Rogera, I think because of past experiences, the Thai police and military have begun to enforce preventive measures to avoid any possibility of physical confrontation between the two groups. I don’t think you can use fear to inhibit Thais from moving ahead toward democracy.
As for the army staging a coup, the politicians (both the government and the opposition) will mobilize people against that option. No one wants to lose power. When national security is at risk, I think the Thai military has the right to stage a coup.
Freebird writes what he has. I suggest he read my first book (Panama Echoes From a Revolution), seeing as he thinks he knows everything about me. In my Panama book there is ample acknowledgement of my past political views. I will also add that the man whom we planned to put in power (after we got rid of Torrijos and Noriega), was a personal friend of non other then Adolf Hitler.
I believe that perhaps there might be number of your readers who would find this story highly interesting.
There was an article several years ago dealing with this false assumption.
A woman in New York City was a prostitute. Her husband was a heroin addict. The husband contacted AIDS, which he then transmitted to his wife.
She, in turn, transmitted the AIDS virus to over sixty five men.
Several of these men then gave AIDS to their wives or girlfriends.
Lastly, several children got the virus from their mothers.
You might argue that without the AIDS virus added to the mix, there are no victims. But we don’t live in a world where we get to lay the ground rules. AIDS is out there.
Thus, prostitution is not a victimless crime.
I have just heard that Ji Ungpakorn has been called in by the police on allegations of lese majeste.
It is known that at least 3 people are in jail awaiting trial on lese majeste (and have been held for some time now). It is also known that Jonathon Head has another lese majeste allegation against him. Likewise, other academics have recently been interviewed by the police regarding lese majeste.
Looks like the Democrats are indeed the royalists party.
We could accuse him of hypocrisy or worse. But at the same time, he reflects the deep fears that the royalists have. For example, if the report is accurate, he calls on the military to restore unity; he notes the king is only a force for unity while he is around. And, he is clear that the NE has seen considerable diminution of support for royalist-oriented rule of the past.
I would rather say that legalizing prostitution makes very little difference in undeveloped countries such as Cambodia, where the law is in many areas of life quite irrelevant anyhow.
In my experience, roughly said, forced prostitution is the strongest in the cheapest brothels, less so in the more upmarket places, and affects women and families from the poorest and most disadvantaged sectors of society, and cross border trafficked women without any rights.
If one can eradicate poverty, than forced prostitution will automatically decrease.
But don’t forget that forced prostitution also exists in developed nations such as Japan and most countries in western Europe that have partly legalized prostitution. There most affected are cross border trafficked women from poor countries.
If you look at Thailand, Thai women inside Thailand are rarely forced into prostitution now compared to before, but choose themselves to enter the trade.
Forced prostitutes in Thailand are now mostly women from hill tribes without Thai ID, and women from neighboring countries. More often than not these women work in cheap local brothels most foreigners rarely enter.
You’ve made a good point, L.S.S #22. That would be a beginning, but don’t forget that the sort of people (police, military & local ‘mafias,’ with networks extending very high) who own or control the venues would still have significant power. And who would oversee the regulation? In societies where even school administrators & Justice Department Officials are massively on the take, I can’t imagine that the workers or their clients would find it easy to demand “the normal regulations of trade and the protections (for both labor and consumer) that stem from them.”
I am a new comer to the New Mandala debate. So I read all the comments to understand what are the arguments.
I realize that everyone is unable to recognize Nganadeeleg’s motives. Here is my explanation. The three quotes below are his comments.
1. “I find it very difficult to respect something that keeps throwing up people like Thaksin/Bush/Howard as acceptable leaders”
2. “Whether or not he is not the only suspect character in Thai politics is rather besides the point of my arguments – I focus my attention on Thaksin because he is the person that commands significant electoral support”
Thaksin made foreign policy alliance with President of the United States and Prime Minister Howard of Australia. Nganadeeleg and Michael Conners are against the U.S. so they against Thaksin. You all have to realize Nganadeeleg’s real intention so that you don’t play into his hand arguing at individual and national level issues when in fact the issue is at the international level.
BTW, The “no to the two camps” (р╕кр╕нр╕Зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕нр╕▓) is originated by Jai Ungpakorn.
