“It was not Thaksin who caused divisiveness. The divisiveness that has led to the serious split in Thai society was created by Sondhi not Thaksin.”
Personally i do try to get away from the battle of the elites when i can. I believe the divisiveness in society has not been created by either, but only brought to the surface by mostly Sondhi L. and his backers as a counter reaction of TRT’s mobilization of previously relatively unpoliticized sectors of society.
I do see the reasons more in decades of mismanagement of the country, especially by some social classes having unproportionally benefitted from Thailand’s boom years, while other sectors, especially the rural poor of the Northeast and the North, including the ones formerly from those disadvantaged areas and social classes now morphing into the suburban industrial underclass, have lagged behind.
Rightly or wrongly – the aspirations of those people were increasingly reflected in TRT policy and politicians, and Sondhi L. and his movement, and the ones who backed it, have both a deep distrust of those, and a so typical lack of knowledge of these sectors of society, their way of lie and their problems.
Instead of trying to understand, PAD dehumanizes these rural poor, insults them on a constant base, and will not accept that these people voted for TRT/PPP out of rational thought and not because they are bought/duped/uneducated. That way PAD is fueling a already dangerous social situation here in Thailand, and in the way of progress.
There is a huge reluctance in the Army to stage a coup. So far, most sectors have, after the failed aims of the last coup, accepted that military coups are no solution anymore in Thailand, and make things only worse. Otherwise we would have seen a coup already the evening before both camps clashed, as there was ample forewarning of what was to come.
It still might come to a coup if the situation turns unbearable, but i believe that most factions in the army would not like to be forced into a coup. The so far visible army backing for the PAD is from already retired Generals, whose still active supporters have very few key positions necessary to stage a pro PAD coup.
Uh uh Jim Taylor. Let me repeat your story.
1) Sondhi L. is a good for nothing bankrupt. This is fact and I don’t dispute this point.
2) Thaksin S. is a very successful billionaire who turned politician then led the biggest political party in Thailand to win an overwhelming majority and became Thai PM. He is loved by millions of Thais. Again this is fact and I don’t dispute this point.
3) Now tell me again Jim Taylor why did Thaksin S. choose self-exile and not face those many legal a-l-l-e-g-a-t-i-o-n-s (still innocent until prove guilty ok?) just because his wife Potjaman was recently convicted of tax evasion?
Sumtingwong . . . does not make sense. A defender of democracy, and a protector of the poor and an honest politician, with millions of people still adoring him, do not behave like a Thai criminal rat and seek protection by hiding under the skirts of the Queen of Britain.
This person must be very…., does he know about his own history and how well does he know about him self and his family. Should he write about things he knows best in his life? No wonder we see the problem is happened in many countries in the world, I will never want to by the book, he want to distroy the good person and make a living on it.
It was not Thaksin who caused divisiveness. The divisiveness that has led to the serious split in Thai society was created by Sondhi not Thaksin. Sondhi has created a lot of bad kamma in his lies and spins and has lots to answer for as Thailand goes down the gurgler. Thaksin actually brought the country together very effectively as the majority of people saw their own prosperity and opportunity grow. Markets flourished at all levels. It also benefitted efficient enterprises such as Shin Corp. Again, in relation to “mother of corruption run” (whatever that means??) I reiterate, there
have been only innuendos and rumours on corruption as a necessary ploy to discredit him and legitimise the coup and the ambitious Democrats who know they would never get back into power following the existing rules of the game given TRT’s popularity. Since late 2006 until early this year the coup-makers set up a massive bureaucracy to find evidence against Thaksin. I knew a chief prosecutor tasked with this by khor Mor Chor. To date there is no evidence. This is despite enticements to pay informers and bride former colleagues. What happened was Sondhi would start a rumour in his media such as …(this I can recall to memory) “Thaksin has gone to Singapore with suitcases hidden full of Thai banknotes” & etc…The media then ran with this. In the process it actually became a truth that many believed (because they wanted to believe this). Thaksin was super-rich sure; his highly publicised sale of his shares was a commercial decision as the market was right at the time; his tax exemption for tax on this was applied to all investors who sold shares. Why should he be singled out to pay tax if he was not supposed to pay tax? It may not have looked good…Neither would I pass a guilty verdict on a man because of his character. I would not pay tax if I didn’t have to. There was no “tax cheating” as you put it. The problem was simply the sheer scale of the transaction & the Sondhi media making this a national crisis issue. We really need to be fair in passing judgement based on heresay, conservative propaganda and vested interests as the old guard try to regain some of their lost cultural capital…
In the summer of 2003, a team from National Geographic did the month long trip of almost the whole Ledo road from the Burmese side near Pangsau at India’s border to Kunming in China. Their excellent article about the trip is still at this site.
