Sidh: “I agree with GenAnupong’s analyis of the event – this is a “political conflict” between two group of Bangkok/urban-based elites – one advocating ‘business’ as usual while another wanting radical, even if undemocratic, clean politics.”
Thank you, Sidh, for that insightful analysis.
As usual it cuts through the reams of the usual predictable one-sided preconceived notions of foreign public opinion, whether expressed through op-ed pieces, academic comment, or blog entries.
Take for instance Duncan McCargo’s “Network Monarchy” article which is always invoked in a negative fashion to criticise the monarchy (finally got ahold of a copy at the Siam Society).
The article completely ignores economics and the positive goods of Thailand’s stability and development under the rule of the present king, in short the ways in which the institution was effective. Instead the article takes little close to meaningless negative pot-shots at the institution of monarchy.
All politics is networked. So why point out the obvious? The title itself “Network Monarchy” amounts to a bit of personal branding on the part of the author himself.
Thaksin used elections to weaken this institution. PAD is using non-electoral means to strengthen it once again (and in that respect, it most likely has support from the military). Calling it “fascist” as some do simply misses the point.
Goodness me, to see Anand Panyachun, the great propagandist for the palace, quoted as fact is amazing, especially following the 2006 coup. Impartial? Detached from politics? Non-partisan? No significant analysis supports this view (as has been shown at NM numerous times).
jonfernquest said that ANU academics are likely to laugh at the following Sondhi quote:
“Somebody said ‘don’t the poor have the right to vote,’” Sondhi said. “They do have the right to vote. We also have the right to educate them. Give them access to the information. The problem is they don’t have access to the right information now.”
I doubt ANU academics are laughing. I’d hope that readers would be dismayed or even angray. Here we have the basic issue of PAD’s politics laid bare. Sondhi and his colleagues think it is their right to decide what poor people should be able to do and what kind of education they can have. Arrogant, elitist, neo-fascist. It’s all there in that quote. Thanks for that.
I dont know if Milton Osborne claims to be a Thai specialist but Tej’s departure cannot be connected to the apsirations of otherwise of the king. Tej was feeling the pressure from both sides, government and a division between Prem’s cohorts and the ex-coup boss Sondhi Bung & his PAD aligned interests. Both sides of the anti-government platform want Anupong to take sides and set the stage for a coup but, so far, he is having nothing of this.
A very reliable source informs me that:
“…the official translation is still being finalised…The official Burmese version was finalised in February and sold parsimoniously…according to […] there are a few differences between the Burmese version and the detailed basic principles [which was the document posted to New Mandala]…[but] the SPDC made a few last minute changes.”
I hope that helps clear things up. You are right — this is not the final constitution put to the referendum. As soon as I have any other versions (in either Burmese or English) I will be sure to post them here.
Nick: I also posed the question for 3 main reasons:
1. I understand what you are saying about ‘democracy’ and just thought it might be beneficial for you to take a step back and consider the other view which I would summarise as:
‘Democracy’ does not seem to be working too well with the type of politicians elected in Thailand, so lets try to come up with a new system.
(OK – the model they came up with is wrong, but that does not mean the question was necessarily wrong).
2. I do not think you adequately addressed Sidh’s: While I don’t agree with PAD’s attack on NBT or occupation of the Government House, it baffles me that on the night of the 1st, you probably heard the speech first hand from the UDD leadership inciting violence at Sanam Luang and the order to march 2-3KMS to ATTACK PAD at Government House; you probably marched with this crowd, armed and hungry for blood; you were in right in the middle of the melee – yet you ACCUSE the PAD of being the aggressor!!!???
From my point of view, it is NON OF THE UDD’s business here and let the government, police/military, law courts deal with the PAD. If they want to protest, stay put at Sanam Luang…
3. I am increasingly frustrated that very few commentaters (let alone the actual players) are really interested in a solution, and it seems the only thing of importance is victory.
I am still waiting for my constuctive suggested solutions to be shot down in flames, or better still to be taken on board.
I will try again, and offer this reasonable solution where PPP are seen to be doing the right thing for the people, not giving in to mob rule, and the country will be better off for it:
(1). Samak/PPP acknowledge that the constitutional amendment will be put to a new round of consultation to create a new ‘peoples’ constitution.
(2). PAD then can either go home (hopefully), or if they choose to stubbornly stay, they can be forced home.
That way there are no clear ‘winner take all’ victors, and ultimately the Thai people will be the winners.
Having learned from the past, all sides can put up their views on the constitution problem areas, argue robustly, try to reach consensus, and if that is not achievable, the remaining contentious issues can be decided by the people.
Everybody believes they are impartial, journalists and academics particularly, and politicians and generals more specially.
