The steady diminution in public support and respect for the monarchy in the United Kingdom stands as a salutary example of what might happen if / when open debate is allowed. As I said in a recent post relating to LM / the Harry Nicolaides case …
In the case of the UK, the general decline in respect for the institution of monarchy / members of the Royal Family is sometimes said to date from 1969 and the broadcast of the “Royal Family” documentary. This rather humdrum film showed a mass audience – for the first time – footage of the Queen and her family engaged in such activities as having a barbecue, walking dogs and watching TV. In other words, it stripped away a lot of the mystique and showed that, in fact, they were ordinary people. Once you start down that path, it’s a slippery slope, as Bagehot noted:
“There is no authentic explicit information as to what the Queen can do . . . That secrecy is, however, essential to the utility of English royalty as it now is . . . royalty is to be reverenced, and if you begin to poke about you cannot reverence it. When there is a select committee on the Queen, the charm of royalty will be gone. Its mystery is its life. We must not let in daylight upon magic.”
Bagehot was writing about the situation in the UK some 152 years ago; change the date and the country, and his comments are just as relevant today. Doubtless, too, someone with a good British education would be familiar with Bagehot.
1. ” … he will write the inevitable book about his Thai “ordeal” and hard life in prison …”. Perhaps he will write a book, which would doubtless sell better than the original offending tome (but which presumably wouldn’t be available at Bangkok Airport bookstalls with all the other ‘Set In Thailand’ stuff). Levity to one side, I’ve been inside numerous Bangkok and provincial prisons, as well as Pentonville, thankfully only visiting, and anyone who thinks that life inside is easy is deluded.
2. There is no LM law in the UK. The fact is that it’s been open season on the British Royal Family for several decades now. British libel law, which places the onus on the person who says they’ve been libeled to prove that what’s been said about is NOT true, rather than requiring the person accused of libel to prove that something is true, plays a large part in that.
“Farang” or the western foreigner will never understand Thai and our heart to beloved King.
His majesty the King Bhumipol, the Great, is the heart of Thai people. In my life I have never seen anyone who devotes himself to the people without any expecting return. The King, he only wants to see his people to live the better life. More than 60 years he has spent to improve our quality of lives, I wonder if this guy, Handley, can do that. Handley can only write the articles that discredit our royal family according to the order of his payer.
Not only King Bhumipol, our country has survived any crisis because our kings from the past until now, have devoted their abilities and strength to save our land.
That’s why we have never been the western world’s colony.
This book was written from the only one side of informations which want to destroy our monarchy. Instead of studying of our king’s contributions and learning why Thais love and respect their king so much. But he choose to listen to the gossip which was released from the rebel gang who want to demolish our monarchy and exotic culture.
The corruptions in Thailand are caused by the politician, especially Handley’s employer who paid for this article, not the King.
This book is far from the good book, and the author is deserved what he did now.
The man has no right to insult others !!!!…no matter who they are King or even baggars…
One must respect other countries’ law….
Especially when you are in that country.
If Mr. Steve (see above / he replied to a Thai man. I think he is !) that Thai people also have to respect Universal Human rights as expressed in the United Cations Charter Declaration on Human Rights.
I just want to say that Freedom of express has it own limitation,,,
you can say things that insult or harm any one..
Stave must go and study at kindergarden again. Perhaps the babies overthere have smarter brain than Steve has !
Phil – I used to visit Thailand several times a year. However the events of the past few weeks – the constitutional coup, the attacks on free speech, the massacre of boat people – have prompted me to stage a personal boycott of this country.
Why should my hard-earned money go towards supporting a cynical elite whose values make my skin crawl, when I can spend it in a far more deserving country?
As a Thai myself, I am all for this law to be abolished. King Bhumibol himself has been an exemplary ruler of Thailand and he himself does not need this law to protect any criticism. The Thais know that any criticism about His majesty cannot be true, and those rumours (unless backed with extremely solid evidences) would not be able to demerit His majesty in any way.
I agree that this law has been a political weapon for politicians to destroy their opposing sides. The ousted PM Thaksin (who is one of the most competent PMs in Thailand in many Thais’ perspective)’s popularity was dwindled by the accusations that he ‘wants to abolish the Monarchy’. Thai economic crippled since he was ousted, and up until now I have yet to see any evidence that Thaksin himself had even defamed or insulted the royal family in any way.
The problem is no one would dare to propose this change of law but the King himself. If any politician proposes the change of this law in the Parliament, they will become the victim of political attack themselves. The only person who would be able to abolish this law is the King, but I wonder if that is possible for His Majesty to do that being that the King’s duty is to give Royal Assent to the law, but he cannot propose any law himself.
