I stumble onto this webpage through google. I am surprised at the interest and various comments on the Thai situation and song, as well as the various attempts at their translations. First off, let me commend the comments herein, particularly the translations of Thai words and phrases. They are generally quite good. Any correction, if I may, are minor in nature. I am commenting as a Thai and will focus mainly in the Thai meanings and their translations.
Andrew Walker’s writeup mentioned:
sucked into the earth (suup phaen din).
This should have been:
sucked into the earth (phaen din suub), which means the earth sucks (the person). The phrase ‘phaen din suub’ is well documented in Thai and has its root from Buddhism which is well explained by the author.
There were cases documenting the occurance during the time Buddha still walked on earth, that certain villains who committed great sins against Buddha were punished by being physically sucked into the earth which opened up. In Buddhism, a sin committed against a person carries unequal weights. A sin against a villain is lesser, as compared to that against a virtuous person. A sin against Buddha, who is the supreme virtuous person is so great. Tewatat attempted to assassinate Buddha, causing bleeding in Buddha. That great sin and others which he practised against the Buddha, caused Tewatat to be punished by the Law of Karma to be sucked into the earth, and upon death, his soul has been cast in hell for a long, long time (even now, and far into the future). Incidentally Buddha didn’t cause the death or the suction of the earth.
There was also a woman who took bribes from some jealous local religious leaders to discredit Buddha. She wore an apparatus to fake a pregnancy and accused Buddha in a big gathering that Buddha was the cause. That false accusation against Buddha too was a great sin. Some angels couldn’t bear the great accusation, caused the apparatus to fall off, exposing her lie. She too was punished by the Law of Karma and was sucked into the earth.
Nowadays we don’t hear of cases where a person is sucked into the earth for a great sin. Obviously we don’t have another Buddha walking the earth and don’t have sins of such a magnitude.
There is no usuage for “suup phaen din”, which means suck the land.
The phrase “nug phaen din” (р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ) is commonly used in Thai. Nug is simply weight, or heavy, as each person has a weight. But in “nug phaen din”, “nug” it is meant as “deadweight”. It implies a person is no good, and is a deadweight upon the land. Upon death, the land would be higher, not having to support such a deadweight. It is used as an insult.
The translation into English as “scum of the earth” is proper also. Just different usage in two different cultures for similar insults.
Lleij Samuel Schwartz’s translation for:
“р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕нр╕▓р╕ир╕▒р╕вр╣Вр╕Юр╕Шр╕┤р╣Мр╕Чр╕нр╕Зр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕▒р╕Щр╕вр╣М р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╣Гр╕Ир╕бр╕▒р╕Щр╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╣Ар╕Эр╣Йр╕▓р╕Др╕┤р╕Фр╕Чр╕│р╕ер╕▓р╕в
Living off the golden Bodhi tree and the land of the King ..”
“р╣Вр╕Юр╕Шр╕┤р╣Мр╕Чр╕нр╕З” is golden bodhi leave in this usuage. Bodhi leave is a large leave from bodhi tree. Bodhi tree is the tree under which Buddha attained enlightenment. Bodhi leaves from that specific bodhi tree still receives special reverance in most Buddhist countries, including Thailand. Some buddhists reported miracles from either that tree or its leave.
Bodhi leaves in this usuage is meant as (shade or) protection (by the King). This usuage is a carryover from the country of old, where a subject of the country was under the protection of the King for his security. Referring to the large bodhi leaf signifies the big protection as provided by the King.
р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕нр╕▓р╕ир╕▒р╕вр╣Вр╕Юр╕Шр╕┤р╣Мр╕Чр╕нр╕Зр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕▒р╕Щр╕вр╣М means “getting protection from the King and his land.”
On “р╕Др╕Щр╣Гр╕Фр╕лр╕ер╕Зр╕Кр╕бр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕нр╕╖р╣Ир╕Щ р╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕Вр╕▓р╕вр╕╖р╕Щр╕Вр╣Ир╕бр╣Ар╕лр╕З
Any person who is lost admiring other nations, while their own nation they allow to be oppressed”. It may be translated as:
Any person who is ignorantly admiring other nations, while oppressing his own nation (or his own people).
I think “oppressing his own people or his own nation” refers to communist rules which is known for oppressing its own people, or its own land.
