The joke started way before the cooking show verdict – electing a PM who is subject to unresolved court cases may not have been the start, but it has definitely contributed to making it a tragic comedy.
That said, Samak is not the only ugly politician around, and could have been the right man for the job at this point in time (unfortunately, he has chosen antagonism over consultation & reconciliation)
“I happen to believe Thaksin is innocent of all trumped up charges levied at him by the current judiciary- but at the very least a person should be innocent until proven guilty. So far there has been no evidence presented that show he has broken the law…”
Is running away the way to prove that innocence?
Why not fight the cases on their merits – IF everything is trumped up and there is no evidence, then surely the truth will come out, and Thaksin would be vindicated.
(The world will be watching his court cases, so a ‘kangaroo court’ is highly unlikely, and will surely be exposed if they were).
In reality Thaksin & Pojaman have been treated very leniently by the court system – being allowed to continually defer appearances, travel when on bail etc etc.
Did the drug war victims even get a chance at a day in court?
Well, I saw some news story the other day about people having their dna analyzed, and some health professional commented that it was a waste of money, people would do better seeing a fortune teller. I’m not hawking my expertise here, but you guys at NM first have to settle the baby’s birthday (Siam, Thailand, Sukhothai, Ratanakosin, KoToMo, 1932, 1957, 1973, 1976, 1992, 1997, 2006). As is, there are too many possible birthdays and it’s not even clear what the baby’s identity really is (“not Burmese”, “not Khmer”, “not farang” is a bit too vague). This needs to be cleared up first.
Update: another pro-government rally goer died last night, Mr Prasit Jantemduang. There were eight persons seriously injured by PAD’s mob- and all were injuries aimed at the head (in other words they were meant to be killed). Only one person was 26 years of age; the others were older persons over 46 years of age who could not run away fast enough from the PAD mob attack.
Glenn, the BBC and CNN both ran the cooking story. They sort of mocked the idea of a PM being ousted in this way. A king of This is Thailand story. So they may not think much about Thiland, but they were laughing this time. One winner in this is Thaksin – his asylum case becomes easier with these kinds of decisions.
You really want to go over all the coup discussion again? Surely two years of blogging and considerable academic writing is enough. Your view is unlikely to change if that two years of discussion has you still wanting to debate whether Thailand was a “functioning democracy.” Dichotomies (either/or) have probably gone out the door long ago.
Nganadeelag you are probably right in a sense that I happen to believe Thaksin is innocent of all trumped up charges levied at him by the current judiciary- but at the very least a person should be innocent until proven guilty. So far there has been no evidence presented that show he has broken the law (unless you change the law and then make it retrospective and selective for one person only- which the current judiciary likes to do)…And…unless you consider the media tantamount to a proper, transparent and impartial judicial process?
“Laughingstock of the world”? Puhleeze. That implies that the rest of the world thinks about Thailand at all.
Ultimately the court may have handed everyone a chance to get out of the current situation. Samak can bow out semi-gracefully and save some face. PAD can declare some sort of victory and go home for the time being. PPP can put up a less unsavory character for PM or the coalition can put some one in place. And the country can start to move forward again.
Obviously the rifts are enormous and aren’t going to be healed overnight. But the current stalemate doesn’t appear to be breakable.
As to the 2006 coup, was Thailand really a democracy at the time of the coup? With Thaksin’s corruption infecting all levels of the government was it a functioning, actual democracy?
I feel quite sick reading some of the comments. Most of the Constitutional judges were involved in drafting the current illicit constitution. Who selected them? a group including Abhisit leader of the Democrats and judges emplaced by Khor Mor Chor/coup leaders last year. The only real oppositional voice to this insanely biased group was Yongyut Tiyapairat chair of the Parliament from Chiangrai (PPP) and … guess what? he was mischievously red carded at the onset.
In the Constitutional Court most were involved directly in a committee set up by Khor Mor Chor in drafting the current dictatorial Constitution and thus a clear vested interest; people such as the unpleasant loud-mouthed anti-Thaksinite Jaran Pakdeetanakul (I have wrote about him in an earlier blog); Chat Cholaworn (head); Jaroon Intajaan- ex Supreme Court/Tribunal; Chalermpon Eik-uru (ex-Under Secretary for Ministry for Foreign Affairs, Khor Mor Chor illegal “Government”); Nurak Mapraneet (ex-Constitution Tribunal that ruled to disband TRT); Boosong Kulbuppha (involved in drafting current Constitution); Wasan Soiphisut (orginally clearing Thaksin- but then changing sides and for that reason accepted into the black gang and who recently judged Khunying Potjaman- with its equally predictable outcome); Suphot Kaimook (also ex-draft Consitutional Committee); Udomsak Nitimontri (ex-draft Consitutional Committee). All these people were appointed by the coup group in allegiance with the Democrat Party. Can you all imagine Abhisit’s role?? They are not neutral, and indeed quite biased with the clear agenda to establish the status quo ante (before Thaksin). Is this now clear to all readers??
