, are taxable as corporate income, except mutual funds and unless subject to a double tax treaty in the case of a foreign juristic person.
However, what I suggested was that, if Thaksin had made a voluntary donation of tax on the Shin Corp deal, he would probably be PM today and might not be reduced to the status of an incoherent “phone-in” whinger. It was the unseemly tax free profit made while in office that created most of the impetus of public opinion that facilitated Thaksin’s ouster and it is the “tax issue” that is still most often cited today, even though there was indeed legally no tax due. Curiously, the the nationalism issue of selling out to the Singaporeans was quickly forgotten and nobody cares anymore that the Singaporean and Norwegian governments effectively own the Thai mobile phone sector between them through structures that are clearly illegal under both the Foreign Business Act and the Telecoms Act.
In fact there probably was a taxable event when the block of shares owned by Ample Rich was transferred to Thaksin’s children after Temasek disappointed Thaksin who had not bothered to tidy up the offshore structure because he had been poorly advised that a buyer would agree to buy Ample Rich with the Shin Corp shares in it, despite obvious money laundering concerns when the only interested buyers were foreign state enterprises. The sale of Ample Rich’s shares to the Thaksin children was done off market, in which case the tax exemption didn’t apply, and the beneficiary was a juristic person domiciled in the BVI which has no tax treaty with Thailand meaning that its capital gains on Thai equities, even on listed equities transacted through the market, are fully taxable. The irony is that public opinion didn’t object to this trade done by Thaksin at a fake price to evade tax (because it was not obvious to many), while he effectively got the boot for not paying tax that was not due on the onshore trades (because the moral injustice was so obvious). Even though there is indeed no mechanism for voluntary payment of tax that is not due, Thaksin is a clever chap and could no doubt have found a way to set up a fund that would have been beneficial to needy segments of Thai society, unlike the fund for the promotion of democracy he has set up abroad. Many “seriously big hearted rich guys in Thailand” have set up charitable foundations and Thaksin could easily have consulted some of them for advice. As it happened, he resented the call to share some of the booty largely earned while he was PM and in a position to benefit Shin Corp. He made his own judgment call and managed to avoid the “tax”. Now he is where he is and the proceeds from the sale are where they are.
David Brown #31, is there any evidence to suggest that Thaksin himself didn’t place any pressure on the Constitutional Court judges in his asset concealment trial?
Hclau #26 – not “AT” or “BT” – just from Black May 1992 and aftermaths, then 1997 Constitution, then PMChuan as first civilian Minister of Defense and the breaking of the sacred seniority tradition in the Army Commander post of appointing GenSurayud ,who was 6 years from retirement age, before many much more senior generals (with the objective of reform and continuity). The last issue alone could have been enough for a coup in the years of military dominance in politics (remember even PMPrem wasn’t safe from coups) – and reflected the military’s significantly reduced power and political clout. If only PMThaksin worked to the roadmap and spirit of the 1997 Constitution, we will not be in the mess we are in now. Thankfully, we’ll know in these next few days, what PMThaksin and the Reds have left in their tanks. The faster the conclusion of Thaksin/Red, the faster the rise of the talented Mr.Newin…
of course Thaksins success in the “highly suspect Constitutional Court victory in the “honest mistake” assets concealment case. ” was just another case of Prem manipulating the courts (cant keep his sticky fingers off)
it seems that Prem thought Thaksin would be useful but in the event its just another case of “blowback”
like the Americans supporting Saddam and Osama… Prem and the CIA are similar, probably one trained the other
Oh by the way, not sure I understand jonfernquest’s reference to Lucius Cornelius Sulla. Sounded like someone not engaged sufficiently at the ground level and too ivory-tower-esque and maybe even faux-Marxist-drivellist in inspiration. However, worth listening to, perhaps (source for some of the words in the 2nd sentence: post 19, 20 Mar 2009, http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/2009/03/19/the-ivory-tower-democrac-and-all-that-jazz/).
