The only moves so far known to be being made are to make the law even stronger and more draconian. So what’s he on about? Notice that Dej says “amend” not abolish.
I wonder what is the level of income of Mr Somchit comparing to the average of folks he talks about ? 😉
also of all those who are leaders or officials there (government, army, police etc.)
do they also ahdere to “sufficiency” principle ?
does Mr Somchit grow his own vegetables ? 😀
Well, let’s see. The subsistence agricultural economy is better for the people because they aren’t affected by events in the rest of the world, so it’s a good thing the country isn’t developed, but the government thinks development would be good for the people and so wants to promote industrialization.
It would be interesting to know what part the Thai Military and Bureaucracy played in the enslavement and murder of tens of thousands of poor Thais by their allies, the Japanese, in 1941-45.
Frank: They seem to be sending this to multiple persons. Great strategy – talk to high level people in a government that has made LM their highest priority. Who gives them such strategic advice? Actually, this stand makes the point for the Thai govt – make people too scared to take on LM.
Here’s how AI replied to my telephone clal yesterday morning:
My concern was also expressed to AI HQ yesterday by phone. This is what they sent back to me.
“Dear Frank,
Thank you for your voicemail. Amnesty has decided to take up this matter privately with the Thai authorities at very high levels (rather than, at this point at least, to issue something publicly). We appreciate that lese majeste is a concern to many people both within and outside of Thailand—-and that Amnesty’s decision might also be disappointing—-but we reached this decision after considerable strategizing as to how we might most effectively influence the situation. Note that we will also be highlighting the issue in the 2009 Amnesty International Annual Report (due out in early May).”
Benjamin Zawacki
Researcher, Southeast Asia
Amnesty International, International Secretariat
1 Easton Street, London WC1X 0DW, UK
Mobile (Thai): +66 (0)81 138 1912
Mobile (UK): +44 (0)793098054
Tel: +44 (0)20 7413 5908
QUOTE OF THE DAY-We are the victims. Somehow we serve as a sponge to receive all these economic migrants – Tharit Charungvat, spokesman for Thailand’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs
A relevant point to raise here is the problematic classifications of people leaving Burma as either “refugees” or “economic migrants.” In this contribution, Paul Busbarat identifies the Rohingya as refugees. So does Andrew Walker in his opinion piece on “Abhisit’s human rights challenge.” However, Tharit Charungvat, speaking on behalf of Thailand’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs complained recently regarding the Rohingya that Thailand was “a sponge to receive all these economic migrants.”
The reason that “there are no permanent camps or NGO offices to help them [the Rohingya ‘boat people’] on a regular basis,” is not, as Busbarat suggests, because “these Rohingya migratory flows are seasonal.” Rather, it is because many INGOs, UN agencies, bilateral aid agencies and the Thai government consider them “economic migrants” not “refugees.”
The notion that “refugees” are only those fleeing conflict in eastern Burma and now residing within designated refugee camps and “economic migrants” are everyone else from Burma now in Thailand needs to be more aggressively challenged. Andrew Walker stated the Rohingya were refugees because they were “escaping from the Burmese regime’s persecution of ethnic minorities.” A recent Irrawaddyarticle likewise said “they are persecuted economically and denied basic rights of citizenship.” Being understood as refugees, not only the Thai government but also INGOs, UN agencies and bilateral aid agencies should extend their “protection” mandates to cover these individuals.
I recently spoke with an acquaintance who works in Mae Yao District of Chiang Rai province. He informed me that the Thai Forestry Department had already begun preparations for the establishment of a new conservation area in the region. The site will be called Mae Yao Conservation Area and is set to cover 400,000 rai of land along the Gok River of Mae Yao District. The funds for the project have reportedly been already granted to the Forestry Department and a local Forestry Department office already established. While the Forestry Department appears to have begun its preparations, the establishment of the conservation area has still not been officially announced. The acquaintance works with Mien, Karen, Akha and Lahu communities living in 17 villages situated in the proposed conservation area and believes that without strong and organized opposition by local communities the residents of these villages will face evictions should the proposed Mae Yao Conservation Area be established (or unless some agreeable form of community forest legislation is passed). Unfortunately, I cannot provide much more detail, but you may wish to follow up with the Mirror Art Foundation which also works in the area.
