Evil people make money by using others and that is what Harry did, can he not make up his own characters? Does he have to voice underground communist voices in the modern world?
Soom Harry will have many new friends joining him, dont worry.
Three messages, I think, from the by-elections (and not commenting on the implications): (1) the split in TRT/PPP/PT and their inability to muster a reasonable election team shows that, finally, the post-coup strategy of dismantling the “Thaksin regine” is yielding some results; (2) the political clock has been turned back at least to the late 1990s and local power brokers are most significant again; and (3) the electorate seems tired of the ongoing standoff and want to move beyond it. Giving the Dems some time and then a new election might be a reasonable strategy as the economy tanks.
Thak’s recently reissued book has little that is different from the earlier version (from Thai Khadi). A few neat pictures and a couple of vaguely related essays, but the substance of the book is still in his thesis material.
This thread is about Handley’s book. It will continue to be the classic study of this reign. All of the other works mentioned above are good, solid and so on but Handley’s work is an eye-popper because he is a journalist who did what no acknowledged scholar of Thailand had done previously (despite claims by others such as Reynolds on another NM thread about the 10th ICTS).
machinations by the senior military and the rich families through their agents the PAD was and is a tragedy, not just a nonsense…
a continuation of 75 years of democracy cut short at every turn
anyway, thanks for the observations…
I keep saying that if the so-called elites were smart they would learn that they can live in a democratic society,
they would lose a lot of the comfort and ego satisfying they get now from treading on the (majority) buffaloes and grass roots as they stroll around their country but they could learn to compete and live with their fellow citizens, not to forget the refugees, hill tribes and other non-persons
its seems to be like talking to the israelis about living with the palestinians… they dont know how to listen
Yes, my sarcasm was mainly directed at one individual here, but also at sentiments that have been seen several times in this discussion.
I do understand your point about the moral, yet i do not completely agree. Humanitarian aid workers do boost the moral as well. Neither do i disrespect the people who have fought alongside the Karen, a friend was one of the guys from that Belgian-French contingent.
But i do believe that the foreign fighters do more harm than good by their mere presence at the borders. Negotiations happen all the time with the Junta, and have to happen. The existence of foreign fighters are a bit of a problem there.
“The nature of the enemy”. Sorry, but they are consisting of people, conscripted soldiers, career soldiers, civil servants, followers, etc. – they are humans.
During one assignment in Burma i had to have an MI escort, and of course spent much time with them while working. Over the days, we got to talk more and more, at the end we even got drunk together. And that “enemy” was simply a couple of humans caught in a terrible mess, like every Burmese is.
I don’t know how else to describe this, but that episode made me think a lot about many of my views on Burma.
Anyhow, no, i haven’t read those books, but as a German aristocrat from eastern descent – i grew up with those tales of rape, pillage and murder, many not to dissimilar of what ethnic minorities have had to endure for far too long. I have many relatives who have lost everything when they were ethnically cleansed out of their homes.
But there is a time when people have to move ahead, and let the past be past.
[…] A few months ago, in the wake of the October 7 violence, we argued that the PAD had chosen “blood rather than ballots” in their campaign to overthrow the elected government. In defence of an electoral solution, […]
Mary,
From reading your posts it appears to me that you know little or nothing about the Karens and their struggle. Nor do you seem to want to. That’s just my take on it.
I would suggest that you obtain a copy of “Revolution as Development: The Karen Self-Determination Struggle Against Ethnocracy (1949-2000) ” by Jack Fong. You can read it online at Google, or purchase a copy.
Nick Nostitz,
I really, really hope that your sentence, “But dreams of armed uprisings with rag tag armies of foreign volunteer fighters – please stop dreaming.” isn’t a reference to the moronic idea of a Karen Foreign Legion as one individual on here has suggested.
I just can’t seem to wrap my head around the idea of Karen guerrillas sitting around a campfire, singing, “Le boudin ” or marching through the jungle at 88 steps to the minute.
