My point is that there is something else besides the coercion, smoke and mirrors, and what-have-you that goes into making the monarchy the manifestation of a whole set of Thai sociocultural ideals – the consent side of this equation – and that this banner can be subverted/coopted by those in positions of less power to gain position.
All I’m saying is that Giles needs to get his Gramsci on – the culture side of the war here is long-term, and political revolution itself ain’t gonna cut it.
jonfernquest: “Teaching in most universities in this country is about giving kids skill sets they can use in the job market. ”
Extraordinary reply. I don’t see any evidence for vocational skills training in Thai schools today. In fact, over the past few years Thai schools (including international schools) and Universities have been told to increase the number of hours allocated to traditional Thai culture and language.
A recent study by Gartner (published by The Bangkok Post 7th January) noted that although Thailand entered the top 30 list of offshore-service providers (outsourcing) the major shortfalls were in English and IT skills.
Even at Chulalongkorn, currently ranked 116th in the World, you wouldn’t exactly class students as capable of free-thinking, critical enquiry or intellectual expression. It is very common practice for students to pay someone between 200 and 500 baht to complete essay assignments on their behalf. As for work experience they often take short three-month placements in companies related to their degree studies, but they are rarely given any work to do.
“”Even more important, I think that the military and those that have in the past enjoyed undemocratic power but claimed legitimacy from the monarchy are really very, very scared that when this King dies, their legitimacy will evaporate because they are not going to be able to claim the same legitimacy from the Crown Prince.”
I think this statement gets to the primary motivation for the coup; no way were the anti-Thakin elites going to take the chance that Thaksin might still be in power when the King dies. At the time I thought that might be sensible, because it would have put Thaksin on course for his goal of unopposed power and a single-party state. Having seen how things have gone since I have changed my mind, about the coup at any rate, and I think that Yellow Shirt attempts to portray the Reds as all about returning Thaksin to power have become less and less convincing, with Professor Ungpakorn’s efforts being helpful in that regard.
“It retains this role BECAUSE it still best represents in a manifest and tangible form, the proclaimed ideals of Thai society, far more powerful still than Thaksinomics or the ideals of “democracy and human dignity” (Giles’s words).”
It seemed to me that you had not yet recognized what indeed is “old news” on this web site. So, I just wanted to let you know…
Does “free inquiry” include reading English-language literature? After many years of having been connected directly and indirectly to the Thai university system, my impressions are not encouraging.
“Anyone who has done even a bit of University teaching will know that, at the end of the day, free enquiry is what gets students excited about intellectual work. Without that freedom to debate and disagree Universities become mere factories for propaganda and for producing graduates who know only how to toe the line….”
Get your little Oxford bum down to Thailand pronto and actually teach some of the poor rural folk you are always pontificating about.
Teaching in most universities in this country is about giving kids skill sets they can use in the job market.
If you do as I suggest, you will have the opportunity to listen to potentially hundreds of student presentations on their senior year internship where they will relate to you and their other teachers what they learned about the real work that they will soon inhabit, not the Oxford financed by my rich daddy pseudo-intellectual world.
this inner line pass for mainland indians and permit for foreigners is very good system, otherwise mainlanders will not only hinder natural growth of tribals over there but also spoil the ecosystem of beautiful land of arunachal pradesh as
happened in mumbai, goa and delhi
Anyone have updates on what the brave Australian government has been doing on the Nicolaides case? I thought Rudd was interested in human rights? Okay, they have been busy with bushfire tragedies, but Stephen Smith is speaking publicly on the Rohinga issue. I googled his name and Thailand and there is nothing about Nicolaides since January from the Australian foreign minister. Maybe they have the Amnesty International response: working behind closed doors at the highest levels?
I was not kind a couple of days ago in a letter I wrote to that faculty in Chiangmai. The fax went through, apparently, but I expect no answer.