“р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕кр╕┤р╕Щр╕Чр╕гр╕▒р╕Юр╕вр╣Мр╣Ар╕Ир╕╖р╕нр╕Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕Бр╣Зр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕лр╕▓р╕гр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕нр╕З р╕Чр╕╡р╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕нр╕╖р╣Ир╕Щр╣Ар╕Бр╕гр╕Зр╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╕Нр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕бр╕▒р╕Щ
Seizing assets so that they may kill their fellow Thais, but respecting other nations like their own relatives… ”
“р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕кр╕┤р╕Щр╕Чр╕гр╕▒р╕Юр╕вр╣Мр╣Ар╕Ир╕╖р╕нр╕Ир╕▓р╕Щ” instead of “Seizing assets”, should mean (the villain, or the communists who received financial support from external Communist countries then) receiving monetary or financial contribution…
“р╕Др╕Щр╣Гр╕Фр╕Вр╕▓р╕вр╕Хр╕Щр╕Вр╕▓р╕вр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤ р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╣Вр╕нр╕Бр╕▓р╕кр╕Кр╕╡р╣Йр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕ир╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕╣
Any person who sells themself and their nation, creating an opportunity to point the way for the enemy”.
“р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╣Вр╕нр╕Бр╕▓р╕кр╕Кр╕╡р╣Йр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕ир╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕╣” probably means point the way for the enemy, as opportunity arises.
“р╣Ар╕Бр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕лр╕Щр╕╕р╕Щр╕нр╕Др╕Хр╕┤ р╣Ар╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕ер╕▒р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╕нр╕▒р╕Щр╕Шр╕Юр╕▓р╕е р╣Бр╕Юр╕гр╣Ир╕Щр╕│р╕бр╕▒р╕Щр╕бр╕▓р╕Ър╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕гр╕▓
Supporting bias and immorality, they come to spread their filth in our villages.” Maybe translated as:
Supporting bias and thug cult, spread them in our country.
“р╕Ър╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕З” are from two words. р╕Ър╣Йр╕▓р╕Щ means homes (or houses),
р╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕З means city. In this usuage, it infers all the house and all the cities, to mean the country.
Thanks for following this up. I don’t have anything but I will chase this up and see if I can find a translation. If I get a copy I will be sure to post it online.
Nich and all,
Has there ever been a translation (official or otherwise) made available of the final constitution put to the referendum in 2008?
Thanks,
Ken
Bee Low Growen – I do not think it is “ranting” or “point scoring” to point out the fact that Kristof has provided evidence for the existence of the basement dungeons – evidence which you have “repetitively” chosen to ignore.
Repetitive ranting and unimaginative point-scoring will not be entertained, Alvin. We are discussing the credibility of a celebrity reporter for America’s newspaper of record on an important Cambodian issue.
I like Nick’s pictures but the text of this report is so adoring of the red shirts that it is hard to credit him as an objective reporter.
Susie Wong #2. “We need to know that Mr.Kraisak Chunhawan is grandson of Pin Chunhawan, who accompanied Plaek Phibunsongkram (Chief of the Axis Forces) in an attempt to arrest Dr.Pridi Banomyong”. How relevant is this? Kraisak is nothing like his grandfather or even his father. Why not say that we need to know that Kraisak fought for justice for the innocent people who were murdered in Thaksin’s War Against Drugs? Are you so sure that Thaksin’s granfather was whiter than white before taking it back to the third generation. Some allege he was an opium dealer as well as a tax farmer.
Markus: not very credible sources cited through the likes of “sourcewatch” which regurgitates the same spin we have heard incessantly over the past few years and which relies mainly on English language published materials that have been shown to be biased. If you want to get to the truth you will need to access some of the Thai language web sites (start with Thai E-News and the many links) where Thai journalists, many who have been working at the front line, can talk freely in cyberspace without editorial influence.
Is Thailand going the way of Korea? Will there be a North Siam and a South Siam? I have nightmares about the possibility. As for the light at the end of the tunnel, yellow or red is immaterial. So long as it is not the bright WHITE LIGHT welcoming you to the next life!!
Yes, Susie Wong, the turbulence created by the yellow shirts and the red shirts will shortly progress into armed conflict. Then the Army has the excuse it needs to step in and protect their yellow shirt partners. Is this the type of progress you want? A man once said Democracy has many faults, but it’s the best thing we’ve got at this time. As I understand it, Democracy should be carried out by everyone having their say. By vote through a representative or directly into a community gathering. With the technical progress in this century, I can envision a person having the right to vote from whereever they are. electronically into a central computer. That is my idea of True Democracy. I will never see it in my lifetime, but I can dream. The democracy, if you can call it that, in this country has reverted back to almost dictatorship. I will cry a lot when I see the young bodies in the street.
1. It’s easy for PAD supporters, or any one else for that matter, to dismiss pro-Thaksin commentary as a lobbyist’s spin. Look at BGR Holdings Client list:
3. There is one thing you said that I can’t argue with, “are these rich people the roots of all evils or what?”
Not just Modthai but quite a few posts on this site appear unable to acknowledge the faults of the side they somewhat blindly follow.
I’ll not post back to this site again. Although I would like to leave you with the following quote:
“There is one safeguard known generally to the wise, which is an advantage and security to all, but especially to democracies as against despots. What is it? Distrust.”