If you read/believe The Nation, of course Thaksin’s popularity is slipping but wait for tomorrow (26 March) and see how the huge forces of democracy (including Thaksin supporters) will be unleashed. The Red Shirts phenomenon is scarcely mentioned in the mainstream media, including the pro-military and pro-ammart The Nation (I stopped buying The Nation to save my money even though I still read its online version to see how it tells lies and twists the news). To those outside Thailand, I want to encourage you to type this URL http://www.dstation.tv and listen to the voice of democracy currently gaining momentum in this country.
jonfernquest questions Panlop’s mental state and credibility and claims that corroborating evidence is required. Oppai provides some. There is more at Bangkok Pundit and Political Prisoners in Thailand.
Actually, Panlop as and ISOC person, until Thaksin removed him, seems to be a person who was in the right place to know what was going on.
Historical documents on all this are probably going to be hard to come by, but if participants like Sonthi Lim, Panlop, and General Saprang are not reliable, then who might be?
People like James have no interest in democracy or peoples’s rights. His group has been awarded the game, so can say anything they want. It is up to outside observers to see them for what they are. Denial is their main intellectual asset.
ps – I guess James think the owner of the largest whorehouse in bangkok is the best person to be trade minister – the experience and all that, you know
Are we back on the tax thing again? There is no tax on equity capital gains in Thailand or Malaysia. Plenty of literature on that subject. If you are a brokerage, the tax is a business profit tax, not a tax on capital gains. Please list any one in the Democratic or PAD or maybe any of your friend who paid any tax on stock trade or share sales?? or have I miss some seriously big hearted rich guy in Thailand who had volunteered to pay tax on non-taxable income. – Incidently there isn’t even a mechanism for that!
I have no idea who Ralph Kramden is, or how he purports to know me or however he justifies his outlandish claim that I am somehow “yellow” in this dispute. I am friends with Somsak Kosaisook, and worked with the SERC to get their union rights back after the NPKC stripped the state enterprise workers of their rights to form unions — but I am also a good friend with Jakrapob Penkair, who I have been close with as the coordinator of the Johns Hopkins SAIS group in Thailand. If Ralph, or whoever, wished to ask either of them about me, they would probably both assume I was sympathetic to them — when in fact, I have been pretty much neutral. The fact that I remain good friends with them, and other Thais on both sides of the dispute, indicates this. What I am clear on — having dealt plenty with Ji Giles when he was trying to organize his study groups of wannabe Marxist-Leninist students — was that he was never able to generate a crowd of more than 100 people. And also that he regularly used over the top language that was designed to offend rather than persuade. If that is not the definition of a gad-fly, then I am not sure what is. Ralph, before you start characterizing the views of other people that you don’t know personally, why don’t you tell the rest of us what you actually think on the divide.
Saying the military was on the back foot and saying they were depoliticised is entirely different. Some analysts such as Ukrist spend considerable time trying to understand the military’s political position and roles. His work on the 2006 coup and the royalist military is worth considering again.
At the same time, it is also worth considering Prem’s role in maintaining the military’s political position.
Hclau #26. “In case you don’t remember, the judges and court officials were hand picked by the military and have a penchant to interprete “laws” according to its master’s desires.” If this is the case, then Thaksin must appreciate the irony of it in the light of how he became PM in the first place through his highly suspect Constitutional Court victory in the “honest mistake” assets concealment case.
I would say that the military, while certainly not out of the picture althogether, was very much on the back foot in politics after the disastrous 1992 massacres put an end to their hopes of restoring the hybrid democracy of the 80s under Prem. Thaksin had the power reduce their influence even further but, instead, played into their hands due to his own greed. If he had just made a voluntary donation of tax on Shin Corp deal, he would probably still be PM today.
To my way of thinking, any objective study of Thailand’s experiment in democracy since the revolution of 1932 , most of which has come under the reign of one man, can only be seen as an attempt by reactionary pro-monarchist forces to use the crown to cripple the development of populist democracy, through political manipulation of a weak multi-party system populated with venal politicians, or governments imposed by coup d’etat, frequently with tacit royal approval.
