Quote:…..in a thousand ways tried to cut him down to size.”
Thompson need to be more specific and what’s the evidences?
I found this article of Thompson a bit oversimplified and a bit optimistic.
The situation is far from”..Thailand will soon quiet down…” , on the contrary it will end up in a rather opposite direction.
Call me a pessimistic if you prefer to , but I’m a bit realistic too. Time will tell.
Well, Charles F., they are definitely nouveau riche. You’d call it new money I guess. The country is run by a kleptocracy – gangsters in cohoots with robber barons. Hatred is nurtured by them by deploying ehtnic troops in Burman heartlands and vice cersa all through the 60 year old civil war, and they call it the ‘union spirit’.
I doubt it will return to the days that were. This latest travesty had too greater international effect. There are other equally interesting countries now pulling in the ex-Thai traveller.
Perhaps this is an opportunity for Thailand to take stock and look a little inward and whilst improving the politics, try to cease the other rather shocking activities that it persists in carrying out. Protecting the human rights of the many disadvantaged would be a a step in the right direction. Maybe practicing a little of the Buddhist philosophy would help people find the compassion that is now so much lacking in the country.
With all due respect, the last paragraph of Professor Thompson’s article seems to express pure wishful thinking. The situation in Thailand is hardly so easy.
Look at the ridiculous headlines in the papers on Oct 8th.
Black October… or something like that.
I would not be surprised to learn the casualties on the PAD side were self inflicted.
Somehow, the local press glossed over the PAD, kidnapping the Reds, shooting at cops, running them down in trucks, throwing acid, pingpong bombs, slingshots, spears…an arsenal.
The PAD leaders are a bunch of cowards that hide behind women and children and then taunt the Police.
You are absolutely wrong by saying that authorities have not taken any action against Udon Lovers in the aftermath of the attack. Evidence was gathered from the video footage, culprits were visited in their homes, and charged. Last week i was in Udon, and spoke with several of them, who all had charges filed, and will have to defend themselves at court.
PAD has tempered with evidence, and for some unknown reasons was allowed to refuse police entry to crime scenes, both several of the bomb explosions, and the murder of one man that can clearly be attributed to PAD guards at their barricades on Oct. 30th or 31st.
Also the attack on the 5 youths on Nov 2nd, which left one with a bullet injury in his shoulder, was not possible to be properly investigated for the same reasons.
PAD guards that were arrested with weapons were bailed out the same day, including the 6 that have hijacked a public bus, carried one illegal shotgun + ammo, one ping pong bomb, and several machetes.
One Srivichai warrior that was arrested in a sting by Din Daeng police with one gun and one Uzi stolen from a special branch police station in Government House was also bailed out.
Additionally – PAD carried weapons openly after the Udon attack, but has previously stashed weapons as well.
And lets not forget – the first person that was murdered was a Red Shirt, he was beaten to death by PAD guards during the clashes at Sept. 2nd.
I just read the Manager Daily website and the PAD said that if the new government is not to their liking they will come out again, this time as many as 500,000 people! So this is not over yet, and Thompson’s idea that Thailand will be back to its prosperous way seems to be premature. However, I doubt that they could gather as many as a tenth of what they claim, considering that more and more people know their insides.
I wonder what they would be doing if Thaksin is no longer in the picture. To keep their momentum and power going the PAD needs Thaksin. They are so dependent on him….
What is interesting about the Udon example is that LDohrs and other PAD supporters seem to have been surprised by the violence on the other side. One of the biggest surprises of recent months in fact has been that the reaction to PAD has not been more violent. You have a PAD leader (Sonthi L) openly insulting the intelligence of rural people day in, day out on his radio and TV stations – messages that are being taken in, day in, day out by “engaged” representatives of that rural mass (taxi drivers, vendors, etc.). Then you hold a rally in the midst of the region with the biggest concentration of the people you have been insulting, and you are surprised you are not greeted with flowers?
LDohrs’ friend with the motorcycle helmet and golf club may very well have been a reasonable, right-thinking individual who believed he was joining a non-violent movement against corruption. And there is no doubt that many of the red-shirts, especially those who committed violence against the PAD, are paid thugs. But the naivete and self-righteousness of the middle-class PAD followers sometimes beggars belief. They truly have no idea how they are viewed by people in the North and Northeast. In their unique world view, opponents are simply either brainwashed or paid by Thaksin.
We should again note the date of the rally in question – July 24. This was after Sonthi L had been denigrating the rural population for months, and after PAD leaders had openly called for measures that would restrict the voting rights of the majority of the Thai population. This was after PAD leaders had used the most crude nationalism to whip up a long-dormant conflict with Cambodia. This was after PAD had used slander and threats of violence against its Thai critics (including friends of mine). And this was long after it was very clear who the primary backers of this movement were.
