karmablues: Just a small point – “You seem to be worried with the Preah Vihear troubles. Though things look to be very heated, let’s wait and see what develops after the elections in Cambodia on 27 July. Once Hun Sen wins, then hopefully the situation will ease somewhat, and the road to a compromise might open up.” Is this saying that it is all the fault of the Cambodians? Surely we need to critically examine domestic Thai politics very closely on this issue. And, as it is a “rule of law” thread, maybe also critically consider the ways in which Thai law and its interpretation has impacted.
Maybe the inability to read an reason is something that could be made an accusation to the PADites blogging here. Maybe the questions raised can’t be answered by PADites who just wish to accuse others of being Thaksinites or taking money from Thaksin and so on. The illiberalism of such rants are clear. This is a PAD tactic as Thitinan in the Bangkok Post and Chang Noi in the Nation have pointed out. Ranting, hectoring and accusing people of all kinds of “crimes” for not agreeing with you, for refusing to answer a decidedly silly question and harping on about the same silly question is not debate or intelligent; it is infantile (in the best sense of that term, as used by Lenin). So I am not defensive as Sidh suggests, merely pointing out the logical flaws in the arguments presented.
As I said at #60, the response from some of you that it is not okay to be anti-PAD because that plays into the hands of pro-Thaksinites is unacceptable to me because I think it is possible, indeed preferable, to take just this position. I am pleased to reject the trajectory of the Thaksin regime. However, I am also willing to accept that the electorate was able to see much that was attractive in TRT and Thaksin. I am very happy to reject and criticise the rabid elite nationalism and (until now) monarchism of PAD. For me, a way out of the current crisis is a rejection of authoritarianism, monarchism, contrived elite nationalism (developed under Vajiravudh and sharpened by Vichit under Phibun and monarchised by Kukrit and Sarit) and laws that are unequally applied.
I remain interested in interpretations of the king’s recent speech to Samak and his ministers: As asked above – “Bangkok Pundit has a thread suggesting that the king has thrown some support behind Samak. If this is a realistic interpretation, does this mean that PAD will now need to attack the monarchy.” Further, it seems that Sondhi Lim has been accused (again) of this crime although he hasn’t been arrested like “da torpedo.” Is there something interesting in this? Is a deal in the works between the opposing (big) forces and the tools – the people on the streets at various pro and anti meetings – are about to be squeezed? Are these lese majeste accusations going to be used to decapitate both sides. In other words (and related to the theme of this thread, in case you’d forgotten) are the higher ups agreed that PAD (and others on the street and at Sanam Luang) should go home?
Ref: Bad Mass’s “This website ’s very fake. Don’t read”.
I do not pretend to know Bad Mass’s intentions or what he’s read specifically to be accusing such broadly to cover the whole website, but I’d like to draw my experience.
Even though many contributions seem quite superficial or outright unworthy [as some items only a Thai could understand based on his context and long experience living in the country and understanding why things happen as they do], but there are lots of comments that are well thought out and are worth reading that you can not find in any media. Those worthy comments and research certainly challenge alot of assumptions and provide a “Mirror” for which Thai readers can try to reflect to see, whether any improvements to the Country can be had by reading this site.
For this, Bad Mass, I highly recommend to use this site to challenge the common “truths” (via different views and research coming from Foreign, Expats, Academics — I’m guessing), test it out, find Blind Spots, and if it comes out in flying colors, you’ve probably got something good. All for the Development of Thailand and the countries described here in New Mandala!
And don’t get put of by Republicans who criticize the establishment. Many come from countries where that is allowed. I think it is important that we know that our King is a decent man and means well.
There are several things that I want to comment on concerning Mr.(?) Papaya’s essay/screed; however, I only have time for comment on the concept of “critical thinking.”
In the essay, and in the comments on it posted on this article, the term “critical thinking” is used; however, it is never defined. Indeed, it is assumed that everyone has the same understanding of what critical thinking is. Yet, as I have continued my research into contrastive sociopedagogy, I have become increasingly convinced that the term “critical thinking,” as commonly used, is actually a culturally-specific term that is laden with cultural beliefs and value judgements.
I am not trying to say that the laws of logic and reasoning differ from culture to culture; however the conclusions and actions taken from such reasoning will be different based on the differing prioritization of values from culture to culture. Using the sub-field of linguistics, known as pragmatics, to examine the term “critical thinking” will reveal that the term carries with it the Western, and specifically Anglosphere, values of “independence” and “equality,” which leads to various culturally-bound beliefs, such as the belief that the value and purpose of education is to give young people the ability of self-determination or the belief that through the exchange of argument and counter-argument, disagreements can be resolved and objective truth can be identified.
