Portman, I feel that there is a window of opportunity for someone to step up and lead the Red/PTP. I don’t think it’s someone from within either of the two groups that we would readily recognize. They seem to have gone through most of the old guard. If they can entice some people with good values and a genuine desire to help the rural poor I think they can reform otherwise they will probably implode, which is what the Military, courts, PAD, Democrats etc have been trying to do for a couple of years. I really don’t think they need Thaksin or his money to be successful, what they need is a good platform, lots of organization and a cleaned up image.
“all judges must be elected by elected MPs!
criminal cases should be judged by juries not judges!
all special case laws like lese majeste and laws for political office-holders, etc should be scrapped!”
I am not sure in which advanced democracy judges are elected by MPs. That doesn’t sound like a great recipe for a judicial branch that is independent from the legislative and executive branches. Judges positions would just go to the highest bidder and they would jockey for position to judge cases involving people that pay the highest bribes. Where is Asia are there juries outside Hong Kong which struggles so hard to find educated jurors that I was once summoned for jury service there despite not even being a permanent resident? Juries in Thailand would be intimidated to the point of uselessness like they were by gangsters in the US in the 30s. As for scrapping lese majeste laws completely, this is also pie in the sky for a long time to come.
Your view is similar to the many overseas based farang academics and journalists who try to see Thailand purely through farang eyes
and with a strong grounding in what is PC in their countries in the early 21st century i.e. any government or individual who comes to power through the ballot box is good, no matter how crooked the election or how corrupt, self-serving and murderous the individuals. Hitler and Mussolini fitted this bill perfectly and had many admirers in the US in the 20s and 30s.
Good one David Brown- but I think we are fighting a losing battle against the dark forces that have now taken a strangle hold in every area of governance, business-mafia links and public life (thanks to media propaganda). Prem and his Democrat’s grand Orwellian schema for total social and political control has finally succeeded…Red Shirt leaders are now closely monitored and it is only a matter of time before they are imprisoned on some fake charge.
Goodbye Democracy
There are more numbers of innocent will suffer by this law.The human right in Thailand could not be work as long as the old implement system still running .
We urged you all to help spreading the comment amoung your people.
Mary, I do not think you understand the nature of our enemy. This conflict isn’t about some disagreement. What would happen if they Karen just decided to trust SPDC and hand over their arms? They’d all be dead tomorrow. You’re crazy to believe that SPDC has any desire for reconciliation. Even if the generals wanted to reconcile, do you know the kinds of animals they’re using to fight the KNLA? Even if the generals were just “misunderstood,” many of their soldiers would go on raping, killing, and looting sprees.
Mary, I know I’ve been a bit hard on you, and I don’t mean to discourage your good spirit. You’re clearly a very nice person. Some problems can’t be fixed by resolving everyone’s feelings. Sometimes group A doesn’t fight group B because of resentment or anger, they fight them because they want their land, resources, etc. You can’t mediate that, feelings aren’t involved.
I think you ARE adding to the problem with your naivete, discouraging other people who are willing to provide assistance by trying to convince them they are doing wrong, when you clearly don’t understand the nature of the subject. I don’t mean offense, and your compassion is a good thing, but it’s misguided in this case.
Furthermore, what Nick is talking about requires at least 20 more years of atrocity. People will die either way, but it’s better to die on your feet than on your knees.
No, i am not of the “appeasement crowd” – if it means to cease all resistance, and trust that the junta will suddenly turn nice. We know they won’t.
But i am not carrying these illusion about “organized efforts” ever being made. These are pipe dreams that have been around forever, and have never materialized.
And what happens with the disorganized efforts – we have at the last uprising well enough: people rise up, people get killed, news are made, the world is outraged for a few weeks, and has forgotten it by now.
One of the problems is that the minorities and the democracy movement have never been able to work with each other. If anyone here has ever been in Mannerplaw before it fell, and seen the chaos there, then no more explanation is needed.
There are also reasons why the DKBA split, and it is not just because the Junta is evil, but also because there was oppression of Buddhist (and Animist) Karen by the mostly Christian leadership.
Of course the Karen and other minorities have to fight and defend themselves. But at the same time negotiations have to happen. And it has to be accepted that these negotiations are tedious, and we will see only very slow improvement over the next 20 or so years.
That is a sad reality.
Foreign fighters are very little use in these days, but a huge difficulty for people actually involved in negotiations. Foreigners are far more important in humanitarian aid, at negotiation tables (and yes, foreign mercenaries that are employed by the junta are a disgrace).