“PAD clearly want to override the rule of government and democracy in a fiction of creating an autocratic democracy. ” – J Taylor
Is ‘autocratic democracy’ defined as that arbitrary 70/30 solution from PAD J. Taylor? Or is there more? But I can only agree with PAD that after evaluating all the current political parties, the Democrat Party seems to be the best choice by a wide margin among the bad lot. But that hardly qualifies the ‘Democrats’ as fascists, unless you believe all those b/s from Fonzi.
Hell I don’t know what PAD wants. But whatever it is, I don’t want any part of it.
But I can see J. Taylor that despite Thaksin’s divisive politics, mother-of-corruption run, extra-judicial killings, huge tax cheating and many other ‘honest mistakes’, you are still enamored by the Thaksin charisma.
Neither of which is a good idea!! So that means anybody on the Stilwell Road would have to get the goodwill of the Kachins, maybe even the Burmese(Army). So that means Theo you would have to do the trip by invitation, rather than gatecrash(not good). The task seems daunting just like old Stilwell had against marauding Japanese in WW2. I am sure if the enlightened contributors of this forum put our heads togther a solution would be found. ANy ideas?
For all the dreamers thinking of doing the famous Ledo road from India right through Burma and to China, what you need is a good bulldozer at the head of your convoy. Many parts of unsealed dirt road are now blocked by landslides and mud flow.
Military escort would also be useless as the Burmese army presence would only attract KIA and all sorts of Kachin rebels. Just carry a large cross and they would let you cross their territory.
Years back KIA militia used to ambush the army convoys with deadly result and many collateral civilian dead. Even near Myitkyina is not safe at all.
… Many of my Thai colleagues, most in fact long time Democrat supporters, are now coming around to the realisation that they were blinded by Sondhi and his game show and overlooked the gains to the Thai people during Thaksin’s time. But propaganda is effective. This is the latest: Suriyasai said last night that PAD would only accept an unelected Democrat Government with Abhisit as [puppet] PM otherwise there will be a coup. PAD would not stop unless a “special” government was formed under these conditions. Second option was a formula with five other parties to join with Democrats to form a government- though still with Abhisit as PM. This is all going to be determined in parliament by mid-week. If, within 5 days this does not eventuate then there will be a coup. This is the third option: a military-Democrat fascist alliance as in September 2006. Now, Somyot, from the “24 June Democracy Group” announced in Nonthaburi that enough is enough. He asked people to gather on 19 September (Friday) at Sanam Luang. This is the anniversary date of the illict 2006 coup. PAD clearly want to override the rule of government and democracy in a fiction of creating an autocratic democracy. If readers cannot see this, then the world really has turned upside down in the decline of morality and virtue predicted in the suttas. We should all be prepared to keep an open mind but there seems to be little honesty anymore. As my friend Prof Yos Santasombat at Chiangmai Uni said recently “…so what’s wrong with my saying I like Thaksin or that his policies actually worked”? The trouble is that most people have now gone too far to turn around. Like many academics of Thailand I was also anti-Thaksinite (I didn’t as a rule like rich folk) in the early years while teaching at Pol.Sc., Chula. I read too much of the Sondhi’s free media during Thaksin’s time -that was anti-Thaksin), and knew both Chamlong and Surayud at different times, one post 1992, the other in 2005. But over time I came to see through the smoke and distorted mirrors being erected by Sondhi and friends out of personal greed, jealousy and hatred, and of course a loss of traditional power bases by these folk. Yes Matty I am crying, but not for myself but for Thailand. …
SO has the bet been lost matty? Can PAD now go home? I guess not. According to the Bangkok Post: Ousted prime minister Samak Sundaravej ended his campaign to regain his position on Friday – and street protesters of the People’s Alliance Democracy vowed to step up their campaign to overthrow the rest of the government.
So, in the end, another election result is looking like it will be overturned.
I disagree that there are secure civil liberties in Thailand enough to discount totalitarianism as postured in this paper. Thai civil liberties depend largely on the benevolence of those in power. This undermines a liberal system in Thailand because civility is wholly dependent on authority being good… What if a monist authority happens to be bad? You cannot make an exception for lese majeste because it is the prime example for the authoritarianism you’re arguing is evident.
