This is certainly a positive local development – the only way LM reform must be worked out, transparently and participatively from within Thai society. At the very least, this abuse of LM by Thai elites in their Red-Yellow civil war must end. On the other hand, this effort must not be prioritized over the more critical reforms needed for the practical working of Thai democracy.
The fact that the event is being organized and will occur this weekend already says a lot about freedom of speech and critical discourse, at least in Thai academia on the matter, contrary to the many harsh, extreme and unfair commentaries (“no democracy”, “banning of opposing viewpoints”). Ofcourse if the meeting suddenly gets raid by policemen or participants gets slapped with LM that would be unfortunate (but, on the other hand, catalyst for real change from within – not the flee and attack from abroad tactics of PMThaksin/AjarnGiles, the boss of the Reds and its self-proclaimed intellectual mouthpiece).
My previous fear was that AjarnGile’s action has derailed the process as his extreme republican sentiments has clearly provided the more conservative elements in Thai society (often working in security agencies it seems) with ample ammunition to shoot down any progressive move. A fear also expressed in the comment section in Prachatai:
From my perspective teaching in a Thai university, I grew to loath and despise the Farang contingent of so-called experts flying in for the five day advisory junket as part of so-called “foreign aid” to tell all the locals what do.
What actually happens is that the locals (and us locally based and compensated Farang) sit around and listen to the Farang experts who are really clueless and not helpful at all because they don’t have enough on the ground knowledge to know what they are talking about (exemplified perfectly by the so-called realm of images hill tribe displacement article by these blog authors based on media reports). [One particular meeting stands out, when we were supposed to present our plan to educate hundreds of second year university students, meeting ended up consumed in the personal argument between s female PhD Farang expert from Univ Oregon dueling with a much less paid lower status female PhD Thai educated at University of Wisconsin, by the end of their duel everyone had forgot what the meeting was about]
The reality is that foreign institutions will be at the top of the heap in Thailand prestige-wise, for sure, but until they become more engaged at the ground level and less ivory-tower-esque faux-Marxist-drivellists, forget it, they are just not worth listening to.
Here is the New York Times article when the esteemed professor pleaded guilty to the two felony counts for funneling $690,000 in illegal donations to the (U.S.) Democratic party:
It occurs to me that jonfernquest should write the Thai version of “I Know What You Did Last Summer,” with the dangerous, horrible secret held by the teens in this one being that they attended a prestigious Western university.
It would be very pleasant filming in the summer at Oxford, Cornell, Madison or Berkeley. I’d go see it, I promise!
Well put Hua Hin Dave! Thank you for a very good attempt at capturing the complexity of Thai politics as ‘played out’ through the years rather than as ‘imagined’ by many in NM…
As for PMAbhisit, at the end of day, he is a politician – and I argue, more in the mould of an opportunistic Western politician with a complexly negotiated power base than the typical Thai ‘ThaoKae’, Capitalist-Mafia politician model where the main investor ‘owns’ the party and makes the key decisions. If I am not wrong, the Democrats invented the ‘Mr.Clean’ party leader paired with a ‘Mr.Dirty’ (but powerful) secretary-general with the PMChuan-Sanan partnership and now PMAbhisit-Suthep (if you look at the recent donations to the Democrat party, Suthep actually donated almost half of the total if I am not wrong). PMAbhisit may or may not be sincere about what he says or political reform, but even if he is serious he will have to convince the ‘kingmaker’ first who will also have to convince the ‘kingmaker’ of the ‘kingmaker’ Newin, who is the founder of the Reds, PMThaksin’s street supporters that AjarnGiles supports(!!!) and who probably have aspirations for the top post himself etc…etc…
Ah, the intrigues and complexities of Thai politics. Does AjarnGiles address these issues seriously enough? Does the foriegn academics invest enough time on this? Sadly, no on both counts. But this is one of the main mode in which the decisions that directly affect Thai politics/democracy and its future evolution are made. AjarnGiles and the foriegn academics have simplistically reduce Thai Democracy to Les Majeste law – a law that is the least of most Thai’s worries anyway… If you ask Thais to list the top 10 things they want their leaders to address – where would Les Majeste law reform come in? Interestingly, from their words and actions, it seem to top AjarnGiles and the the respectable foriegn academics’ list. If you ask democracy advocates, activists and fighters in Myanmar, Cambodia, Zimbabwe etc. – what will they say?
“Unlike most commentators here I actually have the luck to live in Thailand, and have done since 2001. I feel, therefore, a little more qualified to comment on democracy or its lack in Thailand.”
Yawn.