Burma needs foreign investment though, a middle class has to be built. That is one of the future hopes for Burma.
And Burma needs tourists.
Things are not that black and white though. The minorities have made huge mistakes, their human rights record isn’t clean either (it of course pales compared to the junta’s miserable record), and also Aung San Suu Kyi is not exactly without blemish (last year a very good article was published by U Tant’s son Thant Myint-U about some of these issues).
Fact is, ugly as it sounds, that there will be no peace without working with the military in Burma. And that means some more than uncomfortable compromises.
If anybody here has a better suggestion, i am keen on hearing it. But dreams of armed uprisings with rag tag armies of foreign volunteer fighters – please stop dreaming.
Freebird, you’re right, I do not have a solution to the problem, nor the resources to resolve it. However, I am also not part of the problem. I also do not think Nick is of the appeasement crowd. He did not suggest that resistance should desist. He did however, mention something about slowly getting the junta to change. Those people have been fighting for so many years, it has become a habit with them. Change requires openmindedness, vision, willingness, effort, diplomacy, and in this case, some divine intervention would not hurt. If you have never seen even a minor argument resolved when the parties involved reached an understanding, agreed to disagree, and in some cases, become comrades, often because of their differences, you are missing something in life. The military has a habit of beating people down, only to build them up to become strong soldiers. Strength, however does not always mean muscles.
On the morning of the 14th of January 2009 the Thai military came to the village and forced the people to leave their homes accusing the villagers of supporting drug and people trafficking. Another challenge of the soldiers was to close the school. They threatened to destroy the school if the people would not obey. read all
Next battle against Karen rebels soon
by Daniel Pedersen
Friday, 16 January 2009 17:04
Maesot (Mizzima) – The Karen National Liberation Army’s Special Battalion 103 is being reinforced with troops of the KNLA’s Sixth Brigade’s 201st Battalion south of Thailand’s border town of Mae Sot.
The Special Battalion 103 in the past week has lost its base camp and for the past seven days has been moving constantly, deflecting their enemies – Burmese Army soldiers – with terrestrial mines and directional Claymore mines.
So apart from a few PADites being put into high places and the attention the Dems have given to lese majeste, what has happened to PAD? It is as if Sondhi and Chamlong have died. Not a peep from them? Am I missing a dialogue that is going on? Or was PAD just a puppet movement that served a purpose?
Nga…. I dont give you much in the way of a direct response about Thaksins bad side…
a. because I think most of Thaksin’s “bad side” is not true, its just wild
ravings from our mate Sondhi and other paid lackeys of the senior
military and the rich families…
all of the specific cases I have checked have yielded manipulation of the law to get a conviction of Thaksin and Samak, or no evidence found (despite heroic efforts by all those against them)
b. if Thailand stuck with a one-person one-vote democratic system all
these things would be sorted out by the system where the people get the chance to choose whether their representatives stay in power or not…
so whether Thaksin is corrupt or not is not really relevant in the bigger scheme of things
c. corrupt behaviour IS important when governments are not accountable to the people, like now when all the deals are being done by the Democrats … Prem, the senior military and rich families will decide whether the government will stay in power not the ordinary people of Thailand so as long as they are part of the deal everything will be OK
lets clean up the judicial system…
all judges must be elected by elected MPs!
criminal cases should be judged by juries not judges!
all special case laws like lese majeste and laws for political office-holders, etc should be scrapped!
especially and first, lets get rid of the lese majeste laws so we can speak freely!
With all due respect to Somsak and another poster here named “Republican” who has disappeared for a while now.
They both like to criticize when pomp and purity against opinion makers, editorials, and academics who do a good job of criticizing society. These acts of criticism, some with good reason, most without, are an attempt to ‘take the higher ground’ with their purity or ‘score points’ to increase their pompous and righteous selves.
I point to the fact that ‘Chang Noi’ runs an article on the ‘Nation’, a strictly anti-Thaksin paper wherein he makes constant criticisms of “all types” or authorianism, whether the authroianism is elected (a la Hitler) or an ‘invisible hand’. The ‘invisible hand’ referred is not in the Adam Smith terminology, but in the Kwam Pen Thai terminology.
In direct reference Acharn Somsak asks why Chang Noi does not criticize these background actors in the same breadth and width that he criticizes elected politicos. A quick reply in this sense will be because Chang Noi is not able to get the information he needs to make stinging criticisms as actions of such people are unavailable for public viewing. As such, he can only make cryptic references that showcase his disappointment or position against these highly invisible influences. Such criticism by Acharn Somsak is quite bizarre knowing as Somsak knows the realities of Thailand quite well.