So I found a picture on Southern Poverty Law Center the other day. Turns out Thomas Bleming is a Nazi (apparently Clendennen is too). I don’t mean in the cliched way where everyone likens those they disagree with to Nazis… I mean he’s literally a Nazi.
I want to ask Somsak to explain his response to the article he links to a little more. I be just dumb, but I am not sure that I understand the criticisms he makes about this particular article.
If he is simply saying that Chang Noi should attack the monarchy, the no need for more explanation. There are many in Thailand who do not directly attack the monarchy. But if there is something more, let us know.
I don’t see the sarcasm Somsak refers to. Rather I see something similar to Jakkrapob’s famous comment that Thaksin sleepwalked into a historical position that was not necessarily of his own choosing.
I think such a view warrants serious consideration. It is always claimed by anti-Thaksin academics that there is a need to acknowledge Thaksin’s failures when in office and how this disqualifies him as a democrat in any sense of the word. However, there can be little doubt that Thaksin has become a symbol of lost democracy for many people. Again, I think CN points this out, and we need to take that point seriously.
There is a delicious irony in Thailand with dogs of foreign pedigree able to be insured for up to THB 500,000. Human foreign mongrels in Thailand cannot easily get local insurance cover for death but then I suppose a pedigree dog is a privileged species for some better-off Thais, especially if the owners can get them to bark at the right people, hopefully being those people who threaten “democracy” in Thailand. I suppose if I were a better off Thai I would think it right and proper that my dog, even if of the running variety, whose death can be leveraged to put what after all is a pittance to better-off Thais into the faithful dog owner’s pocket, rather than permitting “rent-seeking” farangs” and their various retainers from undermining the financial security of life insurance companies. Perhaps this is what Sarit Thanarat used to have in mind when he personally “executed” errant Chinese shopowners who would burn down their shops before the Chinese New Year and try and collect the insurance.
If I may veer the conversation to a slight different topic, I would ask if the illegality of prostitution in Cambodia, and other places, contributes to the common use of violence by pimps to control sex workers.
When something is pushed into the underground economy, by definition, it comes in contact with the criminal sector, whose hallmarks are corruption and violence. If prostitution, a victimless crime when it involves two or more consenting adults, were regulated, decriminalized, and/or legalized. the normal regulations of trade and the protections (for both labor and consumer) that stem from them would help lessen, if not eliminate, such instances of forced prostitution.
Thanks for the nice comment about my book.
I don’t view my book as journalism anyhow, i believe that such a complex subculture cannot be sufficiently explained within the limitations of journalism, which by definition is more observant from the outside than participating and engaging.
But i would most definitely not want to be a participating part in this particular Cambodian scenery – that is a darkness that is too much for me. Just reporting on it in a journalistic way was more than i could take.
You are right though with your point of the sanctimonious nature of Kristof’s reporting – it is superficial in many ways, and explains little beyond we know already.
“If we dont respect each other vote, then democracy is meaningless”
Tarrin: I concede that you have the high ground with that statement, but I already feel that democracy is meaningless (and not only in Thailand).
Unfortunately, I find it very difficult to respect something that keeps throwing up people like Thaksin/Bush/Howard as acceptable leaders.
I do also think you missed the point of my above post – to me, it’s not all about legal convictions – use of tax havens & nominees alone is enough to disqualify a PM in my eyes, let alone the other manipulations, intimidations etc
As for the war on drugs, I agree it was a noble cause, but why condone the way he promoted extra-judicial killings?
Anyway, I’ve been over all this before, so lets just leave it at:
– You still think Thaksin is good PM material, and I don’t.
(at least we are not throwing eggs, or bashing or shooting each other)
To answer Markus’s post.
1. http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=BGR_Holdings
Thaksin was the company’s client for 2006-2007, he said he only hired the company to set the record straight in the internatinal world about the coup. There was a Thaksis’s short interview about this matter in Thairat newspaper earlier this week…
This is just another propagonda’s trick to paint Thaksin as a bad guy!….
2. Killing is wrong….. It’s an eternal question
“would you kill to save more people?”
you might question his methods, but I salute his intentions and results.
3. somehow the more money you have the more greedy, you’ll get…
ofcourse I can see the fault sides… but as I live in the real world..
