There is no need to mosaic the face if the elf no.3 is just a mere northeastern ex-MP. I believe that person must be the one and the only lord Voldemort (you know who….) 🙂
Nick:
I am not sure I said or meant democracy would not be good for Thailand. I believe the thrust was that the way people are going about it is not good. The Algerian comparison was intended to only underline the fact that good intentions can go awry quickly, especially through the voting process.
Thaksin’s promises were not “impossible-to-fill”. Even with the problems of implementation, they have still meant a considerable rise of standard of living for the main upcountry population.
Can you provide any evidence of this considerable rise in the standard of living for the main upcountry population? I have yet to see it.
Where’s the beef?
Abhisit’s so-called draft dodging seems to have found an explanation, as well as not having been properly charged in the first place.
As to hearing about rumors and pretending to know they are true, I would rather remain silent. If that means, to you, that I don’t know about them and it makes you happy, fine. But all these years in my dirty old life I have made it a habit of refraining from repeating unfounded or difficult to support allegations. Rumors are nice, and details sometimes juicy, but proof is proof.
Another article of sophisms, halftruths, and exageration to support the elitist notion that Democracy may not be such a good idea for Thailand (and other countries, as you suggested in this article).
Thank you, yes, we foreign correspondents do not ignore the shortcomings of the Thaksin period, we have actually spent all these years criticizing his rule (with less intimidation than is suggested in your article – i can’t remember having had to dodge bullets and grudgingly obey armed guards while reporting under Thaksin, as i have had with PAD). Yet harping on past events and glories, to excuse the maybe even more undemocratic actions such as a military coup is a fruitless exercise.
First of all, vote buying does not have the effects anymore it had in the eighties, there is ample academic evidence for this available. Even Korn had to admit in the FCCT that PPP had spend less in the North than the other big parties. Every party engages in vote buying, so do the Democrats. Which should be clear to everyone that has observed rural elections over the last decades.
And the maybe more serious, but more difficult buying of MPs is also now evidently done by the Democrats. Or do you believe that Newin and his friends had now a miraculous transformation from Saulus to Paulus?
Thaksin’s promises were not “impossible-to-fill”. Even with the problems of implementation, they have still meant a considerable rise of standard of living for the main upcountry population.
This was a marked difference from previous governments, where little was promised, and nothing delivered. As i have observed for the last nearly two decades, and very much during the after crises Democrat administration, which can be seen as the catalyst of the rise of TRT.
Thaksin’s promises were in the eyes of his voters fulfilled, and that is why TRT/PPP was elected again, and again. Accusations that only vote buying and intimidation achieved that impressive result is pure exaggeration, as if the Northeast and the North is actually consisting mostly of secret Thaksin opponents that would prefer to vote for Democrats if they were not bought and intimidated.
Was Thaksin a representative of pure Democracy? Clearly not. But Democrats are neither. The difference though is, that TRT/PPP/Puah Thai is based on popular support, the basics of democracy, while the Democrat rise to power, especially the engineered parliamentary election of Abhisit is more than murky.
Instead of glancing over and supporting such machinations, it would be better to suggest the Democrats to actually campaign on a policy based platform, for a change, and gather popular support, which then may result in not having to rely on extra-constitutional powers and some of the most corrupt elements of Thai politics, as they always did.
Comparing TRT/PPP/Puah Thai to Algeria’s islamic fundamentalists is fishing for arguments, and hardly comparable to Thailand, only to serve articles of support for PAD. TRT is not a religious based cult of fanatics.
His vocal opposition though, the PAD, does resemble that characterization more (do you remember the episode of Sonthi, his trance, and the resulting implementation of women’s hygienic napkins in expelling evil Cambodian spirits that were accused to have been evoked by the man that now made Abhisit’s rise to power possible?).
And the now ruling Democrats are far too closely aligned with that PAD, several of its MPs being PAD members, and the appointed foreign minister being a very high profile PAD member.
Instead of going on about what Thaksin has done wrong (well known already), such an article about the current situation should also contain some of the current problems.
I hardly feel he is a terrorist and may be actually a good choice. It seems everyone has forgotten the terrorist attacks carried out against the PAD by the UDD nightly.
For Frank: I am wondering why Gen Anupong was reported in the press a few days ago saying that the statute of limitations (or whatever it is) has passed on the case so it is no longer a legal worry for Abhisit.