I have not read the book Mr. Nicolaides wrote, but if there is no untrue criticism about the Monarch or no harsh, offensive insult in his statement, I support him to be granted the Royal Prerogative.
My sentiments to the Nicolaides family. Please know that there is another Thai who wishes him well.
Unfortunately SW, the system is completely rigged against anyone with even the slightest socialist credentials or ability to think things through in a fairly logical fashion. Instead we have to be content with capitalist/ elitists like Thaksin posing as reformers so that they can take over the prime role of parasite-in-chief.
I would take Giles to task a bit. He really needs to distance himself from both sets of political excrement, if he is to maintain some cred.
To me, Giles Ji Ungpakorn is an inspirational. He is blessed with remarkable talent that is all his own. The most important thing about Ji is the direction he takes. He is super-elite by background yet he dresses and acts like an ordinary Thai. He writes his own road.
Giles is like one-stop shopping where you find a brilliant scholar, a leader, and an honest man, all in one person. Virtues define his character. He knows this is politics, but he will not compromise his vision of a better Thailand.
I feel safe. I feel hope having Giles Ji Ungpakorn in the country and the region. I look forward to see his career soar to the leadership of Thailand.
re. Free Harry #25. Please put the petition on your website. Although I’m absolutely opposed to the imprisonment of anyone on such a ridiculous charge, I’m also opposed to signing a ‘petition’ which I haven’t read.
The website has 2 photos of Harry and a form asking for my name and email address. It also has the words, “Use a real address if you want it to work.” It could be from anyone, including the Thai Ministry for Certain Things.
NM readers who wish to sign petitions will find credible ones by doing a google search. Ji’s website has one, with full wording on show.
A phrase from Obama’s inauguration speech earlier today seems relevant ….
“To those who cling to power through corruption and deceit and the silencing of dissent, know that you are on the wrong side of history; but that we will extend a hand if you are willing to unclench your fist.”
PEN in Sydney and Melbourne are urging members to write to the Australian Foreign Minister and the Prime Minister. According to PEN, letters sent by PEN members is having an effect on the Australian government which has shifted its attitude and become more concerned about Nicolaides.
Harry, you absolutely have the right to write whatever you may please. An author knows where to stop and certainly what to say. Also editors usually do their job well.
I hope that you will get out of this place as soon as possible. It is a fine lesson for the rest of us to appreciate what we have (freedom to write, and the freedom to express it.)
What are the international writing unions, cogresses and associations doing???
thank you for providing copy of the text alleged by the complainant to be offensive
I presume this text has been translated to or from Thai… will there be any issue with what the judges see in Thai as to whether the translation is fair or not
I keep hearing that Thai documents, such as the Constitution, are translated ommitting such things as whether Thailand has had 75 years of democracy in english but says something about developing democracy in thai….
meanwhile we should spread this as widely as possible to obtain as much pressure on the Thai government and the elite to:
remove lese majeste as a crime altogether or
administer it only where a complaint is publicly lodged by a member of the royal family, with reasons
To: Tatterdemalian
I think you are treating Ngadeeleg patronizingly here. S/he is a very intelligent person with very good knowledge and understanding of Thailand and its people. S/ he is by no means naive when Thai and western culture is concerned. I’m a loyal follower of her blog.
To Jin, your post is long but what it suggests cannot help with the state of things in Thailand. Worse, it condones injustice under the pretense of cultural sensitivity. You say that westerners can’t understand the Thai LM laws, but in fact, everyone with common sense can see them for what they are if they are not led astrayed too much by bias, prejudice and vested interests. Your post pretends to be intelligent but those who keep a close watch on Thai politics can quickly see it for what it is.
Actually, I just watched a TV program that made fun of the British Queen and Prince Harry. Let’s see whether that TV program producers and actors will be arrested.
In addition, if possible, please remind me of the last time that the UK police arrests anyone for violating the Lèse Majesté law.
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Defending the taboo – the royal response
The steady diminution in public support and respect for the monarchy in the United Kingdom stands as a salutary example of what might happen if / when open debate is allowed. As I said in a recent post relating to LM / the Harry Nicolaides case …
In the case of the UK, the general decline in respect for the institution of monarchy / members of the Royal Family is sometimes said to date from 1969 and the broadcast of the “Royal Family” documentary. This rather humdrum film showed a mass audience – for the first time – footage of the Queen and her family engaged in such activities as having a barbecue, walking dogs and watching TV. In other words, it stripped away a lot of the mystique and showed that, in fact, they were ordinary people. Once you start down that path, it’s a slippery slope, as Bagehot noted:
“There is no authentic explicit information as to what the Queen can do . . . That secrecy is, however, essential to the utility of English royalty as it now is . . . royalty is to be reverenced, and if you begin to poke about you cannot reverence it. When there is a select committee on the Queen, the charm of royalty will be gone. Its mystery is its life. We must not let in daylight upon magic.”