Noone’s perfect, are you?… well can anyone give me aname of a perfect leader in the past 100 years??? Thaksin may not be perfect
but he was the best Thai PM I’ve ever had.
Give me a PM who’s willing to play dirty to fight the dirties anyday. http://www.prachataiwebboard.com/webboard/wbtopic.php?id=769141
I think we all have to agree to disagree.. We will not be able to change each other minds about Thaksin. We still have freedom to believe what we want to believe, right???(just dont say a certain things out loud haha)
At this moment Thaksin, in my opinion is merely a decoy the greedy elites use to distract Thai people away from the real issues. The problems Thailand is having right now is not about Thaksin but the ways the elites have been treating Thailand and its people.
The top of this page is about the “Red Army” so I’d rather talk about them! don’t you?
I respect your thought on the part about supporting corruption screening , but what I disagree with you is the that accusations that you have point out against Thaksin are mostly came from Sondhi camp, although you claimed you are not associate them the PADm but the accusation that you made against Thaksin is actually generate directly by the PAD.
Now, I want you to look at your logic is what is actually happening here, you claimed that there are enough evidence to convict Thaksin of his wrong doing. After 2 years of investigation (From the Junta governemnt and the renow Khun Ying Jaruwan) they couldnt find a single legitimate claim against his wrong doing, only the Ratchada land plot, which any bankers and athorny at law out there would find this cas rediculous at best. Not only they didnt find any wrong doing from Khun Ying Podjaman (hince she didnt get any jail time) but Thaksin got jail time from signing the acknowledgement form for his wofe *(under Thailand’s law, spout has to acknowledge that their partner is going to purchase a land). So if Thaksin got a jail time for signing the acknowledgment, I think thousand more people would have to get charge as well, according to the rules of law. If there is really any solid evidence, dont you think finding Thaksin guilty would be much easier and wouldn’t take 2 full years?.
On the tax charge, did you know that Thaksin pay almost 300 million in tax in 2005? I think you have to understand the meaning of “Tax planning” and “Tax evasion” a bit in detial. You see, any high net worth individual has some sort of tax planning scheme, so that one has to pay few tax within the frame work that permit by law. If charging Thaksin on tax evasion case then the judge should press charge all of the high net worth individual in Thailand as well, because everyone is doing it.
And on the drug wars, this is as controversial as it get, if you ask the parents of the addictes whoes live got save by Thaksin then you might find some valid point to like him. However if you ask the parents of the drug dealers whoes lost their life because of the gun fight with police and inter-gang killing to disassocated their cells from the main network or those that got killed from police brutality then you might find a reason to hate him, the choice is yours on this one.
If you think Thaksin doesnt have the PM material then I respect your decision, but you also has to respect those that think he does have PM material and elect him to lead the country. If we dont respect each other vote, then democracy is meaningless
Jim: you just provided an answer which explains I’ll no longer submit to these pages (after this – honestly!)
You select only a small part of people’s argument and reject it out of hand.
“the likes of “sourcewatch” which regurgitates the same spin we have heard incessantly”
Did you bother to read the link? Sourcewatch’s information comes from BGR Holdings themselves. Are you suggesting that BGR Holdings are regurgitating the same spin? I wouldn’t argue with that.
“English language published materials that have been shown to be biased”
I remember the PAD using the same argument when it suits them.
You can surely understand why politicians would hire PR firms to represent their images around the world. If you throw enough around, some of it will stick. After all,
“Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.”
Noam Chomsky
regurgitated spin?
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Red shirts and civil disobedience
Rogera, I think because of past experiences, the Thai police and military have begun to enforce preventive measures to avoid any possibility of physical confrontation between the two groups. I don’t think you can use fear to inhibit Thais from moving ahead toward democracy.
As for the army staging a coup, the politicians (both the government and the opposition) will mobilize people against that option. No one wants to lose power. When national security is at risk, I think the Thai military has the right to stage a coup.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Freebird writes what he has. I suggest he read my first book (Panama Echoes From a Revolution), seeing as he thinks he knows everything about me. In my Panama book there is ample acknowledgement of my past political views. I will also add that the man whom we planned to put in power (after we got rid of Torrijos and Noriega), was a personal friend of non other then Adolf Hitler.