But everybody seem to agree Thai democracy now needs defending. Thaksin said so, without much conviction because of corruption-extrajudicial killing taint, and Thaksin had a great fall. Thaksin’s nominee Samak Sundaravej also is now saying so . . . and emulating his master Thaksin, Samak Sundaravej also now ludicrously wishes to address and educate the United Nations about the precarious state of Thai democracy (deja vu?). But PAD also believe they too are 70/30 democrats by obstructing mega-corrupts like Thaksin, or his proxy, from completely corrupting Thailand’s political development.
Now outraged Western journalists/academicians like Nick Nostitz or Andrew Walker believe they know more about how Thailand’s democracy should develop . . . and Thailand was/is already in the right path (of development) even with deeply flaswed Thaksin or his proxy Samak at PM. But by what prescience could you both (Nick and Andrew) claim that the obstruction of Thaksin and his proxy Samak Sundaravej, by rather far-out moralistic pretenders,Chamlong/Sondhi, was Thailand’s unique ‘breakers’ to dangerous politics under the guise of democracy?
Thaksin’s and Samak’s self-seeking democracy versions are very dangerous, have no doubt about that. When vote-buying, intimidation, thugs (Reds) and deep corruption culture are encouraged (backbone of Thaksin/Samak democracy version), Thailand will rapidly be consumed by the poisons these politicians inflict on the land.
Chamlong and Sondhi’s PAD will NOT get very far with their ridiculous 70-30 democracy idea. But they have already succeeded with educating the Thais that politicians like Thaksin and Samak, parties like TRT and PPP, when in power endanger the future of Thailand.
The Thais will now make their own history . . . with or without bloodshed . . . and we all can only bear witness and pass judgement . . .
Val, how you or other anti-sanctions could prove that sanctions have done more harm to people in Burma? Surely, you and other critics will point out to the impacts on garment industry after US establishment of Burma Freedom and Democracy Act in 2003. Yes, thousands of female employees lost their jobs after BFDA came into effect and further as some observers claimed, many of them enetred into sex industry. Yet, there were wide discrepancies in the figures of unemployed from 30,000 to 100,000 0r 300,000. But even the highest figures still not representing majority of the ordinary people and could not be claimed as huge impacts on the civilians. What about the unemployed girls in the sex industry? No one encouraged them to go into sex industry and prostitution is not the only alternative for income in a country like Burma where majority of people live on the informal or gray economy. If the prostitution is sole opportunity apart from working in the garment industry or foreign firms, every single unemployed girl in Burma is in the risk of becoming prostitutes?Did every body know that OSS (Office of Strategic Studies) under the Defence Ministry of Burma played a critical role in organising petition against US sanctions and fabricating numbers of job-loss? Have you ever watched BBC hidden camera interview with an official from Garment Industry Association?
Just think about the ethnic girls as young as seven are raped by the Burmese soldiers while some of unemployed girls went for prostitution though various factors are contributed from moral characters to the junta’s blind eyes on the industry. Further, the junta promoted sex industry by allowing more night clubs in cities across the country and the scandals of high ranking junta’s officials with the sluts from show business are widely known.
It is unbelieveable that no one in this debate replies about the release of political prisoners and Suu Kyi for genuine dialogue.
Some people claim that civil society needs to be strengthened and living standard, as Val mentioned, needs to be promoted first. As long as the economy is in the hands of the junta, majority of people will not be able to build up a strong society. We support the US targeted sanctions significantly from 2007 after the bloody crackdowns in September. Do you still want to say that the businessman like Tayza, blacklisted by the US is an ordinary citizen of Burma?
What about diplomatic option? While the regional countries’ constructive engagement did not work for the last twenty years, thousands of people have been wiped out in their own land, villages relocated or destroyed, innocent civilians were brutally killed and young girls are raped and burnt alive or mutilated to death.
Should we still wait for another twenty years of diplomatic solution when one or two of ethnic minorites would have been entirely wiped off by the junta by that time?
Nick: As you are a photo-journalist, may I suggest that you stand back and consider whether you are truly impartial in this matter.
I second nganadeeleg on that. Nothing wrong with that Nick,
I like what Sidh is saying – let the Government Make a Forum!
Let Thailand have a National Forum where Yellows and Reds can come up and give all the information – Free information [How bad Toxin+PPP have been, How bad PAD have been] and very democratic. Then people are left to decide what they want to choose.
I bet 1,000,000,000,000,000% that the Democratic Republic of Deutschland (TRT/PPP) will not want their “Reds” to have access to this information, having benefited from Controlled Information they have for the Reds –remember the pushback PAD received at Udon?.