Given the secrecy of Thai palace life, the carefully nurtured cult of personality surrounding it, and the fanatical taboo against any discussion of its involvement in politics, the degree to which the royals have been directly involved in many critical events for the past 50 years may never be known. Indeed, we may know more about the intrigues of the Caesars than the Ramas, given the black hole in Thai history left by the force of lese majeste.
What is clear, however, is that Thai monarchists, unlike their counterparts in Europe and elsewhere, have shown little interest in accommodating the role of a truly constitutional monarch to the sovereign will of the people in democracy. More likely than not, one can only speculate that the whispers heard more often within Bangkok’s palaces among the faithful have been : “Who will rid us of these troublesome elections.”
The credibility of the source of this information is questionable.
For General Panlop Pinmanee, one could pull quotes from newspapers where he makes himself out to be a hired gun. He explicitly states that he switched sides from yellow shirts to red shirts after not getting what he wanted. There is even one quote where he seems to threaten the life of a Prime Minister serving in office. Then there is also the Krue Se mosque incident. Mental stability might even be an issue.
In short, General Panlop Pinmanee could hardly be taken as a credible source if one was writing history. One would need additional corroborating sources. Furthermore, this source comes secondhand from Thaksin acting in desperation, trying to stir up and muster his forces together in the provinces (the 21st century equivalent of Lucius Cornelius Sulla).
PMThaksin finally squeaks and more details are promised tomorrow. Ofcourse, the challenge is to differentiate between fact and fiction – as a desparate, cornered and clearly ‘untamed’ dog will say anything – and blame everyone else but himself – for personal survival.
By publicly coming out in this personal manner may do much more harm than good for his own cause of returning to politics in Thailand. Would it have been easier for PMThaksin to come back and face his jail term and the pending court cases – so facts can be determined from the Red said, Yellow said, Thaksin said, Surayud said scenario that we are experiencing now?
Yes, he would probably get an extended jail term beyond the two years of the first case – but it is the public sympathy that he can build upon and milk for its maximum effect which he was once so good at. He can even lay claim to sacrificing in the service of the rule of law, a fundamental democratic ingredient.
As commentators have been saying, time and again, since early in his regime, he is tripping, yet again, on his own impatience. Good, well meaning advice is not taken but rather advice that suits his delusions and impatience from the questionable, self-interested Red leadership (as PMSamak seem to also observed). My guess it that he won’t even take advise from his own wife and hence the divorce and differing approach to fight their court cases (ofcourse, KYPotjaman’s low profile, translucent, soft and sweet approach is arguably more dangerous to justice. It takes more time, but she has a greater chance of escaping the charges).
This is MuayWat (‘temple boxing’) as some commentators put it. He has shut his eyes and is throwing a flurry of swings at his more organized opponents, hoping one will land a knock-out blow. However, even a worse case scenario of Red civil unrest in Bangkok tomorrow will only take down one or two opponents and many of his sweared enemies will remain standing while he is drained of most of his resources (unless ofcourse, he has not put all his money in tomorrow’s pot). Remember, the PAD and Newin’s Phumjai Thai are not even on the ring in this round…
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UDD – where to?
Just a small note;
No military man in Thailand actually “retires”. That’s the reason they are still refered to as General “so & so”, Colonel “so & so” etc.
In other countries, they are refered to as General (rtd) so&so. RTD being retired. never see that in Thailand.
UDD – where to?
hclau # 30 I am fully aware of the tax laws on equity investments in Thailand (Malaysia seems irrelevant here), having been actively involved with the SET for over 20 years. Actually your account is incomplete as you didn’t mention that capital gains on equities are taxable (as personal or corporate income) in the case of unlisted equities or on listed equities not transacted through the market and that capital gains on all equity transactions made by all juristic persons, not just brokers, are taxable as corporate income, except mutual funds and unless subject to a double tax treaty in the case of a foreign juristic person.