For hundreds of years, Thai culture had evolved seperately from that of the Anglosphere, so is it that surprising that Thai sociopedagogy would have a different prioritzation of values? If by critical thinking skills, one means teaching Thai students that:
1. If P, then Q
2. ~Q
3. Therefore, ~P
Then I have no concern; however, if by critical thinking skills, one means “to teach Thai students to employ the same value system in their reasoning as the Anglosphere does,” then I would find it to be cultural imperalism. Is the value of self-determination truly a part of “critical thinking”? Or can critical thinking co-exist with a system of р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕│р╕Щр╕╢р╕Бр╕Ър╕╕р╕Нр╕Др╕╕р╕У and р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕вр╕нр╕бр╕Хр╕▓р╕б, and a cultural preference for р╕кр╕▓р╕бр╕▒р╕Др╕Др╕╡?
re: TEFL/TESOL Trash
You seem to forget that ONE of the functions of forums and blogs is to allow people to let off steam.
“If you want to get yourself into the nationalist mood while on your way to a PAD rally”
But as I walk to a PAD rally, my feeling is more about being sorry for the countries being colonized.
Western Imperialism [particularly English, French] were not around region to do what they did in Good Faith. While most of the English colonies were fared much better off [ like elsewhere in Americas, Australia, South Africe, Singapore, Malaysia, India etc ] currently, the French’s Colonies had it worst. Sure, the Europeans really messed up Africa (divide and conquer at its ultimate) but I think the French left the worst taste of them all.
French deed here then result in good and bad repercussions, however (just some below):
On the not so good side, IMHO Lao people are Thai people and it is quite sad that the Mekong has to divide us, otherwise maybe Laos would have been fellow citizens. This extends to Cambodians, who have a similar culture. The Thai governing system at the time was about having loosely self-governing territories, so all cultures were preseved and allowed to reign quite freely (in Father to Son relationship). We have alot of Mons living happily in Thailand (at least much happier than the Mons in Myanmar, I reckon).
On the bright side, Cambodians and Laotians get their own country, which could be a good thing for them I think. At the very least, for people who can at least be ‘heads of governments’. I relate this to the Kingdom of ChiangMai, who, if they were taken by the English, would have been another Thai state as another nation. Whether they would have been better off outside Thailand now is a question, but definitely there will be a different head of state if so.
BUT: One thing for sure, The Western Imperialists were there for their own Empire’s Well Being, and whether we ended up on the Good Side or Bad Side, should not be thanking the stars for their deeds.
R. N. England, I can understand your concerns about things turning ugly due to a split given that it is true that there are pro-Thaksin forces in the military. But if such a confrontation was to happen (and I think it to be rather unlikely), I’d say it would be in a situation where Thaksin is certain he is to go to jail and taking that last ditch all or nothing move to hang onto power.
The rule of law offers a long-term way out, but it is something that is inculcated in the people from childhood, not imposed by decree or threat of punishment. The laws are strongest when people are happy to live by them
I do believe that certain basic moral values are incalculated into people since childhood, and I would certainly list, “Don’t Steal” to be one amongst them. I think it’s mainly a small group of people, which includes the TRT/PPP mafia, who have a problem with this but the rest of us 60 million or so Thais are happy to live with laws such as “Don’t Steal” or “Don’t kill”. Criminals will never be happy to live with laws, and for this small group of people, I say, it is necessary to subject them to the threat of punishment. Against those who lack the most basic of moral values, the strength of the law can be found no where else but in the threat of punishment.
You seem to be worried with the Preah Vihear troubles. Though things look to be very heated, let’s wait and see what develops after the elections in Cambodia on 27 July. Once Hun Sen wins, then hopefully the situation will ease somewhat, and the road to a compromise might open up.
Reg, anyone in this thread can judge that you’re either 1) intentionally not listening 2) like to jump to conclusions 3) have reading deficiency. I say this because this is not the first time you’ve done it. I do not have to quote your #68.
I forgive you for your shortcomings, but I don’t think in doing so is contributing to any intelligent advancement in this New Mandala site, which I think the founders want. I hope you only do this to me on this thread, not to others in the site.
Guys, don’t waste your time on Reg, as long as one doesn’t reason, one isn’t worth responding to.