Bagehot was writing about the situation in the UK some 152 years ago; change the date and the country, and his comments are just as relevant today. Doubtless, too, someone with a good British education would be familiar with Bagehot.
Statement on Harry Nicolaides
A couple of observations:
1. ” … he will write the inevitable book about his Thai “ordeal” and hard life in prison …”. Perhaps he will write a book, which would doubtless sell better than the original offending tome (but which presumably wouldn’t be available at Bangkok Airport bookstalls with all the other ‘Set In Thailand’ stuff). Levity to one side, I’ve been inside numerous Bangkok and provincial prisons, as well as Pentonville, thankfully only visiting, and anyone who thinks that life inside is easy is deluded.
2. There is no LM law in the UK. The fact is that it’s been open season on the British Royal Family for several decades now. British libel law, which places the onus on the person who says they’ve been libeled to prove that what’s been said about is NOT true, rather than requiring the person accused of libel to prove that something is true, plays a large part in that.
The King Never Smiles?
“Farang” or the western foreigner will never understand Thai and our heart to beloved King.
His majesty the King Bhumipol, the Great, is the heart of Thai people. In my life I have never seen anyone who devotes himself to the people without any expecting return. The King, he only wants to see his people to live the better life. More than 60 years he has spent to improve our quality of lives, I wonder if this guy, Handley, can do that. Handley can only write the articles that discredit our royal family according to the order of his payer.
Not only King Bhumipol, our country has survived any crisis because our kings from the past until now, have devoted their abilities and strength to save our land.
That’s why we have never been the western world’s colony.
This book was written from the only one side of informations which want to destroy our monarchy. Instead of studying of our king’s contributions and learning why Thais love and respect their king so much. But he choose to listen to the gossip which was released from the rebel gang who want to demolish our monarchy and exotic culture.
The corruptions in Thailand are caused by the politician, especially Handley’s employer who paid for this article, not the King.
This book is far from the good book, and the author is deserved what he did now.
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
The man has no right to insult others !!!!…no matter who they are King or even baggars…
One must respect other countries’ law….
Especially when you are in that country.
If Mr. Steve (see above / he replied to a Thai man. I think he is !) that Thai people also have to respect Universal Human rights as expressed in the United Cations Charter Declaration on Human Rights.
I just want to say that Freedom of express has it own limitation,,,
you can say things that insult or harm any one..
Stave must go and study at kindergarden again. Perhaps the babies overthere have smarter brain than Steve has !
Milansky
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
Phil – I used to visit Thailand several times a year. However the events of the past few weeks – the constitutional coup, the attacks on free speech, the massacre of boat people – have prompted me to stage a personal boycott of this country.
Why should my hard-earned money go towards supporting a cynical elite whose values make my skin crawl, when I can spend it in a far more deserving country?
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
As a Thai myself, I am all for this law to be abolished. King Bhumibol himself has been an exemplary ruler of Thailand and he himself does not need this law to protect any criticism. The Thais know that any criticism about His majesty cannot be true, and those rumours (unless backed with extremely solid evidences) would not be able to demerit His majesty in any way.
I agree that this law has been a political weapon for politicians to destroy their opposing sides. The ousted PM Thaksin (who is one of the most competent PMs in Thailand in many Thais’ perspective)’s popularity was dwindled by the accusations that he ‘wants to abolish the Monarchy’. Thai economic crippled since he was ousted, and up until now I have yet to see any evidence that Thaksin himself had even defamed or insulted the royal family in any way.
The problem is no one would dare to propose this change of law but the King himself. If any politician proposes the change of this law in the Parliament, they will become the victim of political attack themselves. The only person who would be able to abolish this law is the King, but I wonder if that is possible for His Majesty to do that being that the King’s duty is to give Royal Assent to the law, but he cannot propose any law himself.
I have not read the book Mr. Nicolaides wrote, but if there is no untrue criticism about the Monarch or no harsh, offensive insult in his statement, I support him to be granted the Royal Prerogative.
My sentiments to the Nicolaides family. Please know that there is another Thai who wishes him well.
