Saint Ji is saintly precisely because he has never had the power to do whatever he felt necessary (to, oh… let’s say 3M people) to do to produce the utopia which would surely come if only his ideas were implemented properly and not sabotaged or obstructed by those 3M skulls all nicely piled up in pyramids.
As a voice in the wilderness, it’s not a bad idea to have a few of this type extant to say the unsayable from time to time… even if it is mixed in with a lot of marxist codswallop.
But to let the guy be in charge of more than a dog pound – haven’t any of you folks read your history books? The wise Mr. Schwartz excepted, of course.
I’m certainly no huge fan of the Devaraja silliness which things have descended to in Thailand, but black cat, white cat and all that… Monarchical Thailand has lagged behind greatly in the regional skull pyramid building stakes these last 60 years and one has to wonder if there isn’t some small correlation.
That there will be hell to pay when You Know Who pines for the Fjords is another thing entirely. The one point I will agree on with the marxists is that eventually a contradiction will bite you in the posterior, no matter what you do.
Beyond the day-to-day hysteria created by this law, The Times points out the biggest problem : “This does Thailand no good at all. It will inevitably colour judgment on the King’s record.”
Call it backfire, the Streisand effect etc.
The best proof : we are talking about it, right now.
😉
The technicality is : the lese-majeste law is sustainable only… if you don’t use it.
As soon as you start to use it on a day-to-day basis, with sometimes some dirty politician agenda… well the law just implodes. And backfires.
And this is exactly what begins to happen.
The thai establishment is so narrow minded, so dull-witted, so obsessive that they don’t understand the risk.
The risk that Rama IX could be remembered one day as “The King Who Needed A Law to Be Respected”.
Hats up to Ji! A socialist Siamese Socrates who shows a real care for the well being of ordinary Thai citizens by dissenting and having the the courage to tell the truth about royalist-nationalist domination Thais are made to be grateful for being born Thai and live as their freedom to be passive docile subjects
Is Lese Majeste in the eye of the beholder?
Are not those accusing others of insulting the Monarchy are actually guilty of lese majeste? By a disrespectful image of the monarch as weak and liable to collapse from the slightest criticism?
And thinking themselves outside and above the law-in a kind of Sovereign position-emptying the law and institution of monarchy of any meaning, power and value by using LM accusations as a political tool to attack imaginary enemies. Impose a silence of servitude upon truth-telling and debate in Thai society on behalf/in the name of protecting the monarchy whilst promoting the power and interests of elites red and yellow and military. I was aways taught that in a democracy the people are soveriegn!
The fundamental problem is that using lese majeste is a very powerful weapon in Thailand, and far too many retired army and police, as well as current politicians, are prepared to seek shreds of evidence of disloyalty and use that to try to knock opponents out of the game. These people filing the cases are ones who disregard the speech of the King several years ago, when he said that all persons, even himself, can be criticized based on a reasoned argument.
Like the Times leader writer, almost all of us tend to assume that the King has been a source of stability in Thailand over the last 60 years. The time has come for everybody interested in the history of Thailand to consider the question, “To what extent, if at all, is this assumption true?”
The majority of Thais, including beggars and the poor, experience insult and disrespect on a daily basis by the ruling elite. Their democratic vote is not even respected.
But when anyone says anything slightly critical about the monarchy (which is supported by the hard earned money of these ordinary Thais) they are locked up as criminals.
Is Thailand a democracy? Where is the law to protect these ordinary Thais, the rural and urban poor from daily insult ?
Frank: Thanks for your response. What I am interested in seeing and reading is a translation of the law/s under which lese majeste is considered and people are sentenced.
Good editorial but rather too fawning. Where’s the evidence for “It is the greatest disrespect to an institution that has upheld Thais’ freedom for two generations”?
I feel safe. I feel hope having Giles Ji Ungpakorn in the country and the region. I look forward to see his career soar to the leadership of Thailand.
Be careful of what you wish for, I’m sure early in his career, professor of philosophy, Abimael Guzm├бn also had some adoring students who also thought he was a a brilliant scholar, a leader, and an “honest” man.