I made the same criticism of Republican a few years ago regarding his position against Dr. Thongchai’s interview in the nation wherein the argument was made that the existence of an LM law hurts the people it is meant to protect more than it helps them as the law can be abused. Recent flurry of ridiculous LM charges somewhat prove him right, but that too led to a bizarre and counter-productive criticism of fellow academics.
You don’t typically find revolutionaries writing articles in newspapers. There are exceptions, but typically editorials and opinion makers are given such status because of their entrenchment in the current system that has elevated their positions to such status. Acharn Somsak and Republican are well aware of this, yet make nonsensical criticisms given their respective positions. As such, I challenge Acharn Somsak to ‘publish’ his articles and points of views to places beyond web sites. Perhaps lead a rally in Sanam Luang full-with whatever clothing color he prefers, as there is already red and yellow, and the reds too ‘hold reverence’ for the monarchy as convicted felon Thaksin Shinawatra put on his speech in the National Stadium last month, perhaps he can pick green or blue?
Mary, it’s clear that you don’t have a solution to the problem. Congratulations, you’re right about the world going to hell in a handbasket, but when hasn’t that been the case? All we have to do is understand their culture? Ok.
Nick is of the appeasement crowd. All we have to do is stop resisting the junta, and they will stop committing atrocities! Then instead of solidifying power for one strong man after another, they will slowly transition to democracy just like China didn’t! The junta doesn’t honestly believe we plan to invade, that is simply the excuse they give to their citizens. They do what they want to do. The “slow boat to Democracy” approach is also the surest way for ASSK to die in imprisonment.
Unfortunately appeasement won’t work. Again, there is no leverage from the nonviolent resistance. These people are too busy getting good jobs and going back to a normal life to worry about pushing for Burma. Even when they do, the junta is still protected from any international action.
I agree that foreign volunteers will not solve the problem. The problem will include violence, however. Violence will provide the leverage that the nonviolent resistance will not. Violence in the jungle is not good enough however. You need to hit the generals where it hurts: Their wallets, their families, their lives. When they have the choice of losing their lives/family members versus stepping down in exchange for amnesty, I think the choice will be easy, and there will be many who will defect even if the generals refuse to compromise. A well organized effort is required, not a rag-tag jungle war. It is the only way I see democracy being restored.
I disagree that foreign fighters are giving the Karen the illusion of Western intervention. I don’t think than any leaders in Karen state believe that. I also disagree that foreign soldiers will be necessary to maintain peace. I think if ASSK can be installed, stability is quite possible. The war is no longer about ethnicity, all sides agree to a federal style democracy.
If you had a well organized violent movement in areas that affect the junta to supplement the nonviolent movement, results could be seen quite quickly. Otherwise you will see at least 20 more years of atrocity and violence.
If press reports are to be believed, the Wa are now squarely in the sights of the SPDC. The UWSA has been given the ultimatum to disarm – or else. And the UWSA has replied by going into overdrive to restock on weapons and ammunition.
Negotiating with the junta is pointless. They break every promise as soon as it suits them. Point in case is the Manerplaw accords, which they violated before the ink even dried.
At the moment, the junta is using the DKBA to do their dirty work, waging genocidal war against the Christian Karens and the KNLA.
I wonder if the DKBA ever think about the future – what their fate will be after the SPDC has no more use for their services.
In regards to foreigners assisting the KNLA, this is an argument that will never end. While some, such as yourself, feel that they’re a detriment to peace in the area, there are others, such as myself, who believe that they are (or can be) a positive influence.
You’re not he first person to complain about foreigners assisting the KNLA. But I’ve noticed the people never want to discuss the French mercenaries guarding the pipelines, the Israeli mercenaries advising the Burmese secret police, or the many Chinese advisers assisting the SPDC.
The armed contingencies in Karen State, for one, are concerned with two things only: protecting the populace and their own survival.
Even the leaders fully accept the fact they cannot ‘win’ as things are now. Their main concern is ensuring the SPDC does not win.
For if the SPDC were to ‘win’ all of the ethnic minorities and their cultural ways would become trinkets of history, only dug up by scholars in decades and centuries to come.
Everyone involved is sick of the fighting.
The children of the original proponents of this stoic campaign of resisitance now have their own children and they don’t want to see their lives spent in struggle.
