Only one thing is wrong with the house analogy – the PAD is not sitting in their house, they have seized a house that never belonged to them in the first place.
I don’t blame the shooter that much – i blame the ones that have sent him there in the first place.
I agree with you, Ed Norton, that the PAD should stand down, however to date they have shown no sign of doing so.
We need to ask why has the government has been hamstrung in this dispute, when they should have been able to take the high ground.
People can go on all they like about history & ‘other forces’ at play etc etc, but the fact is those forces can be negated IF the government simply acts competently and reasonably.
(just like the 2006 coup would never have been possible if Thaksin had moderated his greed and desire to avoid taxes)
All the government needs to do is get a list of all the PAD grievances.
If they cannot get it from the PAD, they just need to go back to the press releases, or just check the Manager site 🙂
Government media people need to respond to each of the grievances in a proper fashion – most can easily be dismissed, with proper explanations to satisfy all but the most pig headed.
(I suggest if he wants to make himself useful, Jakrapob should be doing this instead of pushing the spin to foreigners)
The one grievance that cannot be easily dismissed without the government appearing arrogant and having an ulterior motive, is the constitutional amendment.
On that matter the government needs to put their best minds at work to come up with a more consultative process, which has the best interests of the country at heart – that should not be difficult to do (unless they dont really want to put the interests of the country first!)
Publicise all of the above widely on TV and radio (including to the PAD rank & file – make letter drops into the protest site if they have to!), give appropriate explanations, set a reasonable deadline for dispersal, follow all legal procedures required, warn people that tear gas might be used and that children should to be evacuated for their own safety etc.
Follow through with the dispersal using minimun force and good planning.
If it goes wrong, they still have the high ground, and have done everything right and have been seen to have tried their hardest to reslove it peacefully.
There’s an abundance of bluster, arrogance, pig headedness, scheming etc, but what’s missing are:
Logic, common sense, competency, reasonableness, compassion.
“The Election Commission’s decision …could fuel suspicions that a Bangkok elite, including elements of the army, bureaucracy, court and palace officials, is conspiring to stifle the country’s fragile democracy.”
Could fuel suspicions? Such a conspiracy theory has been thrown around for a long, long time.
“When many large sectors of society share the same political view for good reasons, this is not a “conspiracy,” it is a demographic phenomenon.
Just like Burma coverage much of the foreign media treats the current political crisis like some insta hobby. Expert quotes provide a lot more insight.
I have to respect some of the comments you have up there. I feel Karmablues has the closest to my understanding of the situation. Here are my comments:
Amberwaves, Dog Lover:
I quote Nganadeeleg “There are conflicting reports and everything is blurred at the moment, but it is hard to escape the fact that whenever the Reds get involved, violence is not far away.” That is the reason I put it in quotes, because you don’t get the true picture until after the fact, when investigations are carried out.
Here’s more insight: “The Reds start at Sanam Luang numbering 15,000 or alot. Most of the non-violent woman in the second lines are ones that are tricked in brought in by having been told they were going to funeral of Yod Rak and disperse before reaching the clash site. Those who reach the clash site number in the thousands”.
More interesting information for NM readers: [ The Reds are clearly fresh recruiters who are paid by the day. In being paid by the day, the PPP recruiters must minimise cost by deploying them into the intended violence right away. This brings a few advantages to PAD: NPK/UDD (drunks) don’t have time to it is easy to blend into the NPK/UDD crowd to get information of their whereabouts; But definitely, it is very hard how big a crowd is; Imagine you’re in wembly stadium, you see a crowd, and wonder — how many people are there in here? Its very hard to count, so estimations can be quite out of the mark ]
Dog Lover, there is so many information from so many news sources who the dead man is, and perhaps maybe there are more than 1 ? [BTW, I am a Dog Lover too]
Conclusion: Only when the Dust Settles, do we know the truth. I or PAD leaders can give as much information as the Dust can reveal. What only matters is, after the dust settles, what is the truth.
Bob: It was quite clear I was talking about the situation “Reports on Last Nights Clash”- at a micro level– which I mean the the UDD (or NPK or the Government Mob) Started this fight by intentionally attacking PAD position.