I would like to contribute and have written the website principals, but want to ask all those reading here as to what exactly is being done to classify certain people in Thailand as political prisoners and to keep track of them.
Thank you!
Frank
Not to step in, but I spent 25 years in Saudi Arabia and Iran, and can offer a similar opinion to Kim that things in Thailand are not that far off in terms of power of the police, of scope of human rights abuses, of absence of protection against human and civil rights violations, and of absence of relatively fair and just treatment overall by the governments of their respective populations.
Mariner, you make a sensible suggestion about researching the application of the LM law to understand its legal scope. However, this won’t work in Thailand. As exemplified in the Nicolaides case, the statements that are alleged to violate the LM law cannot even be stated in court during the accused’s trial, because that would constitute LM! Unlike in the West, you are not going to find published court opinions that analyze the statements in terms of the law’s provisions.
Thus there are no guiding principles on the scope of the law, which leads to exactly what we see: arbitrary use of the law, and self-censorship by individuals as well as the media in order to stay far away from the broad and blurry line that separates legal from illegal speech.
The new minister of ICT, the Ministry of Culture, the Ministry of Justice, and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs are making things pretty warm for journalists, academics, and other social critics in Thailand right now. There seems to be a chilling effect on both the news the news folks are willing to cover and the topics they are willing to comment upon. The Foreign Affairs Ministry just instructed Royal Thai embassies around the world to publicize to foreigners just how seriously the Thai government considers lese-majeste accusations, a move that I don’t think is going to cast Thailand in a very favorable light with potential tourists. These ministries are being led by … appointees of the Democrat led government, so while their aim may be to stiffle UDD dissent, they are giving Thailand a black eye with the international media and causing many expats to question how much longer they really want to spend living in Thailand. One academic I know, an Australian, said he would submit his review of the economic impact on tourism caused by the current troubles to his Thai university the day he gets on the airplane to head back home!
My guess is that … they think they have a god-given right to throw their weight around. When all is said and done, it is one of those organizations involved in the very serious business of myth-making about national institutions and Thai history as legend rather than as a social history. …
Some good points here and I’d like to add a couple of comments. Firstly, Thailand isn’t that bad when it comes to agreeing to International Human Rights Standards. It just recently agreed to the Convention Against Torture, a big and important step. When it comes to the rest of ASEAN, it is much better (admittedly, not a great bunch of countries to compare with), with about 9 treaties – Singapore etc have around 3.
Also, even though it hasn’t agreed to the Refugee convention, in an unofficial way it nearly does comply to much of it.
However, these legal standards are irrelevant when we look at what happens on the ground, and here Thailand is in a disastrous spiral, particularly in the last year.
The problem may not be too much power to the government, but in a sense not enough. That ISOC can go almost rogue in its actions, and that the government is paralyzed from making decisions because of lock outs etc, means that other non elected sections have power to abuse.
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Tej Bunnag shows the way
The only moves so far known to be being made are to make the law even stronger and more draconian. So what’s he on about? Notice that Dej says “amend” not abolish.
Thailand, international human rights and ISOC
Thailand’s welcoming hand Cartoon Harn Lay
http://democracyforburma.wordpress.com/2009/01/28/thailands-welcoming-hand-cartoon/
Two more publications on life after Nargis
POST NARGIS SOCIAL IMPACTS MONITORING : NOV.08
http://www.aseansec.org/CN-SocialImpactMonitoring-November08.pdf
Laos too poor to get any poorer
I wonder what is the level of income of Mr Somchit comparing to the average of folks he talks about ? 😉
also of all those who are leaders or officials there (government, army, police etc.)
do they also ahdere to “sufficiency” principle ?
does Mr Somchit grow his own vegetables ? 😀
Laos too poor to get any poorer
Well, let’s see. The subsistence agricultural economy is better for the people because they aren’t affected by events in the rest of the world, so it’s a good thing the country isn’t developed, but the government thinks development would be good for the people and so wants to promote industrialization.