Both Nantida and soi watcher miss the points of my post. As I said, Draft-dodging has a respectable history in some parts of the world at certain times. There was no defense of Abhisit by me. Comparing him with GW Bush was to show how the elite avoid the requirements and laws that are applied to the lower classes. My main point is that this issue will not go far and there are better issues to attack Abhisit on.
I wasn’t at the event where Kasit spoke, but I have spoken to 2-3 Thai academics who were there, and they were shocked that Kasit spoke in this way when he was dues to be foreign minister. So Medhi is just making the usual defense from the elite – foreigners don’t understand. How many times will we hear this in the coming year?
I assumed that these guys have met MEDHI KRONGKAEW and, whatever they thought of him at the time they think that his current statements are interesting… to me, they appear irrational, trying to spin a story about Kasit and not really making sense…
is this not something of interest generally and constructive in the sense that when we read stories of actions by the Thai ONACC we can recognise that a somewhat finer rationality filter than normal should be used?
Personally I am already alert and concerned about most Thai institutions because there is so much manipulation and dishonourable activity behind their actions that means any so-called determinations or judgements need to be independently investigated before accepting anything at face value.
do you think my attitude is constructive, in terms of searching for the “truth” or perhaps destructive because my attitude indicates reduced “faith” in the operations of Thai institutions?
Elite PAD apologist Medhi has in fact been a regular visitor to ANU. So, next time, please ask him a few hard questions. I know this type of Thai male phu yai only too well. On the surface, they are friendly when you nicely wai them and show your deference and admiration. But as soon as you question their competence, knowledge, and judgment, they can become very intolerant.
Medhi’s comments are not fit for publishing and as an academic he should be ashamed of himself…People like him are using any excuse for excusing the unexcusable and undermining basic democratic principles; a country for the people by the people.
Frank G Anderson copied the title from Francis Fukuyama’s “The End of History”. They both have the same objective. Listen, the World War II was over, Germany and Japan lost the war, move on, would you?
After reading his article, I must say his dirty trick is obsolete, he is too old for the new generation. It is pathetic to see someone writes about Thailand when he does not even know the current news about Abhisit Vejjajiva’s draft dodging.
Is there another country in this region where one can comment in the knowledge that it might just lead to something constructive? ….. No. Blogging in this region is a displacement activity for those who haven’t yet quite conditioned themselves to the local notion that life is for shopping and conspicuous consumption. God knows where the notion of Eastern mysticism ever came from. I see a temple. I see another shopping op.
Political polarization can not be solved by placing a terrorist as a foreign minister. Mr. Kasit Pirom does not respect the rule of law.
He was on the PAD’s stage and mobilized people to seize the Suwanaphum international airport. He said he had no regret. His wife attended the PAD rally daily. He explained that in fact he had lots of fun, he enjoyed good food, good music, while causing trouble to international passengers and damaging Thailand’s economic opportunity with illegal action.
This should not be the behavior of a foreign minister. Thailand deserves someone with better judgment. We must not reward terrorists.
Where’s all the proof about Abhisit’s draft dodging?
There is another way to avoid the draft as well – live abroad until past the age. Sort of like the Canada thing without intent to specifically escape the draft.
[…] New Mandala reader, Ralph Cramden, made some interesting comments on our recent post Update on the Royal Taboo: Alongside the various responses to the Economist, ranging from the bizarre (in the Nation) to […]
Dishonest people are comfortable when they lie. The word honesty has no meaning to this type of person. Integrity is a universal norm regardless of the perspective one holds. It distinguishes right from wrong.
Ralph Kramden has intentionally misled the issue by comparing different contexts. The United States has a law allowing those who have conscientious objection to war to avoid serving in the military. In the case of George W Bush, his father was the CIA director at the time, so he was not allowed to be outside the U.S. Instead, George W had to serve in the National Guard military unit as a pilot.
In Thailand, Thai males go through a military training. If one does not want to be in the military, the reserve option is available by training only during weekends. Thailand was not in any war scenario during the time Abhisit Vejjajiva avoided military training. In Thailand, only female can avoid military training, Abhisit Vejjajiva chose this option instead, in short, a draft dodger Abhisit Vejjajiva.
In the new dawn of mainland Southeast Asia, the majority of people strive to bring progress, equality and liberty to better ourselves. We reject cockroaches!