Let’s see, Paul Handley, author of The King Never Smiles was in Thailand for 13 years, making him 1.625 times more qualified than you to comment, and my humble self has been here for about 24 years, making me 3 times more qualified than you, right?. And I don’t live in a “dreaming spire” or “ivory tower” — not even a high-rise condo.
So, perhaps NM should have a ratings system, in which commentators include a index based on number of years in Thailand minus time spent at a university. Should Thai nationality be factored in, and how do we treat Thais who have been “tainted” by their time at a university abroad — double points off?
The silly claim for expertise aside, Hua Hin Dave’s comments lay out a reasonable case – though one I disagree with. Most of his various points have already been addressed at length on this blog, so I won’t bother.
One minor point I think should be addressed for the record. When you say “The fact you used your own children as unwitting innocent political photo op shills is appalling,” you might note that this follows the model set by the PAD since 2006.
PAD parents of course also brought their small children to situations where they admitted they expected violence in the form of police attacks (most notably, the airport occupation).
But of course as someone who has lived here since 2001, you already knew that, right?
And to be the devil’s advocate how about:
15. Wise Meddling Westerners in Western “Ivory Towers” with Specific Agenda Pretending to be Ignorant (WMWW”IT”wSAPtbI)
It seems KhunPornpimol must have an interesting past – which work both to her advantage (‘in the thick of things’ – or to use academic fieldwork language ‘participant observant’) and disadvantage (‘skeletons in the closet’) in this context.
Observer, lets not try to reduce the complex phenomenon that is Thai society/politics (or any society for that matter) as it can be quite misleading. I propose (at least):
1. Wise Elite = W E
2. Corrupt Elite = C E
3. Wise and Corrupt Elite = W C E
4. Ignorant and Corrupt Elite = I C E
5. Ignorant populace (urban) = I P (u)
6. Wise populace (urban) = W P (u)
7. Ignorant populace (rural) = I P (r)
8. Wise populace (rural) = W P (r)
9. Wise Meddling Westerners = W M W
10. Ignorant Meddling Westerners = I M W
11. Wise Meddling Westerners (living in Thailand)= W M W (liT)
12. Ignorant Meddling Westerners (in Western “Ivory Towers”)= I M W (W”IT”)
13. Tourists = T
14. …etc…etc…
The permutations are endless, really (e.g. the elites in 1 to 4 may or may not have social, financial, weaponry capital – and the same people may even fall into more than one conflicting categories!)…
Yes, in reduction, you get quick interesting synthesis which may not necessarily be correct and /or accurate…
You know, living in Thailand for 8 years or 20 years or whatever does give you more legitimacy than other people here.
If you talk about “Majority rule = abuse of power” then what about “Minority rule =??? ) in term of vote buying Abhisit is as guilty here, how do you think he lure Newin camp to his side?? yeah …..
And you talk about transparent in Abhisit government??? WHAT ARE YOU JOKING ABOUT???
A PAD leader is serving as a minister
rotten fish
rotten milk
immigrat abuse
money that appear from no where and dissapear somewhere
yeah, that’s really convincing….
And you said Abhisit is more open to discuss? I think that will be really hard to accomplish because many of his opposition is being charge for lese majeste and many had run away from Thailand, now who will dare to go against him??
I am concerned about the apparently haphazard nature of these problems. If anyone out there has suggestions on why, say, Alec gets fake 404 errors and Yeti doesn’t then I am all ears.
We will probably continue to use the phrase “lese majeste” in some of our post titles.
And if there are ever any dramatic changes to your ability to access NM please let us know.
If you adjust the terms of the acronym to Wise Intellectuals, Peasant Elements and Meddlesome Europeans, it becomes “Wipe Me!” which is even more memorable.
My True ADSL connection regularly gives a false 404 Error message for any page that contains ‘lese majeste’ (with or without accents). This is true of Google and Wikipedia as well as NM and the other regular suspects. (I am therefore only able to access this page through a proxy server.)
Since other True users report no problems, I am beginning to suspect that the ‘lese majeste’ trigger works when certain blacklisted IP addresses attempt access. (Such paranoid times.)
These false messages seem to be triggered simply by the string ‘lese majeste’ (so it also blocks my access to pro-lm sites). ‘LM’ as a string does not trigger the blocking. Since all NM readers are in the know, could I suggest that page titles use ‘LM’ rather than ‘lese majeste’?
Or would such an abrreviation itself constitute LM?
I mean, lese majeste.
@14 nganadeeleg
it’s all about believes, if you share them or not.
this ‘guy’ is king, semi-devine, head of the buddhists in thailand. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhumibol_Adulyadej
one can compare him with nobody else,
coz nobody else is so much respected and loved by his people,
even not the pope.