Demosthenes
The 2008 SPDC May constitution are not based from 1947/74 principle and and 45 SELECTED SPDC’s MEN drafted.
Now, Public,NLD, all politicians and Citizens are requesting to discuss
(compromise) with 1990 election candidates and citizen.
The con-artist men are approaching to SPDC and taking the rights of
permits, land and business with military.
SPDC also using their power to grant the rights of business with state owned money and resources.
All are watching since 1988 and nothing out come results from 1988 to 2008 for country’s beneficial or devlopment.
Now, military is breaking their several promise since 1988 to hand over the power after 1990 election and defying all opposition groups and arrested all young students and politicians.
We understand the way of Burma is very simple and could be changed within one year if SPDC have sympthy or resepect the law.
Actually, SPDC expected the CIVIL WAR and they need to destroy
all Political Group by ARM after their dream completed of 2010 election.
So, the public and SPDC must solve their created problem with confrontation status and must solve by NLD and SPDC openly.
We are also not afraid for fighting to SPDC this time and must show our abilities from each channel and each location to fight back to
1. Than Shwe’s Group or brutual men
2. Police Squad
3. USDA or Kyant Phut with murphy
4. SPDC’s families or their business or properties
5. We have decided to show our strength very clearly in Burma.
Tarrin & Mod Thai: I do not know enough about the issues to comment, however would not be surprised if many prominent Thai establishment figures had engaged in corruption.
If there is evidence, by all means press for investigation & prosecution of Surayud, Jaruvan and anyone else reasonably suspected of corruption – I commend your efforts.
However, that is not why I choose to devote time to this hobby of commenting on these blogs.
Whether enough evidence is available to prosecute Thaksin, and whether or not he is not the only suspect character in Thai politics is rather besides the point of my arguments – I focus my attention on Thaksin because he is the person that commands significant electoral support, and also has many ardent supporters on these blogs.
Irrespective of whether he can be convicted on any more substantial charges, it is my opinion that there is enough evidence that (an unchanged) Thaksin is not suitable to be PM.
His authoritarian, heavy handed tactics, manipulation and intimidation, tax havens for tax avoidance (if not strictly evasion), mixing government and family business, his various comments when facing valid criticisms, and worse of all the conduct of the drug war and general lack of remorse are the reasons why I consider he is not suitable PM material – he had his time and has done some good along with the bad, but it is my opinion that his days of leading the country should be consigned to history.
If Abhisit, or any of his fellow politicians do similar things, and are ardently supported by the majority of posters here, then rest assured, I will switch the focus of my forays onto this and other Thai blogs – As far as I can see, that time has not yet come.
Democracy lovers, including pro-Thaksinites here, might think that I am just a PAD stooge, but in reality I have never had much time for Sondhi
Hopefully long term readers can recognise that my thoughts have also evolved slightly over the last 2 years, even though I maintain my anti-Thaksin slant, and the hope that the electoral masses will eventually become more discerning.
btw, I think you are selling Dr Connors short by claiming he is merely restating Sondhi’s accusations.
“To prove that a person ordered a three month ‘war on drugs’ and is therefore ultimately reponsible for the deaths of over two thousand people”
If the coup cannot find Thaksin guilty who else can???
qoute from wikipedia:; “After the coup, the military investigated the campaign but found that Thaksin had not been directly involved with any of these killings.”
We can’t also prove that the killings weren’t druglord bosses doing, you know..killed the smalltime dealers so themselved can’t be linked.
Nga
I’ve read many of your comment and you seems to be concentrating on Thaksin corruption for the most part,
(a) I just want to ask you couple questions, why dont you direct your accusation of corruption to other people like Sorayud (the junta PM), who has a house right by the national wild life conservative park (which some estimate to worth about 50mil) or that he actaully own a train that worth about 14 millions baht, which is almost 10 times the salary he got from being a retired general. Worst even, the general of secretary audit, khun ying Jaruwan who suppose to be the one who check the government for any unusual transaction, own a house worth more than 80 million baht with a payroll of about 500,000 a year.
(b)Secound point, you’ve been accusing Thaksin for corruption, can you gives us even one charge (and not accusation) that point out that Thaksin is actually made any wrong doing.
Oh and btw I’ve read your article, the point that the author made regarding Thaksin abuse of power actually came from those accused by Sondhi so your article actually defeat the porpose to prove your point.
Jim, Thanks for clearling the land case up for other readers. You are right, these are dark times indeed. (not just for Thailand but for all over the world, are these rich people the roots of all evils or what?) (Did you know that a PAD comment poser at Prachatai.com speculated that you are a lobbyist hired by Thaksin, well they seem to think BBC CNN etc. are hired by Thaksin as well, which is quite hilarious to how see how PAD think)
David B. You have said my thoughts exactly, thanks for that.
I wonder if saying “get rid of the lese majeste laws” is against the lese majeste laws?.