The paper doesn’t answer introductory questions at all in your conclusion. ie. “Why are civil rights not used for democratic ends, but by a few leaders who apply these rights for their authoritarian interests?” They’re not even answered with the loaded rhetoric in the introduction which seems more to be a rant than (not ‘then’ 🙂 ) a structured, objective analysis. The paper has many inconsistencies, ie discipline and individualism being entirely different things? Moreover, you’ve illogically discounted the psychological framework of the academic instruments you have used to analyze authoritarianism with, but use distinctly psychological aspects to categorize authority in the questions. This begins to look more like a series of value judgments than, perhaps, a position from which it is possible to address Thai fascism without a ‘control group’. Also, the paper initially mentions that the research can be used as a general indication for most Thai demographics, but then later contradicts this by mentioning that those surveyed are largely from a very specific demographic. You say “However, the results are quite clear in their general direction, so much so that we think that, combined with other data and current developments, these basic results are not only typical for these two southern provinces” — Presumably then, the other provinces have a greater proportion of women than men and 85% of people are civil servants?!
If this was an attempt to analyze the present situation in Thailand, it adequately reflects the confusion and disarray of Thai politics in it’s own confusion and disarray!
…Ed Norton, I don’t think Jon means anything particularly denigrating by singling our collective idiocy out over any other civilisations collective idiocy. Don’t you think, as a Westerner living in Northern Thailand (as he does) he is entitled to make whatever comparison he likes as is personal to him?
I agree with jonfernquest that there are flaws in the paper. However, his comments are dubious on other matters.
Again I question the tendency to single out foreigners and especially westerners. The words used in all surveying, irrespective of identity are critical. There are plenty of examples of poor surveys designed by non-westerners.
I disagree entirely that academic authors (and given that this is an academic report I assume the point is about academic works) have failed to remember that the Thaksin administration was characterised by tendencies that drew on authoritarian models. As jonfernquest likes to refer specifically to westerners, he can easily read the works of, for example, Connors, McCargo and Hewison which made this point many times and at considerable length.
The “revelation” that “democracy requires more than constitutions” is hardly earth-shattering – even communist states had and still have constitutions. I thought the mantra was that democracy was more than voting?
Good stuff! I am willing to support your enterprise at absolutely no cost( almost kidding!). Well on a serious note if there is something that I personally want to do with this life of mine, is to open up the road from Assam to Burma and beyond. Dont want to rename the road after me….just be a small part of it. India’s got cold feet over it…Burma’s shaky…only China seems to be interested(obviously for a cheaper/shorter alternative to the Malacca straits roundabout to export her goods into the West and import energy resources). But its going to be huge economic boon for Assam if it is going to handle almost 60% of the world’s trade now seaborne. Its a complex situation but a trip like yours over the ol’ road sure gives it the attention it deserves…Thanks man
“Sondhi has led the Thai media into disrepute and lack of any credibility…So please, before I read further nonsense on New Mandala by people who don’t know about these facts and believe in Sondhi media and friends- find out the real truth first.”
Ad hominem arguments are simply not relevant to the issue of whether Sondhi’s current leadership of PAD has any instrinsic value or not.
Sondhi hardly “led the Thai media into disrepute.” Read the conditions under which Thai Rath rose to prominence, supported by the police chief Phao, I believe. The Sondhi story actually sounds a little like the Donald Trump story. The history of Thaksin’s early finances before he struck it rich with an exclusive government concession hardly seem cleaner than Sondhi’s. But ad hominem arguments in the end are really besides the point. Sondhi could be the ultimate prodigal child and still be a hero.
