William: “That’s a grimm way of looking at life. If someone does something good, that’s already suspicious. If your opinion would be the one of the majority of us, there would not be any more charities or fund-raisers.”
It may be grim but it is often the truth in rural Thailand (see below) and I can certainly deal with the truth without making it a way of life or dwelling on it. You have not lived and worked in rural Thailand. (Only initials of names of rural towns used below):
1. Matthew McDaniel once had me translate from the Thai of a local school teacher who had received several boys from a local orphanage who claimed they were being trafficked to CM for use in by a Malaysian Chinese masquerading as a Christian missionary. Since there was possible police involvement, nothing ever came of this, according to Matthew, he did unmask several cases of murder and torture though, 2. The case of Rolf, an Swiss NGO worker in MS, former Nestles engineer, early 30s, who ***hung himself in his jail cell in CR prison*** after engaging in a bizarre series of accusations with the local NGO over child molestation, there was no transparency in his case at all, so it is difficult to know the full story but apparently, Rolf was facing charges in his native Switzerland and escaped on bail to Thailand, there are other cases like this, 3. Recently the head of a hill tribe orphanage outfit was dismissed in CR for sexual misconduct, again exact details are difficult to come by, unless you actually are living there, 4. The Catholic priest that used to help Matthew and I with the Burmese and Akha languages used to tell us how the personal use of NGO funds for purchasing personal assets such as house and car was commonplace, 5. for-profit fundraising for other groups on a commission basis can be a very lucrative business, as of two years ago there were some Europeans involved in this business in CM, 6. pay to volunteer setups in which the tourism business gives unqualified tourists something to do in exchange for money, all a broker needs to do this is a telephone and an internet connection, one was operating out of Phuket, setting up tourists for CR organisations, some of the people that the YMCA in CR employed were great, I knew them well, some of them slept with their teenage students and bragged about it, grim, 7. one hill tribe orphanage is a good thing, when they start sprouting up all over the place like mushrooms you begin to wonder, particularly when they are completely unregulated, and this was the situation in CR at least a few years ago.
Claiming an altruistic motive is like an emotional stun gun, the quickest way to disarm the reasoning powers of a westerner, such as yourself Walter.
William, isn’t good is subjective? Do you consider the values that those in Surin have over your own to be able to say ‘do some good’? Has anyone informed the people at Surin how much this is costing those attending the dinner?
Also, what are you talking about regarding Europe 70 years ago?- Jon’s only referring to utility – you’re the one who is pre-empting discrimination…
This event is only good in the same way that lots of icecream is good. Perhaps, William, you are a lobbyist for Oprah Winfrey type people who donate to Save the Children and then have a pavlova for breakfast?
I am your basic market capitalist and have nothing against the rich. However, when people do things overtly to appear good, especially when this may bring them other benefits, there is nothing wrong with examining the activities to see if they are real or fraudulent. If I were to do something good, I would have no objection to someone wanting to verify that it was real before promoting it. I would also be happy if others who did false acts of charity were exposed.
An interesting example today is the entire page 5B of The Nation, which is dominated by the headline “Princess brings it to the underprivileged”. It describes a tiny set of good actions that the Princess herself may or not nor be aware of or involved with. In fact, the Thai government may even have paid for them. The article certainly gives no indication that she did anything.
While giving two handicapped children computers may be good, it pales in comparison to the thousands of acts of true good that people do every day in this country.
The impression that I get is that this is a piece of self serving propaganda aimed to perpetuate the dynastic rule of the family. I don’t think that calling attention to this in any way discourages the good actions of others. It may in fact encourage them.
Your attempt to link scrutiny of claims of doing good to some arrests in Europe in 1930s seems nonsensical.
I am sure that true doers of good are glad to have their acts and the acts of other subject to some basic levels of scrutiny to separate them from fraudsters.
That’s a grimm way of looking at life. If someone does something good, that’s already suspicious. If your opinion would be the one of the majority of us, there would not be any more charities or fund-raisers. The rich would be afraid of being suspected of doing this for some other reason than the obvious. About 70 years ago in Europe, people got arrested just because they were suspected of a crime because of their heritage, political standing or their thoughts. Your “critical scrutiny” reminds me of those times a bit……
Dogs deserve humane treatment. But taking a dog to a state ceremony is too much. And for 0ur Moslem brethren, we should not flaunt dogs in their presence. Likewise, putting a dog on a seat of honor next to you–if you are a big shot–amounts to bad taste.