Additionally, calling the various Westerners who assist the KNLA – and other groups – from time to time, mercenaries is inaccurate. I don’t know of any of them who have been paid. Some of them are idealists, others adventurers. But none are mercenaries in the true sense of the word.
But that aside, I disagree with your premise that they add little to the Karen cause. I would submit to you that by their mere presence they boost the morale of the Karen soldiers. Just by the simple fact of putting boots on the ground they’re showing the Karens that they’re not forgotten; that people still care about them and consider their cause worthy enough to risk life itself.
I’m not referring to the various jackballs who show up from time to time, flitting into camps for a day or so, then scurrying back to Mae Sot to tell bullshit war stories over beer.
There are guys who have spent months and years – the best years of their lives in some cases – training, and fighting alongside the men of the KNLA. Several have died, many others have been terribly wounded. You do them a severe disservice to lump them in with men who fight only for money.
Lastly, seeing as you’re a German, have you ever read, “Other Losses” by James Bacque, or “A Terrible Revenge: The Ethnic Cleansing of the East European Germans, 1944-1950” by Alfred-Maurice de Zayas?
Yash Ghai, the Kenyan constitutional jurist who has in the last few years served as UN Special Representative on human rights in Cambodia (to the dislike of Hun Sen), has recently released an assessment of the 2008 constitution, which is online at the Burma Library:
One should be wary of the past as analogy but the structural dynamics in Burma are not unique in any real historical sense. Different context can possibly provide clues to direction and duration of conflict but the best analysis is mostly after the fact. Still, when there have been murderous regimes, there have been oppositions, some more united than others with divisions occurring along a variety of fault lines: ideology, ethnicity, religion, social class, family or clan. That someone or some group opposing a murderous regime might have blemishes should be blindingly obvious but how far can that be taken? For example, the German opposition to Hitler contained posthumous candidates for secular sainthood (Sophie Scholl) as well as (to the utter shame of at least part of the opposition) someone like SS Einsatzgruppen B leader Arthur Nebe, a mass murderer on a truly epic scale.
That the regime be brought down and ended decisively was compelling without doubt (and, btw Germany did have the middle class, educated elite and civic organizations that some observers see as what will lead Burma out of the morass and tame the junta if given “more” time) and in this case it took violence, a lot of it, although granted the internal opposition’s part was minuscule. Mass violence is certainly not always the answer (e.g. South Africa, though one should not forget the ANC was armed and active) and should not be resorted to carelessly or even with desire, but there are situations, rare one hopes, where one has nothing else left and moral suasion, sanctions, demarches, or even magic lanterns have failed to do the trick. In Burma, there are some opposition figures that are venal and more concerned with personal interest. No question. If this injects a small note of realism, fine, but should it be used to hint at a moral equivalence between the two? Such distinctions might be lost upon, for example, frightened IDPs huddled in the forests or someone in Insein jail doing a decade’s long sentence for the heinous crime of comedy.
The posture of Burma’s remaining armed minority groups is largely defensive and, in the case of the Karen, they have made several attempts at negotiating either a peaceful resolution or a ceasefire in situ. The posture of Burma’s political opposition (minorities, 88, NLD, and others) is certainly far, far , far more principled than that of the junta.
The junta seeks at the very best a fa├зade to ensure that the well-compensated men in olive-green dictate politics from on high. If the Naypyitaw regime leaders could suddenly experience an epiphany; or if the complete removal of sanctions (political and economic) would allow the generals to herald a new dawn rather than simply diversify their armaments purchases (highly doubtful IMO), or if the SPDC could simply one day fall down in a heap like a brain-addled boxer in the ring and fail to get up, well that would be fine. Very sadly, since it has never produced a “De Klerk” to hand over the baton to the opposition’s “Mandela”, the SPDC may well have to be shoved aside by a massed citizenry that finally succeeds (maybe with help from the regime’s regional supporters who calculate the odds and stop supporting it) despite a potentially severe cost or, more likely, be brought down from within by Burmese, blemishes aside, who in the end act, whether knowingly or not, in their country’s interest and in its possible future.