So for now they do their best to protect their women and children from maurauding armed units of their own supposed government.
These people have thousands of years of history, to suggest they don’t know how to survive, shelter and feed themselves far better than most people on the face of the planet is foolishness.
And they do it in a low-impact manner.
So while the ‘international community’ either sits around wringing its hands about what to do about the generals or plots how best to exploit Burma’s natural resources, these practical people just want people to stop shooting at them.
Resistance fighters are important for people’s morale, their hopes are built on people willing to lay down their lives for them knowing they can’t ‘win’.
Freebird has posted the most sensible thing I’ve seen on this forum to date, good on you.
You can buy The King Never Smiles on Amazon.com for about $26.
Personally, I like the fact that this kind of book was published.
Open discussion on the Thai monarchy is important and long overdue. It will be more useful to talk about how to improve the roles of the royal establishment, than to advocate for its outright abolition.
A national referendum should be organized to determine the fate of this establishment, which may have outlived its relevance to the Thai society.
Mary,
Just what is it that you’d like to see happen?
Are you confusing the people here with missionaries?
What is the knowledge and understanding that you think we are lacking in? I think that just about everyone on this forum is tuned in to events on the ground in Burma. That they don’t necessarily agree with you doesn’t make them less qualified to have an opinion on the subject.
A Gandhi style resistance to the junta won’t work in Burma, due to the simple fact that the generals don’t care what anyone thinks. They control the press in Burma, and couldn’t possibly care any less than they already do about the external press.
They have institutionalized rape and murder as governing tools. It may not be written into the constitution, but it’s a well documented fact of life there.
If anyone needs to educate themselves on the situation in Burma, I think it’s you.
Things are never that simple. It should be clear by now that the situation in Burma is not going to improve by armed minorities waging a war – because they cannot win. 60 years of fruitless warfare has proven that.
The best that can be achieved is a eventual collapse of the Burmese state, and that is not what will bring people freedom and development, but only further escalation.
The only minority sate that i have seen which a somewhat peaceful existence (for Burmese conditions) is Wa State, because they have made from a position of strength a peace agreement with the junta at the right time. That is a position the Karen once had, but have not anymore, and will not regain, regardless the dreams of some western soldiers and wannabees that i have seen posting here.
Listing the evils of the junta is rather fruitless, we know that already for a very long time, and nothing within the realm of the realistic has not been tried, including war, including western fighters getting involved, such as the Belgian-French contingent in the late 80’s early 90’s.
The only thing that is left now is finding ways how to slowly get the junta to change. The for Burmese conditions good collaboration with the UN and the NGOs recently is one step towards better cooperation.
Westerners getting involved in the fighting at the borders will not make one bit of difference in military terms (the Karen are by now, after 60 years of fighting, more than capable themselves to do their own fighting, when necessary), but it will be a serious hindrance in trying to get the paranoid junta to trust the west enough to be able to one day maybe see us as a force that will try to help Burma, and not just to invade the country.
Any western romantic wanna be freedom fighter with a gun at the border, and photos of that published, and news relayed to the Junta, will be counterproductive, and therefore does far more harm to Burma than good. And so do politically correct but mostly self serving boycott calls under which the poor have to suffer the most, as usual.
Burma is a nightmare, and many here in this discussion do contribute much that is stays that way. If one wants to engage in Burma, one should engage and assist in humanitarian aid, in the built of of a middle class, or in tedious negotiations.
But stop giving the people there the impression that the west would ever consider getting involved in a war there, that the west would ever spare the armies necessary to oust the junta, and to spend the years there necessary to dictate a peace.
That will not happen, not now, not ever.
Thanks, guys. Glad to see you are back on track. I have no disdain for soldiers, am a high-school dropout, and am fully aware of the atrocities going on, so your thinking is off target. It’s easy to translate the fishing thing in the literal sense. BTW, I am from the third rock from the sun in this solar system, and firmly believe that humankind will be the destroyer of the home provided for them… and is doing a pretty good job, so far. Enough about me, you have greater work to do.
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Red shirts and civil disobedience
Portman, I feel that there is a window of opportunity for someone to step up and lead the Red/PTP. I don’t think it’s someone from within either of the two groups that we would readily recognize. They seem to have gone through most of the old guard. If they can entice some people with good values and a genuine desire to help the rural poor I think they can reform otherwise they will probably implode, which is what the Military, courts, PAD, Democrats etc have been trying to do for a couple of years. I really don’t think they need Thaksin or his money to be successful, what they need is a good platform, lots of organization and a cleaned up image.