Pasuk and Baker put it in a nutshell. Democracy after all is not the end all and be all. It’s a means to an end, to a fairer and ethical society. Not surprisingly it’s always been open to abuse and rampant manipulation.
I agree with Jon about the rural-urban divide. Unless the issue is addressed, ‘big city bright lights’ will continue to attract and cause this inequitable skew that manifests itself in both rural and urban squalor with untapped human resources, underpaid and exploited labour, shanty towns and squatters. The dream of lifting us all to ‘middle-class’ comfort and not least intellectual political conciousness is after all the socialist dream.
Work that pays a reasonable income for everyone who wants to work, rural or urban, is what the boom-bust system with short term political goals and no proper long term national planning fails dismally to provide particularly in times of recession. This undermines the desperately needed consumption drive for the so called ‘wealth creators and job providers’ which only a responsible and not a cop-out state has the necessary political will and the wherewithal to rectify by ‘pump priming’ as Keynes once famously pointed out.
Respectable history ? Michael Moore in his film Fahreinheit pointed out that sons of US senators also did draft dodging. So the authorities approached poor black families to be recruited as soldiers and sent to Iraq to die ! Certainly the sons of Thai rich families like the Vejajivas are scared of the rigors of the military life and prefer to enjoy life at Eton and Oxford. Abhisit’s priveleged life can be clearly seen at the way he held the broom during a recent clean-up of the Govt House after the PAD goons left.
Abhisit’s draft dodging is a bad example for Thai youths and in view of the coming Children’s Day in January, Abhisit should be ashamed to give the annual slogan to Thai children in his capacity as PM. One caller to the taxi radio station cynically suggested that the 2009 slogan for Children’s Day should be “nee taharn wan nee, pen nayok wan na” (If you can dodge military service now, you will become a prime minister in the future) !
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Christmas celebrations at New Mandala
To Land of Snarl
There is no need to mosaic the face if the elf no.3 is just a mere northeastern ex-MP. I believe that person must be the one and the only lord Voldemort (you know who….) 🙂
Ji Ungpakorn on Thailand’s second coup
Nick:
I am not sure I said or meant democracy would not be good for Thailand. I believe the thrust was that the way people are going about it is not good. The Algerian comparison was intended to only underline the fact that good intentions can go awry quickly, especially through the voting process.
Ji Ungpakorn on Thailand’s second coup
Thaksin’s promises were not “impossible-to-fill”. Even with the problems of implementation, they have still meant a considerable rise of standard of living for the main upcountry population.
Can you provide any evidence of this considerable rise in the standard of living for the main upcountry population? I have yet to see it.
Ji Ungpakorn on Thailand’s second coup
Where’s the beef?
Abhisit’s so-called draft dodging seems to have found an explanation, as well as not having been properly charged in the first place.
As to hearing about rumors and pretending to know they are true, I would rather remain silent. If that means, to you, that I don’t know about them and it makes you happy, fine. But all these years in my dirty old life I have made it a habit of refraining from repeating unfounded or difficult to support allegations. Rumors are nice, and details sometimes juicy, but proof is proof.
Ji Ungpakorn on Thailand’s second coup
“Frank G Anderson”:
Another article of sophisms, halftruths, and exageration to support the elitist notion that Democracy may not be such a good idea for Thailand (and other countries, as you suggested in this article).
Thank you, yes, we foreign correspondents do not ignore the shortcomings of the Thaksin period, we have actually spent all these years criticizing his rule (with less intimidation than is suggested in your article – i can’t remember having had to dodge bullets and grudgingly obey armed guards while reporting under Thaksin, as i have had with PAD). Yet harping on past events and glories, to excuse the maybe even more undemocratic actions such as a military coup is a fruitless exercise.
First of all, vote buying does not have the effects anymore it had in the eighties, there is ample academic evidence for this available. Even Korn had to admit in the FCCT that PPP had spend less in the North than the other big parties. Every party engages in vote buying, so do the Democrats. Which should be clear to everyone that has observed rural elections over the last decades.
And the maybe more serious, but more difficult buying of MPs is also now evidently done by the Democrats. Or do you believe that Newin and his friends had now a miraculous transformation from Saulus to Paulus?
Thaksin’s promises were not “impossible-to-fill”. Even with the problems of implementation, they have still meant a considerable rise of standard of living for the main upcountry population.
This was a marked difference from previous governments, where little was promised, and nothing delivered. As i have observed for the last nearly two decades, and very much during the after crises Democrat administration, which can be seen as the catalyst of the rise of TRT.
