I think we all hope for peace and goodwill.
That people’s lives might become easier through our efforts would be a good thing.
If people don’t wish for peace then they are evil.
Dan
While I won’t begin to debate the dubious assertion that Thailand has “successfully applied that concept to assimilate or unify all ethnic races under the dominant race,” there are some important differences to note with regards to Burma/Myanmar.
Phibul Songkhram changed the name Siam to Thailand on June 23rd 1939 with the claim that the “government deems it appropriate following the new fashion to change the name of our country to fit the race.” Critics like Ajahn Sulak, Charnvit Kasetsiri and others say that this terminology is not only historically inaccurate but also marginalises indigenous ethnic, linguistic and religious minority groups and should therefore be changed back to the more inclusive ‘Siam’.
The more recent (June 18th 1989) change of the official English version of the country name Burma to Myanmar was arguably just bringing the English into line with convention in Burmese language, rather than an actual change in the country’s name. (Even Burmese opposition groups that have the word in their names almost all use Myanma when written in Burmese yet use Burma when written in English) However, ex-PM Khin Nyunt argued for a linguistic change in Burmese language convention as well. He said that Myanma should be used in reference to the country and all its citizens and Bamar should be use in reference to the most populous ethnic group.
Taken on face value, it would seem that Khin Nyunt’s proposition is quite the opposite of Phibul’s and far more inclusive of the country’s diversity. In practice, official use of Myanma has not been so inclusive and some ethnic opposition groups argue in criticism that Myanma has also historically been just a label for the majority ethnic group rather than for the country. But I don’t believe that this opposition to the Burmese-language usage of the term Myanma is particularly widespread, even among non-ethnic Burmans.
I think we’re all missing the main point here. Yes, all of this is distasteful (or dishonourable) to say the very least, and could be easily be characterized as a “coup by other means.” However, should we not credit those who are orchestrating this silent/judicial/elite-conspiracy coup for recognizing the need to at least pay lip service to democratic norms? Surely the selection of Parliamentary tactics is preferable to an outright military takeover with tanks in the streets again. Does this not represent a modicum of progress? This would seem to be a necessary first step if we hope to eventually look forward to a time when we will see political solutions with even less interference as the various invisible and visible hands start to see the merit of a separation of powers.
Racial divide between Burmans and Karens are very real in some parts of Burma like war-torn rural regions by the Thai border, but not so visible in other parts of Burma like now peaceful Delta and the Karen townships in Rangoon like Insein and Thamine. My personal experience is that racial tension is generated solely by the still raging civil war between the Army and KNU.
During the early seventies, while KNDO was still strong and active in the Delta the racial tension was incredibly extreme as all the Burmese towns and villages were armed to counter the KNDO’s rising influence in the region.
One of my older cousins was a minor leader of our town’s militia actively involve in the fighting the KNDO. He fell in love with a Buddhist Karen girl from a Karen village and eloped with her since both families didn’t approve of their relationship.
The marriage didn’t work out for obvious reasons and finally he committed suicide. He left the pregnant wife, and a beautiful daughter was born later and she is well loved by our clan and the whole town. She is a now a business woman prospering in our little town. Whenever I teasingly asked her which race are you, Karen or Burmese, she always replied with a lovely smile, both. I didn’t dare to guess what her answer would be if that awful racial war was still raging in our region.
But sad situations like that are now things of the past as the region is peaceful now.
The novel idea of every native citizen of Burma is Burmese is an appealing concept as many countries like Thailand has successfully applied that concept to assimilate or unify all the ethnic races under the dominant race and identify every citizen as Thais.
Maybe that will be the eventuality in Burma too, once the civil war is over?
In the chapter, “Developing Democratic Elections Under a New Constitution in Thailand,” we point out that only 70 % of respondents could formulate a clear concept of the meaning of democracy in an open-ended question. Among those who offered a definition, however, 38.2% said “freedom” or referred to “civil liberties.” 15.2% said “political equality;” 11.9 “Individualism;” 7.7 said “Equality, Justice, or Fraternity;” 7.2 said “Participation and Citizen Empowerment.” Less than 1% said “Good Governance” or a related term. In the 2006 survey, we also offered a fixed choice response. On this question there was a higher response rate, but the responses were very similar. In general, we find consistently that Thais have views of democracy very similar to residents of European and American countries. By the way, these are true probability samples of the population, face-to-face surveys conducted in the language of the the respondent’s home (including dialects).