That academic freedom should be undermined by the academics themselves is a shock. Same as Jai said about his own experience at Chula – turned in by one of his won…
Interesting development among the Karen indicating that the other splinter group, the KNU/KNLA Peace Council led by Brig-Gen Htain Maung, and not the DKBA, might turn out to be the SPDC’s border force at Three Pagodas Pass:
FYI………..the “Charter” for the Asia Media Conclave to be held in Bangkok March 25 thru 27th (of which Kavi Chongkittavorn of The Nation and apparently a PAD supporter is the Thai Representative/Coordinator):
———————————————————————
Asia Media Forum Charter
We, the participants of Asia Media Forum in Bangkok, Thailand,
17-19 December 2006:
1) Recall Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that states: “Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media, and regardless of frontiers”,
2) Stand for human dignity, human rights, gender equity, social justice, equitable economic progress and a participatory and democratic polity,
3) Recall the United Nations Millennium Declaration that sets out a human rights-based approach to development, in which participation and transparency in decision-making, empowerment and accountability play a key role,
4) Stress that Asian media has a crucial role to play in promoting key elements of just, democratic and accountable governance, including the rule of law, independent and pluralistic media is important to ensure transparency and civic participation as fundamental elements of human rights-based development and poverty reduction,
5) Emphasise that solidarity and co-operation among Asian media and journalists would promote better understanding and closer cooperation among Asian countries and their peoples as well as articulate shared visions and raise professional standards,
6) Empower journalists to resist censorship in all forms,
7) Support the greater participation and empowerment of women and diverse voices in media ;
We unanimously call upon Asian journalists, media practitioners, outlets and associations:
a) To commit ourselves to the highest standards of professional ethics, media freedom and media education,
b) To put in place mechanisms, sufficient resources and personnel to promote professional journalism, first-hand news gathering and to investigate stories,
c) To commit ourselves to raise public awareness and understanding about corruption, human rights violations, other abuse of power and increasing the space in the media to highlight democratic deficits and issues affecting the large sections of excluded and marginalised people,
d) To report fairly and professionally on conflict situations within the region,
e) To build a platform for interaction, shared learning and interregional co-operation to promote ethical, substantive, inclusive and non-discriminatory media in the region
f) To create a space for exchanging ideas, news, information and views on democracy, development and human rights,
g) To strive for providing safety for journalists and to hold respective governments and media organisations responsible for the safety of journalists and to end the culture of impunity which encourages murder, intimidation, harassment and other attacks on journalists,
j) To strive to create an environment where media messages are shaped by the needs of the people rather than commercialism,
k) To strive for greater freedom of movement for journalists across Asia
Thailand is a deeply monarchist culture. What this means is that instead of seeking the protection of the law, and acknowledging the protection that the law gives to others, most Thais seek protection in patronage, with the monarch as their ├╝berpatron. The most dangerous aspect of the Thaksin phenomenon was that he was seen as an alternative ├╝berpatron rather than as merely the leading lawmaker. The dependents of the old, tired dynasty had begun to tear the country apart rather than submit to a change that would have robbed them of their power. Had circumstances been different, it could have been revolutionaries that were responsible for most of the damage. All monarchies are prone to such instability, and the accompanying spikes of repression. The most vulnerable are those where the rule of law is so weak that it cannot even determine the succession. Cultures that submit to the rule of men rather than the rule of law are doomed to periodic troubles.
You definitely hit the mark by turning my quote on its head, but as you neatly summarize in the preceding paragraph, how the monarchy has become and maintains its paragon status should be old news by now. (At least to anyone who follows this site!)
What I’m interested in is the strategy for that democratic activists and reformers should follow. In short, I think Giles’s very specific call is ultimately foolhardy; other than providing an initial shock to the system, would rather draw much negative attention to what should be a progressive force for Thai politics. Perhaps a strategy of co-optation and reclamation, as opposed to rejection, would be a less divisive way forward?
The DKBA has long done the bidding of the SPDC, at least since 1995.
They smuggle drugs, guard drug shipments and labs, battle the KNLA, and engage in the sex slavery market.
The SPDC wants the UWSA and the SSA to buckle under, turn over their weaponry, then submit to SPDC authority.
The Wa and Shan are resisting, but for how long they can do so remains to be seen.
“Five years ago, Thailand had a thriving and developing democracy.” Well, well, Giles…
“far more powerful still than Thaksinomics” ” Well, Thaksin had come too close, which is an important reason why he had to go. “precisely because nothing else has come close to challenging it as the sociocultural paragon.” Look at the past three years, and you will know how that paragon has beaten back the Thaksin challenge.