Red shirts and civil disobedience
“all judges must be elected by elected MPs!
criminal cases should be judged by juries not judges!
all special case laws like lese majeste and laws for political office-holders, etc should be scrapped!”
I am not sure in which advanced democracy judges are elected by MPs. That doesn’t sound like a great recipe for a judicial branch that is independent from the legislative and executive branches. Judges positions would just go to the highest bidder and they would jockey for position to judge cases involving people that pay the highest bribes. Where is Asia are there juries outside Hong Kong which struggles so hard to find educated jurors that I was once summoned for jury service there despite not even being a permanent resident? Juries in Thailand would be intimidated to the point of uselessness like they were by gangsters in the US in the 30s. As for scrapping lese majeste laws completely, this is also pie in the sky for a long time to come.
Your view is similar to the many overseas based farang academics and journalists who try to see Thailand purely through farang eyes
and with a strong grounding in what is PC in their countries in the early 21st century i.e. any government or individual who comes to power through the ballot box is good, no matter how crooked the election or how corrupt, self-serving and murderous the individuals. Hitler and Mussolini fitted this bill perfectly and had many admirers in the US in the 20s and 30s.
Red shirts and civil disobedience
Good one David Brown- but I think we are fighting a losing battle against the dark forces that have now taken a strangle hold in every area of governance, business-mafia links and public life (thanks to media propaganda). Prem and his Democrat’s grand Orwellian schema for total social and political control has finally succeeded…Red Shirt leaders are now closely monitored and it is only a matter of time before they are imprisoned on some fake charge.
Goodbye Democracy
Nicolaides: Australia should do more
There are more numbers of innocent will suffer by this law.The human right in Thailand could not be work as long as the old implement system still running .
We urged you all to help spreading the comment amoung your people.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Mary, I do not think you understand the nature of our enemy. This conflict isn’t about some disagreement. What would happen if they Karen just decided to trust SPDC and hand over their arms? They’d all be dead tomorrow. You’re crazy to believe that SPDC has any desire for reconciliation. Even if the generals wanted to reconcile, do you know the kinds of animals they’re using to fight the KNLA? Even if the generals were just “misunderstood,” many of their soldiers would go on raping, killing, and looting sprees.
Mary, I know I’ve been a bit hard on you, and I don’t mean to discourage your good spirit. You’re clearly a very nice person. Some problems can’t be fixed by resolving everyone’s feelings. Sometimes group A doesn’t fight group B because of resentment or anger, they fight them because they want their land, resources, etc. You can’t mediate that, feelings aren’t involved.
I think you ARE adding to the problem with your naivete, discouraging other people who are willing to provide assistance by trying to convince them they are doing wrong, when you clearly don’t understand the nature of the subject. I don’t mean offense, and your compassion is a good thing, but it’s misguided in this case.
Furthermore, what Nick is talking about requires at least 20 more years of atrocity. People will die either way, but it’s better to die on your feet than on your knees.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
“Charles F.”, “Freebird170”:
No, i am not of the “appeasement crowd” – if it means to cease all resistance, and trust that the junta will suddenly turn nice. We know they won’t.
But i am not carrying these illusion about “organized efforts” ever being made. These are pipe dreams that have been around forever, and have never materialized.
And what happens with the disorganized efforts – we have at the last uprising well enough: people rise up, people get killed, news are made, the world is outraged for a few weeks, and has forgotten it by now.
One of the problems is that the minorities and the democracy movement have never been able to work with each other. If anyone here has ever been in Mannerplaw before it fell, and seen the chaos there, then no more explanation is needed.
There are also reasons why the DKBA split, and it is not just because the Junta is evil, but also because there was oppression of Buddhist (and Animist) Karen by the mostly Christian leadership.
Of course the Karen and other minorities have to fight and defend themselves. But at the same time negotiations have to happen. And it has to be accepted that these negotiations are tedious, and we will see only very slow improvement over the next 20 or so years.
That is a sad reality.
Foreign fighters are very little use in these days, but a huge difficulty for people actually involved in negotiations. Foreigners are far more important in humanitarian aid, at negotiation tables (and yes, foreign mercenaries that are employed by the junta are a disgrace).
Burma needs foreign investment though, a middle class has to be built. That is one of the future hopes for Burma.
And Burma needs tourists.