What Thailand needs is not an other “Sendero Luminoso,” but it’s own version of economist, Hernando de Soto and “El Otro Sendero“.
Not quite sure whether you mean a monograph of the entire law, including Article 112 or just Article 112. Several translations are available, including, of course, of the entire Thai Criminal Code and the Constitution.
Are you referring to an overall treatise and analysis or just specific sections that center on the royal family and how it shall be protected? The Thai Criminal Code, translated by Mr. Yongyuth V’s Yuthankun, 2005-2008, cost me 250 Baht in the past. Full contact and publications info from this source is available on its website, in Thai, at http://www.soutpaisallaw.com
The Criminal Code is translated on a facing page format, Thai on left, English on right. Translations are near-perfect, but it helps if you can read Thai obviously. Book !!, Specific Offenses, begins with those against the royal family and monarchy. Chapter 2, Offenses Against the Internal Security of the Kingdom, is also replete with phrases that can lead to being connected with insulting the monarchy, depending on who deems.
After the recent case of an Australian being gaoled in Thailand for publishing a book containing a paragraph that was deemed by the Thai authorities to break their Lese Majeste law there is a danger that more Australians may be at risk.
Even if an Australian makes remarks in Australia about the Thai Monarchy, the Thai authorities may arrest, charge and gaol the person immediately without bail if they subsequently visit Thailand.
Being arrested and gaoled is likely at the least to give a normal Australian, casual of people in authority and status, a dreadful
surprise, spoil the persons holiday and possibly lead to up to 15 years separation from their family.
Recently, the Thai government has signalled that the maximum penalty for lese majeste be increased to 25 years, which, combined with meals mostly consisting of Thai rancid prawns and chillies and sharing a cell with 50 to 60 mostly non-english speakers, to most people would be equivalent to a whole of life sentence.
Because it appears this risk does not apply to any other country and is unique to Thailand I believe there are grounds for recommending this extra-territorial risk be explicit in your travel advisories for Thailand as noted in the following email to your Smart Traveller section.
I realize this thread is more or less dead, but amid all the gloom surrounding thai politics lately, I felt like making a contribution with little cheering up factor.
And what better then, than fresh quote from everybodys favourite, be it love-to-hate or love-to-love, Thai politician:
Noji Shibata : Do you regret your decision to become politician?
Thaksin Shinawatra: Yes, certainly I do. Maybe I am being punished for something I did in my former life…You see, I lost my money and assets. Politics is a job which must be handled by “Doraemon” not by “Nobita”…
/end quote
I wonder if when he refers to himself as Japans anime ambassador, immensely popular also in Thailand, he realizes how apt the comparison actually is.
I mean, those familiar with Doraemon should know that even though Nobita is the major screwup in the series, Doraemons futuristic gadgets always end up putting him in far worse situations.
Improving Nobitas future turns out to be a task no abundant little Catsin can handle.
In one of the rumored season finales of the series, as revealed by the creator, Doraemons battery power runs out leaving Nobita ‘out of robot’.
Nobita then chooses to study hard and eventually becomes a professor in robotics. He resurrects Thaksin, sorry Doraemon, and lives happily ever after.
The lesson? Doraemons eye catching gadgets was never what Nobita needed to success in life.
He needed to learn and appreciate the true value of friendship, putting others before himself, of honest work. Something like that…
Also from the same news article (see “the nation” article linked below), we learn that Thaksin is running low on dough. He can only afford the suite at one of the lesser 5-star hotels in Dubai, AND he had to sell his premier league football team .
Some people really have it rough..
Interview with Thaksin published in Asahi Newspaper on January 17, 2009
I got it from a secondary source though:
to support my point: The majority of posters in Prachathai (Thai version) who post in Thai often criticize the establishment harshly. It does not seem to me that they allow themselves to be ‘conditioned’ ,or believe that what they say are ‘un-Thai’. The stereotype of Thai people as being conformist and ‘programmed’ to hold back their view needs to be stabilized. But I’m not saying that all Thais are now very articulate and bold in voicing their opinion. I just want to point out that things are changing (as opposed to the view given by Frank G. Anderson which seems to suggest that most Thais have internalized submissiveness and conformity).