Interestingly, in a 2006 report by the Karen Human Rights Group (KHRG) we found similar trends in Karen villages in eastern Burma. The trends which Ikuko notes about large-scale out migration of youth in search of cash incomes, the continued importance of rice farming and the shifting roles of women as they take on different forms of labour were common. Although in Burma these factors arose primarily due to economic pressure on households coming from a combination of persistent forced labour, exploitation and restrictive agricultural policies. The KHRG report, Dignity in the Shadow of Oppression: The abuse and agency of Karen women under militarisation is available here.
It would also be useful to know if an English language translation of Ikuko’s entire article comes.
I’am a bit surprised about the use of “tradition”. What is shown is not much of “tradition” but rather an show for tourists. To point at the economic, political and cultural power relations, it makes more sense to use the old concept of Hobsbawn and Ranger on “invented traditions” or of simulacrum (Barth and Derrida). The rings etc. are such simulations of exotic authenticity media love to pick up and disseminate, turning it into a second level simulation oriented at an imagined demand of a far away audience.
Siam Cement are running scared. They have long known of the dangers their products pose to public health but, more importantly, they recognise that the public are now beginning to demand answers. The big question for Siam Cement -the question which must have them quaiking in their boots- is what happens when the courts are asked to intervene? The company can stall for a while with quietly arranged out of court settlements but sooner or later the asbestos issue will explode onto the public scene. And what then? Will the directors of SC claim they were unaware of the dangers of asbestos? will they claim ignorance of the hazardous conditions in which it is used? Will they tell us all (as they told me) that they truly believed chrysotile is safe?
Under English law -even if there were no breaches of the criminal code- there would be an action for negligence under principles dating back to the early 1930s. In Thailand I suspect you will see parliament intervening to protect the SC group from just such harmful litigation.
I wrote to SC asking directly if they felt any responsibility for asbestos related deaths arising from the construction and use of their products. I got no reply. For a budding investigative journalist there’s a great story just waiting to be told!
“Laos …One could be forgiven for hardly noticing its existence, despite its peoples’ very central historical involvement in the shaping of mainland Southeast Asia.”
I agree, but this also applies to every Tai statelet arrayed across the northern frontier of Southeast Asia from Assam to Yunnan to Annam.
News on issues like asbestos is often buried in the business news, like the following. Developing new export markets seems to provide an incentive to develop new non-asbestos roofing products (SCG = Siam Cement Group) :
BUSINESS SECTION
BUILDING MATERIALS COMPETITIVENESS
Building Materials
SCG sees innovation as key to better sales
BUSRIN TREERAPONGPICHIT
30-04-2007
SCG Building Materials Co is counting on innovative products to increase sales revenue after its total sales dropped by 7% in the first quarter, according to president Pichit Maipoom…
Currently, exports account for around 30% of total sales, down from 35% last year due to the baht’s appreciation, he said.
To cope with the difficulty, the company aims to expand its export markets as much as possible, particularly for high-value products, which it hopes to lift to 40-50% of total sales from 15% now.
SCG sees potential in its ***non-asbestos products, including fibre roof tiles, fibreboard and walls, manufactured by its affiliate, Siam Fibre-Cement.***
The products developed by its research and development unit use cellulose and synthetic fibres as main raw materials to replace asbestos, which is harmful to health and the environment. The R&D alone cost three billion baht.
The innovation won the company the SCG Innovation Award, held by the parent Siam Cement Group to encourage new ideas throughout the industrial conglomerate.
Around of 80% of asbestos-based products have been replaced by non-asbestos materials.
The rest could be replaced as demand warrants, the company says.
The new products are priced 10% higher than the asbestos equivalents but the production cost is much higher than that, Mr Pichit admitted.
He said the company had set a sales target for non-asbestos products at six billion baht this year.
Thanks. The really important part of the article is not exactly how much the dinner cost.
Essential facts about family run business empires like this are always missing from the business news, presumably because of the cost of fighting defamation suits used to muzzle the truth.
I suppose blogs are the only place one can find these facts, along with the recently published Baker and Pasuk book.
There is also the overall aesthetic, to some nauseating, of rich people making superficial ritual acknowledgements of poverty to do penance for cheating banks.
(BTW the mere statement that someone did good should never be taken on its face value. There are enough frauds out there who use charity as a sweetlooking front to a profitmaking or other self-serving enterprise. For example, orphanages or homes for street children have been used as fronts for sexual exploitation of children and even trafficking. Or allowing missionaries with their religious agendas sweeping kids, usually females, out of villages. “Charity” should not absolve one from critical scrutiny.)