Sounds about right for a Communist country.
The King Never Smiles?
Mango:
It would be interesting to know what part the Thai Military and Bureaucracy played in the enslavement and murder of tens of thousands of poor Thais by their allies, the Japanese, in 1941-45.
Lèse-majesté damages the monarchy and freedom
Frank: They seem to be sending this to multiple persons. Great strategy – talk to high level people in a government that has made LM their highest priority. Who gives them such strategic advice? Actually, this stand makes the point for the Thai govt – make people too scared to take on LM.
Lèse-majesté damages the monarchy and freedom
Here’s how AI replied to my telephone clal yesterday morning:
My concern was also expressed to AI HQ yesterday by phone. This is what they sent back to me.
“Dear Frank,
Thank you for your voicemail. Amnesty has decided to take up this matter privately with the Thai authorities at very high levels (rather than, at this point at least, to issue something publicly). We appreciate that lese majeste is a concern to many people both within and outside of Thailand—-and that Amnesty’s decision might also be disappointing—-but we reached this decision after considerable strategizing as to how we might most effectively influence the situation. Note that we will also be highlighting the issue in the 2009 Amnesty International Annual Report (due out in early May).”
Benjamin Zawacki
Researcher, Southeast Asia
Amnesty International, International Secretariat
1 Easton Street, London WC1X 0DW, UK
Mobile (Thai): +66 (0)81 138 1912
Mobile (UK): +44 (0)793098054
Tel: +44 (0)20 7413 5908
Lèse-majesté damages the monarchy and freedom
Mariner: I wonder if this will do it? http://www.routledge.com/books/Truth-on-Trial-in-Thailand-isbn9780415414258. Due out soon, but listed at $150! Yikes.
Thailand, international human rights and ISOC
Thailand holds 78 more Burma boat people
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-world/thailand-holds-78-more-burma-boat-people-20090127-7r2j.html
Thailand, international human rights and ISOC
QUOTE OF THE DAY-We are the victims. Somehow we serve as a sponge to receive all these economic migrants – Tharit Charungvat, spokesman for Thailand’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs
http://www.irrawaddy.org/index.php
The King Never Smiles?
Proud to be Thai:
Never colonized? Do the years 1941 to 1945 not count?
Thailand, international human rights and ISOC
A relevant point to raise here is the problematic classifications of people leaving Burma as either “refugees” or “economic migrants.” In this contribution, Paul Busbarat identifies the Rohingya as refugees. So does Andrew Walker in his opinion piece on “Abhisit’s human rights challenge.” However, Tharit Charungvat, speaking on behalf of Thailand’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs complained recently regarding the Rohingya that Thailand was “a sponge to receive all these economic migrants.”
The reason that “there are no permanent camps or NGO offices to help them [the Rohingya ‘boat people’] on a regular basis,” is not, as Busbarat suggests, because “these Rohingya migratory flows are seasonal.” Rather, it is because many INGOs, UN agencies, bilateral aid agencies and the Thai government consider them “economic migrants” not “refugees.”
The notion that “refugees” are only those fleeing conflict in eastern Burma and now residing within designated refugee camps and “economic migrants” are everyone else from Burma now in Thailand needs to be more aggressively challenged. Andrew Walker stated the Rohingya were refugees because they were “escaping from the Burmese regime’s persecution of ethnic minorities.” A recent Irrawaddy article likewise said “they are persecuted economically and denied basic rights of citizenship.” Being understood as refugees, not only the Thai government but also INGOs, UN agencies and bilateral aid agencies should extend their “protection” mandates to cover these individuals.