[In general, money and pandering to public taste has been a continual complaint lodged against the media everywhere. It was the fear behind Rupert Murdoch’s recent purchase of the Wall Street journal. And for-profit Thai language media can do no better than the norms and constraints of the society that it works in, muzzled by the defamation suits that Thaksin popularized, that’s why the coup-appointed government started Thailand’s first public broadcastign station (TBS). (three examples, or rather tips of the iceberg : at a university, a law professor, a vice president of the university, a used car salesman, a convenience store owner, and the local bank manager, all arrested for running a child prostitution ring, the story covered once in Matichon with the name of the university, then I believe twice after that without the name of the university, then the story disappeared entirely, and what is truly amazing is that at the university itself there was hardly any mention or discussion of this incident at all among students, there was light gossip among the faculty. Two people who I once knew, one computer programmer from Florida who got shot by a gunman hired by his ex-wife, the other NGO worker who hung himself in his jail cell after extortion attempts by the Thai police, none of these people’s names were even spelt correctly in the Thai language newspaper articles documenting their deaths, nor was there any attempt by the media to follow the story and find out what happened and why, even though there was some attempt to do this by the police in the hitman case, there was a nice morgue photo featuring the hitman victim’s distended beer belly though. A Nation op-ed piece called for paying more attention to what rural folk consider important yesterday and I would guess that such photos would clearly qualify.) ]
>I suggest you go back and take a good look at the extrajudicial executions that became common during his tenure, the acceptance of this heavy handed approach by the rural masses, and the blood lust that accompanied it.
-My recollection is that there was a general acceptance of the drug war killings by more or less all Thais, including, judging by his public statement, one at the highest level. . You might find that arguable, but to continue the point, clearheaded unequivocal criticism came more from those arrogant, misunderstanding foreigners – press, human rights groups – than it did from Thai opinion-makers.
-The bigger point, though, concerns the implication that ‘acceptance’ and ‘blood lust’ were cultivated or fanned by Thaksin.
Aren’t we talking about adults who have pretty much gone through most of their socialization process by the time Thaksin took office? The weaknesses of Thai society – and I’m thinking pretty much of the educational system – clearly pre-date Thaksin. (As for extra-judicial killings, you know as well as I do that they are practically a national tradition.)
As for “his ultra arrogant speeches…” Arrogant, so what? He’s not a particularly inspiring speaker, and IMHO, not an inflammatory one. In a demagoguery contest, he’d finish dead last at a PAD rally.
The reason he hates Thaksin relates to the end of the Chuan Government and conflict he had with the then Minister of Finance. At this time Sondhi was pro-Democrat Party.
This sounds surprising to me. Sondhi L and the other nationalist tycoons were anti-Democrat at least more vocally 2000. It was the Chuan-led government that finally passed the amendments to the bankruptcy laws in 1998 and 1999 in strong opposition to those senators with business interests (Prachai was one of those senators). The draft has been prepared in 1992 and previous governments had failed in getting it passed, the Chuan-led government didn’t.
The difference between then and now was that the Democrats had lost popular support by 2000 . The nationalist elite knew the Democrats were likely to lose the 2001 election and thus “New Politics” wasn’t necessary and they believed that Thaksin would help their agenda – no doubt helped by some of Thaksin’s “anti-IMF rhetoric”.
1. Where is the control group? Would people in the US (and Australia for that matter) given their tendency to vote for people like Presidents Reagan and Bush, have answered the same?
2. Where is the Thai language that was presumably used in the survey? Isn’t a detailed “methodology” section a standard feature of social “science” papers like this? (The meaning of words in particular contexts, such as a westerner asking the quesiton in an academic setting can make all the difference to results.)
Commend the author on remembering, unlike others, that the Thaksin administration was characterised by a “determination to maintain political power by using non-democratic means within the framework of a democratic constitution.” which indicates that “democracy requires more than constitutions” (The Iraq War since 2003 would certainly be a good example).
(Pasuk Phongphaichit and Chris Baker (2004) “Thaksin dismantles Thailand’s Opposition,” Far Eastern Economic Review, March 2005, is best explicit proof of the first, now forgotten, statement that I know of.)
The financial crisis was rescued by Thaksin in the first two years of his government as he paid back the IMF debts generated by a long period of Democrat Govt mishandling of the economy so I dont know what newspaper you have been reading Matty- probably the “Beano”??
Should we take it as a positive development that, according to the latest reports, at least some in PPP might be concerned about re-appointing Samak as PM?
I wonder if that concern is for the right reasons, or for self preservation reasons?
Anyone else see any irony in the fugitive in London probably having the final say on whether the evidence fabricating cook is re-appointed?
It’s a good test on which they are more interested in:
Reasonable compromise & reconciliation, or victory.
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Coup talk
“Jim Taylor”:
You posted:
“It was not Thaksin who caused divisiveness. The divisiveness that has led to the serious split in Thai society was created by Sondhi not Thaksin.”
Personally i do try to get away from the battle of the elites when i can. I believe the divisiveness in society has not been created by either, but only brought to the surface by mostly Sondhi L. and his backers as a counter reaction of TRT’s mobilization of previously relatively unpoliticized sectors of society.