No doubt by late July there were many right-thinking people still attending PAD rallies. But by this point anyone who was both right-thinking and reasonable should have been avoiding PAD like the plague.
It seems as is one has indeed spent time with the rural people of Thailand, one would have known Newin nor Thaksin ever had their interests at heart. As to the little people analogy, is that an unintentional condescension? From my personal experience living in rural Buriram (Newin’s turf), some years ago and comparing to now, the little people have been kept little by the likes of Newin.
The Newin group’s reversal of alliances is a betrayal of Thaksin, but it does not seem at this stage to be a betrayal of the interests of the little people of rural Thailand. The Newin group appear to have extracted a high price from the Democrats, who seem to have promised them that the old TRT policies that brought advancement to rural Thailand will remain in place. The old hierarchy were prepared to tear the country apart in a squabble over personalities, but perhaps they will accept the policies that democracy has brought. If the little people really have won, I hope they will prefer not to continue the dispute over personalities, and if necessary, allow their hero to fade into history.
I think the main objective of the ‘hidden power’ is not so much to install Abhisit and the Democrats in Govt House as to eliminate Thaksin once and for all from politics. It’s only that the Democrats present the only viable alternative. Let’s see how the Democrat-led government fare in this volatile situation.
What seems to be emerging is that the fight is becoming one between genuine democracy and the force struggling to maintain the status quo. It certainly started with the more personal conflict, but now it has become broader and involves more abstract principles. The Democrats will only destroy themselves if they are aligned too much with the other side and are too dependent on them.
I see this as a momentous historical change in Thailand. Thaksin of course has a big role to play in this, but he is only a character in the show, and now the show does not revolve around him any more. I have overheard a lot of people in the markets talk with a lot of interest and concern about politics. They are increasingly taking the matter into their own hands, realizing that power really belongs to them. We have to take a long term perspective. Note these events in 2005-2008 and come back again in five or six years.
In George Orwell’s ‘Animal House’ he writes about some animals being more equal than others. I believe that that’s what you have here.
I was reading an article recently wherein ‘low land’ Burmese looked down their noses at the ones who lived in the hills. Pretty much like Americans referring to southerners as rednecks or low rent trailer trash.
You have Buddhist Karens that hate Christian Karens. And alot of Karens dislike Arakans. And ’round and ’round we go.
And the generals hate everyone. Probably even each other.
Insofar as calling the country Myanmar or Burma, most foreigners call the country Burma. I suppose it’s a way of thumbing their collective noses at the generals. I use the term ‘Burma’.
Oh, and the generals are low rent trailer trash, even though they have probably never seen a trailer, much less lived in one.
Myanma is the older and literary terminology of the dominant group in Burma. Not surprisinglythe name change fails to satisfy some if not all minorities. I maintain that it doesn’t matter one jot so long as all are treated fairly which sadly is not the case even for the majority group.
Parliamentary records –
Does anyone know of any online voter resource in Thailand similar in any fashion to that in the US, et. al where senators and MPs, etc., are indicated with full bio information and voting records?
Thanks.
Frank
“Timothy, the PAD supporters you cite are seeking to eliminate democracy. Their vigorous actions to achieve this goal do not make sense if you are correct, for how can democracy be eliminated if it does not exist in the first place?”
Another wide pen. PAD supporters seeking to eliminate democracy? Is there no limit to nonsense? I am not sure how well-traveled the commentator is in Thai circles, especially media, elite, commercial, diplomatic and academic, but once you get a taste of them all, the problem is a bit more complicated than judging it to be the fault of a group that has finally arrived at the definition of the problem but is getting little recognition or comprehension from even well-educated expats.
What were the PAD doing in Udon Thani? Was this part of their whip-up-a-nationalist-war-with-Cambodia period? I’m not trying to justify the violent attack against them, btw. Just recall the context.
I see an album in this, Andrew. There’s a carol for everyone…
… for Sondhi and Chamlong:
“O Suvan’bhumi, O Suvan’bhumi, How are thy planes so dormant! Not only in high season time, But specially when the airport’s mine…”
… for the PAD toughs:
“O come, all ye faithful, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to beat the cops again; Come and behold them, Run from their vehicles; O come, let us assault them, O come, let us assault them…”
… and the whole family:
“O star of wonder, star of light, Star with Royal Beauty bright… King forever, ceasing never, Over us all to reign.” (No changes to that one)
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“Thailand will soon quiet down…”
Quote:…..in a thousand ways tried to cut him down to size.”
Thompson need to be more specific and what’s the evidences?
I found this article of Thompson a bit oversimplified and a bit optimistic.
The situation is far from”..Thailand will soon quiet down…” , on the contrary it will end up in a rather opposite direction.