Nga, I hope you have judged Thaksin by the truths and evidents, not just your own prejudictions and other’s speculations.
“How can you condemn a person if his faults have not been clearly proven?”
To prove that a person ordered a three month ‘war on drugs’ and is therefore ultimately reponsible for the deaths of over two thousand people would be difficult.
If the person believes the judiciary in his own country are unfairly biased, that person could receive a fair trial abroad.
However, this would require such a country to ratify the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court and for that person to be tried in the Netherlands.
This course of action would however, put such a country’s military at risk of prosecution for its conduct in restive provinces, and is therefore extremely unlikely.
Did you read the article in the link I gave above?
Not a Sondhi rant, but it does refer to the not so shiny side of Thaksin, and where many think he was taking democracy.
(a) “all of the specific cases I have checked have yielded manipulation of the law”
Thaksin wouldn’t do that would he 🙂
(b) In a perfect world, such a miracle might happen – until you (educated) guys are prepared to see both sides of Thaksin, I don’t hold out much hope that one form of manipulation was not (will not) merely being (be) replaced with another.
(c) Possibly we agree on this point, as I’m all for exposing corruption, across the board, irrespective of who perpetrates it
I dont give you much in the way of a direct response about Thaksins bad side…
I suppose:
a. because I think most of his “bad side” is not true, its just wild ravings from our mate Sondhi and other paid lackeys of the sewnior military and the rich families… all of the specific cases I have checked have yielded manipulation of the law, or no evidence found (despite heroic efforts by all those against him)
b. if Thailand stuck with a one-person one-vote democratic system all these things would be sorted out by the system where the people get the chance to choose whether their representatives stay in power or not… so whether he is corrupt or not is not relevant in the bigger scheme of things
c. corrupt behaviour is important when governments are not accountable to the people, like now when all the deals are being done… who cares because the military and rich families will decide whether the government will stay in power not the ordinary people of Thailand
by the way, my posts are held waiting on moderation I suppose because NM is worried they will get blocked in Thailand….
lets get rid of the lese majeste laws so we can speak freely!
Like most of the posts here, I agree that child prostitution is a crime that should see perpetrators seriously pursued and hit with the full force of the law.
At the same time, and I know that this is tricky and will draw criticism, I think Kristof’s reporting does need to be scrutinised. He is a celebrity reporter and seems to take up some topics that encourage moral outrage (and many of them should – child prostitution, forced sex work, outrages in Darfur) but tends to individualise the problems – this approach grabs at heartstrings – without necessarily revealing much more than saying that these outrages occur.
Some might argue that it is fair enough to keep saying it and keep it on various agendas. However, there are other outrages (for me) that he treats rather differently. Recall his “Two cheers for sweatshops” article with WuDunn a few years ago. In some research works, sweatshops and prostitution seem to have interesting relationships, but Kristof essentially praised sweatshops.
And then there are some of the issues that others have raised here – the buying out a woman and having her run back to the brothel, for example. It is interesting to note that this story was not only in the NYT but on CNN and was one of those reporter-as-sleuth things which didn’t really dig into the story. After a number of articles and TV stories on sex work of various kinds mainly focused on Cambodia, wouldn’t you expect him to be getting beyond the sensational headline? Wouldn’t you want him to be showing some evidence of a growing understanding of the troubling issues that have been so divisive of feminists and NGOs working in the field? Wouldn’t you want him to look at the issues that bring together interesting political coalitions in, say, Washington? Should some questions be asked about why the Bush administration has funded so much trafficking work, much of it by fundamentalist Christian organisations, while not being interested and providing almost no funding for anti-AIDS work, related family planning initiatives and agencies that work directly with sex workers but do not toe the required trafficking and abstinence lines?
Some of this is shown in a rather good (IMHO) documentary – Trading Women – that was put together by David Feingold a couple of years ago. A very thought-provoking approach, which Feingold has also taken up in print.
And I guess another thing that would interest me about Kristof relates to his career as a public speaker, where he gets paid quite substantial amounts (I happened to have a minor part in an organising group for one of his campus talks a couple of years ago). I have no idea whether this money is put to good use in supporting the NGOs and others who assist him to do his reports in Cambodia and Darfur.
Bangkok Pundit had a bit from Matichon that I found very interesting about the political situation, it’s worth a read. It’s translated from the original Thai so it’s not as hard to get through.
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Scum of the earth
I stumble onto this webpage through google. I am surprised at the interest and various comments on the Thai situation and song, as well as the various attempts at their translations. First off, let me commend the comments herein, particularly the translations of Thai words and phrases. They are generally quite good. Any correction, if I may, are minor in nature. I am commenting as a Thai and will focus mainly in the Thai meanings and their translations.
Andrew Walker’s writeup mentioned:
sucked into the earth (suup phaen din).