Yellows always had mainstream Government media, and only when they hit PAD information, they get hooked — they were never imposed to believe in stuff from PAD.
Ok, lets let the Courts decide . [meanwhile the Academics and Students happily join PAD … ]
“Whatever that is wrong with Thai politics and society, we 60 million plus people all have a hand in it – we are responsible for it.
We make Thailand. Not just Thaksin. Not just Samak. But all 60 million plus of us.
Samak is not worth one act of violence, not worth one drop of blood, not worth a single tear. He is not even worth the insults and hates the PAD throw at him each and every day.
Take to the streets and protest for the right reason: march not because we hate Samak, rather march because we love Thailand.
What we do in life each and every day, individually and collectively, is what will change our country, for better or for worse.
We should continue to fight corrupt politicians. But if we truly want better things for Thailand, the change starts with us, the Thai people.”
Indeed! March to create new politics, rather than waiting for it to be handed down. Sonthi, Chumlong, Samak & Thaksin and ‘im indoors’ only want your support for their own benefit.
David Brown, I’ve not argued that the King has said anything, my opinion is that the military would support the King before an elected official. For Thailand to be a ‘constitutional monarchy’, the constitution needs to come before the monarchy. People in Thailand are instead subject to a monarchial constitution, where everyone tries to guess and then use the King’s constitution, against anyone who opposes them. Keeping his beliefs quiet, only allows for this “we act in the name of the King” ridiculousness going. Samak has now started using the King as a political tool. It has the same practicality as spiritual interpretation.
I thought this was worth reading for those with an open mind (should there be any out there any more) from an independent journalist Tavivoot talking about the “grotesqueness of Thailand” at this time.. (I have edited this for clarity):
‘Today the rich Thais are exploiting the weakness of the poor Thais to such a great extent that the Economist has just called the leaders of PAD, a grouping of rich and influential Thais, as grotesque. PAD is trying to topple the Samak government with its roots in the rural areas and among poor Thais.
Most of the upper class and rich Thais are on PAD side, and this includes most of the press, academic world, businessmen and those with royal blood. This PAD group has been calling poor Thais a lot of things like buffaloes, stupid and un-educated, and accuse them of not understanding democracy because many of them sell their votes. And thus the middle & upper class Thais support PAD’s new politics, which BBC calls “anti-democratic”, where power of government lies in the hands of a few influential Thais who know best…
That position may be ugly enough, but what makes it really grotesque is the difference between how the rich and the poor are treated in their respective positions in the recent protest.
Rewind Thai history back a few years when the rich supporting 2006 coup was in power, and you will see NorPorKor (anti-Dictatorship, pro-government group) –made up of democratic minded folks and lower class Thais go marching on the privy council house who is believed to have engineered the “good” coup (sorry Kevin and Duncan!), and the military and police just attacked the marchers at the house with such force that it left hundreds bloodied, including old men and women. The press, and the complacent middle and upper classes just stood there and condemned the march welcoming the crack-down with comments such as “how dare you march on the house of such a high ranking Thai” (General Prem- the Puppet Master).
Then fast-forward Thai history up to a few days ago, when NorPorKor clashed with PAD guards killing a NorPorKor man (yes it WAS a pro-government marcher who was killed and not as reported in the media a PAD thug!), and then the grotesqueness appears in all its glory. The upper classes, academics, businessmen and middle class Thais (especially those who sit in front of Sondhi’s ASTV soapy with its 24 hour brainwashing), came out in droves to condemn NorPorKor and the government of PM Samak (which represents the interests of rural and poor Thais)-for resorting to confrontation and violence!
And if you wish to just see how really grotesque the whole thing is in Thailand, PAD is occupying Government House illegally and with arrest warrants for its leaders. Now the elites and middle classes just say “we are the good and righteous people and thus the law doesn’t apply to us”. At the same time academics and the media saying things like-“protesting is a right under democracy”!
Compare all this to Thaksin who was booted out of office by these elites and conservatives just because he was suspected of being corrupt (mostly trumped up charges) despite unsubstantiated evidence. As well, his whole Party was forced to disband. And now Samak is under the same accusation as happened to Thaksin: that he is corrupt and that he must go. When Thaksin went, there was not a single case or court ruling against him. And Samak today keeps asking “what have I done wrong?” Again there is no ruling against him whatsoever.
Or, again compare it to how NorPorKor was treated at the house of Prem-with tear gas and batons and how the military and police now say dislodging those illegally occupying Government House and arresting the leaders under the warrants “may just hurt too many people”! The grotesqueness of Thais at this time is sad. Maybe foreigners should change the slogan from Thailand is the land of smiles, to Thailand the land of the grotesque.’