Clear your heads of your prejudices, take a step back and consider what it says about PPP and it’s coalition partners if they reappoint as PM a person who has been stood down in these circumstances (including posible covering up evidence?) and such person is also subject to further court actions.
Are they worried people will run out of reasons to protest against them?
Thaicrisis says it is a false comparison to compare the illegality of a coup with the PM doing a couple of cooking shows. Well, yes, it is false. Under the 1997 constitution staging a coup was illegal (as it seems to be under the 2007 constitution). So overthrowing a country’s basic law is hardly a fair comparison. It’s scale is enormous. It is like comparing murder with jaywalking. Yes, sure, everyone should be under the law.
One of the unstated reasons (and not the only reason) for PAD and their opposing legal constitutional revision (under the 2007 constitution, so presumably Thaicrisis is supportive of the parliament amending the constituition??), is to prevent the amnesty for the coup makers being overturned.
Samak was not guilty of hosting a cooking show. He was guilty of getting paid large amounts of money for doing it, and the court even mentioned his attempts at covering up the evidence. But I guess ‘hosting a cooking show’ makes better headlines.
In what countries would it be ok for the leader to get paid millions for a second job? Its an abuse of privilege and would be a loop hole allowing bribes.
The photo on the left-hand side of the pro-military and pro-PAD newspaper The Nation’s website today showed two PAD members crying tears of joy to hear Samak had been disqualified. I want to see the reaction of the entire protesters when Samak is re-elected soon by the PPP MP’s.
My Thai friends also begin to believe that regular heavy rain in the evening for the few past days shows that Mother Nature is punishing PAD protesters for their undemocratic actions. Imagine no rain in Isan (Northeast) at all while rain (even hails) continue to pour in Bangkok.
I see you quote Cesar by now…
You definitely support ‘vox populi vox barbari’, don’t you? ;-p
How long before you set the selfish Italian Northern League as an example for the PAD to follow? So when are you ready to support a come back of Taksin who could contend for the best Thai equivalent of Berlusconi?
Actually, this time I think the court made the correct choice.
They follow and judge base on the constitution, no matter if the justice of it is debatable.
Just as a punishment should not be impose retrospectively, if the rule is written very broad. Then all still have to abide by that stupid rule.
The one to be blame is those that written the rule, not the judge.
Thanks Karmablues – and I naively thought “Toxic” was a play on “Thaksin” all along while it is an actual concept. Yes, the country was generally functioning fine, as Jonfernquest said – with gradual improvements – post-Black May up until the first couple of years of PMThaksin’s leadership when his greed, power-hungry and monopolizing tendencies clearly took over.
He gave democracy a very bad name and left a very bad taste for many in the Thai middleclass. In 1992 the urban-based middleclass FOUGHT THE MILITARY AND DIED for DEMOCRATIC RULE. In 2008, they support the PAD AGAINST AN ELECTED GOVERNMENT although the PAD leadership advocated an undemocratic clean politics – even if many personally do not support the 70:30 system. Something clearly went very wrong along the way and it is definitely not the monarchy, who certainly thought they can ‘retire’ with the passage of the 1997 Constitution and that the various independent bodies can keep check on the elected politician’s excesses and mitigate conflicts between the state and the citizen.
Many in NM seem to see PMThaksin (and now PMSamak) as a democratic hero – they forget that it is the Thai middleclass that fought for and define “Thai democracy” through their urban-based violent experiences in 1932, 1973, 1976, 1992, 2006 and now 2008. New Mandala has listened closely to the rural population (and I am deeply thankful for that) and formulated the idealistic “Rural Constitution”. I urge NM to exercise more impartiality and listen to the urban-based middleclass (old and young) too – believe me, they look at the quality of politicians in developed democracies, say in Australia’s (whether Liberal-National or Labor) with envy…
-> Bob. I know that every day, every freaking minute, rules are broken in Thailand. That’s the very identity of this country if I may say…
But, at one point, we need to start somewhere, right ? I mean to respect laws and regulations.
The decision against Pojaman for instance was strikening. First time we had such decision against important people.