This should have been:
sucked into the earth (phaen din suub), which means the earth sucks (the person). The phrase ‘phaen din suub’ is well documented in Thai and has its root from Buddhism which is well explained by the author.
There were cases documenting the occurance during the time Buddha still walked on earth, that certain villains who committed great sins against Buddha were punished by being physically sucked into the earth which opened up. In Buddhism, a sin committed against a person carries unequal weights. A sin against a villain is lesser, as compared to that against a virtuous person. A sin against Buddha, who is the supreme virtuous person is so great. Tewatat attempted to assassinate Buddha, causing bleeding in Buddha. That great sin and others which he practised against the Buddha, caused Tewatat to be punished by the Law of Karma to be sucked into the earth, and upon death, his soul has been cast in hell for a long, long time (even now, and far into the future). Incidentally Buddha didn’t cause the death or the suction of the earth.
There was also a woman who took bribes from some jealous local religious leaders to discredit Buddha. She wore an apparatus to fake a pregnancy and accused Buddha in a big gathering that Buddha was the cause. That false accusation against Buddha too was a great sin. Some angels couldn’t bear the great accusation, caused the apparatus to fall off, exposing her lie. She too was punished by the Law of Karma and was sucked into the earth.
Nowadays we don’t hear of cases where a person is sucked into the earth for a great sin. Obviously we don’t have another Buddha walking the earth and don’t have sins of such a magnitude.
There is no usuage for “suup phaen din”, which means suck the land.
The phrase “nug phaen din” (р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ) is commonly used in Thai. Nug is simply weight, or heavy, as each person has a weight. But in “nug phaen din”, “nug” it is meant as “deadweight”. It implies a person is no good, and is a deadweight upon the land. Upon death, the land would be higher, not having to support such a deadweight. It is used as an insult.
The translation into English as “scum of the earth” is proper also. Just different usage in two different cultures for similar insults.
Lleij Samuel Schwartz’s translation for:
“р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕нр╕▓р╕ир╕▒р╕вр╣Вр╕Юр╕Шр╕┤р╣Мр╕Чр╕нр╕Зр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕▒р╕Щр╕вр╣М р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╣Гр╕Ир╕бр╕▒р╕Щр╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╣Ар╕Эр╣Йр╕▓р╕Др╕┤р╕Фр╕Чр╕│р╕ер╕▓р╕в
Living off the golden Bodhi tree and the land of the King ..”
“р╣Вр╕Юр╕Шр╕┤р╣Мр╕Чр╕нр╕З” is golden bodhi leave in this usuage. Bodhi leave is a large leave from bodhi tree. Bodhi tree is the tree under which Buddha attained enlightenment. Bodhi leaves from that specific bodhi tree still receives special reverance in most Buddhist countries, including Thailand. Some buddhists reported miracles from either that tree or its leave.
Bodhi leaves in this usuage is meant as (shade or) protection (by the King). This usuage is a carryover from the country of old, where a subject of the country was under the protection of the King for his security. Referring to the large bodhi leaf signifies the big protection as provided by the King.
р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕нр╕▓р╕ир╕▒р╕вр╣Вр╕Юр╕Шр╕┤р╣Мр╕Чр╕нр╕Зр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕▒р╕Щр╕вр╣М means “getting protection from the King and his land.”
On “р╕Др╕Щр╣Гр╕Фр╕лр╕ер╕Зр╕Кр╕бр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕нр╕╖р╣Ир╕Щ р╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕Вр╕▓р╕вр╕╖р╕Щр╕Вр╣Ир╕бр╣Ар╕лр╕З
Any person who is lost admiring other nations, while their own nation they allow to be oppressed”. It may be translated as:
Any person who is ignorantly admiring other nations, while oppressing his own nation (or his own people).
I think “oppressing his own people or his own nation” refers to communist rules which is known for oppressing its own people, or its own land.
“р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕кр╕┤р╕Щр╕Чр╕гр╕▒р╕Юр╕вр╣Мр╣Ар╕Ир╕╖р╕нр╕Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕Бр╣Зр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕лр╕▓р╕гр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕нр╕З р╕Чр╕╡р╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕нр╕╖р╣Ир╕Щр╣Ар╕Бр╕гр╕Зр╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╕Нр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕бр╕▒р╕Щ
Seizing assets so that they may kill their fellow Thais, but respecting other nations like their own relatives… ”
“р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕кр╕┤р╕Щр╕Чр╕гр╕▒р╕Юр╕вр╣Мр╣Ар╕Ир╕╖р╕нр╕Ир╕▓р╕Щ” instead of “Seizing assets”, should mean (the villain, or the communists who received financial support from external Communist countries then) receiving monetary or financial contribution…
“р╕Др╕Щр╣Гр╕Фр╕Вр╕▓р╕вр╕Хр╕Щр╕Вр╕▓р╕вр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤ р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╣Вр╕нр╕Бр╕▓р╕кр╕Кр╕╡р╣Йр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕ир╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕╣
Any person who sells themself and their nation, creating an opportunity to point the way for the enemy”.