BTW, Suthin’s 3 questions quoted in this blog are not useful: (1) & (2) cannot be given a ‘yes/no’ answer; (1) is unconstitutional; (2) would not prevent further action from PAD; (3) is not simple, and would require a long information campaign.
All this speculation about what the referendum questions should be seems to me to be missing the point: It’s basically a political exercise to give legitimacy to the removal of PAD by whatever means.
Electoral authorities have given the opinion that a referendum cannot, according to the constitution, replace an election. Confirming an election result is really almost the same as having an election, so it’s out of the question. As has been stated, it’s “unconstitutional.”
If legitimising the existence of the government were the point, the Constitution presents a clear way of doing it: dissolve parliament & call new elections. It’s obvious that if this course were taken, there would be a boycott by opposition parties, & a possible repeat of the last debacle, so IMO Samak will avoid it at all costs.
What Samak needs, in the present situation, is a clear mandate from the people to remove the protesters, and absolutely stop their activities. This will obviously require force of various kinds, and it’s very clearly been shown to be not possible at the moment. A referendum, cleverly and very simply worded will give the government indisputable evidence that the electorate is behind them. This could quite possibly lead to the establishment of a ‘police state.’
I constantly think about my “impartiality” in this situation.
One thing to consider – my role as a journalist is within the confines of a Democracy, sort of the fourth estate of a Democracy. Without Democracy – there can be no impartial journalism, there will be no guaranteed rights and freedoms of speech.
PAD aims to replace Democracy with their “New Politics” – and this is is the same sort of Democracy in name only as, for example, East Germany called itself “German Democratic Republic” but in fact was a Stalinist dictatorship.
PAD has already proven sufficiently to me, that they have very little respect for impartial journalism, critical questions are not permitted, are discouraged, journalists are threatened regularly at rally sites.
I am bound by the laws of a democracy. PAD has set itself completely apart, is because of the ongoing illegal and unprecedented occupation of Government House completely outside any constitutional right to demonstrate.
Furthemore – their actions are already affecting the poorest of the poor already. And that i see as maybe my most important role as an engaged journalist – giving a voice to those sectors that are threatened by exploitation.
In my wife’s village, the poor can’t find day labor anymore. The quarry in which my wife’s brother works is on strike, and he sits at home – broke. Farmers can’t sell their produce anymore because the mill labors are on strike, and of course therefore they can’t hire harvest labor. Not that most of these workers want to strike, but the Unions ordered it.
My “impartiality” is within the confines of a democracy, and it does not include a group that is completely outside it, and furthermore, tramples over the rights of the weakest of society.
Of course, i am very uncomfortable with the resulting almost anarchic actions of pro-government forces – but read me – these are logical reactions to the present situation that were initiated by the decision of the PAD to leave the confines of constitutional resistance to a government they don’t support, including the dismantling of the legal system y their not anymore that shady backers – parts of the army, the Democrat Party, certain members of the Senate, and other social conservative forces.
I would have no professional problem with PAD camping in, let’s say, Lumphini Park, and staging from there regular marches. I might not like their aims, but that would be within their constitutional right. But that they have left behind the day they started at Makhawan Bridge, the moment they have built an countrywide underground network with the aim to topple the democratic system.
Everyone, including Andrew have missed an important point: The king is not as autonomous or powerful as people/scholars make him out to be. His power is symbolic and that symbols can be used by whoever for whatever purpose…Hence the various interpretations of what the king said (or did not say). His public presentations (other than ceremonial events) are stage managed by close Privy Councillors especially and importantly Puppet Master Prem. In fact, Prem asked the king to come out in 1992 and mediate between Chamlong and Suchinda. He is certainly not going to arrange for him coming out now in the likelihood that intervention would see PAD fail- something that Prem and his conservative lackeys aligned with the Democrats do not want to happen at any cost…
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Thai crisis. Royal silence.
Sidh: “I agree with GenAnupong’s analyis of the event – this is a “political conflict” between two group of Bangkok/urban-based elites – one advocating ‘business’ as usual while another wanting radical, even if undemocratic, clean politics.”
Thank you, Sidh, for that insightful analysis.
As usual it cuts through the reams of the usual predictable one-sided preconceived notions of foreign public opinion, whether expressed through op-ed pieces, academic comment, or blog entries.
Take for instance Duncan McCargo’s “Network Monarchy” article which is always invoked in a negative fashion to criticise the monarchy (finally got ahold of a copy at the Siam Society).
The article completely ignores economics and the positive goods of Thailand’s stability and development under the rule of the present king, in short the ways in which the institution was effective. Instead the article takes little close to meaningless negative pot-shots at the institution of monarchy.
All politics is networked. So why point out the obvious? The title itself “Network Monarchy” amounts to a bit of personal branding on the part of the author himself.