If the westerners who are assisting the Karens and other Burmese people were to leave tomorrow, the killings and rapes by the junta would still occur. There would just be fewer people to witness and report it.
Your post speaks volumes about you. You try to divide the christian Karens against the Buddhist Karens, the same tactic being practiced by the SPDC. You must have a copy of their playbook, huh?
Insofar as the Karens supporting the British during WWII, that’s true. And it was the right thing to do. The Japanese fully intended to enslave all of Asia, and had to be stopped.
One day the people will be out from under the boot of the SPDC. At that time they will hopefully sit down together and create a successful country with peace and justice for all, not just a select few.
I will continue to support the KNU/KNLA in their fight against the SPDC and their slave troops, the DKBA.
FREEDOM FIGHTERS?
You stupid Westerners meedling in the affairs of Burma. How stupid can you get? Are you licking the backsides of the 19th century english colonialists who colonised Burma and ruled by their infamous tactic of divide-and-rule? Burma is a unitary state and all ethnic groups are Burmese. What you are all doing is continuing the evil of the dead 19th century colonisers; get real! Stop meddling in the affairs of Burma. Because of people like you Burmese people, meaning everyone who is native citizen of Burma, have to suffer so much. The tiny minority Karens who sucked up to the English are nothing but traitors. DKBO is the legitimate party; they are Buddhist and Burmese.
Now what you can do is to study Burmese history objectively and try to understand how people like you are real enemies of all Burma.
NOW GET LOST! GO BACK TO YOUR PATHETIC INSIGNIFICANT LIFE. STOP STRUING TO AMKE A NAME FOR YOURSELF AT THE EXPENSE OF BURMESE PEOLPE.
Yes, there are different ways of defining democracy, but the minimum qualification is that governments are elected by the people. An authoritarian society may be perfectly benevolent, but, however “liberal,” “transparent,” or “uncorrupt,” it is not a democracy. Thais may not want mass democracy, but to call unelected governments “democratic” is absurd. Much of the debate about what is happening in Thailand argues that non-Thai concepts of democracy are not appropriate for Thailand. That may be true. My objection is to calling autocratic forms of government a “democracy.”
Just wondering what the pundits here think about Democrats in bed with Newin. Just like Suwat and the TRT/Chart debacle.
What a let-down for Thailand’s political AND social future. Downhill from here on…
I join my Thai wife in Korat in denouncing Democrats for the Newin decision. Better to be opposition that in bed with a snake. This is just like what Suwat did with Chart Pattana combining with TRT.
Chang Noi: But it was only a departure if you count from about 1978. (Or maybe even from the mid-1980s, after the Thai army battles with the CPT were over.) If you go back further, you get to 1976, when — like this year — some of the goons behind the civilian-on-civilian violence had military or police backgrounds and enjoyed police/military support.
But of course, maybe that is your point: Thailand hadn’t faced that kind of violence since 1976, the country’s “Year of living dangerously”. And of course, what was the underlying tension of 1976?
Ldohrs said:
My own observations at Makhawan in late June/early July were that there were modest levels of security, similar to going to a typical rock show.
Sounds like you must have been near the stage at the free Stones concert at Altamont back in ’69. Funny, you don’t look that old :-7
Perhaps “subtle coup” is apt in this case. It seems these days the green party only have to drop the word in the right place to achieve the same effect as tanks on the street.
Still, they are not over the line yet.
In fact, in order to understand this very long change of government from Thaksin to the Democrats, one might want to start with Chirmsak Pinthong’s “Ru than Thaksin” books, the first of which appeared, if I am not mistaken, in April 2004. Even earlier, Chirmsak had written a small book about himself, in which he stated that he did not trust Thaksin, because he had not seen him anywhere in politics during the momentous events of 1973, 1976, and 1992. Instead, Thaksin had lobbied people involved in the political system to further his personal business interests. Chermsak and phuak had gained substantial hope by misinterpreting Abhirak’s win in the Bangkok governor election at the end of 2004, only to fall back into a desperate mood after their fellow countrymen decidedly rejected their view of Thaksin in the election of February 2005. But they did not give up. Chermsak had joined Sondhi at Lumpini Park already, and later became one of his formost ideologues. Now, he and his friends can celebrate their long-faught “victory.” That is, it has taken these forces about 4 1/2 years to achieve their goal of toppling the “Thaksin system.”