Things are not that black and white though. The minorities have made huge mistakes, their human rights record isn’t clean either (it of course pales compared to the junta’s miserable record), and also Aung San Suu Kyi is not exactly without blemish (last year a very good article was published by U Tant’s son Thant Myint-U about some of these issues).
Fact is, ugly as it sounds, that there will be no peace without working with the military in Burma. And that means some more than uncomfortable compromises.
If anybody here has a better suggestion, i am keen on hearing it. But dreams of armed uprisings with rag tag armies of foreign volunteer fighters – please stop dreaming.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Freebird, you’re right, I do not have a solution to the problem, nor the resources to resolve it. However, I am also not part of the problem. I also do not think Nick is of the appeasement crowd. He did not suggest that resistance should desist. He did however, mention something about slowly getting the junta to change. Those people have been fighting for so many years, it has become a habit with them. Change requires openmindedness, vision, willingness, effort, diplomacy, and in this case, some divine intervention would not hurt. If you have never seen even a minor argument resolved when the parties involved reached an understanding, agreed to disagree, and in some cases, become comrades, often because of their differences, you are missing something in life. The military has a habit of beating people down, only to build them up to become strong soldiers. Strength, however does not always mean muscles.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
On the morning of the 14th of January 2009 the Thai military came to the village and forced the people to leave their homes accusing the villagers of supporting drug and people trafficking. Another challenge of the soldiers was to close the school. They threatened to destroy the school if the people would not obey. read all
http://democracyforburma.wordpress.com/2009/01/16/border-news-km44-school-parents-and-students-chased-away-help-wihout-frontiers/
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Next battle against Karen rebels soon
by Daniel Pedersen
Friday, 16 January 2009 17:04
Maesot (Mizzima) – The Karen National Liberation Army’s Special Battalion 103 is being reinforced with troops of the KNLA’s Sixth Brigade’s 201st Battalion south of Thailand’s border town of Mae Sot.
The Special Battalion 103 in the past week has lost its base camp and for the past seven days has been moving constantly, deflecting their enemies – Burmese Army soldiers – with terrestrial mines and directional Claymore mines.
The vicious battle for the region surrounding Thailand’s Phop Phra district has see-sawed back and forth across Thailand’s northern border with Burma since June 30 last year.
http://www.mizzima.com/news/inside-burma/1564-next-battle-against-karen-rebels-soon-.html
Defending PAD defender
So apart from a few PADites being put into high places and the attention the Dems have given to lese majeste, what has happened to PAD? It is as if Sondhi and Chamlong have died. Not a peep from them? Am I missing a dialogue that is going on? Or was PAD just a puppet movement that served a purpose?
Red shirts and civil disobedience
Nga…. I dont give you much in the way of a direct response about Thaksins bad side…
a. because I think most of Thaksin’s “bad side” is not true, its just wild
ravings from our mate Sondhi and other paid lackeys of the senior
military and the rich families…
all of the specific cases I have checked have yielded manipulation of the law to get a conviction of Thaksin and Samak, or no evidence found (despite heroic efforts by all those against them)
b. if Thailand stuck with a one-person one-vote democratic system all
these things would be sorted out by the system where the people get the chance to choose whether their representatives stay in power or not…
so whether Thaksin is corrupt or not is not really relevant in the bigger scheme of things
c. corrupt behaviour IS important when governments are not accountable to the people, like now when all the deals are being done by the Democrats … Prem, the senior military and rich families will decide whether the government will stay in power not the ordinary people of Thailand so as long as they are part of the deal everything will be OK
lets clean up the judicial system…
all judges must be elected by elected MPs!
criminal cases should be judged by juries not judges!
all special case laws like lese majeste and laws for political office-holders, etc should be scrapped!
especially and first, lets get rid of the lese majeste laws so we can speak freely!
Chang Noi on the knowledge industry
With all due respect to Somsak and another poster here named “Republican” who has disappeared for a while now.
They both like to criticize when pomp and purity against opinion makers, editorials, and academics who do a good job of criticizing society. These acts of criticism, some with good reason, most without, are an attempt to ‘take the higher ground’ with their purity or ‘score points’ to increase their pompous and righteous selves.
I point to the fact that ‘Chang Noi’ runs an article on the ‘Nation’, a strictly anti-Thaksin paper wherein he makes constant criticisms of “all types” or authorianism, whether the authroianism is elected (a la Hitler) or an ‘invisible hand’. The ‘invisible hand’ referred is not in the Adam Smith terminology, but in the Kwam Pen Thai terminology.