Thaksin used elections to weaken this institution. PAD is using non-electoral means to strengthen it once again (and in that respect, it most likely has support from the military). Calling it “fascist” as some do simply misses the point.
Samak brutally represses PAD by proposing that the people decide (again)!
Reminds me of another quote:
“The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.“
“Has the Thai king had enough?”
Goodness me, to see Anand Panyachun, the great propagandist for the palace, quoted as fact is amazing, especially following the 2006 coup. Impartial? Detached from politics? Non-partisan? No significant analysis supports this view (as has been shown at NM numerous times).
Samak brutally represses PAD by proposing that the people decide (again)!
jonfernquest said that ANU academics are likely to laugh at the following Sondhi quote:
“Somebody said ‘don’t the poor have the right to vote,’” Sondhi said. “They do have the right to vote. We also have the right to educate them. Give them access to the information. The problem is they don’t have access to the right information now.”
I doubt ANU academics are laughing. I’d hope that readers would be dismayed or even angray. Here we have the basic issue of PAD’s politics laid bare. Sondhi and his colleagues think it is their right to decide what poor people should be able to do and what kind of education they can have. Arrogant, elitist, neo-fascist. It’s all there in that quote. Thanks for that.
“Has the Thai king had enough?”
I dont know if Milton Osborne claims to be a Thai specialist but Tej’s departure cannot be connected to the apsirations of otherwise of the king. Tej was feeling the pressure from both sides, government and a division between Prem’s cohorts and the ex-coup boss Sondhi Bung & his PAD aligned interests. Both sides of the anti-government platform want Anupong to take sides and set the stage for a coup but, so far, he is having nothing of this.
Burma’s draft 2008 constitution
Hi Ken, and other interested readers,
A very reliable source informs me that:
“…the official translation is still being finalised…The official Burmese version was finalised in February and sold parsimoniously…according to […] there are a few differences between the Burmese version and the detailed basic principles [which was the document posted to New Mandala]…[but] the SPDC made a few last minute changes.”
I hope that helps clear things up. You are right — this is not the final constitution put to the referendum. As soon as I have any other versions (in either Burmese or English) I will be sure to post them here.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Report on last night’s clash
Nick: I also posed the question for 3 main reasons:
1. I understand what you are saying about ‘democracy’ and just thought it might be beneficial for you to take a step back and consider the other view which I would summarise as:
‘Democracy’ does not seem to be working too well with the type of politicians elected in Thailand, so lets try to come up with a new system.
(OK – the model they came up with is wrong, but that does not mean the question was necessarily wrong).
2. I do not think you adequately addressed Sidh’s:
While I don’t agree with PAD’s attack on NBT or occupation of the Government House, it baffles me that on the night of the 1st, you probably heard the speech first hand from the UDD leadership inciting violence at Sanam Luang and the order to march 2-3KMS to ATTACK PAD at Government House; you probably marched with this crowd, armed and hungry for blood; you were in right in the middle of the melee – yet you ACCUSE the PAD of being the aggressor!!!???
From my point of view, it is NON OF THE UDD’s business here and let the government, police/military, law courts deal with the PAD. If they want to protest, stay put at Sanam Luang…
3. I am increasingly frustrated that very few commentaters (let alone the actual players) are really interested in a solution, and it seems the only thing of importance is victory.
I am still waiting for my constuctive suggested solutions to be shot down in flames, or better still to be taken on board.
I will try again, and offer this reasonable solution where PPP are seen to be doing the right thing for the people, not giving in to mob rule, and the country will be better off for it:
(1). Samak/PPP acknowledge that the constitutional amendment will be put to a new round of consultation to create a new ‘peoples’ constitution.
(2). PAD then can either go home (hopefully), or if they choose to stubbornly stay, they can be forced home.
That way there are no clear ‘winner take all’ victors, and ultimately the Thai people will be the winners.
Having learned from the past, all sides can put up their views on the constitution problem areas, argue robustly, try to reach consensus, and if that is not achievable, the remaining contentious issues can be decided by the people.
Is that not a way forward?
Voranai Vanijaka takes aim at the context
So speaks the voice of sanity in a country full of lunatics, shame no one will listen, and when will it be printed in THAI
Report on last night’s clash
Everybody believes they are impartial, journalists and academics particularly, and politicians and generals more specially.
But everybody seem to agree Thai democracy now needs defending. Thaksin said so, without much conviction because of corruption-extrajudicial killing taint, and Thaksin had a great fall. Thaksin’s nominee Samak Sundaravej also is now saying so . . . and emulating his master Thaksin, Samak Sundaravej also now ludicrously wishes to address and educate the United Nations about the precarious state of Thai democracy (deja vu?). But PAD also believe they too are 70/30 democrats by obstructing mega-corrupts like Thaksin, or his proxy, from completely corrupting Thailand’s political development.