I do see the reasons more in decades of mismanagement of the country, especially by some social classes having unproportionally benefitted from Thailand’s boom years, while other sectors, especially the rural poor of the Northeast and the North, including the ones formerly from those disadvantaged areas and social classes now morphing into the suburban industrial underclass, have lagged behind.
Rightly or wrongly – the aspirations of those people were increasingly reflected in TRT policy and politicians, and Sondhi L. and his movement, and the ones who backed it, have both a deep distrust of those, and a so typical lack of knowledge of these sectors of society, their way of lie and their problems.
Instead of trying to understand, PAD dehumanizes these rural poor, insults them on a constant base, and will not accept that these people voted for TRT/PPP out of rational thought and not because they are bought/duped/uneducated. That way PAD is fueling a already dangerous social situation here in Thailand, and in the way of progress.
There is a huge reluctance in the Army to stage a coup. So far, most sectors have, after the failed aims of the last coup, accepted that military coups are no solution anymore in Thailand, and make things only worse. Otherwise we would have seen a coup already the evening before both camps clashed, as there was ample forewarning of what was to come.
It still might come to a coup if the situation turns unbearable, but i believe that most factions in the army would not like to be forced into a coup. The so far visible army backing for the PAD is from already retired Generals, whose still active supporters have very few key positions necessary to stage a pro PAD coup.
Coup talk
Uh uh Jim Taylor. Let me repeat your story.
1) Sondhi L. is a good for nothing bankrupt. This is fact and I don’t dispute this point.
2) Thaksin S. is a very successful billionaire who turned politician then led the biggest political party in Thailand to win an overwhelming majority and became Thai PM. He is loved by millions of Thais. Again this is fact and I don’t dispute this point.
3) Now tell me again Jim Taylor why did Thaksin S. choose self-exile and not face those many legal a-l-l-e-g-a-t-i-o-n-s (still innocent until prove guilty ok?) just because his wife Potjaman was recently convicted of tax evasion?
Sumtingwong . . . does not make sense. A defender of democracy, and a protector of the poor and an honest politician, with millions of people still adoring him, do not behave like a Thai criminal rat and seek protection by hiding under the skirts of the Queen of Britain.
Sumtingwong . . . .
“What’s all the fuss about?”
This person must be very…., does he know about his own history and how well does he know about him self and his family. Should he write about things he knows best in his life? No wonder we see the problem is happened in many countries in the world, I will never want to by the book, he want to distroy the good person and make a living on it.
Coup talk
It was not Thaksin who caused divisiveness. The divisiveness that has led to the serious split in Thai society was created by Sondhi not Thaksin. Sondhi has created a lot of bad kamma in his lies and spins and has lots to answer for as Thailand goes down the gurgler. Thaksin actually brought the country together very effectively as the majority of people saw their own prosperity and opportunity grow. Markets flourished at all levels. It also benefitted efficient enterprises such as Shin Corp. Again, in relation to “mother of corruption run” (whatever that means??) I reiterate, there
have been only innuendos and rumours on corruption as a necessary ploy to discredit him and legitimise the coup and the ambitious Democrats who know they would never get back into power following the existing rules of the game given TRT’s popularity. Since late 2006 until early this year the coup-makers set up a massive bureaucracy to find evidence against Thaksin. I knew a chief prosecutor tasked with this by khor Mor Chor. To date there is no evidence. This is despite enticements to pay informers and bride former colleagues. What happened was Sondhi would start a rumour in his media such as …(this I can recall to memory) “Thaksin has gone to Singapore with suitcases hidden full of Thai banknotes” & etc…The media then ran with this. In the process it actually became a truth that many believed (because they wanted to believe this). Thaksin was super-rich sure; his highly publicised sale of his shares was a commercial decision as the market was right at the time; his tax exemption for tax on this was applied to all investors who sold shares. Why should he be singled out to pay tax if he was not supposed to pay tax? It may not have looked good…Neither would I pass a guilty verdict on a man because of his character. I would not pay tax if I didn’t have to. There was no “tax cheating” as you put it. The problem was simply the sheer scale of the transaction & the Sondhi media making this a national crisis issue. We really need to be fair in passing judgement based on heresay, conservative propaganda and vested interests as the old guard try to regain some of their lost cultural capital…
The Stilwell Road
In the summer of 2003, a team from National Geographic did the month long trip of almost the whole Ledo road from the Burmese side near Pangsau at India’s border to Kunming in China. Their excellent article about the trip is still at this site.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/features/world/asia/myanmar/burma-road-text.htm
Coup talk
“PAD clearly want to override the rule of government and democracy in a fiction of creating an autocratic democracy. ” – J Taylor
Is ‘autocratic democracy’ defined as that arbitrary 70/30 solution from PAD J. Taylor? Or is there more? But I can only agree with PAD that after evaluating all the current political parties, the Democrat Party seems to be the best choice by a wide margin among the bad lot. But that hardly qualifies the ‘Democrats’ as fascists, unless you believe all those b/s from Fonzi.