In direct reference Acharn Somsak asks why Chang Noi does not criticize these background actors in the same breadth and width that he criticizes elected politicos. A quick reply in this sense will be because Chang Noi is not able to get the information he needs to make stinging criticisms as actions of such people are unavailable for public viewing. As such, he can only make cryptic references that showcase his disappointment or position against these highly invisible influences. Such criticism by Acharn Somsak is quite bizarre knowing as Somsak knows the realities of Thailand quite well.
I made the same criticism of Republican a few years ago regarding his position against Dr. Thongchai’s interview in the nation wherein the argument was made that the existence of an LM law hurts the people it is meant to protect more than it helps them as the law can be abused. Recent flurry of ridiculous LM charges somewhat prove him right, but that too led to a bizarre and counter-productive criticism of fellow academics.
You don’t typically find revolutionaries writing articles in newspapers. There are exceptions, but typically editorials and opinion makers are given such status because of their entrenchment in the current system that has elevated their positions to such status. Acharn Somsak and Republican are well aware of this, yet make nonsensical criticisms given their respective positions. As such, I challenge Acharn Somsak to ‘publish’ his articles and points of views to places beyond web sites. Perhaps lead a rally in Sanam Luang full-with whatever clothing color he prefers, as there is already red and yellow, and the reds too ‘hold reverence’ for the monarchy as convicted felon Thaksin Shinawatra put on his speech in the National Stadium last month, perhaps he can pick green or blue?
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Mary, it’s clear that you don’t have a solution to the problem. Congratulations, you’re right about the world going to hell in a handbasket, but when hasn’t that been the case? All we have to do is understand their culture? Ok.
Nick is of the appeasement crowd. All we have to do is stop resisting the junta, and they will stop committing atrocities! Then instead of solidifying power for one strong man after another, they will slowly transition to democracy just like China didn’t! The junta doesn’t honestly believe we plan to invade, that is simply the excuse they give to their citizens. They do what they want to do. The “slow boat to Democracy” approach is also the surest way for ASSK to die in imprisonment.
Unfortunately appeasement won’t work. Again, there is no leverage from the nonviolent resistance. These people are too busy getting good jobs and going back to a normal life to worry about pushing for Burma. Even when they do, the junta is still protected from any international action.
I agree that foreign volunteers will not solve the problem. The problem will include violence, however. Violence will provide the leverage that the nonviolent resistance will not. Violence in the jungle is not good enough however. You need to hit the generals where it hurts: Their wallets, their families, their lives. When they have the choice of losing their lives/family members versus stepping down in exchange for amnesty, I think the choice will be easy, and there will be many who will defect even if the generals refuse to compromise. A well organized effort is required, not a rag-tag jungle war. It is the only way I see democracy being restored.
I disagree that foreign fighters are giving the Karen the illusion of Western intervention. I don’t think than any leaders in Karen state believe that. I also disagree that foreign soldiers will be necessary to maintain peace. I think if ASSK can be installed, stability is quite possible. The war is no longer about ethnicity, all sides agree to a federal style democracy.
If you had a well organized violent movement in areas that affect the junta to supplement the nonviolent movement, results could be seen quite quickly. Otherwise you will see at least 20 more years of atrocity and violence.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Nick Nostitz,
If press reports are to be believed, the Wa are now squarely in the sights of the SPDC. The UWSA has been given the ultimatum to disarm – or else. And the UWSA has replied by going into overdrive to restock on weapons and ammunition.
Negotiating with the junta is pointless. They break every promise as soon as it suits them. Point in case is the Manerplaw accords, which they violated before the ink even dried.
At the moment, the junta is using the DKBA to do their dirty work, waging genocidal war against the Christian Karens and the KNLA.
I wonder if the DKBA ever think about the future – what their fate will be after the SPDC has no more use for their services.
In regards to foreigners assisting the KNLA, this is an argument that will never end. While some, such as yourself, feel that they’re a detriment to peace in the area, there are others, such as myself, who believe that they are (or can be) a positive influence.
You’re not he first person to complain about foreigners assisting the KNLA. But I’ve noticed the people never want to discuss the French mercenaries guarding the pipelines, the Israeli mercenaries advising the Burmese secret police, or the many Chinese advisers assisting the SPDC.
Nicolaides: Australia should do more
Ring your local Thai consul and tell them you will not holiday in Thailand.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
The armed contingencies in Karen State, for one, are concerned with two things only: protecting the populace and their own survival.