I think the following is not the case anymore. Things are changing now. More and more thais refuse to be ‘conditioned’. Now the main thing that prevent these Thais from artculating their thoughts out loud is the legal issue.
Quote: “Regarding locally-based Thais, most although qualified to translate and express their opinions professionally refuse to because they have been ‘conditioned’ into believing that criticizing certain things here is not ‘the Thai way.’ Sort of how the old phrase ‘un-American’ used to be used”
Thaneeya,
Does love or respect for someone also mean that u should never ever think about criticizing them? if u see a person as a fully-realized human being rather than god, does it mean that u want to insult that person? Thailand has never been ‘formally colonized’ and that seems to give a number of Thais a sense of pride, but if u read just a bit more u will know that things are more complicated than that and other countries hardly see Thailand as a ‘free country’ during the era of western colonialism. I think cultural sensitivity is important and western hegemony must be resisted but this thread hardly has anything to do with that. it’s everything to do with basic human rights and the freedom to be a thinking, articulate individual, and this is not limited to any national in particular. Isn’t a Thai (like me for example) has a right to be a thinking, critically-minded individual, and at the same time has respect for a particular personage? I have a question for u: why people who bring up arguments like yours always assume that everyone who does not agree with u must be on Thaksin or ‘some dark/evil figure’s pay roll?????
Oh dear, another stooge writing for NM. Thaneeya makes claims without having read the book and reproduces old and discredited accusations. And then tops it off by being racist. How low can you go?
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Repression
Saint Ji is saintly precisely because he has never had the power to do whatever he felt necessary (to, oh… let’s say 3M people) to do to produce the utopia which would surely come if only his ideas were implemented properly and not sabotaged or obstructed by those 3M skulls all nicely piled up in pyramids.
As a voice in the wilderness, it’s not a bad idea to have a few of this type extant to say the unsayable from time to time… even if it is mixed in with a lot of marxist codswallop.
But to let the guy be in charge of more than a dog pound – haven’t any of you folks read your history books? The wise Mr. Schwartz excepted, of course.
I’m certainly no huge fan of the Devaraja silliness which things have descended to in Thailand, but black cat, white cat and all that… Monarchical Thailand has lagged behind greatly in the regional skull pyramid building stakes these last 60 years and one has to wonder if there isn’t some small correlation.
That there will be hell to pay when You Know Who pines for the Fjords is another thing entirely. The one point I will agree on with the marxists is that eventually a contradiction will bite you in the posterior, no matter what you do.
Lèse-majesté damages the monarchy and freedom
“Fawning” I don’t know, but balanced surely.
Beyond the day-to-day hysteria created by this law, The Times points out the biggest problem : “This does Thailand no good at all. It will inevitably colour judgment on the King’s record.”
Call it backfire, the Streisand effect etc.
The best proof : we are talking about it, right now.
😉
The technicality is : the lese-majeste law is sustainable only… if you don’t use it.
As soon as you start to use it on a day-to-day basis, with sometimes some dirty politician agenda… well the law just implodes. And backfires.
And this is exactly what begins to happen.
The thai establishment is so narrow minded, so dull-witted, so obsessive that they don’t understand the risk.
The risk that Rama IX could be remembered one day as “The King Who Needed A Law to Be Respected”.
Repression
Hats up to Ji! A socialist Siamese Socrates who shows a real care for the well being of ordinary Thai citizens by dissenting and having the the courage to tell the truth about royalist-nationalist domination Thais are made to be grateful for being born Thai and live as their freedom to be passive docile subjects
Lèse-majesté damages the monarchy and freedom
Is Lese Majeste in the eye of the beholder?
Are not those accusing others of insulting the Monarchy are actually guilty of lese majeste? By a disrespectful image of the monarch as weak and liable to collapse from the slightest criticism?
And thinking themselves outside and above the law-in a kind of Sovereign position-emptying the law and institution of monarchy of any meaning, power and value by using LM accusations as a political tool to attack imaginary enemies. Impose a silence of servitude upon truth-telling and debate in Thai society on behalf/in the name of protecting the monarchy whilst promoting the power and interests of elites red and yellow and military. I was aways taught that in a democracy the people are soveriegn!