Thaksin’s promises were in the eyes of his voters fulfilled, and that is why TRT/PPP was elected again, and again. Accusations that only vote buying and intimidation achieved that impressive result is pure exaggeration, as if the Northeast and the North is actually consisting mostly of secret Thaksin opponents that would prefer to vote for Democrats if they were not bought and intimidated.
Was Thaksin a representative of pure Democracy? Clearly not. But Democrats are neither. The difference though is, that TRT/PPP/Puah Thai is based on popular support, the basics of democracy, while the Democrat rise to power, especially the engineered parliamentary election of Abhisit is more than murky.
Instead of glancing over and supporting such machinations, it would be better to suggest the Democrats to actually campaign on a policy based platform, for a change, and gather popular support, which then may result in not having to rely on extra-constitutional powers and some of the most corrupt elements of Thai politics, as they always did.
Comparing TRT/PPP/Puah Thai to Algeria’s islamic fundamentalists is fishing for arguments, and hardly comparable to Thailand, only to serve articles of support for PAD. TRT is not a religious based cult of fanatics.
His vocal opposition though, the PAD, does resemble that characterization more (do you remember the episode of Sonthi, his trance, and the resulting implementation of women’s hygienic napkins in expelling evil Cambodian spirits that were accused to have been evoked by the man that now made Abhisit’s rise to power possible?).
And the now ruling Democrats are far too closely aligned with that PAD, several of its MPs being PAD members, and the appointed foreign minister being a very high profile PAD member.
Instead of going on about what Thaksin has done wrong (well known already), such an article about the current situation should also contain some of the current problems.
Defending PAD defender
I hardly feel he is a terrorist and may be actually a good choice. It seems everyone has forgotten the terrorist attacks carried out against the PAD by the UDD nightly.
That is Terrorism in my dictionary.
Ji Ungpakorn on Thailand’s second coup
For Frank: I am wondering why Gen Anupong was reported in the press a few days ago saying that the statute of limitations (or whatever it is) has passed on the case so it is no longer a legal worry for Abhisit.
Both Nantida and soi watcher miss the points of my post. As I said, Draft-dodging has a respectable history in some parts of the world at certain times. There was no defense of Abhisit by me. Comparing him with GW Bush was to show how the elite avoid the requirements and laws that are applied to the lower classes. My main point is that this issue will not go far and there are better issues to attack Abhisit on.
Defending PAD defender
I wasn’t at the event where Kasit spoke, but I have spoken to 2-3 Thai academics who were there, and they were shocked that Kasit spoke in this way when he was dues to be foreign minister. So Medhi is just making the usual defense from the elite – foreigners don’t understand. How many times will we hear this in the coming year?
Defending PAD defender
Dorm,
I just wonder what you mean by your comment?
I assumed that these guys have met MEDHI KRONGKAEW and, whatever they thought of him at the time they think that his current statements are interesting… to me, they appear irrational, trying to spin a story about Kasit and not really making sense…
is this not something of interest generally and constructive in the sense that when we read stories of actions by the Thai ONACC we can recognise that a somewhat finer rationality filter than normal should be used?
Personally I am already alert and concerned about most Thai institutions because there is so much manipulation and dishonourable activity behind their actions that means any so-called determinations or judgements need to be independently investigated before accepting anything at face value.
do you think my attitude is constructive, in terms of searching for the “truth” or perhaps destructive because my attitude indicates reduced “faith” in the operations of Thai institutions?
Defending PAD defender
Elite PAD apologist Medhi has in fact been a regular visitor to ANU. So, next time, please ask him a few hard questions. I know this type of Thai male phu yai only too well. On the surface, they are friendly when you nicely wai them and show your deference and admiration. But as soon as you question their competence, knowledge, and judgment, they can become very intolerant.
Defending PAD defender
Medhi’s comments are not fit for publishing and as an academic he should be ashamed of himself…People like him are using any excuse for excusing the unexcusable and undermining basic democratic principles; a country for the people by the people.
Ji Ungpakorn on Thailand’s second coup
Frank G Anderson copied the title from Francis Fukuyama’s “The End of History”. They both have the same objective. Listen, the World War II was over, Germany and Japan lost the war, move on, would you?
After reading his article, I must say his dirty trick is obsolete, he is too old for the new generation. It is pathetic to see someone writes about Thailand when he does not even know the current news about Abhisit Vejjajiva’s draft dodging.