And it was perfectly technical. And it was made with forms (Pojaman used all the tricks to postpone, delay, etc. the Court remained calm).
But I’m not naive. Eventually, of course it’s political.
But overall, I prefer a technical decision from a Court, rather than a coup d’etat by a bunch of lunatics in uniform. Even though the outcome could be the same.
And I would like to add that everybody (whatever your side) should be happy to see powerful people falling.
It’s refreshing. It’s necessary.
We were happy (I certainly was) in december when the generals received a big slap in their face with the elections.
Today, to see Samak falling for a tiny conflict of interests, makes me equally happy.
Nothing better than a good loss of face to calm down those arrogant thai politicians, and make them more civilized.
And let’s dream : after a few decisions like that… maybe… maybe the politicians will start to behave better.
Ah finally an opportunity for PMSamak to step down gracefully…
PPP will reappoint Samak and he has a chance to do what his sweared enemy, ParPrem did in 1988 “Thankyou, I have had enough” and ride into the sunset… He is probably aware that there’s a high likelihood he will not survive the defamation case which the reading is scheduled for the end of the month (although the case can still be appealed?). Contrary to what foriegners think, the judiciary are now doing their job commendably – Prasong Soonsiri, PMThaksin’s nemesis (and a PAD supporter), has just been convicted of libel in the appeals court:
And in step PMBanharn for round 2 – so the rumours go?!
And Thailand will be the “laughing stock of the world” all over again? But the Thais (whether pro-, against or neutral) don’t seem to care as a former prime minister famously said, “The UN is not my father” – “The world is not my father” in this case… Frankly, I’ll be laughing too if PMBanharn makes a comeback and politics swing from extreme inflexibility to ‘Slippery on Skates’…
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Constitutional madness
The joke started way before the cooking show verdict – electing a PM who is subject to unresolved court cases may not have been the start, but it has definitely contributed to making it a tragic comedy.
That said, Samak is not the only ugly politician around, and could have been the right man for the job at this point in time (unfortunately, he has chosen antagonism over consultation & reconciliation)
Constitutional madness
“I happen to believe Thaksin is innocent of all trumped up charges levied at him by the current judiciary- but at the very least a person should be innocent until proven guilty. So far there has been no evidence presented that show he has broken the law…”
Is running away the way to prove that innocence?
Why not fight the cases on their merits – IF everything is trumped up and there is no evidence, then surely the truth will come out, and Thaksin would be vindicated.
(The world will be watching his court cases, so a ‘kangaroo court’ is highly unlikely, and will surely be exposed if they were).
In reality Thaksin & Pojaman have been treated very leniently by the court system – being allowed to continually defer appearances, travel when on bail etc etc.
Did the drug war victims even get a chance at a day in court?
Seeking a consultant astrologer
Well, I saw some news story the other day about people having their dna analyzed, and some health professional commented that it was a waste of money, people would do better seeing a fortune teller. I’m not hawking my expertise here, but you guys at NM first have to settle the baby’s birthday (Siam, Thailand, Sukhothai, Ratanakosin, KoToMo, 1932, 1957, 1973, 1976, 1992, 1997, 2006). As is, there are too many possible birthdays and it’s not even clear what the baby’s identity really is (“not Burmese”, “not Khmer”, “not farang” is a bit too vague). This needs to be cleared up first.
29.8.2008: The destruction of lawful society
Update: another pro-government rally goer died last night, Mr Prasit Jantemduang. There were eight persons seriously injured by PAD’s mob- and all were injuries aimed at the head (in other words they were meant to be killed). Only one person was 26 years of age; the others were older persons over 46 years of age who could not run away fast enough from the PAD mob attack.
Constitutional madness
Glenn, the BBC and CNN both ran the cooking story. They sort of mocked the idea of a PM being ousted in this way. A king of This is Thailand story. So they may not think much about Thiland, but they were laughing this time. One winner in this is Thaksin – his asylum case becomes easier with these kinds of decisions.
You really want to go over all the coup discussion again? Surely two years of blogging and considerable academic writing is enough. Your view is unlikely to change if that two years of discussion has you still wanting to debate whether Thailand was a “functioning democracy.” Dichotomies (either/or) have probably gone out the door long ago.
Constitutional madness
Nganadeelag you are probably right in a sense that I happen to believe Thaksin is innocent of all trumped up charges levied at him by the current judiciary- but at the very least a person should be innocent until proven guilty. So far there has been no evidence presented that show he has broken the law (unless you change the law and then make it retrospective and selective for one person only- which the current judiciary likes to do)…And…unless you consider the media tantamount to a proper, transparent and impartial judicial process?