“What I find lost in many [apologies] of the monarchy in the contemporary Thai sociopolitical context” is analysis of the actual structures and process, as distinct from merely repeating pieces of the official discourse.
What I find lost in many criticisms of the monarchy in the contemporary Thai sociopolitical context is that many do not touch on the fact that the monarchy is still the strongest vehicle through which to align interests and mobilize divergent groups in Thai society. It retains this role because it still best represents, in a manifest and tangible form, the proclaimed ideals of Thai society, far more powerful still than Thaksinomics or the ideals of “democracy and human dignity” (Giles’s words). Yes its potency may not be at its peak and it has not always been an equal-access resource, but I would argue that it retains its relevance and its desirability, precisely because nothing else has come come close to challenging it as the sociocultural paragon.
Giles may sincerely speak his heart and mind, but I think he and the pro-democracy movement in Thailand would be digging themselves into a hole if, at this juncture in time, they do not account for the monarchy’s star in the Thai imagination and its potency for their cause.
“Five years ago, Thailand had a thriving and developing democracy with freedom of expression, a relatively free press and an active civil society, where social movements campaigned to protect the interests of the poor. Today, the country is creeping towards totalitarianism.”
What utter BS, and many foreign readers no doubt believe this. How did someone like this end up being taken seriously? Like the Chalerm case, was it he fame of his daddy? We all no know the formula for insta-celebrity.
The comments after the article are, for me, the most interesting part. It seems that perceptions of Thailand are shifting; not entirely surprising, given the airport blockade, but still rather ominous for the tourism industry.
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Giles in The Guardian
Sri,
My point is that there is something else besides the coercion, smoke and mirrors, and what-have-you that goes into making the monarchy the manifestation of a whole set of Thai sociocultural ideals – the consent side of this equation – and that this banner can be subverted/coopted by those in positions of less power to gain position.
All I’m saying is that Giles needs to get his Gramsci on – the culture side of the war here is long-term, and political revolution itself ain’t gonna cut it.
More repressive efforts in Thailand
jonfernquest: “Teaching in most universities in this country is about giving kids skill sets they can use in the job market. ”
Extraordinary reply. I don’t see any evidence for vocational skills training in Thai schools today. In fact, over the past few years Thai schools (including international schools) and Universities have been told to increase the number of hours allocated to traditional Thai culture and language.
A recent study by Gartner (published by The Bangkok Post 7th January) noted that although Thailand entered the top 30 list of offshore-service providers (outsourcing) the major shortfalls were in English and IT skills.
Even at Chulalongkorn, currently ranked 116th in the World, you wouldn’t exactly class students as capable of free-thinking, critical enquiry or intellectual expression. It is very common practice for students to pay someone between 200 and 500 baht to complete essay assignments on their behalf. As for work experience they often take short three-month placements in companies related to their degree studies, but they are rarely given any work to do.
Special interview: Giles Ungpakorn, part 1
“”Even more important, I think that the military and those that have in the past enjoyed undemocratic power but claimed legitimacy from the monarchy are really very, very scared that when this King dies, their legitimacy will evaporate because they are not going to be able to claim the same legitimacy from the Crown Prince.”
I think this statement gets to the primary motivation for the coup; no way were the anti-Thakin elites going to take the chance that Thaksin might still be in power when the King dies. At the time I thought that might be sensible, because it would have put Thaksin on course for his goal of unopposed power and a single-party state. Having seen how things have gone since I have changed my mind, about the coup at any rate, and I think that Yellow Shirt attempts to portray the Reds as all about returning Thaksin to power have become less and less convincing, with Professor Ungpakorn’s efforts being helpful in that regard.
Giles in The Guardian
Nong Juu:
Please, re-read your own statement:
“It retains this role BECAUSE it still best represents in a manifest and tangible form, the proclaimed ideals of Thai society, far more powerful still than Thaksinomics or the ideals of “democracy and human dignity” (Giles’s words).”
It seemed to me that you had not yet recognized what indeed is “old news” on this web site. So, I just wanted to let you know…
More repressive efforts in Thailand
Does “free inquiry” include reading English-language literature? After many years of having been connected directly and indirectly to the Thai university system, my impressions are not encouraging.