Now outraged Western journalists/academicians like Nick Nostitz or Andrew Walker believe they know more about how Thailand’s democracy should develop . . . and Thailand was/is already in the right path (of development) even with deeply flaswed Thaksin or his proxy Samak at PM. But by what prescience could you both (Nick and Andrew) claim that the obstruction of Thaksin and his proxy Samak Sundaravej, by rather far-out moralistic pretenders,Chamlong/Sondhi, was Thailand’s unique ‘breakers’ to dangerous politics under the guise of democracy?
Thaksin’s and Samak’s self-seeking democracy versions are very dangerous, have no doubt about that. When vote-buying, intimidation, thugs (Reds) and deep corruption culture are encouraged (backbone of Thaksin/Samak democracy version), Thailand will rapidly be consumed by the poisons these politicians inflict on the land.
Chamlong and Sondhi’s PAD will NOT get very far with their ridiculous 70-30 democracy idea. But they have already succeeded with educating the Thais that politicians like Thaksin and Samak, parties like TRT and PPP, when in power endanger the future of Thailand.
The Thais will now make their own history . . . with or without bloodshed . . . and we all can only bear witness and pass judgement . . .
Interview with Burma’s Ma Thanegi
Val, how you or other anti-sanctions could prove that sanctions have done more harm to people in Burma? Surely, you and other critics will point out to the impacts on garment industry after US establishment of Burma Freedom and Democracy Act in 2003. Yes, thousands of female employees lost their jobs after BFDA came into effect and further as some observers claimed, many of them enetred into sex industry. Yet, there were wide discrepancies in the figures of unemployed from 30,000 to 100,000 0r 300,000. But even the highest figures still not representing majority of the ordinary people and could not be claimed as huge impacts on the civilians. What about the unemployed girls in the sex industry? No one encouraged them to go into sex industry and prostitution is not the only alternative for income in a country like Burma where majority of people live on the informal or gray economy. If the prostitution is sole opportunity apart from working in the garment industry or foreign firms, every single unemployed girl in Burma is in the risk of becoming prostitutes?Did every body know that OSS (Office of Strategic Studies) under the Defence Ministry of Burma played a critical role in organising petition against US sanctions and fabricating numbers of job-loss? Have you ever watched BBC hidden camera interview with an official from Garment Industry Association?
Just think about the ethnic girls as young as seven are raped by the Burmese soldiers while some of unemployed girls went for prostitution though various factors are contributed from moral characters to the junta’s blind eyes on the industry. Further, the junta promoted sex industry by allowing more night clubs in cities across the country and the scandals of high ranking junta’s officials with the sluts from show business are widely known.
It is unbelieveable that no one in this debate replies about the release of political prisoners and Suu Kyi for genuine dialogue.
Some people claim that civil society needs to be strengthened and living standard, as Val mentioned, needs to be promoted first. As long as the economy is in the hands of the junta, majority of people will not be able to build up a strong society. We support the US targeted sanctions significantly from 2007 after the bloody crackdowns in September. Do you still want to say that the businessman like Tayza, blacklisted by the US is an ordinary citizen of Burma?
What about diplomatic option? While the regional countries’ constructive engagement did not work for the last twenty years, thousands of people have been wiped out in their own land, villages relocated or destroyed, innocent civilians were brutally killed and young girls are raped and burnt alive or mutilated to death.
Should we still wait for another twenty years of diplomatic solution when one or two of ethnic minorites would have been entirely wiped off by the junta by that time?
Report on last night’s clash
Nick: As you are a photo-journalist, may I suggest that you stand back and consider whether you are truly impartial in this matter.
I second nganadeeleg on that. Nothing wrong with that Nick,
I like what Sidh is saying – let the Government Make a Forum!
Let Thailand have a National Forum where Yellows and Reds can come up and give all the information – Free information [How bad Toxin+PPP have been, How bad PAD have been] and very democratic. Then people are left to decide what they want to choose.
I bet 1,000,000,000,000,000% that the Democratic Republic of Deutschland (TRT/PPP) will not want their “Reds” to have access to this information, having benefited from Controlled Information they have for the Reds –remember the pushback PAD received at Udon?.
Yellows always had mainstream Government media, and only when they hit PAD information, they get hooked — they were never imposed to believe in stuff from PAD.
Ok, lets let the Courts decide . [meanwhile the Academics and Students happily join PAD … ]
Voranai Vanijaka takes aim at the context
“Whatever that is wrong with Thai politics and society, we 60 million plus people all have a hand in it – we are responsible for it.