Its as clear as daylight – Bob, if you and I were adversaries, and our house were 100 meters apart, and I scream in my house “I’m going to slap you Bob!”, and on my way I scream “I’m going to Slap you bob!”, and in front of your house I scream “I’m going to Slap you bob!”, and give you a good Slapping. Naturally, you should give me a good kicking and you can point as clear as daylight, that I started it and go to the Thai Police if you think they still function.
I was not talking about at the Macro-Level, where I might say that Thaksin Started it all by all his own corruption doings, and in distinct to other politicians that flee, he continued his struggle to save his rear-end and wasting all our time in Thailand and discussing in New Mandala.
Nick, I respect you for being in that situation and that facts you have on gun shots. If the shots continued after UDD/NPK retreated, thats a shame on the shooter. [at this point in time, I don’t have more information on the shooter, of if anyone died or was injured from the shots] But as in my analogy up there, it doesn’t stop the fact that, UDD/NPK attacked the PAD position, nor did PAD walk all the way to Sanam luang to do the shooting. And nevertheless I share the same condemnation on Going Offensive, especially the UDD/NPK or gunner.
Ralph: About being a Pawn, I think I am using PAD as a Pawn as opposed as being used (as many silent Thais are using PAD as a Pawn) -I’m using PAD to be my WatchDog of the Government (and hopefully future governments) to protect my and my country’s interests [Don’t forget PAD also represents the Poor]. And I feel I have to contribute to PAD, and thus my appearance and try to involve in some of the rallies. And I feel alot of other Thais should contribute the same.
Conclusion: We (Thais) all use PAD – mostly indirectly. So we should contribute to help them somehow, which is at least support them behind TV.
Guys, I don’t think anyone in PAD likes sitting in the demonstration compound; It is uncomfortable, hot, sticky. The toilets, until recently, were not available. Taking a bath? I don’t know. They travelled from out of provinces, unlike me who stay overnight and take a comfortable bath at the Pathumwan Princess Sports Club or in the comfort of sitting on some clean, dry, private bathroom at home . So I think their doing at their personal levels to ultimately see the end of Thaksinism, and introduction of a Thai Political Watchdog/Bulldog is a sacrifice that I greatly respect and salute to. And I feel they will continue until the objective is met.
And for now, I think PAD is the only vehicle that I can use for corrective action to get the Basic Principles Right [Good Versus Evil, Intelligence vs Blind/Bought, Sustainable vs Short Term ], even though Breaking the Law [which seems to really hits NM’s nerves].
It can be argued that the King has allowed the extreme right to call the shots because it is the only tactic available to prevent a blood bath, the prospect of which concerns him above all. While this has worked reasonably well so far, refusing to condemn the PAD’s tactics of causing serious disruption to the country may not work in the longer term. The PAD is setting a dangerous precedent for political behaviour: if you don’t get the government you want, tear the country apart! If nothing is done, the other side can and will use these tactics when their turn comes. It’s happening already. Perhaps when a few hundred more bus-loads of country people come to town and demand their equal “right” to occupy Government House, he will call both sides off in harsh terms. By condemning them both, he could stop this rot without alienating too much of his own motley power base.
If we considers the history of him and all his speeches, his silence at the moment really says something. I think it would be really good if the king comes out and say something indirectly, as usual, about using him as a brand. This bases on he acted before. Of course if he never said something before, saying something this time is political. But if he spoke on previous disputes and not this one, it can be implied which side he is on.
Still, I’d say not saying something might be good. Especially if not any anti-govt after this. At least, if we want less intervention from him, asking him to intervene is not a good start at all.
Handley is just a foreigner who’s trying to get smart about other nation’s business. We love our King , this is our way of living. Please mind your own social structure & political issues. May be you want to deal with your own problems in USA first. USA is not the WORLD. Do you really have to stick your bossy nose in every country’s business?? PATHETIC.
And all those Thais who disapprove the King, you can just live and die elsewhere but NOT in Thailand.
I call for a new book entitled “The King Never Talks” and being all about the people who have talked ‘for’ and ‘on behalf of’ the king throughout modern Thai history.
More on kusons belief in PAD. The Bangkok Post now confirms: “The dead man was identified as UDD member Narongsak Krobthaisong, 55, the Narenthorn Emergency Response Centre said.” So why was Suriyasai emotional about the death of a PAD demonstrator? Maybe it was the same PAD demonstrator who was “killed” in Udorn a few weeks ago? PAD leaders are opportunists to the nth degree but the faithful believe anything they fabricate.