I believe that perhaps there might be number of your readers who would find this story highly interesting.
Torture
Prostitution is not a victimless crime.
There was an article several years ago dealing with this false assumption.
A woman in New York City was a prostitute. Her husband was a heroin addict. The husband contacted AIDS, which he then transmitted to his wife.
She, in turn, transmitted the AIDS virus to over sixty five men.
Several of these men then gave AIDS to their wives or girlfriends.
Lastly, several children got the virus from their mothers.
You might argue that without the AIDS virus added to the mix, there are no victims. But we don’t live in a world where we get to lay the ground rules. AIDS is out there.
Thus, prostitution is not a victimless crime.
Defending the taboo – the royal response
I have just heard that Ji Ungpakorn has been called in by the police on allegations of lese majeste.
It is known that at least 3 people are in jail awaiting trial on lese majeste (and have been held for some time now). It is also known that Jonathon Head has another lese majeste allegation against him. Likewise, other academics have recently been interviewed by the police regarding lese majeste.
Looks like the Democrats are indeed the royalists party.
Defending the taboo – the royal response
Don’t neglect to read the story on Prem in the Nation (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/topstory/30092910/Prem-calls-for-unity-in-Northeast). One has to wonder where he was when PAD were at work? Well, I guess we can suggest reasons why he didn’t see disunity in their activities….
We could accuse him of hypocrisy or worse. But at the same time, he reflects the deep fears that the royalists have. For example, if the report is accurate, he calls on the military to restore unity; he notes the king is only a force for unity while he is around. And, he is clear that the NE has seen considerable diminution of support for royalist-oriented rule of the past.
Torture
“Lleij Samuel Schwartz”:
I would rather say that legalizing prostitution makes very little difference in undeveloped countries such as Cambodia, where the law is in many areas of life quite irrelevant anyhow.
In my experience, roughly said, forced prostitution is the strongest in the cheapest brothels, less so in the more upmarket places, and affects women and families from the poorest and most disadvantaged sectors of society, and cross border trafficked women without any rights.
If one can eradicate poverty, than forced prostitution will automatically decrease.
But don’t forget that forced prostitution also exists in developed nations such as Japan and most countries in western Europe that have partly legalized prostitution. There most affected are cross border trafficked women from poor countries.
If you look at Thailand, Thai women inside Thailand are rarely forced into prostitution now compared to before, but choose themselves to enter the trade.
Forced prostitutes in Thailand are now mostly women from hill tribes without Thai ID, and women from neighboring countries. More often than not these women work in cheap local brothels most foreigners rarely enter.
Torture
You’ve made a good point, L.S.S #22. That would be a beginning, but don’t forget that the sort of people (police, military & local ‘mafias,’ with networks extending very high) who own or control the venues would still have significant power. And who would oversee the regulation? In societies where even school administrators & Justice Department Officials are massively on the take, I can’t imagine that the workers or their clients would find it easy to demand “the normal regulations of trade and the protections (for both labor and consumer) that stem from them.”
But it would be a beginning.
The red army at the gates of parliament
I am a new comer to the New Mandala debate. So I read all the comments to understand what are the arguments.
I realize that everyone is unable to recognize Nganadeeleg’s motives. Here is my explanation. The three quotes below are his comments.
1. “I find it very difficult to respect something that keeps throwing up people like Thaksin/Bush/Howard as acceptable leaders”
2. “Whether or not he is not the only suspect character in Thai politics is rather besides the point of my arguments – I focus my attention on Thaksin because he is the person that commands significant electoral support”
3. “a quote from MK Connors:
http://sovereignmyth.blogspot.com/2007/09/standing-in-neither-camp-coup-year-on.html”
Thaksin made foreign policy alliance with President of the United States and Prime Minister Howard of Australia. Nganadeeleg and Michael Conners are against the U.S. so they against Thaksin. You all have to realize Nganadeeleg’s real intention so that you don’t play into his hand arguing at individual and national level issues when in fact the issue is at the international level.