We make Thailand. Not just Thaksin. Not just Samak. But all 60 million plus of us.
Samak is not worth one act of violence, not worth one drop of blood, not worth a single tear. He is not even worth the insults and hates the PAD throw at him each and every day.
Take to the streets and protest for the right reason: march not because we hate Samak, rather march because we love Thailand.
What we do in life each and every day, individually and collectively, is what will change our country, for better or for worse.
We should continue to fight corrupt politicians. But if we truly want better things for Thailand, the change starts with us, the Thai people.”
Indeed! March to create new politics, rather than waiting for it to be handed down. Sonthi, Chumlong, Samak & Thaksin and ‘im indoors’ only want your support for their own benefit.
Voranai Vanijaka takes aim at the context
Aah, sanity!! Mirabile dictu! Goodonyer, Nich, for putting this in. Anyone know who Voranai is?
“Has the Thai king had enough?”
David Brown, I’ve not argued that the King has said anything, my opinion is that the military would support the King before an elected official. For Thailand to be a ‘constitutional monarchy’, the constitution needs to come before the monarchy. People in Thailand are instead subject to a monarchial constitution, where everyone tries to guess and then use the King’s constitution, against anyone who opposes them. Keeping his beliefs quiet, only allows for this “we act in the name of the King” ridiculousness going. Samak has now started using the King as a political tool. It has the same practicality as spiritual interpretation.
Samak brutally represses PAD by proposing that the people decide (again)!
I thought this was worth reading for those with an open mind (should there be any out there any more) from an independent journalist Tavivoot talking about the “grotesqueness of Thailand” at this time.. (I have edited this for clarity):
‘Today the rich Thais are exploiting the weakness of the poor Thais to such a great extent that the Economist has just called the leaders of PAD, a grouping of rich and influential Thais, as grotesque. PAD is trying to topple the Samak government with its roots in the rural areas and among poor Thais.
Most of the upper class and rich Thais are on PAD side, and this includes most of the press, academic world, businessmen and those with royal blood. This PAD group has been calling poor Thais a lot of things like buffaloes, stupid and un-educated, and accuse them of not understanding democracy because many of them sell their votes. And thus the middle & upper class Thais support PAD’s new politics, which BBC calls “anti-democratic”, where power of government lies in the hands of a few influential Thais who know best…
That position may be ugly enough, but what makes it really grotesque is the difference between how the rich and the poor are treated in their respective positions in the recent protest.
Rewind Thai history back a few years when the rich supporting 2006 coup was in power, and you will see NorPorKor (anti-Dictatorship, pro-government group) –made up of democratic minded folks and lower class Thais go marching on the privy council house who is believed to have engineered the “good” coup (sorry Kevin and Duncan!), and the military and police just attacked the marchers at the house with such force that it left hundreds bloodied, including old men and women. The press, and the complacent middle and upper classes just stood there and condemned the march welcoming the crack-down with comments such as “how dare you march on the house of such a high ranking Thai” (General Prem- the Puppet Master).
Then fast-forward Thai history up to a few days ago, when NorPorKor clashed with PAD guards killing a NorPorKor man (yes it WAS a pro-government marcher who was killed and not as reported in the media a PAD thug!), and then the grotesqueness appears in all its glory. The upper classes, academics, businessmen and middle class Thais (especially those who sit in front of Sondhi’s ASTV soapy with its 24 hour brainwashing), came out in droves to condemn NorPorKor and the government of PM Samak (which represents the interests of rural and poor Thais)-for resorting to confrontation and violence!
And if you wish to just see how really grotesque the whole thing is in Thailand, PAD is occupying Government House illegally and with arrest warrants for its leaders. Now the elites and middle classes just say “we are the good and righteous people and thus the law doesn’t apply to us”. At the same time academics and the media saying things like-“protesting is a right under democracy”!
Compare all this to Thaksin who was booted out of office by these elites and conservatives just because he was suspected of being corrupt (mostly trumped up charges) despite unsubstantiated evidence. As well, his whole Party was forced to disband. And now Samak is under the same accusation as happened to Thaksin: that he is corrupt and that he must go. When Thaksin went, there was not a single case or court ruling against him. And Samak today keeps asking “what have I done wrong?” Again there is no ruling against him whatsoever.
Or, again compare it to how NorPorKor was treated at the house of Prem-with tear gas and batons and how the military and police now say dislodging those illegally occupying Government House and arresting the leaders under the warrants “may just hurt too many people”! The grotesqueness of Thais at this time is sad. Maybe foreigners should change the slogan from Thailand is the land of smiles, to Thailand the land of the grotesque.’
http://thaiintelligentnews.wordpress.com/
Samak brutally represses PAD by proposing that the people decide (again)!