Constitutional madness
Jim Taylor: Unfortunately, it is becoming clearer that the only court decisions you will ever accept are as follows:
Thaksin (or pro Thaksin) : Not Guilty
or
anti Thaksin : Guilty
In your view, any other result must be biased!
(in that respect you have a lot in common with the PAD)
Constitutional madness
“Laughingstock of the world”? Puhleeze. That implies that the rest of the world thinks about Thailand at all.
Ultimately the court may have handed everyone a chance to get out of the current situation. Samak can bow out semi-gracefully and save some face. PAD can declare some sort of victory and go home for the time being. PPP can put up a less unsavory character for PM or the coalition can put some one in place. And the country can start to move forward again.
Obviously the rifts are enormous and aren’t going to be healed overnight. But the current stalemate doesn’t appear to be breakable.
As to the 2006 coup, was Thailand really a democracy at the time of the coup? With Thaksin’s corruption infecting all levels of the government was it a functioning, actual democracy?
Constitutional madness
I feel quite sick reading some of the comments. Most of the Constitutional judges were involved in drafting the current illicit constitution. Who selected them? a group including Abhisit leader of the Democrats and judges emplaced by Khor Mor Chor/coup leaders last year. The only real oppositional voice to this insanely biased group was Yongyut Tiyapairat chair of the Parliament from Chiangrai (PPP) and … guess what? he was mischievously red carded at the onset.
In the Constitutional Court most were involved directly in a committee set up by Khor Mor Chor in drafting the current dictatorial Constitution and thus a clear vested interest; people such as the unpleasant loud-mouthed anti-Thaksinite Jaran Pakdeetanakul (I have wrote about him in an earlier blog); Chat Cholaworn (head); Jaroon Intajaan- ex Supreme Court/Tribunal; Chalermpon Eik-uru (ex-Under Secretary for Ministry for Foreign Affairs, Khor Mor Chor illegal “Government”); Nurak Mapraneet (ex-Constitution Tribunal that ruled to disband TRT); Boosong Kulbuppha (involved in drafting current Constitution); Wasan Soiphisut (orginally clearing Thaksin- but then changing sides and for that reason accepted into the black gang and who recently judged Khunying Potjaman- with its equally predictable outcome); Suphot Kaimook (also ex-draft Consitutional Committee); Udomsak Nitimontri (ex-draft Consitutional Committee). All these people were appointed by the coup group in allegiance with the Democrat Party. Can you all imagine Abhisit’s role?? They are not neutral, and indeed quite biased with the clear agenda to establish the status quo ante (before Thaksin). Is this now clear to all readers??
Constitutional madness
A sensible Samak/PPP/Coalition (wishful thinking!) would use this constitutional court case as an example of why the 2007 constitution is flawed.
Need I say it again 🙂 – they could then open up the constitution amendment process to consultation as a way of diffusing the current standoff.
Constitutional madness
Clear your heads of your prejudices, take a step back and consider what it says about PPP and it’s coalition partners if they reappoint as PM a person who has been stood down in these circumstances (including posible covering up evidence?) and such person is also subject to further court actions.
Are they worried people will run out of reasons to protest against them?
Constitutional madness
Thaicrisis says it is a false comparison to compare the illegality of a coup with the PM doing a couple of cooking shows. Well, yes, it is false. Under the 1997 constitution staging a coup was illegal (as it seems to be under the 2007 constitution). So overthrowing a country’s basic law is hardly a fair comparison. It’s scale is enormous. It is like comparing murder with jaywalking. Yes, sure, everyone should be under the law.
One of the unstated reasons (and not the only reason) for PAD and their opposing legal constitutional revision (under the 2007 constitution, so presumably Thaicrisis is supportive of the parliament amending the constituition??), is to prevent the amnesty for the coup makers being overturned.
Constitutional madness
Samak was not guilty of hosting a cooking show. He was guilty of getting paid large amounts of money for doing it, and the court even mentioned his attempts at covering up the evidence. But I guess ‘hosting a cooking show’ makes better headlines.
In what countries would it be ok for the leader to get paid millions for a second job? Its an abuse of privilege and would be a loop hole allowing bribes.
Constitutional madness
Jeez, Thailand just became a republic…..
A Banana Republic.
Constitutional madness
The photo on the left-hand side of the pro-military and pro-PAD newspaper The Nation’s website today showed two PAD members crying tears of joy to hear Samak had been disqualified. I want to see the reaction of the entire protesters when Samak is re-elected soon by the PPP MP’s.