@13 Ralph Kramden
you are not fair. it’s a fact, that most people have some kind of ‘majesty’
(greatness = to be respected above everyhing else).
few examples were used:
christians have jesus,
muslims have mohammad,
some have nothing,
some have their children
and thais have their believes, including the king.
none of them likes it,
when others insult them by pretending that their believes are worthless.
the worst offenders are the u.s.a.:
there a doctor was convicted to 25 years in prison for nothing else
but for agreeing to provide medical treatment to wounded! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafiq_Abdus_Sabir
john lennon was shot dead in new york
and your list from guantanamo does not contain any reasons,
why these people were detained (a major reason for critics)
although many agree with you, that holocaust-denial should not be a crime,
it’s a german ‘lese majesty law’, protecting the ‘majesty of german teachings’.
@12 Jason Geddes
you say you are non believer, we tolerate this
you say the holocaust doesn’t faze you after 60 years, your right!
but why don’t you tolerate and respect the believes of thai people?
if i would call your laws ‘repugnant’,
used to intimidate and repress me, would you be happy?
most likely you would say:
if you don’t like my laws, stay out of my home.
i even share your personal believes about religion,
but that does not allow me to go into a church & insult the worshippers.
to all of you: freedom is first the freedom of others.
tolerance is not an emotion, it’s a behaviour……
Jack, you should let everyone know about your You-Tube video postings, where people can see you and hear about the humanitarian projects which you and that lady from Quebec, Canada got underway and what those bastards (SPDC/DKBA) did to destroy what you both worked on in the Karen State.
I don’t know nothing about the war being “over” with as the enemy is now trying to sell to the world. It’s just getting started.
I continue to receive e-mails and phone calls from people all over the globe, who want to help the Karen National Liberation Army.
This is another “classic” argument from an elitist Thai perspective.
In summary:
“Our country is not as advanced as yours (farang’s) because our people, excluding the elitist intellectuals, are too ignorant. Only the elite (and intellecuals like me) know what democracy is. Therefore let us educate our ignorant populace and guide them to maturity first. Meanwhile, you, the outsiders, don’t understand our situation and often impose your own standard to judge others. You should stop meddling with us.”
The three main components of this discourse are:
1. Wise Elite = W E
2. Ignorant populace = I P
3. Meddling Westerners = M W
The whole article could have been shortened by saying “WEIPMW “, signed the author.
1: This is the view from the palace, that politicians are necessarily corrupt: “We the people never have a real chance at democracy because all politicians do not care for it. They use it as lip service, as a means to legitimise their agendas and their looting. If they believed in it, we would not be where we are today.”
2. “Polly” Pornpimol of course embraced this view well during her period as a “journalist” — make that “powerbroker/lobbyist” — in Washington — http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1997_Special_Investigation_in_Connection_with_1996_Federal_Election_Campaigns/Section_7
Incidentally, whereas Abhisit answered Prof Giles in a civilised and somewhat humorous manner, here is what the answers would have probably sounded like had they come care of our two previous Prime Ministers, based on 10 moths of observing them in action when faced with the media:
SAMAK:
“What You Say? I no hear you….your mouth full of (insert expletive). What are you? Gay man? You wear lipstick gay boy? You not even Thai…you British!”
(Note: Samaks usual approach when faced with stiff questions was to directly assault the journalists sexuality, race or nationality.)
SOMCHAI:
“ermmmm……its the fault of the PAD terrorists…..eeeerrrmmmm…..scuse me, I just have to call my boss and see what he thinks…..”
(runs and hides in public toilet whilst calling Thaksin).
Unlike most commentators here I actually have the luck to live in Thailand, and have done since 2001. I feel, therefore, a little more qualified to comment on democracy or its lack in Thailand.
Under the “majority vote = abuse of power” regime headed by Thaksin democracy took a massive step back. Thaksin and his TRT party translated a popular mandate into a massive get rich quick scheme. They tore apart the judiciary and executive, and through nepotism and cronyism undermined both police and military.
Thaksin was personally at the reigns of the so called “war on drugs”, issuing the orders that resulted in thousands of extra judicial murders and disappearances. He escalated the southern conflict through poor policies and worse implementation.
His party was eventually proven to be behind massive electoral fraud and corruption, buying votes in the rural communities, stuffing ballot boxes, etc.
Thaksin also attacked media freedoms, arrested journalists and dissenters, and then victimsed more through direct partisan application of lesse majeste and libel laws.
Then came the coup that got rid of him….to popular support may I add. I was there…I saw it first hand. Parties in the sois in Bangkok…happy people.