Oh, yes – I’m not a Thaksin fan overall (I don’t agree with murder), but I must say that his policies re. teacher re-training, and initial training showed promise. Of course the state teachers hated him: having spent 4 years in some pathetic Rajabhat where noone is allowed to fail, they certainly didn’t like the idea of being required to do re-training every few years in order to renew their teaching licences. And changing over to ‘student-centred learning’ would require that every lesson would have to be new – too much effort.
To be fair, though, most of the Education Ministry funds for the re-training probably would have gone into various pockets, and the trainers would have been incompetent idiots, and the curriculum would have been a whole lot of disparate but impressively-titled ‘workshops’ and ‘seminars’…and noone would have been allowed to fail.
I think Papaya is spot-on. How can anyone say his comments are ‘racist’ or ‘xenophobic’? He goes to some trouble to point out that there is nothing inherently lacking in the basic mental make-up of Thais – the problem comes from the way teaching is conducted.
Frankly, I think Fonzi #5 is quite possibly a product of the Thai education system. (Let’s not discuss anything if it’s going to involve criticism of the ‘culture’. Anyone who does this is not a friend of Thailand.)
Grasshopper is being, well, Grasshopper yet again.
Anyone who has taught at any level in Thailand would have to agree with Papaya. What Thai teachers do is teach – they don’t educate. They teach the slower kids to copy from the brighter ones, so that their books look neat, from Anuban (kindergarten). They teach that the teacher is always right, and to venture out & make mistakes is bad. And as for arguing with an Acharn…the height of bad manners!By the age of 8 most kids have no curiosity (I’m talking about Bangkok & other major urban areas. I suspect that rural kids may be different. ), and very little creativity. But they’re good at decorating the stuff they download from the internet & present as their own work (complete with hyperlinks!) .
I’ve taught at every level here – anuban to post-grad, including what is laughably termed ‘teacher-training’ – & I can tell you that this country is in deep poo education-wise, and therefore in many other ways. Yes, there are some good developments, but they are few and far between, and definitely not available through the state system. And the scary thing is that nobody seems to want to do anything about it. Sychophants like Fonzi help to perpetuate the situation by bullying anyone who criticises and providing support for the status quo.
Great stuff…
I have heard, both directly and indirectly, of issues that Papaya in Thailand discussed. Although I suspect this is part of a fuller story, as Papaya mentioned, Thai society/students value the sciences – not pure sciences though – but rather medicine, engineering, architecture etc. where the top students flock to which have many implications in itself in kindergarten to tertiary education. I suspect the ‘malnutrition’ is much more acute in the arts and humanities.
There’s also a relatively recent prevalence of ‘international schools’ and ‘bi-lingual’ schools of varying quality. This will also have implications (that I don’t know what yet – but Papaya and Jonfernquest should be qualified to give us their insights).
And it does remind me of one of my main frustrations during PMThaksin’s rule which was that ‘education reforms’ just kept getting stopped, delayed, side-tracked, stunted…etc…etc… There was a clear lack of sincerity (as consistently reported in the Nation quoted by Papaya) in reform, rather consistent with his/TRT’s unwillingness to reform other bureaucracies, politics, even business etc. I agree with Papaya, that the inaction in terms of education reform will hurt Thai society most in the long term… One of the best measure of a truly visionary and well-meaning government is their investment in education and education reform…
Changnoi and R.N.England above points out the dangerous militarist tendencies in the PAD which can go out of hand. Although I have my fingers crossed, I actually doubt that would happen, as the ‘ideologues’ are a handful minority (so it is a “bulldog on a leash” scenario). If Kuson’s observations is more right than wrong, the biggest reason (for many, the only) they are all out there is to get rid of one of the most corrupt regimes in Thai history (no R.N. England, PMThaksin’s enemies are not “as corrupt” – but maybe it’s just because they haven’t had their chances to the buffet yet, whether it’s power and/or money). Frankly, in my two decades+ of following Thai politics closely, I’ve never seen so many angry Thais (in person and in the medias). I find that so un-Thai!