However, what I suggested was that, if Thaksin had made a voluntary donation of tax on the Shin Corp deal, he would probably be PM today and might not be reduced to the status of an incoherent “phone-in” whinger. It was the unseemly tax free profit made while in office that created most of the impetus of public opinion that facilitated Thaksin’s ouster and it is the “tax issue” that is still most often cited today, even though there was indeed legally no tax due. Curiously, the the nationalism issue of selling out to the Singaporeans was quickly forgotten and nobody cares anymore that the Singaporean and Norwegian governments effectively own the Thai mobile phone sector between them through structures that are clearly illegal under both the Foreign Business Act and the Telecoms Act.
In fact there probably was a taxable event when the block of shares owned by Ample Rich was transferred to Thaksin’s children after Temasek disappointed Thaksin who had not bothered to tidy up the offshore structure because he had been poorly advised that a buyer would agree to buy Ample Rich with the Shin Corp shares in it, despite obvious money laundering concerns when the only interested buyers were foreign state enterprises. The sale of Ample Rich’s shares to the Thaksin children was done off market, in which case the tax exemption didn’t apply, and the beneficiary was a juristic person domiciled in the BVI which has no tax treaty with Thailand meaning that its capital gains on Thai equities, even on listed equities transacted through the market, are fully taxable. The irony is that public opinion didn’t object to this trade done by Thaksin at a fake price to evade tax (because it was not obvious to many), while he effectively got the boot for not paying tax that was not due on the onshore trades (because the moral injustice was so obvious). Even though there is indeed no mechanism for voluntary payment of tax that is not due, Thaksin is a clever chap and could no doubt have found a way to set up a fund that would have been beneficial to needy segments of Thai society, unlike the fund for the promotion of democracy he has set up abroad. Many “seriously big hearted rich guys in Thailand” have set up charitable foundations and Thaksin could easily have consulted some of them for advice. As it happened, he resented the call to share some of the booty largely earned while he was PM and in a position to benefit Shin Corp. He made his own judgment call and managed to avoid the “tax”. Now he is where he is and the proceeds from the sale are where they are.
David Brown #31, is there any evidence to suggest that Thaksin himself didn’t place any pressure on the Constitutional Court judges in his asset concealment trial?
UDD – where to?
Hclau #26 – not “AT” or “BT” – just from Black May 1992 and aftermaths, then 1997 Constitution, then PMChuan as first civilian Minister of Defense and the breaking of the sacred seniority tradition in the Army Commander post of appointing GenSurayud ,who was 6 years from retirement age, before many much more senior generals (with the objective of reform and continuity). The last issue alone could have been enough for a coup in the years of military dominance in politics (remember even PMPrem wasn’t safe from coups) – and reflected the military’s significantly reduced power and political clout. If only PMThaksin worked to the roadmap and spirit of the 1997 Constitution, we will not be in the mess we are in now. Thankfully, we’ll know in these next few days, what PMThaksin and the Reds have left in their tanks. The faster the conclusion of Thaksin/Red, the faster the rise of the talented Mr.Newin…
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
In his Time interview on 6 March, Thaksin said two things about the Sukumwit meeting.
First, that he would soon name names. He’s done that.
Second, that he has a recording of the meeting….
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
jonfernquest #12
apparently its Sondhi in a 2006 speech in the USA (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRnYDFUvGrM) that provides the corroborating evidence
he also mentions Busapa which is interesting in the light of rumours that Sondhi may be linked to the Royal Family in some perhaps blackmailable way
its a mess and the sooner these people are in gaol or neutered in some way the better
UDD – where to?
Portman #27
of course Thaksins success in the “highly suspect Constitutional Court victory in the “honest mistake” assets concealment case. ” was just another case of Prem manipulating the courts (cant keep his sticky fingers off)
it seems that Prem thought Thaksin would be useful but in the event its just another case of “blowback”
like the Americans supporting Saddam and Osama… Prem and the CIA are similar, probably one trained the other
“Rural no more”
If the money is in the cities then surely that explains all you need to know? Or… are we looking at an unofficial reversal of Khmer Rouge policies
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
Oh by the way, not sure I understand jonfernquest’s reference to Lucius Cornelius Sulla. Sounded like someone not engaged sufficiently at the ground level and too ivory-tower-esque and maybe even faux-Marxist-drivellist in inspiration. However, worth listening to, perhaps (source for some of the words in the 2nd sentence: post 19, 20 Mar 2009, http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/2009/03/19/the-ivory-tower-democrac-and-all-that-jazz/).