Then came the next polluted round of so called democratic elections. Subsequent investigations again linked the new “Thakisn” party – the PPP – with electoral fraud and corruption, vote buying, ballot rigging etc. 76 MPs initially linked with direct corruption. 76!!!!
During its time in power the PPP staggered from one crisis to another, passing little or no legislation, getting no actual work done. Instead the PPP chose to focus on its usual round of getting rich as quick as possible, mudslinging, and disseminating rumor and gossip.
Then came the October riots and deaths of innocent protestors at the hamfisted hands of the police. Police acting under direct orders of the governement at the time – the PPP. Blood on the streets in Bangkok brought back the fears of previosu protestor massacres…..hardly surprising given key PPP members were also linked to previous massacres.
Finally, the courts ruled that the PPP were inextricably linked with corrupt electoral practices and they were disbanded.
Their coalition partners, seeing that the PPP were fatally tainted, and sick of the real boss (Thaksin) pulling their strings to his own gain, jumped ship.
A new coalition was formed. The Democrats came to power.
We have seen the same thing happen in the UK. Here we have had minority and narrow majority coalition governments….as many countries have had. Nothing improper there.
Unelected leader? Step forward Mr Brown, Presidents Ford and Johnson of the USA, and many many others by that rule. But hey, again thats just another false argument, another deliberate deception and distortion of what democracy means.
The Democrat coalition is, compared to previous TRT/PPP governments, much more inclusive, open and transparent. They are a long way from perfect, but at least they try to get work done, do their jobs, and run Thailand properly rather than as a get rich quick system for one family.
To the red shirted rent a crowd Id like to say this: Your boss, Mr Thaksin, is a liar, a cheat, a coward and a traitor. He is a criminal. His family are criminals. His friends are criminals…..and if you support his thieving, lying and cheating then so are you. The fact you used your own children as unwitting innocent political photo op shills is appalling. Nearly as bad as the spelling on the placards you printed using computers….it is spelt PRIME MINISTER ….and you attend Oxford? Wow! Academic standards really are slipping at the old alma mater.
To Prof Giles Id say 10 out of 10 for standing up for free speech, but 1 out of 10 for application. You and I both know that the charges against you were laid by a previous administration. You are being deliberately deceptive, and your wearing of red and using a foot clapper is below you. I used to respect you highly….now I see you as another red shirted shill of Thaksin. How much is he paying you for your public appearances? When you sided with Thaksin and his red shirt thugs you lost all moral majority.
And to the rest of you academic numpties who sit behind desks and discuss democracy as an abstract concept, Id suggest you apply the academic training I had at University, and get off your backsides and investigate matters before commentating on them.
I doubt many of you have been here in the last 12 months and witnessed democracy being forged in the political dung fuelled furnace that is Thailand.
I suggest you go pay a visit to my (Thai) family in Issan, and ask them why they accepted 200bht bribes and cases of whisky to go place crosses against the PPP box on the ballot paper. Try explaining democracy or popular mandate to people who left school at 12 to 14 and have slaved in a rice field ever since, earning less in a month than you do in one day.
No, its easier to sit safely in a country that has been developing its democratic system for about 800 years or so and lob stones, based on the claptrap, gossip and rumor that the Thai press produce daily, or the mistruths propagated by Thaksin and his red shirted cronies like Prof Giles.
Thai politics and democracy are about 75 years young, and it shows. But comparing it to the UK or USA, or expecting western style “democracy in a box” to flourish in those 75 years is a prime example of academic stupidity at its best.
Abhisit, unlike his predecessors, and particularly that foul mouthed idiotic bigot Samak, is at least presentable on the public stage, and is willing to discuss issues openly.
Please, stick to your dreaming spires and ivory towers, and leave running the real world to pragmatic cynics like myself.
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Debate on lese majeste
This is certainly a positive local development – the only way LM reform must be worked out, transparently and participatively from within Thai society. At the very least, this abuse of LM by Thai elites in their Red-Yellow civil war must end. On the other hand, this effort must not be prioritized over the more critical reforms needed for the practical working of Thai democracy.
The fact that the event is being organized and will occur this weekend already says a lot about freedom of speech and critical discourse, at least in Thai academia on the matter, contrary to the many harsh, extreme and unfair commentaries (“no democracy”, “banning of opposing viewpoints”). Ofcourse if the meeting suddenly gets raid by policemen or participants gets slapped with LM that would be unfortunate (but, on the other hand, catalyst for real change from within – not the flee and attack from abroad tactics of PMThaksin/AjarnGiles, the boss of the Reds and its self-proclaimed intellectual mouthpiece).