More repressive efforts in Thailand
“Anyone who has done even a bit of University teaching will know that, at the end of the day, free enquiry is what gets students excited about intellectual work. Without that freedom to debate and disagree Universities become mere factories for propaganda and for producing graduates who know only how to toe the line….”
Get your little Oxford bum down to Thailand pronto and actually teach some of the poor rural folk you are always pontificating about.
Teaching in most universities in this country is about giving kids skill sets they can use in the job market.
If you do as I suggest, you will have the opportunity to listen to potentially hundreds of student presentations on their senior year internship where they will relate to you and their other teachers what they learned about the real work that they will soon inhabit, not the Oxford financed by my rich daddy pseudo-intellectual world.
War and the Wa
The KNLA has already tried at least once to kill Htain Maung. I’m sure that this development will give them even more incentive to assassinate him.
“Arunachal Pradesh…exotically yours”
this inner line pass for mainland indians and permit for foreigners is very good system, otherwise mainlanders will not only hinder natural growth of tribals over there but also spoil the ecosystem of beautiful land of arunachal pradesh as
happened in mumbai, goa and delhi
Giles in The Guardian
Thailand is a deeply monarchist culture.
Is it deep enough to survive succession to the prince?
Seems to me this is all a matter of strategic timing, with each side betting on the life and death of one person
Will the princess and democracy survive them all?
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
Anyone have updates on what the brave Australian government has been doing on the Nicolaides case? I thought Rudd was interested in human rights? Okay, they have been busy with bushfire tragedies, but Stephen Smith is speaking publicly on the Rohinga issue. I googled his name and Thailand and there is nothing about Nicolaides since January from the Australian foreign minister. Maybe they have the Amnesty International response: working behind closed doors at the highest levels?
More repressive efforts in Thailand
I was not kind a couple of days ago in a letter I wrote to that faculty in Chiangmai. The fax went through, apparently, but I expect no answer.
That academic freedom should be undermined by the academics themselves is a shock. Same as Jai said about his own experience at Chula – turned in by one of his won…
War and the Wa
Interesting development among the Karen indicating that the other splinter group, the KNU/KNLA Peace Council led by Brig-Gen Htain Maung, and not the DKBA, might turn out to be the SPDC’s border force at Three Pagodas Pass:
http://www.irrawaddy.org/article.php?art_id=15094
A chance to discuss media freedom
FYI………..the “Charter” for the Asia Media Conclave to be held in Bangkok March 25 thru 27th (of which Kavi Chongkittavorn of The Nation and apparently a PAD supporter is the Thai Representative/Coordinator):
———————————————————————
Asia Media Forum Charter
We, the participants of Asia Media Forum in Bangkok, Thailand,
17-19 December 2006:
1) Recall Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that states: “Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media, and regardless of frontiers”,
2) Stand for human dignity, human rights, gender equity, social justice, equitable economic progress and a participatory and democratic polity,
3) Recall the United Nations Millennium Declaration that sets out a human rights-based approach to development, in which participation and transparency in decision-making, empowerment and accountability play a key role,
4) Stress that Asian media has a crucial role to play in promoting key elements of just, democratic and accountable governance, including the rule of law, independent and pluralistic media is important to ensure transparency and civic participation as fundamental elements of human rights-based development and poverty reduction,
5) Emphasise that solidarity and co-operation among Asian media and journalists would promote better understanding and closer cooperation among Asian countries and their peoples as well as articulate shared visions and raise professional standards,
6) Empower journalists to resist censorship in all forms,
7) Support the greater participation and empowerment of women and diverse voices in media ;
We unanimously call upon Asian journalists, media practitioners, outlets and associations:
a) To commit ourselves to the highest standards of professional ethics, media freedom and media education,
b) To put in place mechanisms, sufficient resources and personnel to promote professional journalism, first-hand news gathering and to investigate stories,
c) To commit ourselves to raise public awareness and understanding about corruption, human rights violations, other abuse of power and increasing the space in the media to highlight democratic deficits and issues affecting the large sections of excluded and marginalised people,
d) To report fairly and professionally on conflict situations within the region,