Call me a pessimistic if you prefer to , but I’m a bit realistic too. Time will tell.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Well, Charles F., they are definitely nouveau riche. You’d call it new money I guess. The country is run by a kleptocracy – gangsters in cohoots with robber barons. Hatred is nurtured by them by deploying ehtnic troops in Burman heartlands and vice cersa all through the 60 year old civil war, and they call it the ‘union spirit’.
“Thailand will soon quiet down…”
I doubt it will return to the days that were. This latest travesty had too greater international effect. There are other equally interesting countries now pulling in the ex-Thai traveller.
Perhaps this is an opportunity for Thailand to take stock and look a little inward and whilst improving the politics, try to cease the other rather shocking activities that it persists in carrying out. Protecting the human rights of the many disadvantaged would be a a step in the right direction. Maybe practicing a little of the Buddhist philosophy would help people find the compassion that is now so much lacking in the country.
“Thailand will soon quiet down…”
With all due respect, the last paragraph of Professor Thompson’s article seems to express pure wishful thinking. The situation in Thailand is hardly so easy.
Violence and politics
The PAD went looking to get a bloody nose.
Look at the ridiculous headlines in the papers on Oct 8th.
Black October… or something like that.
I would not be surprised to learn the casualties on the PAD side were self inflicted.
Somehow, the local press glossed over the PAD, kidnapping the Reds, shooting at cops, running them down in trucks, throwing acid, pingpong bombs, slingshots, spears…an arsenal.
The PAD leaders are a bunch of cowards that hide behind women and children and then taunt the Police.
Thaksin will be back.
Violence and politics
“LDohrs”:
You are absolutely wrong by saying that authorities have not taken any action against Udon Lovers in the aftermath of the attack. Evidence was gathered from the video footage, culprits were visited in their homes, and charged. Last week i was in Udon, and spoke with several of them, who all had charges filed, and will have to defend themselves at court.
PAD has tempered with evidence, and for some unknown reasons was allowed to refuse police entry to crime scenes, both several of the bomb explosions, and the murder of one man that can clearly be attributed to PAD guards at their barricades on Oct. 30th or 31st.
Also the attack on the 5 youths on Nov 2nd, which left one with a bullet injury in his shoulder, was not possible to be properly investigated for the same reasons.
PAD guards that were arrested with weapons were bailed out the same day, including the 6 that have hijacked a public bus, carried one illegal shotgun + ammo, one ping pong bomb, and several machetes.
One Srivichai warrior that was arrested in a sting by Din Daeng police with one gun and one Uzi stolen from a special branch police station in Government House was also bailed out.
Additionally – PAD carried weapons openly after the Udon attack, but has previously stashed weapons as well.
And lets not forget – the first person that was murdered was a Red Shirt, he was beaten to death by PAD guards during the clashes at Sept. 2nd.
“Thailand will soon quiet down…”
I just read the Manager Daily website and the PAD said that if the new government is not to their liking they will come out again, this time as many as 500,000 people! So this is not over yet, and Thompson’s idea that Thailand will be back to its prosperous way seems to be premature. However, I doubt that they could gather as many as a tenth of what they claim, considering that more and more people know their insides.
I wonder what they would be doing if Thaksin is no longer in the picture. To keep their momentum and power going the PAD needs Thaksin. They are so dependent on him….
Violence and politics
What is interesting about the Udon example is that LDohrs and other PAD supporters seem to have been surprised by the violence on the other side. One of the biggest surprises of recent months in fact has been that the reaction to PAD has not been more violent. You have a PAD leader (Sonthi L) openly insulting the intelligence of rural people day in, day out on his radio and TV stations – messages that are being taken in, day in, day out by “engaged” representatives of that rural mass (taxi drivers, vendors, etc.). Then you hold a rally in the midst of the region with the biggest concentration of the people you have been insulting, and you are surprised you are not greeted with flowers?
LDohrs’ friend with the motorcycle helmet and golf club may very well have been a reasonable, right-thinking individual who believed he was joining a non-violent movement against corruption. And there is no doubt that many of the red-shirts, especially those who committed violence against the PAD, are paid thugs. But the naivete and self-righteousness of the middle-class PAD followers sometimes beggars belief. They truly have no idea how they are viewed by people in the North and Northeast. In their unique world view, opponents are simply either brainwashed or paid by Thaksin.
We should again note the date of the rally in question – July 24. This was after Sonthi L had been denigrating the rural population for months, and after PAD leaders had openly called for measures that would restrict the voting rights of the majority of the Thai population. This was after PAD leaders had used the most crude nationalism to whip up a long-dormant conflict with Cambodia. This was after PAD had used slander and threats of violence against its Thai critics (including friends of mine). And this was long after it was very clear who the primary backers of this movement were.
No doubt by late July there were many right-thinking people still attending PAD rallies. But by this point anyone who was both right-thinking and reasonable should have been avoiding PAD like the plague.