My previous fear was that AjarnGile’s action has derailed the process as his extreme republican sentiments has clearly provided the more conservative elements in Thai society (often working in security agencies it seems) with ample ammunition to shoot down any progressive move. A fear also expressed in the comment section in Prachatai:
http://www.prachatai.com/05web/th/home/comment.php?mod=mod_ptcms&ContentID=15924&SystemModuleKey=HilightNews&System_Session_Language=Thai
#8
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The Ivory Tower, democracy and all that jazz
From my perspective teaching in a Thai university, I grew to loath and despise the Farang contingent of so-called experts flying in for the five day advisory junket as part of so-called “foreign aid” to tell all the locals what do.
What actually happens is that the locals (and us locally based and compensated Farang) sit around and listen to the Farang experts who are really clueless and not helpful at all because they don’t have enough on the ground knowledge to know what they are talking about (exemplified perfectly by the so-called realm of images hill tribe displacement article by these blog authors based on media reports). [One particular meeting stands out, when we were supposed to present our plan to educate hundreds of second year university students, meeting ended up consumed in the personal argument between s female PhD Farang expert from Univ Oregon dueling with a much less paid lower status female PhD Thai educated at University of Wisconsin, by the end of their duel everyone had forgot what the meeting was about]
The reality is that foreign institutions will be at the top of the heap in Thailand prestige-wise, for sure, but until they become more engaged at the ground level and less ivory-tower-esque faux-Marxist-drivellists, forget it, they are just not worth listening to.
The Ivory Tower, democracy and all that jazz
Here is the New York Times article when the esteemed professor pleaded guilty to the two felony counts for funneling $690,000 in illegal donations to the (U.S.) Democratic party:
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/06/22/us/thai-donor-to-democrats-pleads-guilty.html?scp=7&sq=Kanchanalak&st=cse
The Ivory Tower, democracy and all that jazz
It occurs to me that jonfernquest should write the Thai version of “I Know What You Did Last Summer,” with the dangerous, horrible secret held by the teens in this one being that they attended a prestigious Western university.
It would be very pleasant filming in the summer at Oxford, Cornell, Madison or Berkeley. I’d go see it, I promise!
Abhisit’s talk in Oxford: From the inside
Well put Hua Hin Dave! Thank you for a very good attempt at capturing the complexity of Thai politics as ‘played out’ through the years rather than as ‘imagined’ by many in NM…
As for PMAbhisit, at the end of day, he is a politician – and I argue, more in the mould of an opportunistic Western politician with a complexly negotiated power base than the typical Thai ‘ThaoKae’, Capitalist-Mafia politician model where the main investor ‘owns’ the party and makes the key decisions. If I am not wrong, the Democrats invented the ‘Mr.Clean’ party leader paired with a ‘Mr.Dirty’ (but powerful) secretary-general with the PMChuan-Sanan partnership and now PMAbhisit-Suthep (if you look at the recent donations to the Democrat party, Suthep actually donated almost half of the total if I am not wrong). PMAbhisit may or may not be sincere about what he says or political reform, but even if he is serious he will have to convince the ‘kingmaker’ first who will also have to convince the ‘kingmaker’ of the ‘kingmaker’ Newin, who is the founder of the Reds, PMThaksin’s street supporters that AjarnGiles supports(!!!) and who probably have aspirations for the top post himself etc…etc…
Ah, the intrigues and complexities of Thai politics. Does AjarnGiles address these issues seriously enough? Does the foriegn academics invest enough time on this? Sadly, no on both counts. But this is one of the main mode in which the decisions that directly affect Thai politics/democracy and its future evolution are made. AjarnGiles and the foriegn academics have simplistically reduce Thai Democracy to Les Majeste law – a law that is the least of most Thai’s worries anyway… If you ask Thais to list the top 10 things they want their leaders to address – where would Les Majeste law reform come in? Interestingly, from their words and actions, it seem to top AjarnGiles and the the respectable foriegn academics’ list. If you ask democracy advocates, activists and fighters in Myanmar, Cambodia, Zimbabwe etc. – what will they say?
Abhisit’s talk in Oxford: From the inside
“Unlike most commentators here I actually have the luck to live in Thailand, and have done since 2001. I feel, therefore, a little more qualified to comment on democracy or its lack in Thailand.”
Yawn.
Let’s see, Paul Handley, author of The King Never Smiles was in Thailand for 13 years, making him 1.625 times more qualified than you to comment, and my humble self has been here for about 24 years, making me 3 times more qualified than you, right?. And I don’t live in a “dreaming spire” or “ivory tower” — not even a high-rise condo.