e) To build a platform for interaction, shared learning and interregional co-operation to promote ethical, substantive, inclusive and non-discriminatory media in the region
f) To create a space for exchanging ideas, news, information and views on democracy, development and human rights,
g) To strive for providing safety for journalists and to hold respective governments and media organisations responsible for the safety of journalists and to end the culture of impunity which encourages murder, intimidation, harassment and other attacks on journalists,
j) To strive to create an environment where media messages are shaped by the needs of the people rather than commercialism,
k) To strive for greater freedom of movement for journalists across Asia
Giles in The Guardian
Thailand is a deeply monarchist culture. What this means is that instead of seeking the protection of the law, and acknowledging the protection that the law gives to others, most Thais seek protection in patronage, with the monarch as their ├╝berpatron. The most dangerous aspect of the Thaksin phenomenon was that he was seen as an alternative ├╝berpatron rather than as merely the leading lawmaker. The dependents of the old, tired dynasty had begun to tear the country apart rather than submit to a change that would have robbed them of their power. Had circumstances been different, it could have been revolutionaries that were responsible for most of the damage. All monarchies are prone to such instability, and the accompanying spikes of repression. The most vulnerable are those where the rule of law is so weak that it cannot even determine the succession. Cultures that submit to the rule of men rather than the rule of law are doomed to periodic troubles.
Giles in The Guardian
Sri,
You definitely hit the mark by turning my quote on its head, but as you neatly summarize in the preceding paragraph, how the monarchy has become and maintains its paragon status should be old news by now. (At least to anyone who follows this site!)
What I’m interested in is the strategy for that democratic activists and reformers should follow. In short, I think Giles’s very specific call is ultimately foolhardy; other than providing an initial shock to the system, would rather draw much negative attention to what should be a progressive force for Thai politics. Perhaps a strategy of co-optation and reclamation, as opposed to rejection, would be a less divisive way forward?
War and the Wa
The DKBA has long done the bidding of the SPDC, at least since 1995.
They smuggle drugs, guard drug shipments and labs, battle the KNLA, and engage in the sex slavery market.
The SPDC wants the UWSA and the SSA to buckle under, turn over their weaponry, then submit to SPDC authority.
The Wa and Shan are resisting, but for how long they can do so remains to be seen.
Giles in The Guardian
“Five years ago, Thailand had a thriving and developing democracy.” Well, well, Giles…
“far more powerful still than Thaksinomics” ” Well, Thaksin had come too close, which is an important reason why he had to go. “precisely because nothing else has come close to challenging it as the sociocultural paragon.” Look at the past three years, and you will know how that paragon has beaten back the Thaksin challenge.
“What I find lost in many [apologies] of the monarchy in the contemporary Thai sociopolitical context” is analysis of the actual structures and process, as distinct from merely repeating pieces of the official discourse.
Giles in The Guardian
What I find lost in many criticisms of the monarchy in the contemporary Thai sociopolitical context is that many do not touch on the fact that the monarchy is still the strongest vehicle through which to align interests and mobilize divergent groups in Thai society. It retains this role because it still best represents, in a manifest and tangible form, the proclaimed ideals of Thai society, far more powerful still than Thaksinomics or the ideals of “democracy and human dignity” (Giles’s words). Yes its potency may not be at its peak and it has not always been an equal-access resource, but I would argue that it retains its relevance and its desirability, precisely because nothing else has come come close to challenging it as the sociocultural paragon.
Giles may sincerely speak his heart and mind, but I think he and the pro-democracy movement in Thailand would be digging themselves into a hole if, at this juncture in time, they do not account for the monarchy’s star in the Thai imagination and its potency for their cause.
Giles in The Guardian
“Five years ago, Thailand had a thriving and developing democracy with freedom of expression, a relatively free press and an active civil society, where social movements campaigned to protect the interests of the poor. Today, the country is creeping towards totalitarianism.”
What utter BS, and many foreign readers no doubt believe this. How did someone like this end up being taken seriously? Like the Chalerm case, was it he fame of his daddy? We all no know the formula for insta-celebrity.
Giles in The Guardian
The comments after the article are, for me, the most interesting part. It seems that perceptions of Thailand are shifting; not entirely surprising, given the airport blockade, but still rather ominous for the tourism industry.