The judges needed a lot of intellectual gymnastics to “construe” a free-lance cooking show as a “business partnership” (3 votes; freelance journalists for newspapers will be interested to learn that they are in fact “business partners” of the owners of the publications they write for). The other six judges thought that Samak was merely an employee (strange that there can be such a difference in interpretation in such a simple case). The Thai word is luk chang, which implies a contract, either for a specified duration or unlimited, with a clearly defined boss (nai chang), who will give orders to his subordinate. Who will ever think that Samak’s cooking show was of that kind?
And, sure, this decision has prevented Samak from passing innumerable decisions as prime minister that benefited either himself (as business partner in the cooking show) or his supposed nai chang, who would issue orders to Samak to misuse his position for his, the nai chang’s, benefit!
I am not a legal expert. But it is hard not to see this court decision out of the political context. Laws are impersonal but people who resort to and apply them are not immune from prejudice and bias. For those who disagree with the extra-electoral means pursued by the PAD and its supporters to rid of their political opponents, me included, this is a part of their strategies (or stunts?). What pains me is the impression that the judiciary has let itself to be used (if not willingly playing along).
Unlike Thaicrisis, I think Andrew makes a keen comparison. On a broad ‘fairness’ scale, the harm that the 2006 coup inflicted upon Thailand’s democratic institutions (no matter how abstract it sounds) outweighs Samak’s cooking show.
Thailand is fast becoming the laughingstock of the world, not that the powers that be in Thailand care. Today’s headline, “Thai PM forced to resign for hosting cooking show”. Pathetic.
With all due respect to ThaiCrisis, “a rule was broken” – are you serious? Just about every aspect of this country’s legal system is broken. Almost every rule of law that can be broken has been broken by the whole bunch. And for the court to all of sudden step in and proclaim itself to be an honest arbiter of the law is simply unbelievable.
Anyone who believes this was a “technical” decision is dreaming. The technical is totally political here, now, 100%. In case ThaiCrisis hasn’t noticed, the powers that are behind PAD control the courts and most other institutions. They are simply doing what they always do, that is, use whatever means possible to retain power. Until that underlying dynamic is exposed to the light of day and reformed so that durable democratic institutions are in place, any decision from these courts lacks moral authority and legitimacy. Especially nakedly transparent political moves like this. I mean even the most uninformed person can see this one a mile away…kind of like the 70/30 New Politics scam, or is 50/50 now.
I hope they reappoint Samak as PM as fast as possible this time, and every other time this kangaroo system tries to hijack the votes of the majority of citizens of Thailand.
In the opinion of this non-expert, I think the last two paragraphs are spot on – couldn’t agree more.
Two anecdotes:
One of my in-laws is the hua kenang for his village in the Northeast, so there is vote buying – apparently the going rate is 300 baht per head. I asked him over the weekend, if there was no money involved who would he and most of the village vote for? Without question, the TRT/PPP because not only did they promise improvements for the viallges in his area, they followed through on their promises. The money might be a little incentive to go to the polls, but most would vote PPP anyway. He calls the Democrat party the ‘No Party’ because of what he sees as their contrarian attitude towards all that the PPP/TRT wants to accomplish.
On the other side, my neighbor is a supporter of the PAD and consistently votes Democrat. He is frustrated that the the people in the North and Northeast aren’t ‘educated’ enough to understand how the current government is hurting the country.
Say what you will about the rural poor, but they are not stupid. I think they understand the realities of Thai politics but it’s an abstraction, the corruption doesn’t really impact their daily lives. They are willing to overlook a lot, as along as they believe that their interests are being looked after. What my neighbor and others of similar mindsets are missing is that it’s not enough to ‘educate’ the poor as to the evils of the PPP, they have to convince people outside of Bangkok, through their actions and policy proposals, that their side is good for not only the well being of the country, but for the people as well.
Gosh, guess now PPP won’t try to rewrite the constitution, gut the legal system, rewrite the laws, and stack all government ministries with loyal functionaries to facilitate the triumphant return of their beloved leader as if he was Julius Caesar in the year 45 BC, as if he had never broke the law.
Ahhh. We can breathe easier now. Despite the hysterical screaming of the foreign media as the fever reached its peak, the patient (the body politic) has just passed through the final fever, is now on the path to recovery, and will soon be standing on his feet again. Amen.