So, perhaps NM should have a ratings system, in which commentators include a index based on number of years in Thailand minus time spent at a university. Should Thai nationality be factored in, and how do we treat Thais who have been “tainted” by their time at a university abroad — double points off?
The silly claim for expertise aside, Hua Hin Dave’s comments lay out a reasonable case – though one I disagree with. Most of his various points have already been addressed at length on this blog, so I won’t bother.
One minor point I think should be addressed for the record. When you say “The fact you used your own children as unwitting innocent political photo op shills is appalling,” you might note that this follows the model set by the PAD since 2006.
PAD parents of course also brought their small children to situations where they admitted they expected violence in the form of police attacks (most notably, the airport occupation).
But of course as someone who has lived here since 2001, you already knew that, right?
The Ivory Tower, democracy and all that jazz
And to be the devil’s advocate how about:
15. Wise Meddling Westerners in Western “Ivory Towers” with Specific Agenda Pretending to be Ignorant (WMWW”IT”wSAPtbI)
The Ivory Tower, democracy and all that jazz
It seems KhunPornpimol must have an interesting past – which work both to her advantage (‘in the thick of things’ – or to use academic fieldwork language ‘participant observant’) and disadvantage (‘skeletons in the closet’) in this context.
Observer, lets not try to reduce the complex phenomenon that is Thai society/politics (or any society for that matter) as it can be quite misleading. I propose (at least):
1. Wise Elite = W E
2. Corrupt Elite = C E
3. Wise and Corrupt Elite = W C E
4. Ignorant and Corrupt Elite = I C E
5. Ignorant populace (urban) = I P (u)
6. Wise populace (urban) = W P (u)
7. Ignorant populace (rural) = I P (r)
8. Wise populace (rural) = W P (r)
9. Wise Meddling Westerners = W M W
10. Ignorant Meddling Westerners = I M W
11. Wise Meddling Westerners (living in Thailand)= W M W (liT)
12. Ignorant Meddling Westerners (in Western “Ivory Towers”)= I M W (W”IT”)
13. Tourists = T
14. …etc…etc…
The permutations are endless, really (e.g. the elites in 1 to 4 may or may not have social, financial, weaponry capital – and the same people may even fall into more than one conflicting categories!)…
Yes, in reduction, you get quick interesting synthesis which may not necessarily be correct and /or accurate…
Abhisit’s talk in Oxford: From the inside
To Hua Hin Dave
You know, living in Thailand for 8 years or 20 years or whatever does give you more legitimacy than other people here.
If you talk about “Majority rule = abuse of power” then what about “Minority rule =??? ) in term of vote buying Abhisit is as guilty here, how do you think he lure Newin camp to his side?? yeah …..
And you talk about transparent in Abhisit government??? WHAT ARE YOU JOKING ABOUT???
A PAD leader is serving as a minister
rotten fish
rotten milk
immigrat abuse
money that appear from no where and dissapear somewhere
yeah, that’s really convincing….
And you said Abhisit is more open to discuss? I think that will be really hard to accomplish because many of his opposition is being charge for lese majeste and many had run away from Thailand, now who will dare to go against him??
Lese majeste-related web pages blocked in Thailand?
Thanks for all of these really helpful comments!
I am concerned about the apparently haphazard nature of these problems. If anyone out there has suggestions on why, say, Alec gets fake 404 errors and Yeti doesn’t then I am all ears.
We will probably continue to use the phrase “lese majeste” in some of our post titles.
And if there are ever any dramatic changes to your ability to access NM please let us know.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
The Ivory Tower, democracy and all that jazz
If you adjust the terms of the acronym to Wise Intellectuals, Peasant Elements and Meddlesome Europeans, it becomes “Wipe Me!” which is even more memorable.
Lese majeste-related web pages blocked in Thailand?
My True ADSL connection regularly gives a false 404 Error message for any page that contains ‘lese majeste’ (with or without accents). This is true of Google and Wikipedia as well as NM and the other regular suspects. (I am therefore only able to access this page through a proxy server.)
Since other True users report no problems, I am beginning to suspect that the ‘lese majeste’ trigger works when certain blacklisted IP addresses attempt access. (Such paranoid times.)
These false messages seem to be triggered simply by the string ‘lese majeste’ (so it also blocks my access to pro-lm sites). ‘LM’ as a string does not trigger the blocking. Since all NM readers are in the know, could I suggest that page titles use ‘LM’ rather than ‘lese majeste’?
Or would such an abrreviation itself constitute LM?
I mean, lese majeste.