It’s all down to the court cases. If they are carried out transparently with all evidences publicly revealed and widely disseminated – with conviction(s) and/or innocence based on sound evidences, then peace will return. Many indicators say that this will happen sooner, rather than later. Refusing PMThaksin and wife to travel abroad is a tell-tale sign. The refusal of the military commanders to be drawn in is another very positive sign. Khao Pra Vihear may provide a potential flashpoint – but the likelihood is that some sort of ‘stalemate’ will prevail, awaiting future less nationalistic and more secure Thai and Khmer societies and governments to resolve the issue in a mutually beneficial way…
Ah, a defensive Reg – the only mature and intelligent man standing. You’ve been given your chances, mate – you are definitely a “Thaksinite” – not that there’s anything wrong with it (I hang around with a few myself – tempers flare occasionally, but the world is large and we agree on many other things)… That’s a bit unfortunate – but nganadeeleg, karmablues, kuson, myself (un-intelligent and infantile) did try to persuade you to answer a rather SIMPLE, STRAIGHTFORWARD QUESTION. There’s so much evidences to support well-argued answers, Reg. PMThaksin & nominees have been in power, running the country since 2001 bar the 1.5 years coup government. Let me tempt you one more time with Nganadeeleg’s #53 (come on, it’s easy):
nganadeeleg // Jul 21, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Reg: Can you answer Kuson’s question?
Reg says “It involves listening to the electorate, following the law (whether it suits or not and subjecting everyone equally to the law) and working for change peacefully, through reasoned and reasonable civic action and through parliament and the ballot box”
Kuson says “I am totally with you in principle…..In practice, can you get the Thaksinites to do the same, practicing on the same principle and lawful way that constitutes a good Democracy ….?
After I have read most comments, which post by Thai people, I just realize that , why my be loving country not develop as much as it should be, that’s because you all just keep told that;” LEAVE US ALONE”, “It’s our business”, or “don’t mess with our king”; you all never listen to the outsider, just keep watch only in your point of view, if compare to Thai ancient proverb, it just like; “Frog in the coconut shell”.
I didn’t try to convince you to believe it. But I just recommend you to use your intelligence to analyze it first, not just reject without any consideration.
The worst thing about the consumption of dog and cat meat in Asia is the myths about eating it. Because adrenaline is believed to make the meat more potent for the person eating it, like Stacker or Viagra or something of the sort, the animals are basically tortured to death.
Cats are boiled alive to make cat soup. It’s a horrible process where the cat screams and tries to escape. It takes up to ten minutes for the animal to die.
Dogs on the other hand, are either beaten to death in a sack or on the street, or are hung from a tree and beaten to death. Sometimes they are still alive when the fur is burned off of them with a blow torch.
The longer it takes the animal to die, the more adrenaline in the meat, so the goal is to make them suffer as long as you can before their body gives out on them.
Fur from the cats and dogs are marked as rabbit, raccoon or fox and sold around the world, even in the U.S.
While this is not a site about Vietnam, http://www.koreananimals.org is a place where you can learn more about the plight of animals in Asian countries. You can also google it or read more at http://www.HSUS.org.
By the way! How is life back in old blighty? Does several years in Thailand qualify you to perhaps apply for a job handing out the plastic toys in MacDonalds? Papaya was probably in a dismal mood before he even got here. The UK has become, like every other country in the world, a country where transnationals piss on people. Some superior system.
Grasshopper acting God again! Or is it just Acharn Grasshopper!?
You seem to forget that ONE of the functions of forums and blogs is to allow people to let off steam. The pressure certainly needs to be relieved after a day spent going nowhere in the classroom. As for the superiority of the system back home, I am not at all convinced anyway. My experience of a great deal of the Brit system was truly horrible. I also think, strangely enough, that Thailand might even fare a lot better without expat teachers.
Of course, Thai students often do enjoy school for a good number of reasons. And they would doubtless enjoy it even more if they didn’t have to endure the expat old farts. The question is whether it is equipping them to be able to hold their own against other folks in the region. It seems to be failing that test in almost everyone’s estimation.
I remember those days vividly. I was a first year physics student at RASU (Rangoon Arts and Science University) when that happened and my family would not let me leave the house during these chaotic times.
May the corpses of all of Burma’s present leaders and those of the Socialist RC rot in hell for eternity.
Kuson: I think you have made my point. It is not okay to be anti-PAD because that plays into the hands of pro-Thaksinites. I reject this as infantile radicalism of the illiberal. By the way, Bangkok Pundit has a thread suggesting that the king has thrown some support behind Samak. If this is a realistic interpretation, does this mean that PAD will now need to attack the monarchy. That might be more fun than we have seen for a while.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
“Let the electorate judge”
karmablues: Just a small point – “You seem to be worried with the Preah Vihear troubles. Though things look to be very heated, let’s wait and see what develops after the elections in Cambodia on 27 July. Once Hun Sen wins, then hopefully the situation will ease somewhat, and the road to a compromise might open up.” Is this saying that it is all the fault of the Cambodians? Surely we need to critically examine domestic Thai politics very closely on this issue. And, as it is a “rule of law” thread, maybe also critically consider the ways in which Thai law and its interpretation has impacted.