Time for the PAD to disperse and go home, following the judicial conviction of Samak Sundaravej for conflict of interest. There is no more point to their continuing the protests . . . and the longer PAD people linger at the Government House, the more imminent the danger of needless violence flaring up.
After PAD disperses, the PAD leaders should immediatley and peacefully surrender themselves to the police to face charges.
Thaksin’s ethical lapses were legendary Jim Taylor, but you are in denial as usual. Thaksin went into self-exile once his wife Potjaman was convicted of tax evasion Jim Taylor. And Thaksin immediately knew his ‘honest mistakes’ plea won’t sway the Thai courts the next time around.
Perhaps Thaksin’s crocodile tears could convince the UK courts to grant him the asylum he seeks. . . who knows? That should cheer you up Jim Taylor.
On one hand, you stage a coup. So by definition, you’re out of law.
On the other hand, a rule was broken.
Now, of course, we can argue : the conflict of interests is rather… small.
But, do you want to abide by the law, or not ?
It’s time for the thai politicians to respect the law, and nothing but the law.
The PAD should do it. And Samak too.
The decision of the Court is technical. They’re right.
The decision of the (same) Court in 2001 in favor of Thaksin was not technical (assets concealment case). But political (we can’t ban the man who won a landslide elections a few months earlier, let’s give him a chance).
And a that time, Thaksin was guilty to the bone (he put hundred of millions THB of assets in his employees names… Nominees).
Predictable -with a court stacked last year by Khor Mor Chor & Democrat Party cronies…No wonder Thaksin has to stay away with such a disgraceful and corrupt judiciary
Thanks for those quotes karmablue. Seems like McCargo is pretty even handed with both sides in his argument. it’s too bad that people have turned the phrase “network monarchy” into a negative thing since in many ways it seems that this network is what held Thailand together and made it strong and prosperous for all those years. Thaksin was wrong to displace it as he did in the name of “democracy.”
Anyway, who’s going to be the next Prime Minister?
The court just ruled against Samak.
Change did come about in 1997 in the form of a popular and progressive constitution that handed power from an unelected elite to the people. In practice it seemed to have some minor flaws that could have been adjusted, but the PAD and their supporters haven’t once pursued the “fix it” route, instead opting for “throw it out”.
It seems clear that their strategy has resulted in three more lost years for the people of Thailand. Nothing the PAD or their ex-junta allies has dome in any small way has addressed the core issues they claim to be obsessed with.
Thailand has weak institutions and poor law enforcement. A group of elite tearing down institutions and breaking laws hardly seems like a cure.
Ok, just came to clear something up: my comment was totally sarcastic. It was meant to point that what ever happens, I am 110% sure that there is yet again groups screaming VOTE BUYING and protesting on streets.
I dont try to neglect the problem of vote buying but just saying that it is such a stick to throw at, even without any proof. And happens everytime someone does not like vote results, true or not.
Jumlong would do a lot more good applying his vast experience in government service to more constructive purposes, instead of rendering disservice to the country.
A great anti-hegemonic post, Nick! The truth needs to be told. Unfortunately, in the present mass media situation in Thailand, this is going to be confined to blogs with very limited audiences.
Sounds all quite nice, except that you are asking the PAD to act contrary to its raison d’etre, and its core strategies. They have already rejected all suggestions about entering the parliamentary mainstream (although, of course, they can change their minds), because they think that it is rotten to the core (they have waited since the early 1990s that change would come about by regular means). That’s why they have targeted the very top of the political system and systematically built up their bargaining power. The PAD has come to the point where they hold all the trump cards in their hands–a huge amount of political capital for negotiations. The PAD has taken great risks, and spent huge amount of money, to get into this position. Why then should they leave the scene empty-handed?
That was a very good post from ‘karmablues’. It helps to explain why every single TRT/PPP party members pledge undying allegiance to their Beloved Leader Thaksin Shinawatra or his designated proxy Samak Sundaravej.
The uneducated and the constipated rural people would have no way of comprehending what toxic leadership from Thaksin Shinawatra and proxy Samak Sundaravej means. They can only remember the ‘goodies’ or handouts from Thaksin, but would have no way of understanding the dangers of toxic leadership.
Jim Taylor seems to be an educated man . . . seems to be because Jim Taylor can bloviate endlesslessly in defense of Thaksin’s toxic leadership.