On lèse majesté
@14 nganadeeleg
it’s all about believes, if you share them or not.
this ‘guy’ is king, semi-devine, head of the buddhists in thailand.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhumibol_Adulyadej
one can compare him with nobody else,
coz nobody else is so much respected and loved by his people,
even not the pope.
@13 Ralph Kramden
you are not fair. it’s a fact, that most people have some kind of ‘majesty’
(greatness = to be respected above everyhing else).
few examples were used:
christians have jesus,
muslims have mohammad,
some have nothing,
some have their children
and thais have their believes, including the king.
none of them likes it,
when others insult them by pretending that their believes are worthless.
the worst offenders are the u.s.a.:
there a doctor was convicted to 25 years in prison for nothing else
but for agreeing to provide medical treatment to wounded!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafiq_Abdus_Sabir
john lennon was shot dead in new york
and your list from guantanamo does not contain any reasons,
why these people were detained (a major reason for critics)
although many agree with you, that holocaust-denial should not be a crime,
it’s a german ‘lese majesty law’, protecting the ‘majesty of german teachings’.
@12 Jason Geddes
you say you are non believer, we tolerate this
you say the holocaust doesn’t faze you after 60 years, your right!
but why don’t you tolerate and respect the believes of thai people?
if i would call your laws ‘repugnant’,
used to intimidate and repress me, would you be happy?
most likely you would say:
if you don’t like my laws, stay out of my home.
i even share your personal believes about religion,
but that does not allow me to go into a church & insult the worshippers.
to all of you: freedom is first the freedom of others.
tolerance is not an emotion, it’s a behaviour……
Rambo and the real war in Burma
Jack, you should let everyone know about your You-Tube video postings, where people can see you and hear about the humanitarian projects which you and that lady from Quebec, Canada got underway and what those bastards (SPDC/DKBA) did to destroy what you both worked on in the Karen State.
I don’t know nothing about the war being “over” with as the enemy is now trying to sell to the world. It’s just getting started.
I continue to receive e-mails and phone calls from people all over the globe, who want to help the Karen National Liberation Army.
The Ivory Tower, democracy and all that jazz
If we change “Meddling Westerners” to “Meddling Outsiders”, the acronym for this discourse would be “WE-IP-MO” — easier to pronounce.
The Ivory Tower, democracy and all that jazz
I find it humorous that someone indicted for political graft would lecture us on “democracy”.
The Ivory Tower, democracy and all that jazz
This is another “classic” argument from an elitist Thai perspective.
In summary:
“Our country is not as advanced as yours (farang’s) because our people, excluding the elitist intellectuals, are too ignorant. Only the elite (and intellecuals like me) know what democracy is. Therefore let us educate our ignorant populace and guide them to maturity first. Meanwhile, you, the outsiders, don’t understand our situation and often impose your own standard to judge others. You should stop meddling with us.”
The three main components of this discourse are:
1. Wise Elite = W E
2. Ignorant populace = I P
3. Meddling Westerners = M W
The whole article could have been shortened by saying “WEIPMW “, signed the author.
The Ivory Tower, democracy and all that jazz
1: This is the view from the palace, that politicians are necessarily corrupt: “We the people never have a real chance at democracy because all politicians do not care for it. They use it as lip service, as a means to legitimise their agendas and their looting. If they believed in it, we would not be where we are today.”
2. “Polly” Pornpimol of course embraced this view well during her period as a “journalist” — make that “powerbroker/lobbyist” — in Washington —
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1997_Special_Investigation_in_Connection_with_1996_Federal_Election_Campaigns/Section_7
http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/192/1037/594125/
Note she was an agent of Ban Chang, a company with a great history of connections (the Chatichai buffet cabinet)-real estate hype-bad debts.
But she can call herself a journalist now. That’s ok.
Abhisit’s talk in Oxford: From the inside
Incidentally, whereas Abhisit answered Prof Giles in a civilised and somewhat humorous manner, here is what the answers would have probably sounded like had they come care of our two previous Prime Ministers, based on 10 moths of observing them in action when faced with the media:
SAMAK:
“What You Say? I no hear you….your mouth full of (insert expletive). What are you? Gay man? You wear lipstick gay boy? You not even Thai…you British!”
(Note: Samaks usual approach when faced with stiff questions was to directly assault the journalists sexuality, race or nationality.)
SOMCHAI:
“ermmmm……its the fault of the PAD terrorists…..eeeerrrmmmm…..scuse me, I just have to call my boss and see what he thinks…..”
(runs and hides in public toilet whilst calling Thaksin).
Abhisit’s talk in Oxford: From the inside
Unlike most commentators here I actually have the luck to live in Thailand, and have done since 2001. I feel, therefore, a little more qualified to comment on democracy or its lack in Thailand.