Today, I listened to the taxi drivers’ community radion station on Vibhavadee road. A caller remarked that, from now on, we will have a “nominee government of the PAD.”
It’s nice to see that our vietnamese friends don’t loose their north… I mean their chinese model.
😉
And more seriously, using the leverage of asian culture, they eventually understood that the best and most efficient way for censorship… was of course self-censorship.
This “corridor” is nothing but a reincarnation of the “social group”. You are inside. Or outside of it. And for the sake of the very survival of the group, the group will take care of each of its members…
For once, everybody seems to be in loose agreement on the facts of the situation, and it appears to be more a matter of how to interpret them. The debate seems to be: who upped the ante?
Relatedly, Ldohrs mentions the videos from Udon, showing easily identifiable individuals beating, stomping and kicking people who were already semi-conscious or unconscious on the ground.
That description captures just as accurately what PAD guards did to DAAD supporters on Sept. 2. (Well, maybe not an exact parallel — some PAD guards were not “easily identifiable” because they wore balaclavas and bandannas to hide their faces.)
In fact _ little-acknowledged fact _ a DAAD supporter was beaten to death in that incident.
Would that constitute justified “payback” for the Udon incident? Or perhaps it is just a realpolitik PAD approach to defending themselves — beat the other fellows so savagely that they won’t come back?
(I’ll acknowledge that the DAAD was marching to confront the PAD. You can use the word “attack” if you like, though contrary to the overheated accounts in Thai media, it looked to me _ from channel-surfing the footage all that night _ that there was a marked disinterest on the DAAD’s part in approaching the PAD lines too closely. Staying at a distance to throw bottles and other objects seemed to be the main action, until the PAD launched its “counterattack.”)
(Re: that night, also recall that it came a few days after some not particularly nasty street confrontations between police and PAD supporters that saw howls of police brutality come from some elements of the press and civil society, some of whom called on police to vacate the area around the occupied Government House. The PAD had also pushed out a contingent of police who had been encamped inside the compound. I bring these points up because I feel they show the claim of the PAD and sympathizers (not Ldohrs) that police made themselves scarce that night to allow a DAAD attack somewhat hypocritical.)
I realize that these comments stray somewhat from the larger point raised by Chang Noi and Ldohrs, but I think it is important to chip away at what until very recently was the (shoddy and ill-informed) conventional wisdom so that a full and robust narrative is out there.
The truth is that Thailand has for a long time been in a state of transition between a highly stratified society, in which the Puuyai have more rights than ordinary people; and a democracy where all citizens have equal rights.
The courts hand down judgements which reflect this transition. The judgements purport to be based on a system of equal rights, but are in fact designed to support the old stratified system. It is the job of judges to devise the necessary doublespeak to paper over the contradictions.
The universities purport to be spreading the values of the (European)Enlightenment, but teach, with the appropriate degree of subtlety, that nonsense and lies uttered by a Puuyai are to be valued more than the logical and truthful propositions of someone of lower status.
Progress towards democracy, and moral and intellectual advancement go hand-in-hand.
Bangkok Post has a very interesting report of how a ‘secret plan’ called ‘Operation 20 October’ had been hatched by Suthep since late October to get Nevin and Banharn to switch side. See: http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/topstories.php?id=135279
Timothy, the PAD supporters you cite are seeking to eliminate democracy.
Their vigorous actions to achieve this goal do not make sense if you are correct, for how can democracy be eliminated if it does not exist in the first place?
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Who is Abhisit’s true love?
Christmas is Coming!
The Geese are getting fat!
Please put your all your wages in the ex-cop beggar’s hat!
Volunteering to fight in Burma
I think we all hope for peace and goodwill.
That people’s lives might become easier through our efforts would be a good thing.
If people don’t wish for peace then they are evil.