“I hope he is not kicked out on a cooking show ambiguity / technicality – that would be a travesty after walking the tightrope for so long now!”
Same with me. It would sound kind of ridiculous, even if it was technically correct, but being technically correct is what the law is about. Legal decisions are not about public opinion, although some powerful politician I guess could quickly rewrite all the laws based on the mandate of the rural masses and feel fully justified, although this seems ipso facto proof why Bangkok should be in full control of the country and not the two demographically strong rural swing regions of the north and northeast, as is the case now.
The appeal on the two year jail term that Samak currently faces (and was facing when he was elected) will be decided on September 25th. Supporting the sentence wouldn’t be unreasonable and would provide a clear message to people who consider themselves above the law because they are VIPs.
Jim Taylor: Sorry for not being politically correct, but it should be clear my above (medical treatment) comment did not relate to the dead man , and it was not intended to offend the victims or their families.
I offer my condolences to all the victims and their families (on both sides), and also my condemnation of your leaders (on both sides).
Hey “canon fodder”?? that frankly is an ignorant and indecent comment to make in these circumstances. It reflects the attitude of the fascist PAD contingent. FYI, here is how the Bangkokpost (which the likes of readers such as yourself rely for information) reported the death on 2 September:
“The dead man was identified as Narongsak Kothaisong, 55, of Nakhon Ratchasima, who had just arrived in Bangkok to support the PAD on Monday”!!!
A change of a name ( especialy when changing the name of a country)
can have an amazing effect. And that is what i think the scholars are trying to suggest. since a government was created in thailand in 1932 , at last count there have been 18 coups . And when i think of future coups that will take place , the change of name is just the beginning for future decisions that will be made on the behalf of thai people. I also believe that what effects the people of thailand can cause a ripple for the rest of the developed world. So its not just in the interest of the thais only. !!! lets hope things improve for the better.
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Constitutional madness
Such a legal farce…
The judges needed a lot of intellectual gymnastics to “construe” a free-lance cooking show as a “business partnership” (3 votes; freelance journalists for newspapers will be interested to learn that they are in fact “business partners” of the owners of the publications they write for). The other six judges thought that Samak was merely an employee (strange that there can be such a difference in interpretation in such a simple case). The Thai word is luk chang, which implies a contract, either for a specified duration or unlimited, with a clearly defined boss (nai chang), who will give orders to his subordinate. Who will ever think that Samak’s cooking show was of that kind?
And, sure, this decision has prevented Samak from passing innumerable decisions as prime minister that benefited either himself (as business partner in the cooking show) or his supposed nai chang, who would issue orders to Samak to misuse his position for his, the nai chang’s, benefit!
Constitutional madness
I am not a legal expert. But it is hard not to see this court decision out of the political context. Laws are impersonal but people who resort to and apply them are not immune from prejudice and bias. For those who disagree with the extra-electoral means pursued by the PAD and its supporters to rid of their political opponents, me included, this is a part of their strategies (or stunts?). What pains me is the impression that the judiciary has let itself to be used (if not willingly playing along).
Unlike Thaicrisis, I think Andrew makes a keen comparison. On a broad ‘fairness’ scale, the harm that the 2006 coup inflicted upon Thailand’s democratic institutions (no matter how abstract it sounds) outweighs Samak’s cooking show.
Constitutional madness
Thailand is fast becoming the laughingstock of the world, not that the powers that be in Thailand care. Today’s headline, “Thai PM forced to resign for hosting cooking show”. Pathetic.
With all due respect to ThaiCrisis, “a rule was broken” – are you serious? Just about every aspect of this country’s legal system is broken. Almost every rule of law that can be broken has been broken by the whole bunch. And for the court to all of sudden step in and proclaim itself to be an honest arbiter of the law is simply unbelievable.
Anyone who believes this was a “technical” decision is dreaming. The technical is totally political here, now, 100%. In case ThaiCrisis hasn’t noticed, the powers that are behind PAD control the courts and most other institutions. They are simply doing what they always do, that is, use whatever means possible to retain power. Until that underlying dynamic is exposed to the light of day and reformed so that durable democratic institutions are in place, any decision from these courts lacks moral authority and legitimacy. Especially nakedly transparent political moves like this. I mean even the most uninformed person can see this one a mile away…kind of like the 70/30 New Politics scam, or is 50/50 now.