I ‘ll try to get hold of Thak’ latest book . I have read his 1974 thesis on Sarit Thanarat, and also Pasuk and Sungsidh’s ‘Democracy and Corruption in Thailand’. Yes, it’s a great analysis of the culture and history of corruption in Thailand. Our library also hosts a number of other works by Pasuk (co-authored with Baker) e.g ‘A History of Thailand”, “Thaksin : the business of politics in Thailand “, “Thailand’s crisis ” etc.
Thank you for the link to the review of Thak’s book. I’ll check it out!
jud, thanks for the input.
Daniel, I’d accept your offer, but most likely would not fit the criteria for sharing your mosquito net. you would perhaps be more disappointed than i am.
Freebird, no offence taken, my feelings seldom get involved during discussion or debate. However, I have been known to raise my voice a bit…A LOT, actually!
and lastly, does anyone know where I can get info on animism in hard copy?
Nick, keep fighting the good fight.
My apologies to all for speaking out of turn.
Freebird 170, I am of the belief that if the junta wanted them all dead, they could have accomplished that long ago. Instead, they choose to play cat-and-mouse with them. The Karen are being used for target practice, so to speak. Many of them would be better put to use as the middle class that Nick speaks of. I may never be able to understand what my ancestors did what they did to the natives of the American continent, nor why their decendents smuggled African slaves back to their native land. Other ancestors were exiled from France for being too rebelious.
I am not trying to convince anyone that they are doing wrong, just that some of need to listen as loudly as we talk. You seem to me to be looking for someone to oppose you before you fully comprehend their position. If you want argument, find someone else to argue with. I’m too busy trying to keep peace in my own home.
Another but short interesting book I bought a while back, after reading it at Tilleke & Gibbins where I used to work, is Corruption and Democracy in Thailand by Pasuk Phongpaichit and Sungsidh Piriyarangsan. Pg. 135 of the book has a small table describing the six levels of good will to corruption as practiced here in Thailand. Gift of good will, for example, being sin nam jai, and others on through to bribery, extortion and finally corruption. Strange how they work their way up to a transliterated finale!
I have his book, The Politics of Despotic Paternalism, and it’s a good historical read especially on the Sarit regime and how the military is such an intrinsic part of Thai culture.
Marty, It would be great if political leaders with that profile could emerge within the red shirt/PT framework or elsewhere. I fear they would be seen as too threatening to the PT but perhaps they could use the red shirt momentum. There is a long tradition of suppressing any type of social reform movement in Thailand. Even environmentalists and local activists are seen as a threat to the status quo and regularly murdered or otherwise dealt with. I see Thaksin and as having taken up the responsibility for this suppression when he was in power with enthusiasm no different from the military and other elitist elements. Look at his record in the South for an idea of his approach to disadvantaged minorities.
Another arrest on lese majeste in the last couple of days – see Bangkok Pundit for excellent details and links. The Democrats are following through on their promises on lese majeste and the military is also at work. Expect further cases.
Foreigner are as ready to leave Harry to his fate as the are to minimalize and decide unimportant the fate of the hill tribe at the hands of the Thais. When one out of two foreigners are in jail in Thailand over similar bs it won’t be so funny.
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Lèse majesté and Harry Nicolaides
Evil people make money by using others and that is what Harry did, can he not make up his own characters? Does he have to voice underground communist voices in the modern world?
Soom Harry will have many new friends joining him, dont worry.
Thoughts on the by-elections
Three messages, I think, from the by-elections (and not commenting on the implications): (1) the split in TRT/PPP/PT and their inability to muster a reasonable election team shows that, finally, the post-coup strategy of dismantling the “Thaksin regine” is yielding some results; (2) the political clock has been turned back at least to the late 1990s and local power brokers are most significant again; and (3) the electorate seems tired of the ongoing standoff and want to move beyond it. Giving the Dems some time and then a new election might be a reasonable strategy as the economy tanks.