BTW, Suthin’s 3 questions quoted in this blog are not useful: (1) & (2) cannot be given a ‘yes/no’ answer; (1) is unconstitutional; (2) would not prevent further action from PAD; (3) is not simple, and would require a long information campaign.
Samak brutally represses PAD by proposing that the people decide (again)!
All this speculation about what the referendum questions should be seems to me to be missing the point: It’s basically a political exercise to give legitimacy to the removal of PAD by whatever means.
Electoral authorities have given the opinion that a referendum cannot, according to the constitution, replace an election. Confirming an election result is really almost the same as having an election, so it’s out of the question. As has been stated, it’s “unconstitutional.”
If legitimising the existence of the government were the point, the Constitution presents a clear way of doing it: dissolve parliament & call new elections. It’s obvious that if this course were taken, there would be a boycott by opposition parties, & a possible repeat of the last debacle, so IMO Samak will avoid it at all costs.
What Samak needs, in the present situation, is a clear mandate from the people to remove the protesters, and absolutely stop their activities. This will obviously require force of various kinds, and it’s very clearly been shown to be not possible at the moment. A referendum, cleverly and very simply worded will give the government indisputable evidence that the electorate is behind them. This could quite possibly lead to the establishment of a ‘police state.’
“Has the Thai king had enough?”
Spooky paranormal Samak quote :
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/read.php?newsid=30082782
Breakingnews
Hail falling at Government House not normal: Samak
Published on September 7, 2008
Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej said Sunday that he has never seen hail falling at Government House once in his life until Friday.
He said his disagreed with the Meteorological Department which said the hail fall was a normal phenomenon.
“It’s definitely not normal. I’ve never seen anything like this in my 73 years of living,” Samak said.
The Nation
——————————————————————————–
Privacy Policy ┬й 2006 Nation Multimedia Group
September 7, 2008 01:21 pm (Thai local time)
http://www.nationmultimedia.com
Report on last night’s clash
“nganadeeleg”:
I constantly think about my “impartiality” in this situation.
One thing to consider – my role as a journalist is within the confines of a Democracy, sort of the fourth estate of a Democracy. Without Democracy – there can be no impartial journalism, there will be no guaranteed rights and freedoms of speech.
PAD aims to replace Democracy with their “New Politics” – and this is is the same sort of Democracy in name only as, for example, East Germany called itself “German Democratic Republic” but in fact was a Stalinist dictatorship.
PAD has already proven sufficiently to me, that they have very little respect for impartial journalism, critical questions are not permitted, are discouraged, journalists are threatened regularly at rally sites.
I am bound by the laws of a democracy. PAD has set itself completely apart, is because of the ongoing illegal and unprecedented occupation of Government House completely outside any constitutional right to demonstrate.
Furthemore – their actions are already affecting the poorest of the poor already. And that i see as maybe my most important role as an engaged journalist – giving a voice to those sectors that are threatened by exploitation.
In my wife’s village, the poor can’t find day labor anymore. The quarry in which my wife’s brother works is on strike, and he sits at home – broke. Farmers can’t sell their produce anymore because the mill labors are on strike, and of course therefore they can’t hire harvest labor. Not that most of these workers want to strike, but the Unions ordered it.
My “impartiality” is within the confines of a democracy, and it does not include a group that is completely outside it, and furthermore, tramples over the rights of the weakest of society.
Of course, i am very uncomfortable with the resulting almost anarchic actions of pro-government forces – but read me – these are logical reactions to the present situation that were initiated by the decision of the PAD to leave the confines of constitutional resistance to a government they don’t support, including the dismantling of the legal system y their not anymore that shady backers – parts of the army, the Democrat Party, certain members of the Senate, and other social conservative forces.
I would have no professional problem with PAD camping in, let’s say, Lumphini Park, and staging from there regular marches. I might not like their aims, but that would be within their constitutional right. But that they have left behind the day they started at Makhawan Bridge, the moment they have built an countrywide underground network with the aim to topple the democratic system.
Thai crisis. Royal silence.
Everyone, including Andrew have missed an important point: The king is not as autonomous or powerful as people/scholars make him out to be. His power is symbolic and that symbols can be used by whoever for whatever purpose…Hence the various interpretations of what the king said (or did not say). His public presentations (other than ceremonial events) are stage managed by close Privy Councillors especially and importantly Puppet Master Prem. In fact, Prem asked the king to come out in 1992 and mediate between Chamlong and Suchinda. He is certainly not going to arrange for him coming out now in the likelihood that intervention would see PAD fail- something that Prem and his conservative lackeys aligned with the Democrats do not want to happen at any cost…