Defending PAD defender
Is there another country in this region where one can comment in the knowledge that it might just lead to something constructive? ….. No. Blogging in this region is a displacement activity for those who haven’t yet quite conditioned themselves to the local notion that life is for shopping and conspicuous consumption. God knows where the notion of Eastern mysticism ever came from. I see a temple. I see another shopping op.
Defending PAD defender
Political polarization can not be solved by placing a terrorist as a foreign minister. Mr. Kasit Pirom does not respect the rule of law.
He was on the PAD’s stage and mobilized people to seize the Suwanaphum international airport. He said he had no regret. His wife attended the PAD rally daily. He explained that in fact he had lots of fun, he enjoyed good food, good music, while causing trouble to international passengers and damaging Thailand’s economic opportunity with illegal action.
This should not be the behavior of a foreign minister. Thailand deserves someone with better judgment. We must not reward terrorists.
Ji Ungpakorn on Thailand’s second coup
http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1631&Itemid=159
Ji Ungpakorn on Thailand’s second coup
Where’s all the proof about Abhisit’s draft dodging?
There is another way to avoid the draft as well – live abroad until past the age. Sort of like the Canada thing without intent to specifically escape the draft.
Update on the royal taboo
[…] New Mandala reader, Ralph Cramden, made some interesting comments on our recent post Update on the Royal Taboo: Alongside the various responses to the Economist, ranging from the bizarre (in the Nation) to […]
Ji Ungpakorn on Thailand’s second coup
Dishonest people are comfortable when they lie. The word honesty has no meaning to this type of person. Integrity is a universal norm regardless of the perspective one holds. It distinguishes right from wrong.
Ralph Kramden has intentionally misled the issue by comparing different contexts. The United States has a law allowing those who have conscientious objection to war to avoid serving in the military. In the case of George W Bush, his father was the CIA director at the time, so he was not allowed to be outside the U.S. Instead, George W had to serve in the National Guard military unit as a pilot.
In Thailand, Thai males go through a military training. If one does not want to be in the military, the reserve option is available by training only during weekends. Thailand was not in any war scenario during the time Abhisit Vejjajiva avoided military training. In Thailand, only female can avoid military training, Abhisit Vejjajiva chose this option instead, in short, a draft dodger Abhisit Vejjajiva.
In the new dawn of mainland Southeast Asia, the majority of people strive to bring progress, equality and liberty to better ourselves. We reject cockroaches!
Far from over
Pasuk and Baker put it in a nutshell. Democracy after all is not the end all and be all. It’s a means to an end, to a fairer and ethical society. Not surprisingly it’s always been open to abuse and rampant manipulation.
I agree with Jon about the rural-urban divide. Unless the issue is addressed, ‘big city bright lights’ will continue to attract and cause this inequitable skew that manifests itself in both rural and urban squalor with untapped human resources, underpaid and exploited labour, shanty towns and squatters. The dream of lifting us all to ‘middle-class’ comfort and not least intellectual political conciousness is after all the socialist dream.
Work that pays a reasonable income for everyone who wants to work, rural or urban, is what the boom-bust system with short term political goals and no proper long term national planning fails dismally to provide particularly in times of recession. This undermines the desperately needed consumption drive for the so called ‘wealth creators and job providers’ which only a responsible and not a cop-out state has the necessary political will and the wherewithal to rectify by ‘pump priming’ as Keynes once famously pointed out.
Ji Ungpakorn on Thailand’s second coup
Respectable history ? Michael Moore in his film Fahreinheit pointed out that sons of US senators also did draft dodging. So the authorities approached poor black families to be recruited as soldiers and sent to Iraq to die ! Certainly the sons of Thai rich families like the Vejajivas are scared of the rigors of the military life and prefer to enjoy life at Eton and Oxford. Abhisit’s priveleged life can be clearly seen at the way he held the broom during a recent clean-up of the Govt House after the PAD goons left.
Abhisit’s draft dodging is a bad example for Thai youths and in view of the coming Children’s Day in January, Abhisit should be ashamed to give the annual slogan to Thai children in his capacity as PM. One caller to the taxi radio station cynically suggested that the 2009 slogan for Children’s Day should be “nee taharn wan nee, pen nayok wan na” (If you can dodge military service now, you will become a prime minister in the future) !