Hell I don’t know what PAD wants. But whatever it is, I don’t want any part of it.
But I can see J. Taylor that despite Thaksin’s divisive politics, mother-of-corruption run, extra-judicial killings, huge tax cheating and many other ‘honest mistakes’, you are still enamored by the Thaksin charisma.
The Stilwell Road
Neither of which is a good idea!! So that means anybody on the Stilwell Road would have to get the goodwill of the Kachins, maybe even the Burmese(Army). So that means Theo you would have to do the trip by invitation, rather than gatecrash(not good). The task seems daunting just like old Stilwell had against marauding Japanese in WW2. I am sure if the enlightened contributors of this forum put our heads togther a solution would be found. ANy ideas?
The Stilwell Road
For all the dreamers thinking of doing the famous Ledo road from India right through Burma and to China, what you need is a good bulldozer at the head of your convoy. Many parts of unsealed dirt road are now blocked by landslides and mud flow.
Military escort would also be useless as the Burmese army presence would only attract KIA and all sorts of Kachin rebels. Just carry a large cross and they would let you cross their territory.
Years back KIA militia used to ambush the army convoys with deadly result and many collateral civilian dead. Even near Myitkyina is not safe at all.
Coup talk
… Many of my Thai colleagues, most in fact long time Democrat supporters, are now coming around to the realisation that they were blinded by Sondhi and his game show and overlooked the gains to the Thai people during Thaksin’s time. But propaganda is effective. This is the latest: Suriyasai said last night that PAD would only accept an unelected Democrat Government with Abhisit as [puppet] PM otherwise there will be a coup. PAD would not stop unless a “special” government was formed under these conditions. Second option was a formula with five other parties to join with Democrats to form a government- though still with Abhisit as PM. This is all going to be determined in parliament by mid-week. If, within 5 days this does not eventuate then there will be a coup. This is the third option: a military-Democrat fascist alliance as in September 2006. Now, Somyot, from the “24 June Democracy Group” announced in Nonthaburi that enough is enough. He asked people to gather on 19 September (Friday) at Sanam Luang. This is the anniversary date of the illict 2006 coup. PAD clearly want to override the rule of government and democracy in a fiction of creating an autocratic democracy. If readers cannot see this, then the world really has turned upside down in the decline of morality and virtue predicted in the suttas. We should all be prepared to keep an open mind but there seems to be little honesty anymore. As my friend Prof Yos Santasombat at Chiangmai Uni said recently “…so what’s wrong with my saying I like Thaksin or that his policies actually worked”? The trouble is that most people have now gone too far to turn around. Like many academics of Thailand I was also anti-Thaksinite (I didn’t as a rule like rich folk) in the early years while teaching at Pol.Sc., Chula. I read too much of the Sondhi’s free media during Thaksin’s time -that was anti-Thaksin), and knew both Chamlong and Surayud at different times, one post 1992, the other in 2005. But over time I came to see through the smoke and distorted mirrors being erected by Sondhi and friends out of personal greed, jealousy and hatred, and of course a loss of traditional power bases by these folk. Yes Matty I am crying, but not for myself but for Thailand. …
Coup talk
SO has the bet been lost matty? Can PAD now go home? I guess not. According to the Bangkok Post: Ousted prime minister Samak Sundaravej ended his campaign to regain his position on Friday – and street protesters of the People’s Alliance Democracy vowed to step up their campaign to overthrow the rest of the government.
So, in the end, another election result is looking like it will be overturned.
The Stilwell Road
Thanks for your support, Sangos. We’ll do our best!
Theo
Authoritarian orientations in Thailand
I disagree that there are secure civil liberties in Thailand enough to discount totalitarianism as postured in this paper. Thai civil liberties depend largely on the benevolence of those in power. This undermines a liberal system in Thailand because civility is wholly dependent on authority being good… What if a monist authority happens to be bad? You cannot make an exception for lese majeste because it is the prime example for the authoritarianism you’re arguing is evident.