I hope they reappoint Samak as PM as fast as possible this time, and every other time this kangaroo system tries to hijack the votes of the majority of citizens of Thailand.
A season for stunts
In the opinion of this non-expert, I think the last two paragraphs are spot on – couldn’t agree more.
Two anecdotes:
One of my in-laws is the hua kenang for his village in the Northeast, so there is vote buying – apparently the going rate is 300 baht per head. I asked him over the weekend, if there was no money involved who would he and most of the village vote for? Without question, the TRT/PPP because not only did they promise improvements for the viallges in his area, they followed through on their promises. The money might be a little incentive to go to the polls, but most would vote PPP anyway. He calls the Democrat party the ‘No Party’ because of what he sees as their contrarian attitude towards all that the PPP/TRT wants to accomplish.
On the other side, my neighbor is a supporter of the PAD and consistently votes Democrat. He is frustrated that the the people in the North and Northeast aren’t ‘educated’ enough to understand how the current government is hurting the country.
Say what you will about the rural poor, but they are not stupid. I think they understand the realities of Thai politics but it’s an abstraction, the corruption doesn’t really impact their daily lives. They are willing to overlook a lot, as along as they believe that their interests are being looked after. What my neighbor and others of similar mindsets are missing is that it’s not enough to ‘educate’ the poor as to the evils of the PPP, they have to convince people outside of Bangkok, through their actions and policy proposals, that their side is good for not only the well being of the country, but for the people as well.
Constitutional madness
Gosh, guess now PPP won’t try to rewrite the constitution, gut the legal system, rewrite the laws, and stack all government ministries with loyal functionaries to facilitate the triumphant return of their beloved leader as if he was Julius Caesar in the year 45 BC, as if he had never broke the law.
Ahhh. We can breathe easier now. Despite the hysterical screaming of the foreign media as the fever reached its peak, the patient (the body politic) has just passed through the final fever, is now on the path to recovery, and will soon be standing on his feet again. Amen.
Report on last night’s clash
Time for the PAD to disperse and go home, following the judicial conviction of Samak Sundaravej for conflict of interest. There is no more point to their continuing the protests . . . and the longer PAD people linger at the Government House, the more imminent the danger of needless violence flaring up.
After PAD disperses, the PAD leaders should immediatley and peacefully surrender themselves to the police to face charges.
Constitutional madness
Thaksin’s ethical lapses were legendary Jim Taylor, but you are in denial as usual. Thaksin went into self-exile once his wife Potjaman was convicted of tax evasion Jim Taylor. And Thaksin immediately knew his ‘honest mistakes’ plea won’t sway the Thai courts the next time around.
Perhaps Thaksin’s crocodile tears could convince the UK courts to grant him the asylum he seeks. . . who knows? That should cheer you up Jim Taylor.
Constitutional madness
False comparison.
On one hand, you stage a coup. So by definition, you’re out of law.
On the other hand, a rule was broken.
Now, of course, we can argue : the conflict of interests is rather… small.
But, do you want to abide by the law, or not ?
It’s time for the thai politicians to respect the law, and nothing but the law.
The PAD should do it. And Samak too.
The decision of the Court is technical. They’re right.
The decision of the (same) Court in 2001 in favor of Thaksin was not technical (assets concealment case). But political (we can’t ban the man who won a landslide elections a few months earlier, let’s give him a chance).
And a that time, Thaksin was guilty to the bone (he put hundred of millions THB of assets in his employees names… Nominees).
So should we complain ?
Constitutional madness
Predictable -with a court stacked last year by Khor Mor Chor & Democrat Party cronies…No wonder Thaksin has to stay away with such a disgraceful and corrupt judiciary
Thai crisis. Royal silence.
Thanks for those quotes karmablue. Seems like McCargo is pretty even handed with both sides in his argument. it’s too bad that people have turned the phrase “network monarchy” into a negative thing since in many ways it seems that this network is what held Thailand together and made it strong and prosperous for all those years. Thaksin was wrong to displace it as he did in the name of “democracy.”
Anyway, who’s going to be the next Prime Minister?
The court just ruled against Samak.
A season for stunts
Change did come about in 1997 in the form of a popular and progressive constitution that handed power from an unelected elite to the people. In practice it seemed to have some minor flaws that could have been adjusted, but the PAD and their supporters haven’t once pursued the “fix it” route, instead opting for “throw it out”.