The King Never Smiles?
Thak’s recently reissued book has little that is different from the earlier version (from Thai Khadi). A few neat pictures and a couple of vaguely related essays, but the substance of the book is still in his thesis material.
This thread is about Handley’s book. It will continue to be the classic study of this reign. All of the other works mentioned above are good, solid and so on but Handley’s work is an eye-popper because he is a journalist who did what no acknowledged scholar of Thailand had done previously (despite claims by others such as Reynolds on another NM thread about the 10th ICTS).
Thoughts on the by-elections
machinations by the senior military and the rich families through their agents the PAD was and is a tragedy, not just a nonsense…
a continuation of 75 years of democracy cut short at every turn
anyway, thanks for the observations…
I keep saying that if the so-called elites were smart they would learn that they can live in a democratic society,
they would lose a lot of the comfort and ego satisfying they get now from treading on the (majority) buffaloes and grass roots as they stroll around their country but they could learn to compete and live with their fellow citizens, not to forget the refugees, hill tribes and other non-persons
its seems to be like talking to the israelis about living with the palestinians… they dont know how to listen
Volunteering to fight in Burma
“Charles F. “:
Yes, my sarcasm was mainly directed at one individual here, but also at sentiments that have been seen several times in this discussion.
I do understand your point about the moral, yet i do not completely agree. Humanitarian aid workers do boost the moral as well. Neither do i disrespect the people who have fought alongside the Karen, a friend was one of the guys from that Belgian-French contingent.
But i do believe that the foreign fighters do more harm than good by their mere presence at the borders. Negotiations happen all the time with the Junta, and have to happen. The existence of foreign fighters are a bit of a problem there.
“The nature of the enemy”. Sorry, but they are consisting of people, conscripted soldiers, career soldiers, civil servants, followers, etc. – they are humans.
During one assignment in Burma i had to have an MI escort, and of course spent much time with them while working. Over the days, we got to talk more and more, at the end we even got drunk together. And that “enemy” was simply a couple of humans caught in a terrible mess, like every Burmese is.
I don’t know how else to describe this, but that episode made me think a lot about many of my views on Burma.
Anyhow, no, i haven’t read those books, but as a German aristocrat from eastern descent – i grew up with those tales of rape, pillage and murder, many not to dissimilar of what ethnic minorities have had to endure for far too long. I have many relatives who have lost everything when they were ethnically cleansed out of their homes.
But there is a time when people have to move ahead, and let the past be past.
Blood rather than ballots
[…] A few months ago, in the wake of the October 7 violence, we argued that the PAD had chosen “blood rather than ballots” in their campaign to overthrow the elected government. In defence of an electoral solution, […]
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Mary and Nick Nostitz
Mary,
From reading your posts it appears to me that you know little or nothing about the Karens and their struggle. Nor do you seem to want to. That’s just my take on it.
I would suggest that you obtain a copy of “Revolution as Development: The Karen Self-Determination Struggle Against Ethnocracy (1949-2000) ” by Jack Fong. You can read it online at Google, or purchase a copy.
Nick Nostitz,
I really, really hope that your sentence, “But dreams of armed uprisings with rag tag armies of foreign volunteer fighters – please stop dreaming.” isn’t a reference to the moronic idea of a Karen Foreign Legion as one individual on here has suggested.
I just can’t seem to wrap my head around the idea of Karen guerrillas sitting around a campfire, singing, “Le boudin ” or marching through the jungle at 88 steps to the minute.
Additionally, calling the various Westerners who assist the KNLA – and other groups – from time to time, mercenaries is inaccurate. I don’t know of any of them who have been paid. Some of them are idealists, others adventurers. But none are mercenaries in the true sense of the word.