Lèse-majesté damages the monarchy and freedom
The fundamental problem is that using lese majeste is a very powerful weapon in Thailand, and far too many retired army and police, as well as current politicians, are prepared to seek shreds of evidence of disloyalty and use that to try to knock opponents out of the game. These people filing the cases are ones who disregard the speech of the King several years ago, when he said that all persons, even himself, can be criticized based on a reasoned argument.
Lèse-majesté damages the monarchy and freedom
Like the Times leader writer, almost all of us tend to assume that the King has been a source of stability in Thailand over the last 60 years. The time has come for everybody interested in the history of Thailand to consider the question, “To what extent, if at all, is this assumption true?”
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
Malansky,
The majority of Thais, including beggars and the poor, experience insult and disrespect on a daily basis by the ruling elite. Their democratic vote is not even respected.
But when anyone says anything slightly critical about the monarchy (which is supported by the hard earned money of these ordinary Thais) they are locked up as criminals.
Is Thailand a democracy? Where is the law to protect these ordinary Thais, the rural and urban poor from daily insult ?
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
Frank: Thanks for your response. What I am interested in seeing and reading is a translation of the law/s under which lese majeste is considered and people are sentenced.
Lèse-majesté damages the monarchy and freedom
Good editorial but rather too fawning. Where’s the evidence for “It is the greatest disrespect to an institution that has upheld Thais’ freedom for two generations”?
Burma’s 2008 Constitution in translation
Hi and many thanks
I would like to have a look at the Junta’s road map with some comments. Where could I find it?
Thanks again
Repression
re: Susie Wong
I feel safe. I feel hope having Giles Ji Ungpakorn in the country and the region. I look forward to see his career soar to the leadership of Thailand.
Be careful of what you wish for, I’m sure early in his career, professor of philosophy, Abimael Guzm├бn also had some adoring students who also thought he was a a brilliant scholar, a leader, and an “honest” man.
What Thailand needs is not an other “Sendero Luminoso,” but it’s own version of economist, Hernando de Soto and “El Otro Sendero“.
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
Ralph…
I also would like a ref for the text..
but
see http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2009/01/extraterritorial-application.html
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
Not quite sure whether you mean a monograph of the entire law, including Article 112 or just Article 112. Several translations are available, including, of course, of the entire Thai Criminal Code and the Constitution.
Are you referring to an overall treatise and analysis or just specific sections that center on the royal family and how it shall be protected? The Thai Criminal Code, translated by Mr. Yongyuth V’s Yuthankun, 2005-2008, cost me 250 Baht in the past. Full contact and publications info from this source is available on its website, in Thai, at http://www.soutpaisallaw.com
The Criminal Code is translated on a facing page format, Thai on left, English on right. Translations are near-perfect, but it helps if you can read Thai obviously. Book !!, Specific Offenses, begins with those against the royal family and monarchy. Chapter 2, Offenses Against the Internal Security of the Kingdom, is also replete with phrases that can lead to being connected with insulting the monarchy, depending on who deems.
Pressure builds on Australian government
The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Australia
dear minister,
After the recent case of an Australian being gaoled in Thailand for publishing a book containing a paragraph that was deemed by the Thai authorities to break their Lese Majeste law there is a danger that more Australians may be at risk.
Even if an Australian makes remarks in Australia about the Thai Monarchy, the Thai authorities may arrest, charge and gaol the person immediately without bail if they subsequently visit Thailand.
Being arrested and gaoled is likely at the least to give a normal Australian, casual of people in authority and status, a dreadful
surprise, spoil the persons holiday and possibly lead to up to 15 years separation from their family.
Recently, the Thai government has signalled that the maximum penalty for lese majeste be increased to 25 years, which, combined with meals mostly consisting of Thai rancid prawns and chillies and sharing a cell with 50 to 60 mostly non-english speakers, to most people would be equivalent to a whole of life sentence.