The point we are making is that the king’s royal brand is in the thick of the current dispute. He should, in our view, withdraw the royal brand from the PAD, not get further involved.
You raise an excellent question/s. I am not answering directly, but thinking out loud and being deeply pessimistic about Thailand. I will get to the question. Maybe compromise is one of the things that holds Thailand back (at least that seems to be the view of the PAD leaders). Is it is at this moment that violence clears away the mess…. I know, we are all supposed to be non-violent and opposed to force, but violence is sometimes a way forward. One things of civil wars and revolutions such as the English Revolution, French Revolution and so on. The problem is that it can also lead into a chasm of destruction and bloody murder and mayhem.
To go more to the question nganadeeleg raises, and being more optimistic, I really think that PAD has to stand down. That way they maintain the potential to bring people out again. If they go for broke now, they risk a total loss. If the government stays, the EC has given the anti-PPP lot a way forward that is using the new judicial force. Of course, PPP people will see this as another example of the elite ganging up against them, but it buys everyone some time and cools things off for a while. And it preserves parliament.
But it also puts off the big issues – Thaksin (and he seems cashed up again!), monarchy), form of representation. But they are probably better dealt with through some kind of independent inquiry into the events of the PAD rebellion.
In Thailand where I live (a tourist area), what is noticeable is that in recent days local Thais seem to have stopped wearing yellow and red shirts and most T.V.s are now turned to soaps or sports.
This approach is probably one of self-preservation and conflict avoidance.
That said, it is time to get the mob out of government house and before magistrates where they belong.
Samak has played his hand well. It is time to let him take off the white gloves.
Lets hope the police, the soldiers, and the courts can do it with the least amount of bloodshed.
Then get the discussions back into Parliament where they belong in a democracy.
Neither side seems able to reflect on the bigger picure in a non partisan way (and IMO that includes most media & academics).
The point scoring continues, but where are the constructive proposals – even on this supposedly ‘academic’ blog it rarely moves beyond:
‘Samak must resign, he is a proxy of Thaksin’
‘Samak was elected, you cannot disenfranchise the voters’
‘Reds started it’ or ‘Yellows started it’
etc etc
Those who have already picked sides (a long time ago) don’t seem to be able to offer anything new, so IMO, it’s time for ‘song mai ow’ type thinkers to start proposing solutions that take into account the reasonable concerns of both sides so that things can start to move forward.
Or is everyone just waiting for the King to sort it out, again?
(or even worse, are they willing spectators/cheerleaders at the Coliseum of Thailand?)
Karmablues: “kuson, some people appearing on a TV news program tonight have speculated that the armed pro-government thugs were sent into “PAD Land” to provoke violence so that Samak can announce the Emergency Decree.” We can speculate all kinds of things, but this is an odd speculation indeed. Presumably not from the same speculators who speculated that PAD wanted violence so that there would be a military coup?
I think if you asked the average Thai person on the street, rich or poor, educated or uneducated, most if not all would say that there was a massive corruption in the bureaucracy, the police and the political realm. Yes, even those sanctimonious Democrats are corrupt as well.
I think what separated Thaksin from the rest was that he didn’t treat the poor with contempt. He ate with them, he showered with them, he took the government on the road, he splashed a lot of money around, and he kept his campaign promises.
This was revolutionary for a Thai politician.
Those who think they are born to rule– the Democrats, the academics, the media elite, and the high ranking bureaucrats– have a feudal mentality that treats most of the Thai population with contempt. They don’t think they have to do retail politics or serve the general public’s interests. They think giving the little people the time of day is beneath them. The notion that their Isaan maid who is crawling around like a slave at their feet should have an equal political voice makes them want to puke.
So, if you were part of the hoi polloi, who would you chose: the corrupt elitists who have contempt for you or the corrupt politicians who actually make the effort to address your concerns?
I’m not saying that Thaksin should get a free pass for his corruption, but the notion that the reason he is only popular because he bought votes is bunk.
I think Andrew is right. You have to look past the boon koon р╕Ър╕╕р╕Нр╕Др╕╕р╕У obligation of vote-buying and reciprocity and understand that there are more variables at play that are based upon making rational political decisions. Also, it is the height of hypocrisy for the elite to look at the poor villager collecting a couple hundred baht and a box of Fab for a vote when they are the ones who are raking in millions of baht in kickbacks from utilizing their positions of power.