Under the “majority vote = abuse of power” regime headed by Thaksin democracy took a massive step back. Thaksin and his TRT party translated a popular mandate into a massive get rich quick scheme. They tore apart the judiciary and executive, and through nepotism and cronyism undermined both police and military.
Thaksin was personally at the reigns of the so called “war on drugs”, issuing the orders that resulted in thousands of extra judicial murders and disappearances. He escalated the southern conflict through poor policies and worse implementation.
His party was eventually proven to be behind massive electoral fraud and corruption, buying votes in the rural communities, stuffing ballot boxes, etc.
Thaksin also attacked media freedoms, arrested journalists and dissenters, and then victimsed more through direct partisan application of lesse majeste and libel laws.
Then came the coup that got rid of him….to popular support may I add. I was there…I saw it first hand. Parties in the sois in Bangkok…happy people.
Then came the next polluted round of so called democratic elections. Subsequent investigations again linked the new “Thakisn” party – the PPP – with electoral fraud and corruption, vote buying, ballot rigging etc. 76 MPs initially linked with direct corruption. 76!!!!
During its time in power the PPP staggered from one crisis to another, passing little or no legislation, getting no actual work done. Instead the PPP chose to focus on its usual round of getting rich as quick as possible, mudslinging, and disseminating rumor and gossip.
Then came the October riots and deaths of innocent protestors at the hamfisted hands of the police. Police acting under direct orders of the governement at the time – the PPP. Blood on the streets in Bangkok brought back the fears of previosu protestor massacres…..hardly surprising given key PPP members were also linked to previous massacres.
Finally, the courts ruled that the PPP were inextricably linked with corrupt electoral practices and they were disbanded.
Their coalition partners, seeing that the PPP were fatally tainted, and sick of the real boss (Thaksin) pulling their strings to his own gain, jumped ship.
A new coalition was formed. The Democrats came to power.
We have seen the same thing happen in the UK. Here we have had minority and narrow majority coalition governments….as many countries have had. Nothing improper there.
Unelected leader? Step forward Mr Brown, Presidents Ford and Johnson of the USA, and many many others by that rule. But hey, again thats just another false argument, another deliberate deception and distortion of what democracy means.
The Democrat coalition is, compared to previous TRT/PPP governments, much more inclusive, open and transparent. They are a long way from perfect, but at least they try to get work done, do their jobs, and run Thailand properly rather than as a get rich quick system for one family.
To the red shirted rent a crowd Id like to say this: Your boss, Mr Thaksin, is a liar, a cheat, a coward and a traitor. He is a criminal. His family are criminals. His friends are criminals…..and if you support his thieving, lying and cheating then so are you. The fact you used your own children as unwitting innocent political photo op shills is appalling. Nearly as bad as the spelling on the placards you printed using computers….it is spelt PRIME MINISTER ….and you attend Oxford? Wow! Academic standards really are slipping at the old alma mater.
To Prof Giles Id say 10 out of 10 for standing up for free speech, but 1 out of 10 for application. You and I both know that the charges against you were laid by a previous administration. You are being deliberately deceptive, and your wearing of red and using a foot clapper is below you. I used to respect you highly….now I see you as another red shirted shill of Thaksin. How much is he paying you for your public appearances? When you sided with Thaksin and his red shirt thugs you lost all moral majority.
And to the rest of you academic numpties who sit behind desks and discuss democracy as an abstract concept, Id suggest you apply the academic training I had at University, and get off your backsides and investigate matters before commentating on them.
I doubt many of you have been here in the last 12 months and witnessed democracy being forged in the political dung fuelled furnace that is Thailand.
I suggest you go pay a visit to my (Thai) family in Issan, and ask them why they accepted 200bht bribes and cases of whisky to go place crosses against the PPP box on the ballot paper. Try explaining democracy or popular mandate to people who left school at 12 to 14 and have slaved in a rice field ever since, earning less in a month than you do in one day.
No, its easier to sit safely in a country that has been developing its democratic system for about 800 years or so and lob stones, based on the claptrap, gossip and rumor that the Thai press produce daily, or the mistruths propagated by Thaksin and his red shirted cronies like Prof Giles.
Thai politics and democracy are about 75 years young, and it shows. But comparing it to the UK or USA, or expecting western style “democracy in a box” to flourish in those 75 years is a prime example of academic stupidity at its best.
Abhisit, unlike his predecessors, and particularly that foul mouthed idiotic bigot Samak, is at least presentable on the public stage, and is willing to discuss issues openly.
Please, stick to your dreaming spires and ivory towers, and leave running the real world to pragmatic cynics like myself.