Because it appears this risk does not apply to any other country and is unique to Thailand I believe there are grounds for recommending this extra-territorial risk be explicit in your travel advisories for Thailand as noted in the following email to your Smart Traveller section.
Thai politics quote of the day
I realize this thread is more or less dead, but amid all the gloom surrounding thai politics lately, I felt like making a contribution with little cheering up factor.
And what better then, than fresh quote from everybodys favourite, be it love-to-hate or love-to-love, Thai politician:
Noji Shibata : Do you regret your decision to become politician?
Thaksin Shinawatra: Yes, certainly I do. Maybe I am being punished for something I did in my former life…You see, I lost my money and assets. Politics is a job which must be handled by “Doraemon” not by “Nobita”…
/end quote
I wonder if when he refers to himself as Japans anime ambassador, immensely popular also in Thailand, he realizes how apt the comparison actually is.
I mean, those familiar with Doraemon should know that even though Nobita is the major screwup in the series, Doraemons futuristic gadgets always end up putting him in far worse situations.
Improving Nobitas future turns out to be a task no abundant little Catsin can handle.
In one of the rumored season finales of the series, as revealed by the creator, Doraemons battery power runs out leaving Nobita ‘out of robot’.
Nobita then chooses to study hard and eventually becomes a professor in robotics. He resurrects Thaksin, sorry Doraemon, and lives happily ever after.
The lesson? Doraemons eye catching gadgets was never what Nobita needed to success in life.
He needed to learn and appreciate the true value of friendship, putting others before himself, of honest work. Something like that…
Also from the same news article (see “the nation” article linked below), we learn that Thaksin is running low on dough. He can only afford the suite at one of the lesser 5-star hotels in Dubai, AND he had to sell his premier league football team .
Some people really have it rough..
Interview with Thaksin published in Asahi Newspaper on January 17, 2009
I got it from a secondary source though:
Excerpts of the interview in The Nation, Thu jan 22nd
“With less money, Thaksin lives a costly life abroad.”
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/01/22/politics/politics_30093933.php
The King Never Smiles?
to support my point: The majority of posters in Prachathai (Thai version) who post in Thai often criticize the establishment harshly. It does not seem to me that they allow themselves to be ‘conditioned’ ,or believe that what they say are ‘un-Thai’. The stereotype of Thai people as being conformist and ‘programmed’ to hold back their view needs to be stabilized. But I’m not saying that all Thais are now very articulate and bold in voicing their opinion. I just want to point out that things are changing (as opposed to the view given by Frank G. Anderson which seems to suggest that most Thais have internalized submissiveness and conformity).
The King Never Smiles?
I think the following is not the case anymore. Things are changing now. More and more thais refuse to be ‘conditioned’. Now the main thing that prevent these Thais from artculating their thoughts out loud is the legal issue.
Quote: “Regarding locally-based Thais, most although qualified to translate and express their opinions professionally refuse to because they have been ‘conditioned’ into believing that criticizing certain things here is not ‘the Thai way.’ Sort of how the old phrase ‘un-American’ used to be used”
The King Never Smiles?
Thaneeya,
Does love or respect for someone also mean that u should never ever think about criticizing them? if u see a person as a fully-realized human being rather than god, does it mean that u want to insult that person? Thailand has never been ‘formally colonized’ and that seems to give a number of Thais a sense of pride, but if u read just a bit more u will know that things are more complicated than that and other countries hardly see Thailand as a ‘free country’ during the era of western colonialism. I think cultural sensitivity is important and western hegemony must be resisted but this thread hardly has anything to do with that. it’s everything to do with basic human rights and the freedom to be a thinking, articulate individual, and this is not limited to any national in particular. Isn’t a Thai (like me for example) has a right to be a thinking, critically-minded individual, and at the same time has respect for a particular personage? I have a question for u: why people who bring up arguments like yours always assume that everyone who does not agree with u must be on Thaksin or ‘some dark/evil figure’s pay roll?????
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
Anyone able to provide a site where there is a good translation of the lese majeste law?
The King Never Smiles?
Oh dear, another stooge writing for NM. Thaneeya makes claims without having read the book and reproduces old and discredited accusations. And then tops it off by being racist. How low can you go?