But that aside, I disagree with your premise that they add little to the Karen cause. I would submit to you that by their mere presence they boost the morale of the Karen soldiers. Just by the simple fact of putting boots on the ground they’re showing the Karens that they’re not forgotten; that people still care about them and consider their cause worthy enough to risk life itself.
I’m not referring to the various jackballs who show up from time to time, flitting into camps for a day or so, then scurrying back to Mae Sot to tell bullshit war stories over beer.
There are guys who have spent months and years – the best years of their lives in some cases – training, and fighting alongside the men of the KNLA. Several have died, many others have been terribly wounded. You do them a severe disservice to lump them in with men who fight only for money.
Lastly, seeing as you’re a German, have you ever read, “Other Losses” by James Bacque, or “A Terrible Revenge: The Ethnic Cleansing of the East European Germans, 1944-1950” by Alfred-Maurice de Zayas?
Burma’s 2008 Constitution in translation
Yash Ghai, the Kenyan constitutional jurist who has in the last few years served as UN Special Representative on human rights in Cambodia (to the dislike of Hun Sen), has recently released an assessment of the 2008 constitution, which is online at the Burma Library:
http://www.burmalibrary.org/docs6/2008_Myanmar_constitution–analysis_and_assessment-Yash_Ghai.pdf
Volunteering to fight in Burma
One should be wary of the past as analogy but the structural dynamics in Burma are not unique in any real historical sense. Different context can possibly provide clues to direction and duration of conflict but the best analysis is mostly after the fact. Still, when there have been murderous regimes, there have been oppositions, some more united than others with divisions occurring along a variety of fault lines: ideology, ethnicity, religion, social class, family or clan. That someone or some group opposing a murderous regime might have blemishes should be blindingly obvious but how far can that be taken? For example, the German opposition to Hitler contained posthumous candidates for secular sainthood (Sophie Scholl) as well as (to the utter shame of at least part of the opposition) someone like SS Einsatzgruppen B leader Arthur Nebe, a mass murderer on a truly epic scale.
That the regime be brought down and ended decisively was compelling without doubt (and, btw Germany did have the middle class, educated elite and civic organizations that some observers see as what will lead Burma out of the morass and tame the junta if given “more” time) and in this case it took violence, a lot of it, although granted the internal opposition’s part was minuscule. Mass violence is certainly not always the answer (e.g. South Africa, though one should not forget the ANC was armed and active) and should not be resorted to carelessly or even with desire, but there are situations, rare one hopes, where one has nothing else left and moral suasion, sanctions, demarches, or even magic lanterns have failed to do the trick. In Burma, there are some opposition figures that are venal and more concerned with personal interest. No question. If this injects a small note of realism, fine, but should it be used to hint at a moral equivalence between the two? Such distinctions might be lost upon, for example, frightened IDPs huddled in the forests or someone in Insein jail doing a decade’s long sentence for the heinous crime of comedy.
The posture of Burma’s remaining armed minority groups is largely defensive and, in the case of the Karen, they have made several attempts at negotiating either a peaceful resolution or a ceasefire in situ. The posture of Burma’s political opposition (minorities, 88, NLD, and others) is certainly far, far , far more principled than that of the junta.
The junta seeks at the very best a fa├зade to ensure that the well-compensated men in olive-green dictate politics from on high. If the Naypyitaw regime leaders could suddenly experience an epiphany; or if the complete removal of sanctions (political and economic) would allow the generals to herald a new dawn rather than simply diversify their armaments purchases (highly doubtful IMO), or if the SPDC could simply one day fall down in a heap like a brain-addled boxer in the ring and fail to get up, well that would be fine. Very sadly, since it has never produced a “De Klerk” to hand over the baton to the opposition’s “Mandela”, the SPDC may well have to be shoved aside by a massed citizenry that finally succeeds (maybe with help from the regime’s regional supporters who calculate the odds and stop supporting it) despite a potentially severe cost or, more likely, be brought down from within by Burmese, blemishes aside, who in the end act, whether knowingly or not, in their country’s interest and in its possible future.