Dan
Volunteering to fight in Burma
While I won’t begin to debate the dubious assertion that Thailand has “successfully applied that concept to assimilate or unify all ethnic races under the dominant race,” there are some important differences to note with regards to Burma/Myanmar.
Phibul Songkhram changed the name Siam to Thailand on June 23rd 1939 with the claim that the “government deems it appropriate following the new fashion to change the name of our country to fit the race.” Critics like Ajahn Sulak, Charnvit Kasetsiri and others say that this terminology is not only historically inaccurate but also marginalises indigenous ethnic, linguistic and religious minority groups and should therefore be changed back to the more inclusive ‘Siam’.
The more recent (June 18th 1989) change of the official English version of the country name Burma to Myanmar was arguably just bringing the English into line with convention in Burmese language, rather than an actual change in the country’s name. (Even Burmese opposition groups that have the word in their names almost all use Myanma when written in Burmese yet use Burma when written in English) However, ex-PM Khin Nyunt argued for a linguistic change in Burmese language convention as well. He said that Myanma should be used in reference to the country and all its citizens and Bamar should be use in reference to the most populous ethnic group.
Taken on face value, it would seem that Khin Nyunt’s proposition is quite the opposite of Phibul’s and far more inclusive of the country’s diversity. In practice, official use of Myanma has not been so inclusive and some ethnic opposition groups argue in criticism that Myanma has also historically been just a label for the majority ethnic group rather than for the country. But I don’t believe that this opposition to the Burmese-language usage of the term Myanma is particularly widespread, even among non-ethnic Burmans.
Dishonourable but parliamentary
I think we’re all missing the main point here. Yes, all of this is distasteful (or dishonourable) to say the very least, and could be easily be characterized as a “coup by other means.” However, should we not credit those who are orchestrating this silent/judicial/elite-conspiracy coup for recognizing the need to at least pay lip service to democratic norms? Surely the selection of Parliamentary tactics is preferable to an outright military takeover with tanks in the streets again. Does this not represent a modicum of progress? This would seem to be a necessary first step if we hope to eventually look forward to a time when we will see political solutions with even less interference as the various invisible and visible hands start to see the merit of a separation of powers.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Racial divide between Burmans and Karens are very real in some parts of Burma like war-torn rural regions by the Thai border, but not so visible in other parts of Burma like now peaceful Delta and the Karen townships in Rangoon like Insein and Thamine. My personal experience is that racial tension is generated solely by the still raging civil war between the Army and KNU.
During the early seventies, while KNDO was still strong and active in the Delta the racial tension was incredibly extreme as all the Burmese towns and villages were armed to counter the KNDO’s rising influence in the region.
One of my older cousins was a minor leader of our town’s militia actively involve in the fighting the KNDO. He fell in love with a Buddhist Karen girl from a Karen village and eloped with her since both families didn’t approve of their relationship.
The marriage didn’t work out for obvious reasons and finally he committed suicide. He left the pregnant wife, and a beautiful daughter was born later and she is well loved by our clan and the whole town. She is a now a business woman prospering in our little town. Whenever I teasingly asked her which race are you, Karen or Burmese, she always replied with a lovely smile, both. I didn’t dare to guess what her answer would be if that awful racial war was still raging in our region.
But sad situations like that are now things of the past as the region is peaceful now.
The novel idea of every native citizen of Burma is Burmese is an appealing concept as many countries like Thailand has successfully applied that concept to assimilate or unify all the ethnic races under the dominant race and identify every citizen as Thais.
Maybe that will be the eventuality in Burma too, once the civil war is over?
Is Thai democracy really so bad?
In the chapter, “Developing Democratic Elections Under a New Constitution in Thailand,” we point out that only 70 % of respondents could formulate a clear concept of the meaning of democracy in an open-ended question. Among those who offered a definition, however, 38.2% said “freedom” or referred to “civil liberties.” 15.2% said “political equality;” 11.9 “Individualism;” 7.7 said “Equality, Justice, or Fraternity;” 7.2 said “Participation and Citizen Empowerment.” Less than 1% said “Good Governance” or a related term. In the 2006 survey, we also offered a fixed choice response. On this question there was a higher response rate, but the responses were very similar. In general, we find consistently that Thais have views of democracy very similar to residents of European and American countries. By the way, these are true probability samples of the population, face-to-face surveys conducted in the language of the the respondent’s home (including dialects).