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
If you read/believe The Nation, of course Thaksin’s popularity is slipping but wait for tomorrow (26 March) and see how the huge forces of democracy (including Thaksin supporters) will be unleashed. The Red Shirts phenomenon is scarcely mentioned in the mainstream media, including the pro-military and pro-ammart The Nation (I stopped buying The Nation to save my money even though I still read its online version to see how it tells lies and twists the news). To those outside Thailand, I want to encourage you to type this URL http://www.dstation.tv and listen to the voice of democracy currently gaining momentum in this country.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
jonfernquest questions Panlop’s mental state and credibility and claims that corroborating evidence is required. Oppai provides some. There is more at Bangkok Pundit and Political Prisoners in Thailand.
Actually, Panlop as and ISOC person, until Thaksin removed him, seems to be a person who was in the right place to know what was going on.
Historical documents on all this are probably going to be hard to come by, but if participants like Sonthi Lim, Panlop, and General Saprang are not reliable, then who might be?
Full text of Abhisit speech in Oxford
Well Noi,
People like James have no interest in democracy or peoples’s rights. His group has been awarded the game, so can say anything they want. It is up to outside observers to see them for what they are. Denial is their main intellectual asset.
ps – I guess James think the owner of the largest whorehouse in bangkok is the best person to be trade minister – the experience and all that, you know
UDD – where to?
Hello Portman,
Are we back on the tax thing again? There is no tax on equity capital gains in Thailand or Malaysia. Plenty of literature on that subject. If you are a brokerage, the tax is a business profit tax, not a tax on capital gains. Please list any one in the Democratic or PAD or maybe any of your friend who paid any tax on stock trade or share sales?? or have I miss some seriously big hearted rich guy in Thailand who had volunteered to pay tax on non-taxable income. – Incidently there isn’t even a mechanism for that!
UDD – where to?
I have no idea who Ralph Kramden is, or how he purports to know me or however he justifies his outlandish claim that I am somehow “yellow” in this dispute. I am friends with Somsak Kosaisook, and worked with the SERC to get their union rights back after the NPKC stripped the state enterprise workers of their rights to form unions — but I am also a good friend with Jakrapob Penkair, who I have been close with as the coordinator of the Johns Hopkins SAIS group in Thailand. If Ralph, or whoever, wished to ask either of them about me, they would probably both assume I was sympathetic to them — when in fact, I have been pretty much neutral. The fact that I remain good friends with them, and other Thais on both sides of the dispute, indicates this. What I am clear on — having dealt plenty with Ji Giles when he was trying to organize his study groups of wannabe Marxist-Leninist students — was that he was never able to generate a crowd of more than 100 people. And also that he regularly used over the top language that was designed to offend rather than persuade. If that is not the definition of a gad-fly, then I am not sure what is. Ralph, before you start characterizing the views of other people that you don’t know personally, why don’t you tell the rest of us what you actually think on the divide.
UDD – where to?
Saying the military was on the back foot and saying they were depoliticised is entirely different. Some analysts such as Ukrist spend considerable time trying to understand the military’s political position and roles. His work on the 2006 coup and the royalist military is worth considering again.
At the same time, it is also worth considering Prem’s role in maintaining the military’s political position.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
“….political manipulation of a weak multi-party system populated with venal politicians….”
Did the venal outnumber the others?
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
The challenge to the Privy Council seems to require a response. It will be interesting to see what this will be.
UDD – where to?
Hclau #26. “In case you don’t remember, the judges and court officials were hand picked by the military and have a penchant to interprete “laws” according to its master’s desires.” If this is the case, then Thaksin must appreciate the irony of it in the light of how he became PM in the first place through his highly suspect Constitutional Court victory in the “honest mistake” assets concealment case.