The paper doesn’t answer introductory questions at all in your conclusion. ie. “Why are civil rights not used for democratic ends, but by a few leaders who apply these rights for their authoritarian interests?” They’re not even answered with the loaded rhetoric in the introduction which seems more to be a rant than (not ‘then’ 🙂 ) a structured, objective analysis. The paper has many inconsistencies, ie discipline and individualism being entirely different things? Moreover, you’ve illogically discounted the psychological framework of the academic instruments you have used to analyze authoritarianism with, but use distinctly psychological aspects to categorize authority in the questions. This begins to look more like a series of value judgments than, perhaps, a position from which it is possible to address Thai fascism without a ‘control group’. Also, the paper initially mentions that the research can be used as a general indication for most Thai demographics, but then later contradicts this by mentioning that those surveyed are largely from a very specific demographic. You say “However, the results are quite clear in their general direction, so much so that we think that, combined with other data and current developments, these basic results are not only typical for these two southern provinces” — Presumably then, the other provinces have a greater proportion of women than men and 85% of people are civil servants?!
If this was an attempt to analyze the present situation in Thailand, it adequately reflects the confusion and disarray of Thai politics in it’s own confusion and disarray!
…Ed Norton, I don’t think Jon means anything particularly denigrating by singling our collective idiocy out over any other civilisations collective idiocy. Don’t you think, as a Westerner living in Northern Thailand (as he does) he is entitled to make whatever comparison he likes as is personal to him?
Authoritarian orientations in Thailand
I agree with jonfernquest that there are flaws in the paper. However, his comments are dubious on other matters.
Again I question the tendency to single out foreigners and especially westerners. The words used in all surveying, irrespective of identity are critical. There are plenty of examples of poor surveys designed by non-westerners.
I disagree entirely that academic authors (and given that this is an academic report I assume the point is about academic works) have failed to remember that the Thaksin administration was characterised by tendencies that drew on authoritarian models. As jonfernquest likes to refer specifically to westerners, he can easily read the works of, for example, Connors, McCargo and Hewison which made this point many times and at considerable length.
The “revelation” that “democracy requires more than constitutions” is hardly earth-shattering – even communist states had and still have constitutions. I thought the mantra was that democracy was more than voting?
The Stilwell Road
Hey Theo
Good stuff! I am willing to support your enterprise at absolutely no cost( almost kidding!). Well on a serious note if there is something that I personally want to do with this life of mine, is to open up the road from Assam to Burma and beyond. Dont want to rename the road after me….just be a small part of it. India’s got cold feet over it…Burma’s shaky…only China seems to be interested(obviously for a cheaper/shorter alternative to the Malacca straits roundabout to export her goods into the West and import energy resources). But its going to be huge economic boon for Assam if it is going to handle almost 60% of the world’s trade now seaborne. Its a complex situation but a trip like yours over the ol’ road sure gives it the attention it deserves…Thanks man
Sangos
Assam
Sondhi Limthongkul before the PAD
“Sondhi has led the Thai media into disrepute and lack of any credibility…So please, before I read further nonsense on New Mandala by people who don’t know about these facts and believe in Sondhi media and friends- find out the real truth first.”
Ad hominem arguments are simply not relevant to the issue of whether Sondhi’s current leadership of PAD has any instrinsic value or not.
Sondhi hardly “led the Thai media into disrepute.” Read the conditions under which Thai Rath rose to prominence, supported by the police chief Phao, I believe. The Sondhi story actually sounds a little like the Donald Trump story. The history of Thaksin’s early finances before he struck it rich with an exclusive government concession hardly seem cleaner than Sondhi’s. But ad hominem arguments in the end are really besides the point. Sondhi could be the ultimate prodigal child and still be a hero.