BTW, The “no to the two camps” (р╕кр╕нр╕Зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕нр╕▓) is originated by Jai Ungpakorn.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
So I found a picture on Southern Poverty Law Center the other day. Turns out Thomas Bleming is a Nazi (apparently Clendennen is too). I don’t mean in the cliched way where everyone likens those they disagree with to Nazis… I mean he’s literally a Nazi.
http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww314/freebird170/Bleming-Nazi.jpg
Left to right: R. Biederman, Tom Bleming, Jimmy Clendennen
Thank God such a righteous warrior is now “helping” the Karen.
Chang Noi on the knowledge industry
I want to ask Somsak to explain his response to the article he links to a little more. I be just dumb, but I am not sure that I understand the criticisms he makes about this particular article.
If he is simply saying that Chang Noi should attack the monarchy, the no need for more explanation. There are many in Thailand who do not directly attack the monarchy. But if there is something more, let us know.
I don’t see the sarcasm Somsak refers to. Rather I see something similar to Jakkrapob’s famous comment that Thaksin sleepwalked into a historical position that was not necessarily of his own choosing.
I think such a view warrants serious consideration. It is always claimed by anti-Thaksin academics that there is a need to acknowledge Thaksin’s failures when in office and how this disqualifies him as a democrat in any sense of the word. However, there can be little doubt that Thaksin has become a symbol of lost democracy for many people. Again, I think CN points this out, and we need to take that point seriously.
Two more publications on life after Nargis
you can get all documents from Tripartie(TCG) on
Asean Relief for Cyclon Nargis Victims
http://www.aseansec.org/CN.htm
We waiting for the next one,end of January
Sorry sir, we are not willing to cover Thong Daeng
There is a delicious irony in Thailand with dogs of foreign pedigree able to be insured for up to THB 500,000. Human foreign mongrels in Thailand cannot easily get local insurance cover for death but then I suppose a pedigree dog is a privileged species for some better-off Thais, especially if the owners can get them to bark at the right people, hopefully being those people who threaten “democracy” in Thailand. I suppose if I were a better off Thai I would think it right and proper that my dog, even if of the running variety, whose death can be leveraged to put what after all is a pittance to better-off Thais into the faithful dog owner’s pocket, rather than permitting “rent-seeking” farangs” and their various retainers from undermining the financial security of life insurance companies. Perhaps this is what Sarit Thanarat used to have in mind when he personally “executed” errant Chinese shopowners who would burn down their shops before the Chinese New Year and try and collect the insurance.
Torture
If I may veer the conversation to a slight different topic, I would ask if the illegality of prostitution in Cambodia, and other places, contributes to the common use of violence by pimps to control sex workers.
When something is pushed into the underground economy, by definition, it comes in contact with the criminal sector, whose hallmarks are corruption and violence. If prostitution, a victimless crime when it involves two or more consenting adults, were regulated, decriminalized, and/or legalized. the normal regulations of trade and the protections (for both labor and consumer) that stem from them would help lessen, if not eliminate, such instances of forced prostitution.
The red army at the gates of parliament
thanks ModThai… great post
The red army at the gates of parliament
Marcus- best check the link about Thaksin from your sourcewatch link on BGR and you will see what I mean…
Torture
“Chris”:
Thanks for the nice comment about my book.
I don’t view my book as journalism anyhow, i believe that such a complex subculture cannot be sufficiently explained within the limitations of journalism, which by definition is more observant from the outside than participating and engaging.
But i would most definitely not want to be a participating part in this particular Cambodian scenery – that is a darkness that is too much for me. Just reporting on it in a journalistic way was more than i could take.
You are right though with your point of the sanctimonious nature of Kristof’s reporting – it is superficial in many ways, and explains little beyond we know already.
The red army at the gates of parliament
“If we dont respect each other vote, then democracy is meaningless”
Tarrin: I concede that you have the high ground with that statement, but I already feel that democracy is meaningless (and not only in Thailand).
Unfortunately, I find it very difficult to respect something that keeps throwing up people like Thaksin/Bush/Howard as acceptable leaders.
I do also think you missed the point of my above post – to me, it’s not all about legal convictions – use of tax havens & nominees alone is enough to disqualify a PM in my eyes, let alone the other manipulations, intimidations etc
As for the war on drugs, I agree it was a noble cause, but why condone the way he promoted extra-judicial killings?
Anyway, I’ve been over all this before, so lets just leave it at:
– You still think Thaksin is good PM material, and I don’t.