“р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╣Вр╕нр╕Бр╕▓р╕кр╕Кр╕╡р╣Йр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕ир╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕╣” probably means point the way for the enemy, as opportunity arises.
“р╣Ар╕Бр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕лр╕Щр╕╕р╕Щр╕нр╕Др╕Хр╕┤ р╣Ар╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕ер╕▒р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╕нр╕▒р╕Щр╕Шр╕Юр╕▓р╕е р╣Бр╕Юр╕гр╣Ир╕Щр╕│р╕бр╕▒р╕Щр╕бр╕▓р╕Ър╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕гр╕▓
Supporting bias and immorality, they come to spread their filth in our villages.” Maybe translated as:
Supporting bias and thug cult, spread them in our country.
“р╕Ър╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕З” are from two words. р╕Ър╣Йр╕▓р╕Щ means homes (or houses),
р╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕З means city. In this usuage, it infers all the house and all the cities, to mean the country.
Cheers
Burma’s draft 2008 constitution
Hi Ken,
Thanks for following this up. I don’t have anything but I will chase this up and see if I can find a translation. If I get a copy I will be sure to post it online.
Cheers,
Nich
Burma’s draft 2008 constitution
Nich and all,
Has there ever been a translation (official or otherwise) made available of the final constitution put to the referendum in 2008?
Thanks,
Ken
Torture
Bee Low Growen – I do not think it is “ranting” or “point scoring” to point out the fact that Kristof has provided evidence for the existence of the basement dungeons – evidence which you have “repetitively” chosen to ignore.
Torture
Repetitive ranting and unimaginative point-scoring will not be entertained, Alvin. We are discussing the credibility of a celebrity reporter for America’s newspaper of record on an important Cambodian issue.
Red shirts and civil disobedience
I like Nick’s pictures but the text of this report is so adoring of the red shirts that it is hard to credit him as an objective reporter.
Susie Wong #2. “We need to know that Mr.Kraisak Chunhawan is grandson of Pin Chunhawan, who accompanied Plaek Phibunsongkram (Chief of the Axis Forces) in an attempt to arrest Dr.Pridi Banomyong”. How relevant is this? Kraisak is nothing like his grandfather or even his father. Why not say that we need to know that Kraisak fought for justice for the innocent people who were murdered in Thaksin’s War Against Drugs? Are you so sure that Thaksin’s granfather was whiter than white before taking it back to the third generation. Some allege he was an opium dealer as well as a tax farmer.
The red army at the gates of parliament
Markus: not very credible sources cited through the likes of “sourcewatch” which regurgitates the same spin we have heard incessantly over the past few years and which relies mainly on English language published materials that have been shown to be biased. If you want to get to the truth you will need to access some of the Thai language web sites (start with Thai E-News and the many links) where Thai journalists, many who have been working at the front line, can talk freely in cyberspace without editorial influence.
Light at the end of the tunnel? Red or yellow?
Is Thailand going the way of Korea? Will there be a North Siam and a South Siam? I have nightmares about the possibility. As for the light at the end of the tunnel, yellow or red is immaterial. So long as it is not the bright WHITE LIGHT welcoming you to the next life!!
Red shirts and civil disobedience
Yes, Susie Wong, the turbulence created by the yellow shirts and the red shirts will shortly progress into armed conflict. Then the Army has the excuse it needs to step in and protect their yellow shirt partners. Is this the type of progress you want? A man once said Democracy has many faults, but it’s the best thing we’ve got at this time. As I understand it, Democracy should be carried out by everyone having their say. By vote through a representative or directly into a community gathering. With the technical progress in this century, I can envision a person having the right to vote from whereever they are. electronically into a central computer. That is my idea of True Democracy. I will never see it in my lifetime, but I can dream. The democracy, if you can call it that, in this country has reverted back to almost dictatorship. I will cry a lot when I see the young bodies in the street.
The red army at the gates of parliament
Thanks ModThai
1. It’s easy for PAD supporters, or any one else for that matter, to dismiss pro-Thaksin commentary as a lobbyist’s spin. Look at BGR Holdings Client list:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=BGR_Holdings
2. Might I suggest you use more than just wikipedia for your sources? Maybe you need this to refresh your memory:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA39/001/2003/en/dom-ASA390012003en.html
3. There is one thing you said that I can’t argue with, “are these rich people the roots of all evils or what?”
Not just Modthai but quite a few posts on this site appear unable to acknowledge the faults of the side they somewhat blindly follow.
I’ll not post back to this site again. Although I would like to leave you with the following quote:
“There is one safeguard known generally to the wise, which is an advantage and security to all, but especially to democracies as against despots. What is it? Distrust.”