Volunteering to fight in Burma
If the westerners who are assisting the Karens and other Burmese people were to leave tomorrow, the killings and rapes by the junta would still occur. There would just be fewer people to witness and report it.
Your post speaks volumes about you. You try to divide the christian Karens against the Buddhist Karens, the same tactic being practiced by the SPDC. You must have a copy of their playbook, huh?
Insofar as the Karens supporting the British during WWII, that’s true. And it was the right thing to do. The Japanese fully intended to enslave all of Asia, and had to be stopped.
One day the people will be out from under the boot of the SPDC. At that time they will hopefully sit down together and create a successful country with peace and justice for all, not just a select few.
I will continue to support the KNU/KNLA in their fight against the SPDC and their slave troops, the DKBA.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
FREEDOM FIGHTERS?
You stupid Westerners meedling in the affairs of Burma. How stupid can you get? Are you licking the backsides of the 19th century english colonialists who colonised Burma and ruled by their infamous tactic of divide-and-rule? Burma is a unitary state and all ethnic groups are Burmese. What you are all doing is continuing the evil of the dead 19th century colonisers; get real! Stop meddling in the affairs of Burma. Because of people like you Burmese people, meaning everyone who is native citizen of Burma, have to suffer so much. The tiny minority Karens who sucked up to the English are nothing but traitors. DKBO is the legitimate party; they are Buddhist and Burmese.
Now what you can do is to study Burmese history objectively and try to understand how people like you are real enemies of all Burma.
NOW GET LOST! GO BACK TO YOUR PATHETIC INSIGNIFICANT LIFE. STOP STRUING TO AMKE A NAME FOR YOURSELF AT THE EXPENSE OF BURMESE PEOLPE.
Is Thai democracy really so bad?
Yes, there are different ways of defining democracy, but the minimum qualification is that governments are elected by the people. An authoritarian society may be perfectly benevolent, but, however “liberal,” “transparent,” or “uncorrupt,” it is not a democracy. Thais may not want mass democracy, but to call unelected governments “democratic” is absurd. Much of the debate about what is happening in Thailand argues that non-Thai concepts of democracy are not appropriate for Thailand. That may be true. My objection is to calling autocratic forms of government a “democracy.”
Constituencies up for grabs
Just wondering what the pundits here think about Democrats in bed with Newin. Just like Suwat and the TRT/Chart debacle.
What a let-down for Thailand’s political AND social future. Downhill from here on…
Constituencies up for grabs
I join my Thai wife in Korat in denouncing Democrats for the Newin decision. Better to be opposition that in bed with a snake. This is just like what Suwat did with Chart Pattana combining with TRT.
Violence and politics
Chang Noi: But it was only a departure if you count from about 1978. (Or maybe even from the mid-1980s, after the Thai army battles with the CPT were over.) If you go back further, you get to 1976, when — like this year — some of the goons behind the civilian-on-civilian violence had military or police backgrounds and enjoyed police/military support.
But of course, maybe that is your point: Thailand hadn’t faced that kind of violence since 1976, the country’s “Year of living dangerously”. And of course, what was the underlying tension of 1976?
Violence and politics
Ldohrs said:
My own observations at Makhawan in late June/early July were that there were modest levels of security, similar to going to a typical rock show.
Sounds like you must have been near the stage at the free Stones concert at Altamont back in ’69. Funny, you don’t look that old :-7
Dishonourable but parliamentary
Perhaps “subtle coup” is apt in this case. It seems these days the green party only have to drop the word in the right place to achieve the same effect as tanks on the street.
Still, they are not over the line yet.
Dishonourable but parliamentary
In fact, in order to understand this very long change of government from Thaksin to the Democrats, one might want to start with Chirmsak Pinthong’s “Ru than Thaksin” books, the first of which appeared, if I am not mistaken, in April 2004. Even earlier, Chirmsak had written a small book about himself, in which he stated that he did not trust Thaksin, because he had not seen him anywhere in politics during the momentous events of 1973, 1976, and 1992. Instead, Thaksin had lobbied people involved in the political system to further his personal business interests. Chermsak and phuak had gained substantial hope by misinterpreting Abhirak’s win in the Bangkok governor election at the end of 2004, only to fall back into a desperate mood after their fellow countrymen decidedly rejected their view of Thaksin in the election of February 2005. But they did not give up. Chermsak had joined Sondhi at Lumpini Park already, and later became one of his formost ideologues. Now, he and his friends can celebrate their long-faught “victory.” That is, it has taken these forces about 4 1/2 years to achieve their goal of toppling the “Thaksin system.”