It seems clear that their strategy has resulted in three more lost years for the people of Thailand. Nothing the PAD or their ex-junta allies has dome in any small way has addressed the core issues they claim to be obsessed with.
Thailand has weak institutions and poor law enforcement. A group of elite tearing down institutions and breaking laws hardly seems like a cure.
Samak brutally represses PAD by proposing that the people decide (again)!
Ok, just came to clear something up: my comment was totally sarcastic. It was meant to point that what ever happens, I am 110% sure that there is yet again groups screaming VOTE BUYING and protesting on streets.
I dont try to neglect the problem of vote buying but just saying that it is such a stick to throw at, even without any proof. And happens everytime someone does not like vote results, true or not.
A season for stunts
Jumlong would do a lot more good applying his vast experience in government service to more constructive purposes, instead of rendering disservice to the country.
29.8.2008: The destruction of lawful society
A great anti-hegemonic post, Nick! The truth needs to be told. Unfortunately, in the present mass media situation in Thailand, this is going to be confined to blogs with very limited audiences.
A season for stunts
Sounds all quite nice, except that you are asking the PAD to act contrary to its raison d’etre, and its core strategies. They have already rejected all suggestions about entering the parliamentary mainstream (although, of course, they can change their minds), because they think that it is rotten to the core (they have waited since the early 1990s that change would come about by regular means). That’s why they have targeted the very top of the political system and systematically built up their bargaining power. The PAD has come to the point where they hold all the trump cards in their hands–a huge amount of political capital for negotiations. The PAD has taken great risks, and spent huge amount of money, to get into this position. Why then should they leave the scene empty-handed?
Thai crisis. Royal silence.
That was a very good post from ‘karmablues’. It helps to explain why every single TRT/PPP party members pledge undying allegiance to their Beloved Leader Thaksin Shinawatra or his designated proxy Samak Sundaravej.
The uneducated and the constipated rural people would have no way of comprehending what toxic leadership from Thaksin Shinawatra and proxy Samak Sundaravej means. They can only remember the ‘goodies’ or handouts from Thaksin, but would have no way of understanding the dangers of toxic leadership.
Jim Taylor seems to be an educated man . . . seems to be because Jim Taylor can bloviate endlesslessly in defense of Thaksin’s toxic leadership.
Thai crisis. Royal silence.
“I hope he is not kicked out on a cooking show ambiguity / technicality – that would be a travesty after walking the tightrope for so long now!”
Same with me. It would sound kind of ridiculous, even if it was technically correct, but being technically correct is what the law is about. Legal decisions are not about public opinion, although some powerful politician I guess could quickly rewrite all the laws based on the mandate of the rural masses and feel fully justified, although this seems ipso facto proof why Bangkok should be in full control of the country and not the two demographically strong rural swing regions of the north and northeast, as is the case now.
The appeal on the two year jail term that Samak currently faces (and was facing when he was elected) will be decided on September 25th. Supporting the sentence wouldn’t be unreasonable and would provide a clear message to people who consider themselves above the law because they are VIPs.
29.8.2008: The destruction of lawful society
Jim Taylor: Sorry for not being politically correct, but it should be clear my above (medical treatment) comment did not relate to the dead man , and it was not intended to offend the victims or their families.
I offer my condolences to all the victims and their families (on both sides), and also my condemnation of your leaders (on both sides).
A sad state of affairs
29.8.2008: The destruction of lawful society
Hey “canon fodder”?? that frankly is an ignorant and indecent comment to make in these circumstances. It reflects the attitude of the fascist PAD contingent. FYI, here is how the Bangkokpost (which the likes of readers such as yourself rely for information) reported the death on 2 September:
“The dead man was identified as Narongsak Kothaisong, 55, of Nakhon Ratchasima, who had just arrived in Bangkok to support the PAD on Monday”!!!
Thailand? Siam? Who cares?
A change of a name ( especialy when changing the name of a country)
can have an amazing effect. And that is what i think the scholars are trying to suggest. since a government was created in thailand in 1932 , at last count there have been 18 coups . And when i think of future coups that will take place , the change of name is just the beginning for future decisions that will be made on the behalf of thai people. I also believe that what effects the people of thailand can cause a ripple for the rest of the developed world. So its not just in the interest of the thais only. !!! lets hope things improve for the better.