Time to go home
Maybe the inability to read an reason is something that could be made an accusation to the PADites blogging here. Maybe the questions raised can’t be answered by PADites who just wish to accuse others of being Thaksinites or taking money from Thaksin and so on. The illiberalism of such rants are clear. This is a PAD tactic as Thitinan in the Bangkok Post and Chang Noi in the Nation have pointed out. Ranting, hectoring and accusing people of all kinds of “crimes” for not agreeing with you, for refusing to answer a decidedly silly question and harping on about the same silly question is not debate or intelligent; it is infantile (in the best sense of that term, as used by Lenin). So I am not defensive as Sidh suggests, merely pointing out the logical flaws in the arguments presented.
As I said at #60, the response from some of you that it is not okay to be anti-PAD because that plays into the hands of pro-Thaksinites is unacceptable to me because I think it is possible, indeed preferable, to take just this position. I am pleased to reject the trajectory of the Thaksin regime. However, I am also willing to accept that the electorate was able to see much that was attractive in TRT and Thaksin. I am very happy to reject and criticise the rabid elite nationalism and (until now) monarchism of PAD. For me, a way out of the current crisis is a rejection of authoritarianism, monarchism, contrived elite nationalism (developed under Vajiravudh and sharpened by Vichit under Phibun and monarchised by Kukrit and Sarit) and laws that are unequally applied.
I remain interested in interpretations of the king’s recent speech to Samak and his ministers: As asked above – “Bangkok Pundit has a thread suggesting that the king has thrown some support behind Samak. If this is a realistic interpretation, does this mean that PAD will now need to attack the monarchy.” Further, it seems that Sondhi Lim has been accused (again) of this crime although he hasn’t been arrested like “da torpedo.” Is there something interesting in this? Is a deal in the works between the opposing (big) forces and the tools – the people on the streets at various pro and anti meetings – are about to be squeezed? Are these lese majeste accusations going to be used to decapitate both sides. In other words (and related to the theme of this thread, in case you’d forgotten) are the higher ups agreed that PAD (and others on the street and at Sanam Luang) should go home?
PAD’s book of the week
kuson: listen to PAD rants, run the flag up, sing the royal anthem, read luang vichit and you are done.
PAD’s book of the week
Ref: Bad Mass’s “This website ’s very fake. Don’t read”.
I do not pretend to know Bad Mass’s intentions or what he’s read specifically to be accusing such broadly to cover the whole website, but I’d like to draw my experience.
Even though many contributions seem quite superficial or outright unworthy [as some items only a Thai could understand based on his context and long experience living in the country and understanding why things happen as they do], but there are lots of comments that are well thought out and are worth reading that you can not find in any media. Those worthy comments and research certainly challenge alot of assumptions and provide a “Mirror” for which Thai readers can try to reflect to see, whether any improvements to the Country can be had by reading this site.
For this, Bad Mass, I highly recommend to use this site to challenge the common “truths” (via different views and research coming from Foreign, Expats, Academics — I’m guessing), test it out, find Blind Spots, and if it comes out in flying colors, you’ve probably got something good. All for the Development of Thailand and the countries described here in New Mandala!
And don’t get put of by Republicans who criticize the establishment. Many come from countries where that is allowed. I think it is important that we know that our King is a decent man and means well.
So use this site well, and it Will Serve!
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
There are several things that I want to comment on concerning Mr.(?) Papaya’s essay/screed; however, I only have time for comment on the concept of “critical thinking.”
In the essay, and in the comments on it posted on this article, the term “critical thinking” is used; however, it is never defined. Indeed, it is assumed that everyone has the same understanding of what critical thinking is. Yet, as I have continued my research into contrastive sociopedagogy, I have become increasingly convinced that the term “critical thinking,” as commonly used, is actually a culturally-specific term that is laden with cultural beliefs and value judgements.
I am not trying to say that the laws of logic and reasoning differ from culture to culture; however the conclusions and actions taken from such reasoning will be different based on the differing prioritization of values from culture to culture. Using the sub-field of linguistics, known as pragmatics, to examine the term “critical thinking” will reveal that the term carries with it the Western, and specifically Anglosphere, values of “independence” and “equality,” which leads to various culturally-bound beliefs, such as the belief that the value and purpose of education is to give young people the ability of self-determination or the belief that through the exchange of argument and counter-argument, disagreements can be resolved and objective truth can be identified.