It’s nice to be considered an expert but sometimes one’s unique knowledge (and neck) is stretched too far. Here is a query I received over email in 2002 (name witheld, of course), that might tickle some NM readers and the Karen:
Hello Dr. Jonsson:
I am researching an article for National Geographic Traveler magazine and I was wondering if you could help me (your name was in the COS Expertise database).
I need the correct spelling for a particular native tribe of Thailand, the Long-neck tribe. Do you know if it is spelled Long-neck or Long-Neck or Long Neck? I’ve seen all three versions.
A Police Lt. Col. Watanasak has filed a lese majeste complaint against Jakrapob Penkair arising out of statements Jakrapob made to the FCCT…It was related to a comparison he made regarding democracy and the patronage system in Thailand. Jakrapob is quoted as denying saying offending the monarchy and has no intention to do so.
I imagine this interview took place at the boat house over quaffs of cherry and that it actually had to be translated from Latin whilst removing all the references to investigating foolhardy Cambridge Soviet spies in Vietnam because they’re still working for MI6 and are New Mandala readers.
Phu Mak Sop Tham: How could Vientiane be further romanticised/orientalised beyond Vespa scooters and canary yellow humidity? There would just be a giant “Billets a Vang Vieng/Tickets to Vang Vieng” sign near the bus depot and lots of pollution left by 15-30 year olds who really just wanted fish and chips, or an authentic pre planned adventuring experience. Oh wait…
Mandy Sadan: Haha, post-feminism. It’s not patriarchy!
DEVELOPMENT FROM BELOW IS AN APPROACH I WOULD LIKE MOST COUNTRIES TO ADOPT. WHEN WE LOOK AT THE RURAL POPULATION, WE REALISE TAHT THE RURAL POOR HAVE A LOT OF RESOURCES AT THEIR DISPOSAL, THEY PRODUCE THE GREATEST OF THE GNP OF MOST THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES, BUT THEIR STANDARDS OF LIVING IS RELATIVELY VERY LOW. THEY ARE USUALLY DISCRIMINATED UPON. THERE IS NEED FOR THEIR SITUATION TO BE UPGRADED. MOST OF THE DEVELOPMENT PLANNERS SHOULD SEE THE RURAL PEOPLE AS AN ENGINE TO DEVELOPMENT. THIS WILL GO A LONG WAY TO DEVELOP THEIR COMMUNITIES AND IMPROVE UPON THEIR STANDARDS OF LIVING.
it is always so convenient to judge someone or something based on a rumor. When you publish something here, please get your facts straight and do your homework. The whole event costs USD 300,000 and not per person or something. The event is an invitation by the hotel and there is no charges to the participants. Read the papers, google, or whatever. But get your facts straight, otherwise it is amateur hour.
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Sorry sir, we are not willing to cover Thong Daeng
Americans can now include mutts in their car insurance (with some companies) in order that they be covered in case of an accident.
Emotional tourism
Whoops: Walter = William above.
Emotional tourism
William: “That’s a grimm way of looking at life. If someone does something good, that’s already suspicious. If your opinion would be the one of the majority of us, there would not be any more charities or fund-raisers.”
It may be grim but it is often the truth in rural Thailand (see below) and I can certainly deal with the truth without making it a way of life or dwelling on it. You have not lived and worked in rural Thailand. (Only initials of names of rural towns used below):
1. Matthew McDaniel once had me translate from the Thai of a local school teacher who had received several boys from a local orphanage who claimed they were being trafficked to CM for use in by a Malaysian Chinese masquerading as a Christian missionary. Since there was possible police involvement, nothing ever came of this, according to Matthew, he did unmask several cases of murder and torture though, 2. The case of Rolf, an Swiss NGO worker in MS, former Nestles engineer, early 30s, who ***hung himself in his jail cell in CR prison*** after engaging in a bizarre series of accusations with the local NGO over child molestation, there was no transparency in his case at all, so it is difficult to know the full story but apparently, Rolf was facing charges in his native Switzerland and escaped on bail to Thailand, there are other cases like this, 3. Recently the head of a hill tribe orphanage outfit was dismissed in CR for sexual misconduct, again exact details are difficult to come by, unless you actually are living there, 4. The Catholic priest that used to help Matthew and I with the Burmese and Akha languages used to tell us how the personal use of NGO funds for purchasing personal assets such as house and car was commonplace, 5. for-profit fundraising for other groups on a commission basis can be a very lucrative business, as of two years ago there were some Europeans involved in this business in CM, 6. pay to volunteer setups in which the tourism business gives unqualified tourists something to do in exchange for money, all a broker needs to do this is a telephone and an internet connection, one was operating out of Phuket, setting up tourists for CR organisations, some of the people that the YMCA in CR employed were great, I knew them well, some of them slept with their teenage students and bragged about it, grim, 7. one hill tribe orphanage is a good thing, when they start sprouting up all over the place like mushrooms you begin to wonder, particularly when they are completely unregulated, and this was the situation in CR at least a few years ago.