I think you have to concede that what is said from the PAD stage is not necessarily what is true.
Do you really believe this?
“15,000 strong, with 5,000 armed with knifes and batons, with Taxis with White Flags and 70 or so motorcycles and Police leading the way”
I don’t know anyone who does – what was the point of saying it from the stage, then? To instill a fighting spirit?
But is does show a certain sense of fairness — the PAD are as willing to inflate the crowd figures of their adversaries just as they do for themselves, though to a much lesser degree.
kuson, some people appearing on a TV news program tonight have speculated that the armed pro-government thugs were sent into “PAD Land” to provoke violence so that Samak can announce the Emergency Decree.
As for the PPP – NPK link, I think it’s always been obvious. Their leaders who go on stage to speak have included PPP MPs, eg. Krung Srivilai and gov-related persons, eg. Uthai Saegkaew, younger brother of Deputy Transport Minister.
As for PPP MP presence during the attack, the Nation has reported that Surathin Phimarnmekhin, PPP MP from Udon (this province again?!?), was at the scene and got head injury and treated with two stitches. His secretary denied that he was there to lead the pro-government group into PAD and explained that he was merely there to visit his constituents who had traveled from Udon. (personally, I wonder why visit so late at night/early morning).
Disturbingly, TV news (can’t remember which channel) reported that NPK Leaders have declared that if the army does not remove PAD from gov house by end of tomorrow, NPK will have to do the job themselves. Hopefully it’s just an empty threat, but who knows?
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Report on last night’s clash
“kuson”:
Only one thing is wrong with the house analogy – the PAD is not sitting in their house, they have seized a house that never belonged to them in the first place.
I don’t blame the shooter that much – i blame the ones that have sent him there in the first place.
An extract from Handley’s TKNS
I agree with you, Ed Norton, that the PAD should stand down, however to date they have shown no sign of doing so.
We need to ask why has the government has been hamstrung in this dispute, when they should have been able to take the high ground.
People can go on all they like about history & ‘other forces’ at play etc etc, but the fact is those forces can be negated IF the government simply acts competently and reasonably.
(just like the 2006 coup would never have been possible if Thaksin had moderated his greed and desire to avoid taxes)
All the government needs to do is get a list of all the PAD grievances.
If they cannot get it from the PAD, they just need to go back to the press releases, or just check the Manager site 🙂
Government media people need to respond to each of the grievances in a proper fashion – most can easily be dismissed, with proper explanations to satisfy all but the most pig headed.
(I suggest if he wants to make himself useful, Jakrapob should be doing this instead of pushing the spin to foreigners)
The one grievance that cannot be easily dismissed without the government appearing arrogant and having an ulterior motive, is the constitutional amendment.
On that matter the government needs to put their best minds at work to come up with a more consultative process, which has the best interests of the country at heart – that should not be difficult to do (unless they dont really want to put the interests of the country first!)
Publicise all of the above widely on TV and radio (including to the PAD rank & file – make letter drops into the protest site if they have to!), give appropriate explanations, set a reasonable deadline for dispersal, follow all legal procedures required, warn people that tear gas might be used and that children should to be evacuated for their own safety etc.
Follow through with the dispersal using minimun force and good planning.
If it goes wrong, they still have the high ground, and have done everything right and have been seen to have tried their hardest to reslove it peacefully.
There’s an abundance of bluster, arrogance, pig headedness, scheming etc, but what’s missing are:
Logic, common sense, competency, reasonableness, compassion.
Key editorial from the Financial Times
“The Election Commission’s decision …could fuel suspicions that a Bangkok elite, including elements of the army, bureaucracy, court and palace officials, is conspiring to stifle the country’s fragile democracy.”
Could fuel suspicions? Such a conspiracy theory has been thrown around for a long, long time.
“When many large sectors of society share the same political view for good reasons, this is not a “conspiracy,” it is a demographic phenomenon.
Just like Burma coverage much of the foreign media treats the current political crisis like some insta hobby. Expert quotes provide a lot more insight.