Even the leaders fully accept the fact they cannot ‘win’ as things are now. Their main concern is ensuring the SPDC does not win.
For if the SPDC were to ‘win’ all of the ethnic minorities and their cultural ways would become trinkets of history, only dug up by scholars in decades and centuries to come.
Everyone involved is sick of the fighting.
The children of the original proponents of this stoic campaign of resisitance now have their own children and they don’t want to see their lives spent in struggle.
So for now they do their best to protect their women and children from maurauding armed units of their own supposed government.
These people have thousands of years of history, to suggest they don’t know how to survive, shelter and feed themselves far better than most people on the face of the planet is foolishness.
And they do it in a low-impact manner.
So while the ‘international community’ either sits around wringing its hands about what to do about the generals or plots how best to exploit Burma’s natural resources, these practical people just want people to stop shooting at them.
Resistance fighters are important for people’s morale, their hopes are built on people willing to lay down their lives for them knowing they can’t ‘win’.
Freebird has posted the most sensible thing I’ve seen on this forum to date, good on you.
The King Never Smiles?
You can buy The King Never Smiles on Amazon.com for about $26.
Personally, I like the fact that this kind of book was published.
Open discussion on the Thai monarchy is important and long overdue. It will be more useful to talk about how to improve the roles of the royal establishment, than to advocate for its outright abolition.
A national referendum should be organized to determine the fate of this establishment, which may have outlived its relevance to the Thai society.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Mary,
Just what is it that you’d like to see happen?
Are you confusing the people here with missionaries?
What is the knowledge and understanding that you think we are lacking in? I think that just about everyone on this forum is tuned in to events on the ground in Burma. That they don’t necessarily agree with you doesn’t make them less qualified to have an opinion on the subject.
A Gandhi style resistance to the junta won’t work in Burma, due to the simple fact that the generals don’t care what anyone thinks. They control the press in Burma, and couldn’t possibly care any less than they already do about the external press.
They have institutionalized rape and murder as governing tools. It may not be written into the constitution, but it’s a well documented fact of life there.
If anyone needs to educate themselves on the situation in Burma, I think it’s you.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Things are never that simple. It should be clear by now that the situation in Burma is not going to improve by armed minorities waging a war – because they cannot win. 60 years of fruitless warfare has proven that.
The best that can be achieved is a eventual collapse of the Burmese state, and that is not what will bring people freedom and development, but only further escalation.
The only minority sate that i have seen which a somewhat peaceful existence (for Burmese conditions) is Wa State, because they have made from a position of strength a peace agreement with the junta at the right time. That is a position the Karen once had, but have not anymore, and will not regain, regardless the dreams of some western soldiers and wannabees that i have seen posting here.
Listing the evils of the junta is rather fruitless, we know that already for a very long time, and nothing within the realm of the realistic has not been tried, including war, including western fighters getting involved, such as the Belgian-French contingent in the late 80’s early 90’s.
The only thing that is left now is finding ways how to slowly get the junta to change. The for Burmese conditions good collaboration with the UN and the NGOs recently is one step towards better cooperation.
Westerners getting involved in the fighting at the borders will not make one bit of difference in military terms (the Karen are by now, after 60 years of fighting, more than capable themselves to do their own fighting, when necessary), but it will be a serious hindrance in trying to get the paranoid junta to trust the west enough to be able to one day maybe see us as a force that will try to help Burma, and not just to invade the country.
Any western romantic wanna be freedom fighter with a gun at the border, and photos of that published, and news relayed to the Junta, will be counterproductive, and therefore does far more harm to Burma than good. And so do politically correct but mostly self serving boycott calls under which the poor have to suffer the most, as usual.
Burma is a nightmare, and many here in this discussion do contribute much that is stays that way. If one wants to engage in Burma, one should engage and assist in humanitarian aid, in the built of of a middle class, or in tedious negotiations.
But stop giving the people there the impression that the west would ever consider getting involved in a war there, that the west would ever spare the armies necessary to oust the junta, and to spend the years there necessary to dictate a peace.
That will not happen, not now, not ever.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Thanks, guys. Glad to see you are back on track. I have no disdain for soldiers, am a high-school dropout, and am fully aware of the atrocities going on, so your thinking is off target. It’s easy to translate the fishing thing in the literal sense. BTW, I am from the third rock from the sun in this solar system, and firmly believe that humankind will be the destroyer of the home provided for them… and is doing a pretty good job, so far. Enough about me, you have greater work to do.