(at least we are not throwing eggs, or bashing or shooting each other)
The red army at the gates of parliament
To answer Markus’s post.
1. http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=BGR_Holdings
Thaksin was the company’s client for 2006-2007, he said he only hired the company to set the record straight in the internatinal world about the coup. There was a Thaksis’s short interview about this matter in Thairat newspaper earlier this week…
This is just another propagonda’s trick to paint Thaksin as a bad guy!….
2. Killing is wrong….. It’s an eternal question
“would you kill to save more people?”
you might question his methods, but I salute his intentions and results.
3. somehow the more money you have the more greedy, you’ll get…
ofcourse I can see the fault sides… but as I live in the real world..
Noone’s perfect, are you?… well can anyone give me aname of a perfect leader in the past 100 years??? Thaksin may not be perfect
but he was the best Thai PM I’ve ever had.
Give me a PM who’s willing to play dirty to fight the dirties anyday.
http://www.prachataiwebboard.com/webboard/wbtopic.php?id=769141
I think we all have to agree to disagree.. We will not be able to change each other minds about Thaksin. We still have freedom to believe what we want to believe, right???(just dont say a certain things out loud haha)
At this moment Thaksin, in my opinion is merely a decoy the greedy elites use to distract Thai people away from the real issues. The problems Thailand is having right now is not about Thaksin but the ways the elites have been treating Thailand and its people.
The top of this page is about the “Red Army” so I’d rather talk about them! don’t you?
The red army at the gates of parliament
to nga
I respect your thought on the part about supporting corruption screening , but what I disagree with you is the that accusations that you have point out against Thaksin are mostly came from Sondhi camp, although you claimed you are not associate them the PADm but the accusation that you made against Thaksin is actually generate directly by the PAD.
Now, I want you to look at your logic is what is actually happening here, you claimed that there are enough evidence to convict Thaksin of his wrong doing. After 2 years of investigation (From the Junta governemnt and the renow Khun Ying Jaruwan) they couldnt find a single legitimate claim against his wrong doing, only the Ratchada land plot, which any bankers and athorny at law out there would find this cas rediculous at best. Not only they didnt find any wrong doing from Khun Ying Podjaman (hince she didnt get any jail time) but Thaksin got jail time from signing the acknowledgement form for his wofe *(under Thailand’s law, spout has to acknowledge that their partner is going to purchase a land). So if Thaksin got a jail time for signing the acknowledgment, I think thousand more people would have to get charge as well, according to the rules of law. If there is really any solid evidence, dont you think finding Thaksin guilty would be much easier and wouldn’t take 2 full years?.
On the tax charge, did you know that Thaksin pay almost 300 million in tax in 2005? I think you have to understand the meaning of “Tax planning” and “Tax evasion” a bit in detial. You see, any high net worth individual has some sort of tax planning scheme, so that one has to pay few tax within the frame work that permit by law. If charging Thaksin on tax evasion case then the judge should press charge all of the high net worth individual in Thailand as well, because everyone is doing it.
And on the drug wars, this is as controversial as it get, if you ask the parents of the addictes whoes live got save by Thaksin then you might find some valid point to like him. However if you ask the parents of the drug dealers whoes lost their life because of the gun fight with police and inter-gang killing to disassocated their cells from the main network or those that got killed from police brutality then you might find a reason to hate him, the choice is yours on this one.
If you think Thaksin doesnt have the PM material then I respect your decision, but you also has to respect those that think he does have PM material and elect him to lead the country. If we dont respect each other vote, then democracy is meaningless
The red army at the gates of parliament
Jim: you just provided an answer which explains I’ll no longer submit to these pages (after this – honestly!)
You select only a small part of people’s argument and reject it out of hand.
“the likes of “sourcewatch” which regurgitates the same spin we have heard incessantly”
Did you bother to read the link? Sourcewatch’s information comes from BGR Holdings themselves. Are you suggesting that BGR Holdings are regurgitating the same spin? I wouldn’t argue with that.
“English language published materials that have been shown to be biased”
I remember the PAD using the same argument when it suits them.
You can surely understand why politicians would hire PR firms to represent their images around the world. If you throw enough around, some of it will stick. After all,
“Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.”
Noam Chomsky
regurgitated spin?