Report on last night’s clash
I have to respect some of the comments you have up there. I feel Karmablues has the closest to my understanding of the situation. Here are my comments:
Amberwaves, Dog Lover:
I quote Nganadeeleg “There are conflicting reports and everything is blurred at the moment, but it is hard to escape the fact that whenever the Reds get involved, violence is not far away.” That is the reason I put it in quotes, because you don’t get the true picture until after the fact, when investigations are carried out.
Here’s more insight: “The Reds start at Sanam Luang numbering 15,000 or alot. Most of the non-violent woman in the second lines are ones that are tricked in brought in by having been told they were going to funeral of Yod Rak and disperse before reaching the clash site. Those who reach the clash site number in the thousands”.
More interesting information for NM readers: [ The Reds are clearly fresh recruiters who are paid by the day. In being paid by the day, the PPP recruiters must minimise cost by deploying them into the intended violence right away. This brings a few advantages to PAD: NPK/UDD (drunks) don’t have time to it is easy to blend into the NPK/UDD crowd to get information of their whereabouts; But definitely, it is very hard how big a crowd is; Imagine you’re in wembly stadium, you see a crowd, and wonder — how many people are there in here? Its very hard to count, so estimations can be quite out of the mark ]
Dog Lover, there is so many information from so many news sources who the dead man is, and perhaps maybe there are more than 1 ? [BTW, I am a Dog Lover too]
Conclusion: Only when the Dust Settles, do we know the truth. I or PAD leaders can give as much information as the Dust can reveal. What only matters is, after the dust settles, what is the truth.
Bob: It was quite clear I was talking about the situation “Reports on Last Nights Clash”- at a micro level– which I mean the the UDD (or NPK or the Government Mob) Started this fight by intentionally attacking PAD position.
Its as clear as daylight – Bob, if you and I were adversaries, and our house were 100 meters apart, and I scream in my house “I’m going to slap you Bob!”, and on my way I scream “I’m going to Slap you bob!”, and in front of your house I scream “I’m going to Slap you bob!”, and give you a good Slapping. Naturally, you should give me a good kicking and you can point as clear as daylight, that I started it and go to the Thai Police if you think they still function.
I was not talking about at the Macro-Level, where I might say that Thaksin Started it all by all his own corruption doings, and in distinct to other politicians that flee, he continued his struggle to save his rear-end and wasting all our time in Thailand and discussing in New Mandala.
Nick, I respect you for being in that situation and that facts you have on gun shots. If the shots continued after UDD/NPK retreated, thats a shame on the shooter. [at this point in time, I don’t have more information on the shooter, of if anyone died or was injured from the shots] But as in my analogy up there, it doesn’t stop the fact that, UDD/NPK attacked the PAD position, nor did PAD walk all the way to Sanam luang to do the shooting. And nevertheless I share the same condemnation on Going Offensive, especially the UDD/NPK or gunner.
Ralph: About being a Pawn, I think I am using PAD as a Pawn as opposed as being used (as many silent Thais are using PAD as a Pawn) -I’m using PAD to be my WatchDog of the Government (and hopefully future governments) to protect my and my country’s interests [Don’t forget PAD also represents the Poor]. And I feel I have to contribute to PAD, and thus my appearance and try to involve in some of the rallies. And I feel alot of other Thais should contribute the same.
Conclusion: We (Thais) all use PAD – mostly indirectly. So we should contribute to help them somehow, which is at least support them behind TV.
Guys, I don’t think anyone in PAD likes sitting in the demonstration compound; It is uncomfortable, hot, sticky. The toilets, until recently, were not available. Taking a bath? I don’t know. They travelled from out of provinces, unlike me who stay overnight and take a comfortable bath at the Pathumwan Princess Sports Club or in the comfort of sitting on some clean, dry, private bathroom at home . So I think their doing at their personal levels to ultimately see the end of Thaksinism, and introduction of a Thai Political Watchdog/Bulldog is a sacrifice that I greatly respect and salute to. And I feel they will continue until the objective is met.
And for now, I think PAD is the only vehicle that I can use for corrective action to get the Basic Principles Right [Good Versus Evil, Intelligence vs Blind/Bought, Sustainable vs Short Term ], even though Breaking the Law [which seems to really hits NM’s nerves].
The Principles Will Win.
Thai crisis. Royal silence.