Today, I listened to the taxi drivers’ community radion station on Vibhavadee road. A caller remarked that, from now on, we will have a “nominee government of the PAD.”
A legal corridor for blogs
It’s nice to see that our vietnamese friends don’t loose their north… I mean their chinese model.
😉
And more seriously, using the leverage of asian culture, they eventually understood that the best and most efficient way for censorship… was of course self-censorship.
This “corridor” is nothing but a reincarnation of the “social group”. You are inside. Or outside of it. And for the sake of the very survival of the group, the group will take care of each of its members…
It’s more efficient. And much cheaper.
Unstoppable.
Violence and politics
For once, everybody seems to be in loose agreement on the facts of the situation, and it appears to be more a matter of how to interpret them. The debate seems to be: who upped the ante?
Relatedly, Ldohrs mentions the videos from Udon, showing easily identifiable individuals beating, stomping and kicking people who were already semi-conscious or unconscious on the ground.
That description captures just as accurately what PAD guards did to DAAD supporters on Sept. 2. (Well, maybe not an exact parallel — some PAD guards were not “easily identifiable” because they wore balaclavas and bandannas to hide their faces.)
In fact _ little-acknowledged fact _ a DAAD supporter was beaten to death in that incident.
Would that constitute justified “payback” for the Udon incident? Or perhaps it is just a realpolitik PAD approach to defending themselves — beat the other fellows so savagely that they won’t come back?
(I’ll acknowledge that the DAAD was marching to confront the PAD. You can use the word “attack” if you like, though contrary to the overheated accounts in Thai media, it looked to me _ from channel-surfing the footage all that night _ that there was a marked disinterest on the DAAD’s part in approaching the PAD lines too closely. Staying at a distance to throw bottles and other objects seemed to be the main action, until the PAD launched its “counterattack.”)
(Re: that night, also recall that it came a few days after some not particularly nasty street confrontations between police and PAD supporters that saw howls of police brutality come from some elements of the press and civil society, some of whom called on police to vacate the area around the occupied Government House. The PAD had also pushed out a contingent of police who had been encamped inside the compound. I bring these points up because I feel they show the claim of the PAD and sympathizers (not Ldohrs) that police made themselves scarce that night to allow a DAAD attack somewhat hypocritical.)
I realize that these comments stray somewhat from the larger point raised by Chang Noi and Ldohrs, but I think it is important to chip away at what until very recently was the (shoddy and ill-informed) conventional wisdom so that a full and robust narrative is out there.
Does Thailand need democracy?
The truth is that Thailand has for a long time been in a state of transition between a highly stratified society, in which the Puuyai have more rights than ordinary people; and a democracy where all citizens have equal rights.
The courts hand down judgements which reflect this transition. The judgements purport to be based on a system of equal rights, but are in fact designed to support the old stratified system. It is the job of judges to devise the necessary doublespeak to paper over the contradictions.
The universities purport to be spreading the values of the (European)Enlightenment, but teach, with the appropriate degree of subtlety, that nonsense and lies uttered by a Puuyai are to be valued more than the logical and truthful propositions of someone of lower status.
Progress towards democracy, and moral and intellectual advancement go hand-in-hand.
Dishonourable but parliamentary
Bangkok Post has a very interesting report of how a ‘secret plan’ called ‘Operation 20 October’ had been hatched by Suthep since late October to get Nevin and Banharn to switch side. See:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/topstories.php?id=135279
See also my brief comment at (sorry, in Thai only)
http://www.sameskybooks.org/board/index.php?&showtopic=17988
Does Thailand need democracy?
Timothy, the PAD supporters you cite are seeking to eliminate democracy.
Their vigorous actions to achieve this goal do not make sense if you are correct, for how can democracy be eliminated if it does not exist in the first place?