For hundreds of years, Thai culture had evolved seperately from that of the Anglosphere, so is it that surprising that Thai sociopedagogy would have a different prioritzation of values? If by critical thinking skills, one means teaching Thai students that:
1. If P, then Q
2. ~Q
3. Therefore, ~P
Then I have no concern; however, if by critical thinking skills, one means “to teach Thai students to employ the same value system in their reasoning as the Anglosphere does,” then I would find it to be cultural imperalism. Is the value of self-determination truly a part of “critical thinking”? Or can critical thinking co-exist with a system of р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕│р╕Щр╕╢р╕Бр╕Ър╕╕р╕Нр╕Др╕╕р╕У and р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕вр╕нр╕бр╕Хр╕▓р╕б, and a cultural preference for р╕кр╕▓р╕бр╕▒р╕Др╕Др╕╡?
re: TEFL/TESOL Trash
Who says?
PAD’s book of the week
“If you want to get yourself into the nationalist mood while on your way to a PAD rally”
But as I walk to a PAD rally, my feeling is more about being sorry for the countries being colonized.
Western Imperialism [particularly English, French] were not around region to do what they did in Good Faith. While most of the English colonies were fared much better off [ like elsewhere in Americas, Australia, South Africe, Singapore, Malaysia, India etc ] currently, the French’s Colonies had it worst. Sure, the Europeans really messed up Africa (divide and conquer at its ultimate) but I think the French left the worst taste of them all.
French deed here then result in good and bad repercussions, however (just some below):
On the not so good side, IMHO Lao people are Thai people and it is quite sad that the Mekong has to divide us, otherwise maybe Laos would have been fellow citizens. This extends to Cambodians, who have a similar culture. The Thai governing system at the time was about having loosely self-governing territories, so all cultures were preseved and allowed to reign quite freely (in Father to Son relationship). We have alot of Mons living happily in Thailand (at least much happier than the Mons in Myanmar, I reckon).
On the bright side, Cambodians and Laotians get their own country, which could be a good thing for them I think. At the very least, for people who can at least be ‘heads of governments’. I relate this to the Kingdom of ChiangMai, who, if they were taken by the English, would have been another Thai state as another nation. Whether they would have been better off outside Thailand now is a question, but definitely there will be a different head of state if so.
BUT: One thing for sure, The Western Imperialists were there for their own Empire’s Well Being, and whether we ended up on the Good Side or Bad Side, should not be thanking the stars for their deeds.
“Let the electorate judge”
A split is possible and it would be a disaster
R. N. England, I can understand your concerns about things turning ugly due to a split given that it is true that there are pro-Thaksin forces in the military. But if such a confrontation was to happen (and I think it to be rather unlikely), I’d say it would be in a situation where Thaksin is certain he is to go to jail and taking that last ditch all or nothing move to hang onto power.
The rule of law offers a long-term way out, but it is something that is inculcated in the people from childhood, not imposed by decree or threat of punishment. The laws are strongest when people are happy to live by them
I do believe that certain basic moral values are incalculated into people since childhood, and I would certainly list, “Don’t Steal” to be one amongst them. I think it’s mainly a small group of people, which includes the TRT/PPP mafia, who have a problem with this but the rest of us 60 million or so Thais are happy to live with laws such as “Don’t Steal” or “Don’t kill”. Criminals will never be happy to live with laws, and for this small group of people, I say, it is necessary to subject them to the threat of punishment. Against those who lack the most basic of moral values, the strength of the law can be found no where else but in the threat of punishment.
You seem to be worried with the Preah Vihear troubles. Though things look to be very heated, let’s wait and see what develops after the elections in Cambodia on 27 July. Once Hun Sen wins, then hopefully the situation will ease somewhat, and the road to a compromise might open up.
Time to go home
Reg, anyone in this thread can judge that you’re either 1) intentionally not listening 2) like to jump to conclusions 3) have reading deficiency. I say this because this is not the first time you’ve done it. I do not have to quote your #68.
I forgive you for your shortcomings, but I don’t think in doing so is contributing to any intelligent advancement in this New Mandala site, which I think the founders want. I hope you only do this to me on this thread, not to others in the site.
Guys, don’t waste your time on Reg, as long as one doesn’t reason, one isn’t worth responding to.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
Oh, yes – I’m not a Thaksin fan overall (I don’t agree with murder), but I must say that his policies re. teacher re-training, and initial training showed promise. Of course the state teachers hated him: having spent 4 years in some pathetic Rajabhat where noone is allowed to fail, they certainly didn’t like the idea of being required to do re-training every few years in order to renew their teaching licences. And changing over to ‘student-centred learning’ would require that every lesson would have to be new – too much effort.