It can be argued that the King has allowed the extreme right to call the shots because it is the only tactic available to prevent a blood bath, the prospect of which concerns him above all. While this has worked reasonably well so far, refusing to condemn the PAD’s tactics of causing serious disruption to the country may not work in the longer term. The PAD is setting a dangerous precedent for political behaviour: if you don’t get the government you want, tear the country apart! If nothing is done, the other side can and will use these tactics when their turn comes. It’s happening already. Perhaps when a few hundred more bus-loads of country people come to town and demand their equal “right” to occupy Government House, he will call both sides off in harsh terms. By condemning them both, he could stop this rot without alienating too much of his own motley power base.
Thai crisis. Royal silence.
It would say something if he never talked but had a wry smile on his face.
Thai crisis. Royal silence.
If we considers the history of him and all his speeches, his silence at the moment really says something. I think it would be really good if the king comes out and say something indirectly, as usual, about using him as a brand. This bases on he acted before. Of course if he never said something before, saying something this time is political. But if he spoke on previous disputes and not this one, it can be implied which side he is on.
Still, I’d say not saying something might be good. Especially if not any anti-govt after this. At least, if we want less intervention from him, asking him to intervene is not a good start at all.
The King Never Smiles?
Handley is just a foreigner who’s trying to get smart about other nation’s business. We love our King , this is our way of living. Please mind your own social structure & political issues. May be you want to deal with your own problems in USA first. USA is not the WORLD. Do you really have to stick your bossy nose in every country’s business?? PATHETIC.
And all those Thais who disapprove the King, you can just live and die elsewhere but NOT in Thailand.
Academic commentary on Thai crisis
Saay — That is certainly not implied or intended. Need I point out that the President of the United States is an elected position?
Thai crisis. Royal silence.
I call for a new book entitled “The King Never Talks” and being all about the people who have talked ‘for’ and ‘on behalf of’ the king throughout modern Thai history.
Report on last night’s clash
More on kusons belief in PAD. The Bangkok Post now confirms: “The dead man was identified as UDD member Narongsak Krobthaisong, 55, the Narenthorn Emergency Response Centre said.” So why was Suriyasai emotional about the death of a PAD demonstrator? Maybe it was the same PAD demonstrator who was “killed” in Udorn a few weeks ago? PAD leaders are opportunists to the nth degree but the faithful believe anything they fabricate.
Thai crisis. Royal silence.
Thanks Nganadeeleg,
The point we are making is that the king’s royal brand is in the thick of the current dispute. He should, in our view, withdraw the royal brand from the PAD, not get further involved.
Best wishes to all.
An extract from Handley’s TKNS
You raise an excellent question/s. I am not answering directly, but thinking out loud and being deeply pessimistic about Thailand. I will get to the question. Maybe compromise is one of the things that holds Thailand back (at least that seems to be the view of the PAD leaders). Is it is at this moment that violence clears away the mess…. I know, we are all supposed to be non-violent and opposed to force, but violence is sometimes a way forward. One things of civil wars and revolutions such as the English Revolution, French Revolution and so on. The problem is that it can also lead into a chasm of destruction and bloody murder and mayhem.
To go more to the question nganadeeleg raises, and being more optimistic, I really think that PAD has to stand down. That way they maintain the potential to bring people out again. If they go for broke now, they risk a total loss. If the government stays, the EC has given the anti-PPP lot a way forward that is using the new judicial force. Of course, PPP people will see this as another example of the elite ganging up against them, but it buys everyone some time and cools things off for a while. And it preserves parliament.
But it also puts off the big issues – Thaksin (and he seems cashed up again!), monarchy), form of representation. But they are probably better dealt with through some kind of independent inquiry into the events of the PAD rebellion.
I’m trying, I really am….
State of Emergency in Bangkok
In Thailand where I live (a tourist area), what is noticeable is that in recent days local Thais seem to have stopped wearing yellow and red shirts and most T.V.s are now turned to soaps or sports.
This approach is probably one of self-preservation and conflict avoidance.
That said, it is time to get the mob out of government house and before magistrates where they belong.
Samak has played his hand well. It is time to let him take off the white gloves.
Lets hope the police, the soldiers, and the courts can do it with the least amount of bloodshed.
Then get the discussions back into Parliament where they belong in a democracy.
Thai crisis. Royal silence.
I would prefer the King stay out of politics, but perhaps a speech about humility, integrity and compromise would be timely.