Dishonourable but parliamentary
It seems as is one has indeed spent time with the rural people of Thailand, one would have known Newin nor Thaksin ever had their interests at heart. As to the little people analogy, is that an unintentional condescension? From my personal experience living in rural Buriram (Newin’s turf), some years ago and comparing to now, the little people have been kept little by the likes of Newin.
Dishonourable but parliamentary
The Newin group’s reversal of alliances is a betrayal of Thaksin, but it does not seem at this stage to be a betrayal of the interests of the little people of rural Thailand. The Newin group appear to have extracted a high price from the Democrats, who seem to have promised them that the old TRT policies that brought advancement to rural Thailand will remain in place. The old hierarchy were prepared to tear the country apart in a squabble over personalities, but perhaps they will accept the policies that democracy has brought. If the little people really have won, I hope they will prefer not to continue the dispute over personalities, and if necessary, allow their hero to fade into history.
Who is Abhisit’s true love?
Very nicely done, Andrew!
I think the main objective of the ‘hidden power’ is not so much to install Abhisit and the Democrats in Govt House as to eliminate Thaksin once and for all from politics. It’s only that the Democrats present the only viable alternative. Let’s see how the Democrat-led government fare in this volatile situation.
What seems to be emerging is that the fight is becoming one between genuine democracy and the force struggling to maintain the status quo. It certainly started with the more personal conflict, but now it has become broader and involves more abstract principles. The Democrats will only destroy themselves if they are aligned too much with the other side and are too dependent on them.
I see this as a momentous historical change in Thailand. Thaksin of course has a big role to play in this, but he is only a character in the show, and now the show does not revolve around him any more. I have overheard a lot of people in the markets talk with a lot of interest and concern about politics. They are increasingly taking the matter into their own hands, realizing that power really belongs to them. We have to take a long term perspective. Note these events in 2005-2008 and come back again in five or six years.
Who is Abhisit’s true love?
Who is Abhisit’s true love? Abhisit’s true love is Abhisit!
Volunteering to fight in Burma
In George Orwell’s ‘Animal House’ he writes about some animals being more equal than others. I believe that that’s what you have here.
I was reading an article recently wherein ‘low land’ Burmese looked down their noses at the ones who lived in the hills. Pretty much like Americans referring to southerners as rednecks or low rent trailer trash.
You have Buddhist Karens that hate Christian Karens. And alot of Karens dislike Arakans. And ’round and ’round we go.
And the generals hate everyone. Probably even each other.
Insofar as calling the country Myanmar or Burma, most foreigners call the country Burma. I suppose it’s a way of thumbing their collective noses at the generals. I use the term ‘Burma’.
Oh, and the generals are low rent trailer trash, even though they have probably never seen a trailer, much less lived in one.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Myanma is the older and literary terminology of the dominant group in Burma. Not surprisinglythe name change fails to satisfy some if not all minorities. I maintain that it doesn’t matter one jot so long as all are treated fairly which sadly is not the case even for the majority group.
Dishonourable but parliamentary
Parliamentary records –
Does anyone know of any online voter resource in Thailand similar in any fashion to that in the US, et. al where senators and MPs, etc., are indicated with full bio information and voting records?
Thanks.
Frank
Does Thailand need democracy?
“Timothy, the PAD supporters you cite are seeking to eliminate democracy. Their vigorous actions to achieve this goal do not make sense if you are correct, for how can democracy be eliminated if it does not exist in the first place?”
Another wide pen. PAD supporters seeking to eliminate democracy? Is there no limit to nonsense? I am not sure how well-traveled the commentator is in Thai circles, especially media, elite, commercial, diplomatic and academic, but once you get a taste of them all, the problem is a bit more complicated than judging it to be the fault of a group that has finally arrived at the definition of the problem but is getting little recognition or comprehension from even well-educated expats.
Violence and politics
What were the PAD doing in Udon Thani? Was this part of their whip-up-a-nationalist-war-with-Cambodia period? I’m not trying to justify the violent attack against them, btw. Just recall the context.
End of the royal taboo?
Did you pick up the editorial and report in The Economist last week, very critical of the King’s role, although strangely unspecific as to exactly what they were criticising, http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12724832 and http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12724800
Who is Abhisit’s true love?
I see an album in this, Andrew. There’s a carol for everyone…
… for Sondhi and Chamlong:
“O Suvan’bhumi, O Suvan’bhumi, How are thy planes so dormant! Not only in high season time, But specially when the airport’s mine…”
… for the PAD toughs:
“O come, all ye faithful, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to beat the cops again; Come and behold them, Run from their vehicles; O come, let us assault them, O come, let us assault them…”
… and the whole family:
“O star of wonder, star of light, Star with Royal Beauty bright… King forever, ceasing never, Over us all to reign.” (No changes to that one)
Who is Abhisit’s true love?
Ha ha. This is hilarious. And it can be sung (well, kind of).
I like it. Thank you.