I would say that the military, while certainly not out of the picture althogether, was very much on the back foot in politics after the disastrous 1992 massacres put an end to their hopes of restoring the hybrid democracy of the 80s under Prem. Thaksin had the power reduce their influence even further but, instead, played into their hands due to his own greed. If he had just made a voluntary donation of tax on Shin Corp deal, he would probably still be PM today.
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
To my way of thinking, any objective study of Thailand’s experiment in democracy since the revolution of 1932 , most of which has come under the reign of one man, can only be seen as an attempt by reactionary pro-monarchist forces to use the crown to cripple the development of populist democracy, through political manipulation of a weak multi-party system populated with venal politicians, or governments imposed by coup d’etat, frequently with tacit royal approval.
Given the secrecy of Thai palace life, the carefully nurtured cult of personality surrounding it, and the fanatical taboo against any discussion of its involvement in politics, the degree to which the royals have been directly involved in many critical events for the past 50 years may never be known. Indeed, we may know more about the intrigues of the Caesars than the Ramas, given the black hole in Thai history left by the force of lese majeste.
What is clear, however, is that Thai monarchists, unlike their counterparts in Europe and elsewhere, have shown little interest in accommodating the role of a truly constitutional monarch to the sovereign will of the people in democracy. More likely than not, one can only speculate that the whispers heard more often within Bangkok’s palaces among the faithful have been : “Who will rid us of these troublesome elections.”
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
The credibility of the source of this information is questionable.
For General Panlop Pinmanee, one could pull quotes from newspapers where he makes himself out to be a hired gun. He explicitly states that he switched sides from yellow shirts to red shirts after not getting what he wanted. There is even one quote where he seems to threaten the life of a Prime Minister serving in office. Then there is also the Krue Se mosque incident. Mental stability might even be an issue.
In short, General Panlop Pinmanee could hardly be taken as a credible source if one was writing history. One would need additional corroborating sources. Furthermore, this source comes secondhand from Thaksin acting in desperation, trying to stir up and muster his forces together in the provinces (the 21st century equivalent of Lucius Cornelius Sulla).
901, royal politics and Thaksin Shinawatra
PMThaksin finally squeaks and more details are promised tomorrow. Ofcourse, the challenge is to differentiate between fact and fiction – as a desparate, cornered and clearly ‘untamed’ dog will say anything – and blame everyone else but himself – for personal survival.
By publicly coming out in this personal manner may do much more harm than good for his own cause of returning to politics in Thailand. Would it have been easier for PMThaksin to come back and face his jail term and the pending court cases – so facts can be determined from the Red said, Yellow said, Thaksin said, Surayud said scenario that we are experiencing now?
Yes, he would probably get an extended jail term beyond the two years of the first case – but it is the public sympathy that he can build upon and milk for its maximum effect which he was once so good at. He can even lay claim to sacrificing in the service of the rule of law, a fundamental democratic ingredient.
As commentators have been saying, time and again, since early in his regime, he is tripping, yet again, on his own impatience. Good, well meaning advice is not taken but rather advice that suits his delusions and impatience from the questionable, self-interested Red leadership (as PMSamak seem to also observed). My guess it that he won’t even take advise from his own wife and hence the divorce and differing approach to fight their court cases (ofcourse, KYPotjaman’s low profile, translucent, soft and sweet approach is arguably more dangerous to justice. It takes more time, but she has a greater chance of escaping the charges).
This is MuayWat (‘temple boxing’) as some commentators put it. He has shut his eyes and is throwing a flurry of swings at his more organized opponents, hoping one will land a knock-out blow. However, even a worse case scenario of Red civil unrest in Bangkok tomorrow will only take down one or two opponents and many of his sweared enemies will remain standing while he is drained of most of his resources (unless ofcourse, he has not put all his money in tomorrow’s pot). Remember, the PAD and Newin’s Phumjai Thai are not even on the ring in this round…