An extract from Handley’s TKNS
Neither side seems able to reflect on the bigger picure in a non partisan way (and IMO that includes most media & academics).
The point scoring continues, but where are the constructive proposals – even on this supposedly ‘academic’ blog it rarely moves beyond:
‘Samak must resign, he is a proxy of Thaksin’
‘Samak was elected, you cannot disenfranchise the voters’
‘Reds started it’ or ‘Yellows started it’
etc etc
Those who have already picked sides (a long time ago) don’t seem to be able to offer anything new, so IMO, it’s time for ‘song mai ow’ type thinkers to start proposing solutions that take into account the reasonable concerns of both sides so that things can start to move forward.
Or is everyone just waiting for the King to sort it out, again?
(or even worse, are they willing spectators/cheerleaders at the Coliseum of Thailand?)
Report on last night’s clash
Karmablues: “kuson, some people appearing on a TV news program tonight have speculated that the armed pro-government thugs were sent into “PAD Land” to provoke violence so that Samak can announce the Emergency Decree.” We can speculate all kinds of things, but this is an odd speculation indeed. Presumably not from the same speculators who speculated that PAD wanted violence so that there would be a military coup?
Chang Noi backs the rural constitution
I think if you asked the average Thai person on the street, rich or poor, educated or uneducated, most if not all would say that there was a massive corruption in the bureaucracy, the police and the political realm. Yes, even those sanctimonious Democrats are corrupt as well.
I think what separated Thaksin from the rest was that he didn’t treat the poor with contempt. He ate with them, he showered with them, he took the government on the road, he splashed a lot of money around, and he kept his campaign promises.
This was revolutionary for a Thai politician.
Those who think they are born to rule– the Democrats, the academics, the media elite, and the high ranking bureaucrats– have a feudal mentality that treats most of the Thai population with contempt. They don’t think they have to do retail politics or serve the general public’s interests. They think giving the little people the time of day is beneath them. The notion that their Isaan maid who is crawling around like a slave at their feet should have an equal political voice makes them want to puke.
So, if you were part of the hoi polloi, who would you chose: the corrupt elitists who have contempt for you or the corrupt politicians who actually make the effort to address your concerns?
I’m not saying that Thaksin should get a free pass for his corruption, but the notion that the reason he is only popular because he bought votes is bunk.
I think Andrew is right. You have to look past the boon koon р╕Ър╕╕р╕Нр╕Др╕╕р╕У obligation of vote-buying and reciprocity and understand that there are more variables at play that are based upon making rational political decisions. Also, it is the height of hypocrisy for the elite to look at the poor villager collecting a couple hundred baht and a box of Fab for a vote when they are the ones who are raking in millions of baht in kickbacks from utilizing their positions of power.
Report on last night’s clash
re Kuson’s interesting and valuable account:
I think you have to concede that what is said from the PAD stage is not necessarily what is true.
Do you really believe this?
“15,000 strong, with 5,000 armed with knifes and batons, with Taxis with White Flags and 70 or so motorcycles and Police leading the way”
I don’t know anyone who does – what was the point of saying it from the stage, then? To instill a fighting spirit?
But is does show a certain sense of fairness — the PAD are as willing to inflate the crowd figures of their adversaries just as they do for themselves, though to a much lesser degree.
Report on last night’s clash
kuson, some people appearing on a TV news program tonight have speculated that the armed pro-government thugs were sent into “PAD Land” to provoke violence so that Samak can announce the Emergency Decree.
As for the PPP – NPK link, I think it’s always been obvious. Their leaders who go on stage to speak have included PPP MPs, eg. Krung Srivilai and gov-related persons, eg. Uthai Saegkaew, younger brother of Deputy Transport Minister.
As for PPP MP presence during the attack, the Nation has reported that Surathin Phimarnmekhin, PPP MP from Udon (this province again?!?), was at the scene and got head injury and treated with two stitches. His secretary denied that he was there to lead the pro-government group into PAD and explained that he was merely there to visit his constituents who had traveled from Udon. (personally, I wonder why visit so late at night/early morning).
Disturbingly, TV news (can’t remember which channel) reported that NPK Leaders have declared that if the army does not remove PAD from gov house by end of tomorrow, NPK will have to do the job themselves. Hopefully it’s just an empty threat, but who knows?