Claiming an altruistic motive is like an emotional stun gun, the quickest way to disarm the reasoning powers of a westerner, such as yourself Walter.
Emotional tourism
William, isn’t good is subjective? Do you consider the values that those in Surin have over your own to be able to say ‘do some good’? Has anyone informed the people at Surin how much this is costing those attending the dinner?
Also, what are you talking about regarding Europe 70 years ago?- Jon’s only referring to utility – you’re the one who is pre-empting discrimination…
This event is only good in the same way that lots of icecream is good. Perhaps, William, you are a lobbyist for Oprah Winfrey type people who donate to Save the Children and then have a pavlova for breakfast?
Good luck to you!
Emotional tourism
William,
I am your basic market capitalist and have nothing against the rich. However, when people do things overtly to appear good, especially when this may bring them other benefits, there is nothing wrong with examining the activities to see if they are real or fraudulent. If I were to do something good, I would have no objection to someone wanting to verify that it was real before promoting it. I would also be happy if others who did false acts of charity were exposed.
An interesting example today is the entire page 5B of The Nation, which is dominated by the headline “Princess brings it to the underprivileged”. It describes a tiny set of good actions that the Princess herself may or not nor be aware of or involved with. In fact, the Thai government may even have paid for them. The article certainly gives no indication that she did anything.
While giving two handicapped children computers may be good, it pales in comparison to the thousands of acts of true good that people do every day in this country.
The impression that I get is that this is a piece of self serving propaganda aimed to perpetuate the dynastic rule of the family. I don’t think that calling attention to this in any way discourages the good actions of others. It may in fact encourage them.
Your attempt to link scrutiny of claims of doing good to some arrests in Europe in 1930s seems nonsensical.
I am sure that true doers of good are glad to have their acts and the acts of other subject to some basic levels of scrutiny to separate them from fraudsters.
Emotional tourism
That’s a grimm way of looking at life. If someone does something good, that’s already suspicious. If your opinion would be the one of the majority of us, there would not be any more charities or fund-raisers. The rich would be afraid of being suspected of doing this for some other reason than the obvious. About 70 years ago in Europe, people got arrested just because they were suspected of a crime because of their heritage, political standing or their thoughts. Your “critical scrutiny” reminds me of those times a bit……
Bound by tradition
Every society is equal if we pitch tradition against modernity, whatever these mean.
Sorry sir, we are not willing to cover Thong Daeng
Dogs deserve humane treatment. But taking a dog to a state ceremony is too much. And for 0ur Moslem brethren, we should not flaunt dogs in their presence. Likewise, putting a dog on a seat of honor next to you–if you are a big shot–amounts to bad taste.
Rice farming and urban labour
Interestingly, in a 2006 report by the Karen Human Rights Group (KHRG) we found similar trends in Karen villages in eastern Burma. The trends which Ikuko notes about large-scale out migration of youth in search of cash incomes, the continued importance of rice farming and the shifting roles of women as they take on different forms of labour were common. Although in Burma these factors arose primarily due to economic pressure on households coming from a combination of persistent forced labour, exploitation and restrictive agricultural policies. The KHRG report, Dignity in the Shadow of Oppression: The abuse and agency of Karen women under militarisation is available here.
It would also be useful to know if an English language translation of Ikuko’s entire article comes.
Bound by tradition
I’am a bit surprised about the use of “tradition”. What is shown is not much of “tradition” but rather an show for tourists. To point at the economic, political and cultural power relations, it makes more sense to use the old concept of Hobsbawn and Ranger on “invented traditions” or of simulacrum (Barth and Derrida). The rings etc. are such simulations of exotic authenticity media love to pick up and disseminate, turning it into a second level simulation oriented at an imagined demand of a far away audience.