Demosthenes
Burma’s draft 2008 constitution
The 2008 SPDC May constitution are not based from 1947/74 principle and and 45 SELECTED SPDC’s MEN drafted.
Now, Public,NLD, all politicians and Citizens are requesting to discuss
(compromise) with 1990 election candidates and citizen.
The con-artist men are approaching to SPDC and taking the rights of
permits, land and business with military.
SPDC also using their power to grant the rights of business with state owned money and resources.
All are watching since 1988 and nothing out come results from 1988 to 2008 for country’s beneficial or devlopment.
Now, military is breaking their several promise since 1988 to hand over the power after 1990 election and defying all opposition groups and arrested all young students and politicians.
We understand the way of Burma is very simple and could be changed within one year if SPDC have sympthy or resepect the law.
Actually, SPDC expected the CIVIL WAR and they need to destroy
all Political Group by ARM after their dream completed of 2010 election.
So, the public and SPDC must solve their created problem with confrontation status and must solve by NLD and SPDC openly.
We are also not afraid for fighting to SPDC this time and must show our abilities from each channel and each location to fight back to
1. Than Shwe’s Group or brutual men
2. Police Squad
3. USDA or Kyant Phut with murphy
4. SPDC’s families or their business or properties
5. We have decided to show our strength very clearly in Burma.
The red army at the gates of parliament
Tarrin & Mod Thai: I do not know enough about the issues to comment, however would not be surprised if many prominent Thai establishment figures had engaged in corruption.
If there is evidence, by all means press for investigation & prosecution of Surayud, Jaruvan and anyone else reasonably suspected of corruption – I commend your efforts.
However, that is not why I choose to devote time to this hobby of commenting on these blogs.
Whether enough evidence is available to prosecute Thaksin, and whether or not he is not the only suspect character in Thai politics is rather besides the point of my arguments – I focus my attention on Thaksin because he is the person that commands significant electoral support, and also has many ardent supporters on these blogs.
Irrespective of whether he can be convicted on any more substantial charges, it is my opinion that there is enough evidence that (an unchanged) Thaksin is not suitable to be PM.
His authoritarian, heavy handed tactics, manipulation and intimidation, tax havens for tax avoidance (if not strictly evasion), mixing government and family business, his various comments when facing valid criticisms, and worse of all the conduct of the drug war and general lack of remorse are the reasons why I consider he is not suitable PM material – he had his time and has done some good along with the bad, but it is my opinion that his days of leading the country should be consigned to history.
If Abhisit, or any of his fellow politicians do similar things, and are ardently supported by the majority of posters here, then rest assured, I will switch the focus of my forays onto this and other Thai blogs – As far as I can see, that time has not yet come.
Democracy lovers, including pro-Thaksinites here, might think that I am just a PAD stooge, but in reality I have never had much time for Sondhi
Hopefully long term readers can recognise that my thoughts have also evolved slightly over the last 2 years, even though I maintain my anti-Thaksin slant, and the hope that the electoral masses will eventually become more discerning.
btw, I think you are selling Dr Connors short by claiming he is merely restating Sondhi’s accusations.
The red army at the gates of parliament
“To prove that a person ordered a three month ‘war on drugs’ and is therefore ultimately reponsible for the deaths of over two thousand people”
If the coup cannot find Thaksin guilty who else can???
qoute from wikipedia:; “After the coup, the military investigated the campaign but found that Thaksin had not been directly involved with any of these killings.”
We can’t also prove that the killings weren’t druglord bosses doing, you know..killed the smalltime dealers so themselved can’t be linked.
The red army at the gates of parliament
Nga
I’ve read many of your comment and you seems to be concentrating on Thaksin corruption for the most part,
(a) I just want to ask you couple questions, why dont you direct your accusation of corruption to other people like Sorayud (the junta PM), who has a house right by the national wild life conservative park (which some estimate to worth about 50mil) or that he actaully own a train that worth about 14 millions baht, which is almost 10 times the salary he got from being a retired general. Worst even, the general of secretary audit, khun ying Jaruwan who suppose to be the one who check the government for any unusual transaction, own a house worth more than 80 million baht with a payroll of about 500,000 a year.
(b)Secound point, you’ve been accusing Thaksin for corruption, can you gives us even one charge (and not accusation) that point out that Thaksin is actually made any wrong doing.
Oh and btw I’ve read your article, the point that the author made regarding Thaksin abuse of power actually came from those accused by Sondhi so your article actually defeat the porpose to prove your point.
The red army at the gates of parliament
Jim, Thanks for clearling the land case up for other readers. You are right, these are dark times indeed. (not just for Thailand but for all over the world, are these rich people the roots of all evils or what?) (Did you know that a PAD comment poser at Prachatai.com speculated that you are a lobbyist hired by Thaksin, well they seem to think BBC CNN etc. are hired by Thaksin as well, which is quite hilarious to how see how PAD think)
David B. You have said my thoughts exactly, thanks for that.