To be fair, though, most of the Education Ministry funds for the re-training probably would have gone into various pockets, and the trainers would have been incompetent idiots, and the curriculum would have been a whole lot of disparate but impressively-titled ‘workshops’ and ‘seminars’…and noone would have been allowed to fail.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
I think Papaya is spot-on. How can anyone say his comments are ‘racist’ or ‘xenophobic’? He goes to some trouble to point out that there is nothing inherently lacking in the basic mental make-up of Thais – the problem comes from the way teaching is conducted.
Frankly, I think Fonzi #5 is quite possibly a product of the Thai education system. (Let’s not discuss anything if it’s going to involve criticism of the ‘culture’. Anyone who does this is not a friend of Thailand.)
Grasshopper is being, well, Grasshopper yet again.
Anyone who has taught at any level in Thailand would have to agree with Papaya. What Thai teachers do is teach – they don’t educate. They teach the slower kids to copy from the brighter ones, so that their books look neat, from Anuban (kindergarten). They teach that the teacher is always right, and to venture out & make mistakes is bad. And as for arguing with an Acharn…the height of bad manners!By the age of 8 most kids have no curiosity (I’m talking about Bangkok & other major urban areas. I suspect that rural kids may be different. ), and very little creativity. But they’re good at decorating the stuff they download from the internet & present as their own work (complete with hyperlinks!) .
I’ve taught at every level here – anuban to post-grad, including what is laughably termed ‘teacher-training’ – & I can tell you that this country is in deep poo education-wise, and therefore in many other ways. Yes, there are some good developments, but they are few and far between, and definitely not available through the state system. And the scary thing is that nobody seems to want to do anything about it. Sychophants like Fonzi help to perpetuate the situation by bullying anyone who criticises and providing support for the status quo.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
Great stuff…
I have heard, both directly and indirectly, of issues that Papaya in Thailand discussed. Although I suspect this is part of a fuller story, as Papaya mentioned, Thai society/students value the sciences – not pure sciences though – but rather medicine, engineering, architecture etc. where the top students flock to which have many implications in itself in kindergarten to tertiary education. I suspect the ‘malnutrition’ is much more acute in the arts and humanities.
There’s also a relatively recent prevalence of ‘international schools’ and ‘bi-lingual’ schools of varying quality. This will also have implications (that I don’t know what yet – but Papaya and Jonfernquest should be qualified to give us their insights).
And it does remind me of one of my main frustrations during PMThaksin’s rule which was that ‘education reforms’ just kept getting stopped, delayed, side-tracked, stunted…etc…etc… There was a clear lack of sincerity (as consistently reported in the Nation quoted by Papaya) in reform, rather consistent with his/TRT’s unwillingness to reform other bureaucracies, politics, even business etc. I agree with Papaya, that the inaction in terms of education reform will hurt Thai society most in the long term… One of the best measure of a truly visionary and well-meaning government is their investment in education and education reform…
“Let the electorate judge”
And a couple more evenhanded commentaries:
CHANGNOI’s ofcourse:
“Pad: bulldog on a leash or another nail in democracy’s coffin” in:
http://nationmultimedia.com/2008/07/21/opinion/opinion_30078561.php
SETH MYDANS “Thai-Cambodian Temple Standoff Continues ” in:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/21/world/asia/21cambodia.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin
Changnoi and R.N.England above points out the dangerous militarist tendencies in the PAD which can go out of hand. Although I have my fingers crossed, I actually doubt that would happen, as the ‘ideologues’ are a handful minority (so it is a “bulldog on a leash” scenario). If Kuson’s observations is more right than wrong, the biggest reason (for many, the only) they are all out there is to get rid of one of the most corrupt regimes in Thai history (no R.N. England, PMThaksin’s enemies are not “as corrupt” – but maybe it’s just because they haven’t had their chances to the buffet yet, whether it’s power and/or money). Frankly, in my two decades+ of following Thai politics closely, I’ve never seen so many angry Thais (in person and in the medias). I find that so un-Thai!