My Thai friends also begin to believe that regular heavy rain in the evening for the few past days shows that Mother Nature is punishing PAD protesters for their undemocratic actions. Imagine no rain in Isan (Northeast) at all while rain (even hails) continue to pour in Bangkok.
Constitutional madness
To jonfernquest :
I see you quote Cesar by now…
You definitely support ‘vox populi vox barbari’, don’t you? ;-p
How long before you set the selfish Italian Northern League as an example for the PAD to follow? So when are you ready to support a come back of Taksin who could contend for the best Thai equivalent of Berlusconi?
;-P
Constitutional madness
Actually, this time I think the court made the correct choice.
They follow and judge base on the constitution, no matter if the justice of it is debatable.
Just as a punishment should not be impose retrospectively, if the rule is written very broad. Then all still have to abide by that stupid rule.
The one to be blame is those that written the rule, not the judge.
Thai crisis. Royal silence.
Thanks Karmablues – and I naively thought “Toxic” was a play on “Thaksin” all along while it is an actual concept. Yes, the country was generally functioning fine, as Jonfernquest said – with gradual improvements – post-Black May up until the first couple of years of PMThaksin’s leadership when his greed, power-hungry and monopolizing tendencies clearly took over.
He gave democracy a very bad name and left a very bad taste for many in the Thai middleclass. In 1992 the urban-based middleclass FOUGHT THE MILITARY AND DIED for DEMOCRATIC RULE. In 2008, they support the PAD AGAINST AN ELECTED GOVERNMENT although the PAD leadership advocated an undemocratic clean politics – even if many personally do not support the 70:30 system. Something clearly went very wrong along the way and it is definitely not the monarchy, who certainly thought they can ‘retire’ with the passage of the 1997 Constitution and that the various independent bodies can keep check on the elected politician’s excesses and mitigate conflicts between the state and the citizen.
Many in NM seem to see PMThaksin (and now PMSamak) as a democratic hero – they forget that it is the Thai middleclass that fought for and define “Thai democracy” through their urban-based violent experiences in 1932, 1973, 1976, 1992, 2006 and now 2008. New Mandala has listened closely to the rural population (and I am deeply thankful for that) and formulated the idealistic “Rural Constitution”. I urge NM to exercise more impartiality and listen to the urban-based middleclass (old and young) too – believe me, they look at the quality of politicians in developed democracies, say in Australia’s (whether Liberal-National or Labor) with envy…
Constitutional madness
-> Bob. I know that every day, every freaking minute, rules are broken in Thailand. That’s the very identity of this country if I may say…
But, at one point, we need to start somewhere, right ? I mean to respect laws and regulations.
The decision against Pojaman for instance was strikening. First time we had such decision against important people.
And it was perfectly technical. And it was made with forms (Pojaman used all the tricks to postpone, delay, etc. the Court remained calm).
But I’m not naive. Eventually, of course it’s political.
But overall, I prefer a technical decision from a Court, rather than a coup d’etat by a bunch of lunatics in uniform. Even though the outcome could be the same.
And I would like to add that everybody (whatever your side) should be happy to see powerful people falling.
It’s refreshing. It’s necessary.
We were happy (I certainly was) in december when the generals received a big slap in their face with the elections.
Today, to see Samak falling for a tiny conflict of interests, makes me equally happy.
Nothing better than a good loss of face to calm down those arrogant thai politicians, and make them more civilized.
And let’s dream : after a few decisions like that… maybe… maybe the politicians will start to behave better.
We can always dream about it. 😉
Constitutional madness
Ah finally an opportunity for PMSamak to step down gracefully…
PPP will reappoint Samak and he has a chance to do what his sweared enemy, ParPrem did in 1988 “Thankyou, I have had enough” and ride into the sunset… He is probably aware that there’s a high likelihood he will not survive the defamation case which the reading is scheduled for the end of the month (although the case can still be appealed?). Contrary to what foriegners think, the judiciary are now doing their job commendably – Prasong Soonsiri, PMThaksin’s nemesis (and a PAD supporter), has just been convicted of libel in the appeals court:
“Prasong’s libel conviction confirmed with suspended jail term for two years”
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/09/09/politics/politics_30082960.php
And in step PMBanharn for round 2 – so the rumours go?!
And Thailand will be the “laughing stock of the world” all over again? But the Thais (whether pro-, against or neutral) don’t seem to care as a former prime minister famously said, “The UN is not my father” – “The world is not my father” in this case… Frankly, I’ll be laughing too if PMBanharn makes a comeback and politics swing from extreme inflexibility to ‘Slippery on Skates’…