I wonder if saying “get rid of the lese majeste laws” is against the lese majeste laws?.
Nga, I hope you have judged Thaksin by the truths and evidents, not just your own prejudictions and other’s speculations.
The red army at the gates of parliament
“How can you condemn a person if his faults have not been clearly proven?”
To prove that a person ordered a three month ‘war on drugs’ and is therefore ultimately reponsible for the deaths of over two thousand people would be difficult.
If the person believes the judiciary in his own country are unfairly biased, that person could receive a fair trial abroad.
However, this would require such a country to ratify the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court and for that person to be tried in the Netherlands.
http://untreaty.un.org/cod/icc/statute/99_corr/cstatute.htm
This course of action would however, put such a country’s military at risk of prosecution for its conduct in restive provinces, and is therefore extremely unlikely.
The red army at the gates of parliament
David:
Did you read the article in the link I gave above?
Not a Sondhi rant, but it does refer to the not so shiny side of Thaksin, and where many think he was taking democracy.
(a) “all of the specific cases I have checked have yielded manipulation of the law”
Thaksin wouldn’t do that would he 🙂
(b) In a perfect world, such a miracle might happen – until you (educated) guys are prepared to see both sides of Thaksin, I don’t hold out much hope that one form of manipulation was not (will not) merely being (be) replaced with another.
(c) Possibly we agree on this point, as I’m all for exposing corruption, across the board, irrespective of who perpetrates it
The red army at the gates of parliament
hi Nga…
I dont give you much in the way of a direct response about Thaksins bad side…
I suppose:
a. because I think most of his “bad side” is not true, its just wild ravings from our mate Sondhi and other paid lackeys of the sewnior military and the rich families… all of the specific cases I have checked have yielded manipulation of the law, or no evidence found (despite heroic efforts by all those against him)
b. if Thailand stuck with a one-person one-vote democratic system all these things would be sorted out by the system where the people get the chance to choose whether their representatives stay in power or not… so whether he is corrupt or not is not relevant in the bigger scheme of things
c. corrupt behaviour is important when governments are not accountable to the people, like now when all the deals are being done… who cares because the military and rich families will decide whether the government will stay in power not the ordinary people of Thailand
by the way, my posts are held waiting on moderation I suppose because NM is worried they will get blocked in Thailand….
lets get rid of the lese majeste laws so we can speak freely!
Torture
Like most of the posts here, I agree that child prostitution is a crime that should see perpetrators seriously pursued and hit with the full force of the law.
At the same time, and I know that this is tricky and will draw criticism, I think Kristof’s reporting does need to be scrutinised. He is a celebrity reporter and seems to take up some topics that encourage moral outrage (and many of them should – child prostitution, forced sex work, outrages in Darfur) but tends to individualise the problems – this approach grabs at heartstrings – without necessarily revealing much more than saying that these outrages occur.
Some might argue that it is fair enough to keep saying it and keep it on various agendas. However, there are other outrages (for me) that he treats rather differently. Recall his “Two cheers for sweatshops” article with WuDunn a few years ago. In some research works, sweatshops and prostitution seem to have interesting relationships, but Kristof essentially praised sweatshops.
And then there are some of the issues that others have raised here – the buying out a woman and having her run back to the brothel, for example. It is interesting to note that this story was not only in the NYT but on CNN and was one of those reporter-as-sleuth things which didn’t really dig into the story. After a number of articles and TV stories on sex work of various kinds mainly focused on Cambodia, wouldn’t you expect him to be getting beyond the sensational headline? Wouldn’t you want him to be showing some evidence of a growing understanding of the troubling issues that have been so divisive of feminists and NGOs working in the field? Wouldn’t you want him to look at the issues that bring together interesting political coalitions in, say, Washington? Should some questions be asked about why the Bush administration has funded so much trafficking work, much of it by fundamentalist Christian organisations, while not being interested and providing almost no funding for anti-AIDS work, related family planning initiatives and agencies that work directly with sex workers but do not toe the required trafficking and abstinence lines?
Some of this is shown in a rather good (IMHO) documentary – Trading Women – that was put together by David Feingold a couple of years ago. A very thought-provoking approach, which Feingold has also taken up in print.
And I guess another thing that would interest me about Kristof relates to his career as a public speaker, where he gets paid quite substantial amounts (I happened to have a minor part in an organising group for one of his campus talks a couple of years ago). I have no idea whether this money is put to good use in supporting the NGOs and others who assist him to do his reports in Cambodia and Darfur.
Red shirts and civil disobedience
Bangkok Pundit had a bit from Matichon that I found very interesting about the political situation, it’s worth a read. It’s translated from the original Thai so it’s not as hard to get through.
http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2009/01/government-from-sri-sao.html