Northern Thailand’s specter of eviction
I recently spoke with an acquaintance who works in Mae Yao District of Chiang Rai province. He informed me that the Thai Forestry Department had already begun preparations for the establishment of a new conservation area in the region. The site will be called Mae Yao Conservation Area and is set to cover 400,000 rai of land along the Gok River of Mae Yao District. The funds for the project have reportedly been already granted to the Forestry Department and a local Forestry Department office already established. While the Forestry Department appears to have begun its preparations, the establishment of the conservation area has still not been officially announced. The acquaintance works with Mien, Karen, Akha and Lahu communities living in 17 villages situated in the proposed conservation area and believes that without strong and organized opposition by local communities the residents of these villages will face evictions should the proposed Mae Yao Conservation Area be established (or unless some agreeable form of community forest legislation is passed). Unfortunately, I cannot provide much more detail, but you may wish to follow up with the Mirror Art Foundation which also works in the area.
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
Political prisoners in Thailand…
I would like to contribute and have written the website principals, but want to ask all those reading here as to what exactly is being done to classify certain people in Thailand as political prisoners and to keep track of them.
Thank you!
Frank
Update on Harry Nicolaides
Not to step in, but I spent 25 years in Saudi Arabia and Iran, and can offer a similar opinion to Kim that things in Thailand are not that far off in terms of power of the police, of scope of human rights abuses, of absence of protection against human and civil rights violations, and of absence of relatively fair and just treatment overall by the governments of their respective populations.
Lèse-majesté damages the monarchy and freedom
Mariner, you make a sensible suggestion about researching the application of the LM law to understand its legal scope. However, this won’t work in Thailand. As exemplified in the Nicolaides case, the statements that are alleged to violate the LM law cannot even be stated in court during the accused’s trial, because that would constitute LM! Unlike in the West, you are not going to find published court opinions that analyze the statements in terms of the law’s provisions.
Thus there are no guiding principles on the scope of the law, which leads to exactly what we see: arbitrary use of the law, and self-censorship by individuals as well as the media in order to stay far away from the broad and blurry line that separates legal from illegal speech.
By the way, Thailand is not a common law country.
Abhisit’s human rights challenge
The new minister of ICT, the Ministry of Culture, the Ministry of Justice, and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs are making things pretty warm for journalists, academics, and other social critics in Thailand right now. There seems to be a chilling effect on both the news the news folks are willing to cover and the topics they are willing to comment upon. The Foreign Affairs Ministry just instructed Royal Thai embassies around the world to publicize to foreigners just how seriously the Thai government considers lese-majeste accusations, a move that I don’t think is going to cast Thailand in a very favorable light with potential tourists. These ministries are being led by … appointees of the Democrat led government, so while their aim may be to stiffle UDD dissent, they are giving Thailand a black eye with the international media and causing many expats to question how much longer they really want to spend living in Thailand. One academic I know, an Australian, said he would submit his review of the economic impact on tourism caused by the current troubles to his Thai university the day he gets on the airplane to head back home!
Academic leadership
My guess is that … they think they have a god-given right to throw their weight around. When all is said and done, it is one of those organizations involved in the very serious business of myth-making about national institutions and Thai history as legend rather than as a social history. …
Thailand, international human rights and ISOC
Some good points here and I’d like to add a couple of comments. Firstly, Thailand isn’t that bad when it comes to agreeing to International Human Rights Standards. It just recently agreed to the Convention Against Torture, a big and important step. When it comes to the rest of ASEAN, it is much better (admittedly, not a great bunch of countries to compare with), with about 9 treaties – Singapore etc have around 3.
Also, even though it hasn’t agreed to the Refugee convention, in an unofficial way it nearly does comply to much of it.
However, these legal standards are irrelevant when we look at what happens on the ground, and here Thailand is in a disastrous spiral, particularly in the last year.
The problem may not be too much power to the government, but in a sense not enough. That ISOC can go almost rogue in its actions, and that the government is paralyzed from making decisions because of lock outs etc, means that other non elected sections have power to abuse.