Repression
Unfortunately SW, the system is completely rigged against anyone with even the slightest socialist credentials or ability to think things through in a fairly logical fashion. Instead we have to be content with capitalist/ elitists like Thaksin posing as reformers so that they can take over the prime role of parasite-in-chief.
I would take Giles to task a bit. He really needs to distance himself from both sets of political excrement, if he is to maintain some cred.
Repression
To me, Giles Ji Ungpakorn is an inspirational. He is blessed with remarkable talent that is all his own. The most important thing about Ji is the direction he takes. He is super-elite by background yet he dresses and acts like an ordinary Thai. He writes his own road.
Giles is like one-stop shopping where you find a brilliant scholar, a leader, and an honest man, all in one person. Virtues define his character. He knows this is politics, but he will not compromise his vision of a better Thailand.
I feel safe. I feel hope having Giles Ji Ungpakorn in the country and the region. I look forward to see his career soar to the leadership of Thailand.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Karen revolution and the legacy of General Bo Mya
by Daniel Pedersen
http://www.mizzima.com/news/inside-burma/1580-karen-revolution-and-the-legacy-of-general-bo-mya.html
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
re. Free Harry #25. Please put the petition on your website. Although I’m absolutely opposed to the imprisonment of anyone on such a ridiculous charge, I’m also opposed to signing a ‘petition’ which I haven’t read.
The website has 2 photos of Harry and a form asking for my name and email address. It also has the words, “Use a real address if you want it to work.” It could be from anyone, including the Thai Ministry for Certain Things.
NM readers who wish to sign petitions will find credible ones by doing a google search. Ji’s website has one, with full wording on show.
Repression
A phrase from Obama’s inauguration speech earlier today seems relevant ….
“To those who cling to power through corruption and deceit and the silencing of dissent, know that you are on the wrong side of history; but that we will extend a hand if you are willing to unclench your fist.”
Update on Harry Nicolaides
> The freedoms you so enjoy are not natural things
It is clear that you have no knowledge of human history. In hunter-gatherer societies, freedom of speech is a natural thing.
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
PEN in Sydney and Melbourne are urging members to write to the Australian Foreign Minister and the Prime Minister. According to PEN, letters sent by PEN members is having an effect on the Australian government which has shifted its attitude and become more concerned about Nicolaides.
Adam
Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
Harry, you absolutely have the right to write whatever you may please. An author knows where to stop and certainly what to say. Also editors usually do their job well.
I hope that you will get out of this place as soon as possible. It is a fine lesson for the rest of us to appreciate what we have (freedom to write, and the freedom to express it.)
What are the international writing unions, cogresses and associations doing???
Volunteering to fight in Burma
I post on New Mandala as ‘Charles F.’ I am not ‘Freebird170’ or even ‘Windrunner’.
I’m also not the consul-general of Kawthoolei.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
I do believe that Windrunner is on to something. For what it’s worth, I’ve been thinking the same thing.
Repression
thank you for providing copy of the text alleged by the complainant to be offensive
I presume this text has been translated to or from Thai… will there be any issue with what the judges see in Thai as to whether the translation is fair or not
I keep hearing that Thai documents, such as the Constitution, are translated ommitting such things as whether Thailand has had 75 years of democracy in english but says something about developing democracy in thai….
meanwhile we should spread this as widely as possible to obtain as much pressure on the Thai government and the elite to:
remove lese majeste as a crime altogether or
administer it only where a complaint is publicly lodged by a member of the royal family, with reasons
and truth must be a defence!
Update on Harry Nicolaides
To: Tatterdemalian
I think you are treating Ngadeeleg patronizingly here. S/he is a very intelligent person with very good knowledge and understanding of Thailand and its people. S/ he is by no means naive when Thai and western culture is concerned. I’m a loyal follower of her blog.
Update on Harry Nicolaides
To Jin, your post is long but what it suggests cannot help with the state of things in Thailand. Worse, it condones injustice under the pretense of cultural sensitivity. You say that westerners can’t understand the Thai LM laws, but in fact, everyone with common sense can see them for what they are if they are not led astrayed too much by bias, prejudice and vested interests. Your post pretends to be intelligent but those who keep a close watch on Thai politics can quickly see it for what it is.
Statement on Harry Nicolaides
Bruno,
Actually, I just watched a TV program that made fun of the British Queen and Prince Harry. Let’s see whether that TV program producers and actors will be arrested.
In addition, if possible, please remind me of the last time that the UK police arrests anyone for violating the Lèse Majesté law.