[In general, money and pandering to public taste has been a continual complaint lodged against the media everywhere. It was the fear behind Rupert Murdoch’s recent purchase of the Wall Street journal. And for-profit Thai language media can do no better than the norms and constraints of the society that it works in, muzzled by the defamation suits that Thaksin popularized, that’s why the coup-appointed government started Thailand’s first public broadcastign station (TBS). (three examples, or rather tips of the iceberg : at a university, a law professor, a vice president of the university, a used car salesman, a convenience store owner, and the local bank manager, all arrested for running a child prostitution ring, the story covered once in Matichon with the name of the university, then I believe twice after that without the name of the university, then the story disappeared entirely, and what is truly amazing is that at the university itself there was hardly any mention or discussion of this incident at all among students, there was light gossip among the faculty. Two people who I once knew, one computer programmer from Florida who got shot by a gunman hired by his ex-wife, the other NGO worker who hung himself in his jail cell after extortion attempts by the Thai police, none of these people’s names were even spelt correctly in the Thai language newspaper articles documenting their deaths, nor was there any attempt by the media to follow the story and find out what happened and why, even though there was some attempt to do this by the police in the hitman case, there was a nice morgue photo featuring the hitman victim’s distended beer belly though. A Nation op-ed piece called for paying more attention to what rural folk consider important yesterday and I would guess that such photos would clearly qualify.) ]
Constitutional madness
>I suggest you go back and take a good look at the extrajudicial executions that became common during his tenure, the acceptance of this heavy handed approach by the rural masses, and the blood lust that accompanied it.
-My recollection is that there was a general acceptance of the drug war killings by more or less all Thais, including, judging by his public statement, one at the highest level. . You might find that arguable, but to continue the point, clearheaded unequivocal criticism came more from those arrogant, misunderstanding foreigners – press, human rights groups – than it did from Thai opinion-makers.
-The bigger point, though, concerns the implication that ‘acceptance’ and ‘blood lust’ were cultivated or fanned by Thaksin.
Aren’t we talking about adults who have pretty much gone through most of their socialization process by the time Thaksin took office? The weaknesses of Thai society – and I’m thinking pretty much of the educational system – clearly pre-date Thaksin. (As for extra-judicial killings, you know as well as I do that they are practically a national tradition.)
As for “his ultra arrogant speeches…” Arrogant, so what? He’s not a particularly inspiring speaker, and IMHO, not an inflammatory one. In a demagoguery contest, he’d finish dead last at a PAD rally.
Sondhi Limthongkul before the PAD
The reason he hates Thaksin relates to the end of the Chuan Government and conflict he had with the then Minister of Finance. At this time Sondhi was pro-Democrat Party.
This sounds surprising to me. Sondhi L and the other nationalist tycoons were anti-Democrat at least more vocally 2000. It was the Chuan-led government that finally passed the amendments to the bankruptcy laws in 1998 and 1999 in strong opposition to those senators with business interests (Prachai was one of those senators). The draft has been prepared in 1992 and previous governments had failed in getting it passed, the Chuan-led government didn’t.
The difference between then and now was that the Democrats had lost popular support by 2000 . The nationalist elite knew the Democrats were likely to lose the 2001 election and thus “New Politics” wasn’t necessary and they believed that Thaksin would help their agenda – no doubt helped by some of Thaksin’s “anti-IMF rhetoric”.
Authoritarian orientations in Thailand
Two glaring omissions as far as I can see.
1. Where is the control group? Would people in the US (and Australia for that matter) given their tendency to vote for people like Presidents Reagan and Bush, have answered the same?
2. Where is the Thai language that was presumably used in the survey? Isn’t a detailed “methodology” section a standard feature of social “science” papers like this? (The meaning of words in particular contexts, such as a westerner asking the quesiton in an academic setting can make all the difference to results.)
Commend the author on remembering, unlike others, that the Thaksin administration was characterised by a “determination to maintain political power by using non-democratic means within the framework of a democratic constitution.” which indicates that “democracy requires more than constitutions” (The Iraq War since 2003 would certainly be a good example).
(Pasuk Phongphaichit and Chris Baker (2004) “Thaksin dismantles Thailand’s Opposition,” Far Eastern Economic Review, March 2005, is best explicit proof of the first, now forgotten, statement that I know of.)
Sondhi Limthongkul before the PAD
The financial crisis was rescued by Thaksin in the first two years of his government as he paid back the IMF debts generated by a long period of Democrat Govt mishandling of the economy so I dont know what newspaper you have been reading Matty- probably the “Beano”??
Constitutional madness
Should we take it as a positive development that, according to the latest reports, at least some in PPP might be concerned about re-appointing Samak as PM?
I wonder if that concern is for the right reasons, or for self preservation reasons?
Anyone else see any irony in the fugitive in London probably having the final say on whether the evidence fabricating cook is re-appointed?
It’s a good test on which they are more interested in:
Reasonable compromise & reconciliation, or victory.