It’s all down to the court cases. If they are carried out transparently with all evidences publicly revealed and widely disseminated – with conviction(s) and/or innocence based on sound evidences, then peace will return. Many indicators say that this will happen sooner, rather than later. Refusing PMThaksin and wife to travel abroad is a tell-tale sign. The refusal of the military commanders to be drawn in is another very positive sign. Khao Pra Vihear may provide a potential flashpoint – but the likelihood is that some sort of ‘stalemate’ will prevail, awaiting future less nationalistic and more secure Thai and Khmer societies and governments to resolve the issue in a mutually beneficial way…
Time to go home
Ah, a defensive Reg – the only mature and intelligent man standing. You’ve been given your chances, mate – you are definitely a “Thaksinite” – not that there’s anything wrong with it (I hang around with a few myself – tempers flare occasionally, but the world is large and we agree on many other things)… That’s a bit unfortunate – but nganadeeleg, karmablues, kuson, myself (un-intelligent and infantile) did try to persuade you to answer a rather SIMPLE, STRAIGHTFORWARD QUESTION. There’s so much evidences to support well-argued answers, Reg. PMThaksin & nominees have been in power, running the country since 2001 bar the 1.5 years coup government. Let me tempt you one more time with Nganadeeleg’s #53 (come on, it’s easy):
nganadeeleg // Jul 21, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Reg: Can you answer Kuson’s question?
Reg says “It involves listening to the electorate, following the law (whether it suits or not and subjecting everyone equally to the law) and working for change peacefully, through reasoned and reasonable civic action and through parliament and the ballot box”
Kuson says “I am totally with you in principle…..In practice, can you get the Thaksinites to do the same, practicing on the same principle and lawful way that constitutes a good Democracy ….?
The King Never Smiles?
After I have read most comments, which post by Thai people, I just realize that , why my be loving country not develop as much as it should be, that’s because you all just keep told that;” LEAVE US ALONE”, “It’s our business”, or “don’t mess with our king”; you all never listen to the outsider, just keep watch only in your point of view, if compare to Thai ancient proverb, it just like; “Frog in the coconut shell”.
I didn’t try to convince you to believe it. But I just recommend you to use your intelligence to analyze it first, not just reject without any consideration.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
I’ve never lived or taught in Thailand.
Lunch?
The worst thing about the consumption of dog and cat meat in Asia is the myths about eating it. Because adrenaline is believed to make the meat more potent for the person eating it, like Stacker or Viagra or something of the sort, the animals are basically tortured to death.
Cats are boiled alive to make cat soup. It’s a horrible process where the cat screams and tries to escape. It takes up to ten minutes for the animal to die.
Dogs on the other hand, are either beaten to death in a sack or on the street, or are hung from a tree and beaten to death. Sometimes they are still alive when the fur is burned off of them with a blow torch.
The longer it takes the animal to die, the more adrenaline in the meat, so the goal is to make them suffer as long as you can before their body gives out on them.
Fur from the cats and dogs are marked as rabbit, raccoon or fox and sold around the world, even in the U.S.
While this is not a site about Vietnam, http://www.koreananimals.org is a place where you can learn more about the plight of animals in Asian countries. You can also google it or read more at http://www.HSUS.org.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
By the way! How is life back in old blighty? Does several years in Thailand qualify you to perhaps apply for a job handing out the plastic toys in MacDonalds? Papaya was probably in a dismal mood before he even got here. The UK has become, like every other country in the world, a country where transnationals piss on people. Some superior system.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
Grasshopper acting God again! Or is it just Acharn Grasshopper!?
You seem to forget that ONE of the functions of forums and blogs is to allow people to let off steam. The pressure certainly needs to be relieved after a day spent going nowhere in the classroom. As for the superiority of the system back home, I am not at all convinced anyway. My experience of a great deal of the Brit system was truly horrible. I also think, strangely enough, that Thailand might even fare a lot better without expat teachers.
Of course, Thai students often do enjoy school for a good number of reasons. And they would doubtless enjoy it even more if they didn’t have to endure the expat old farts. The question is whether it is equipping them to be able to hold their own against other folks in the region. It seems to be failing that test in almost everyone’s estimation.
1974 U Thant uprising – a first hand account
Amen, ah ko.
I remember those days vividly. I was a first year physics student at RASU (Rangoon Arts and Science University) when that happened and my family would not let me leave the house during these chaotic times.
May the corpses of all of Burma’s present leaders and those of the Socialist RC rot in hell for eternity.
Time to go home
Kuson: I think you have made my point. It is not okay to be anti-PAD because that plays into the hands of pro-Thaksinites. I reject this as infantile radicalism of the illiberal. By the way, Bangkok Pundit has a thread suggesting that the king has thrown some support behind Samak. If this is a realistic interpretation, does this mean that PAD will now need to attack the monarchy. That might be more fun than we have seen for a while.