The King Never Smiles?
I ‘ll try to get hold of Thak’ latest book . I have read his 1974 thesis on Sarit Thanarat, and also Pasuk and Sungsidh’s ‘Democracy and Corruption in Thailand’. Yes, it’s a great analysis of the culture and history of corruption in Thailand. Our library also hosts a number of other works by Pasuk (co-authored with Baker) e.g ‘A History of Thailand”, “Thaksin : the business of politics in Thailand “, “Thailand’s crisis ” etc.
Thank you for the link to the review of Thak’s book. I’ll check it out!
Volunteering to fight in Burma
jud, thanks for the input.
Daniel, I’d accept your offer, but most likely would not fit the criteria for sharing your mosquito net. you would perhaps be more disappointed than i am.
Freebird, no offence taken, my feelings seldom get involved during discussion or debate. However, I have been known to raise my voice a bit…A LOT, actually!
and lastly, does anyone know where I can get info on animism in hard copy?
Nick, keep fighting the good fight.
My apologies to all for speaking out of turn.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Freebird 170, I am of the belief that if the junta wanted them all dead, they could have accomplished that long ago. Instead, they choose to play cat-and-mouse with them. The Karen are being used for target practice, so to speak. Many of them would be better put to use as the middle class that Nick speaks of. I may never be able to understand what my ancestors did what they did to the natives of the American continent, nor why their decendents smuggled African slaves back to their native land. Other ancestors were exiled from France for being too rebelious.
I am not trying to convince anyone that they are doing wrong, just that some of need to listen as loudly as we talk. You seem to me to be looking for someone to oppose you before you fully comprehend their position. If you want argument, find someone else to argue with. I’m too busy trying to keep peace in my own home.
The King Never Smiles?
Another but short interesting book I bought a while back, after reading it at Tilleke & Gibbins where I used to work, is Corruption and Democracy in Thailand by Pasuk Phongpaichit and Sungsidh Piriyarangsan. Pg. 135 of the book has a small table describing the six levels of good will to corruption as practiced here in Thailand. Gift of good will, for example, being sin nam jai, and others on through to bribery, extortion and finally corruption. Strange how they work their way up to a transliterated finale!
The King Never Smiles?
I have his book, The Politics of Despotic Paternalism, and it’s a good historical read especially on the Sarit regime and how the military is such an intrinsic part of Thai culture.
Red shirts and civil disobedience
Marty, It would be great if political leaders with that profile could emerge within the red shirt/PT framework or elsewhere. I fear they would be seen as too threatening to the PT but perhaps they could use the red shirt momentum. There is a long tradition of suppressing any type of social reform movement in Thailand. Even environmentalists and local activists are seen as a threat to the status quo and regularly murdered or otherwise dealt with. I see Thaksin and as having taken up the responsibility for this suppression when he was in power with enthusiasm no different from the military and other elitist elements. Look at his record in the South for an idea of his approach to disadvantaged minorities.
Defending the taboo – the royal response
Another arrest on lese majeste in the last couple of days – see Bangkok Pundit for excellent details and links. The Democrats are following through on their promises on lese majeste and the military is also at work. Expect further cases.
The King Never Smiles?
For a recent review of Thak’s republished book, see: http://www.bangkokpost.com/230808_Outlook/23Aug2008_out49.php
The King Never Smiles?
Frank: Many thankssss! I have just checked out the link. Those references are all useful to me!:-)
The King Never Smiles?
Joy: Here is Thak’s reference, with correct spelling.
Frank
http://lrc.cornell.edu/asian/faculty/bios/chaloemtiarana
Update on Harry Nicolaides
Foreigner are as ready to leave Harry to his fate as the are to minimalize and decide unimportant the fate of the hill tribe at the hands of the Thais. When one out of two foreigners are in jail in Thailand over similar bs it won’t be so funny.