Asbestos in Thailand
Siam Cement are running scared. They have long known of the dangers their products pose to public health but, more importantly, they recognise that the public are now beginning to demand answers. The big question for Siam Cement -the question which must have them quaiking in their boots- is what happens when the courts are asked to intervene? The company can stall for a while with quietly arranged out of court settlements but sooner or later the asbestos issue will explode onto the public scene. And what then? Will the directors of SC claim they were unaware of the dangers of asbestos? will they claim ignorance of the hazardous conditions in which it is used? Will they tell us all (as they told me) that they truly believed chrysotile is safe?
Under English law -even if there were no breaches of the criminal code- there would be an action for negligence under principles dating back to the early 1930s. In Thailand I suspect you will see parliament intervening to protect the SC group from just such harmful litigation.
I wrote to SC asking directly if they felt any responsibility for asbestos related deaths arising from the construction and use of their products. I got no reply. For a budding investigative journalist there’s a great story just waiting to be told!
Interview with Justin Wintle
“Laos …One could be forgiven for hardly noticing its existence, despite its peoples’ very central historical involvement in the shaping of mainland Southeast Asia.”
I agree, but this also applies to every Tai statelet arrayed across the northern frontier of Southeast Asia from Assam to Yunnan to Annam.
Interview with Justin Wintle
Methinks it is not the only place where the cherry is being quaffed, Grasshopper! Cheers!!
Asbestos in Thailand
News on issues like asbestos is often buried in the business news, like the following. Developing new export markets seems to provide an incentive to develop new non-asbestos roofing products (SCG = Siam Cement Group) :
BUSINESS SECTION
BUILDING MATERIALS COMPETITIVENESS
Building Materials
SCG sees innovation as key to better sales
BUSRIN TREERAPONGPICHIT
30-04-2007
SCG Building Materials Co is counting on innovative products to increase sales revenue after its total sales dropped by 7% in the first quarter, according to president Pichit Maipoom…
Currently, exports account for around 30% of total sales, down from 35% last year due to the baht’s appreciation, he said.
To cope with the difficulty, the company aims to expand its export markets as much as possible, particularly for high-value products, which it hopes to lift to 40-50% of total sales from 15% now.
SCG sees potential in its ***non-asbestos products, including fibre roof tiles, fibreboard and walls, manufactured by its affiliate, Siam Fibre-Cement.***
The products developed by its research and development unit use cellulose and synthetic fibres as main raw materials to replace asbestos, which is harmful to health and the environment. The R&D alone cost three billion baht.
The innovation won the company the SCG Innovation Award, held by the parent Siam Cement Group to encourage new ideas throughout the industrial conglomerate.
Around of 80% of asbestos-based products have been replaced by non-asbestos materials.
The rest could be replaced as demand warrants, the company says.
The new products are priced 10% higher than the asbestos equivalents but the production cost is much higher than that, Mr Pichit admitted.
He said the company had set a sales target for non-asbestos products at six billion baht this year.
Emotional tourism
Thanks. The really important part of the article is not exactly how much the dinner cost.
Essential facts about family run business empires like this are always missing from the business news, presumably because of the cost of fighting defamation suits used to muzzle the truth.
I suppose blogs are the only place one can find these facts, along with the recently published Baker and Pasuk book.
There is also the overall aesthetic, to some nauseating, of rich people making superficial ritual acknowledgements of poverty to do penance for cheating banks.
(BTW the mere statement that someone did good should never be taken on its face value. There are enough frauds out there who use charity as a sweetlooking front to a profitmaking or other self-serving enterprise. For example, orphanages or homes for street children have been used as fronts for sexual exploitation of children and even trafficking. Or allowing missionaries with their religious agendas sweeping kids, usually females, out of villages. “Charity” should not absolve one from critical scrutiny.)
Bound by tradition
It’s nice to be considered an expert but sometimes one’s unique knowledge (and neck) is stretched too far. Here is a query I received over email in 2002 (name witheld, of course), that might tickle some NM readers and the Karen:
Hello Dr. Jonsson:
I am researching an article for National Geographic Traveler magazine and I was wondering if you could help me (your name was in the COS Expertise database).
I need the correct spelling for a particular native tribe of Thailand, the Long-neck tribe. Do you know if it is spelled Long-neck or Long-Neck or Long Neck? I’ve seen all three versions.
Talk on “Democracy and Patronage in Thailand”
A Police Lt. Col. Watanasak has filed a lese majeste complaint against Jakrapob Penkair arising out of statements Jakrapob made to the FCCT…It was related to a comparison he made regarding democracy and the patronage system in Thailand. Jakrapob is quoted as denying saying offending the monarchy and has no intention to do so.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Jakapob
Interview with Justin Wintle
I imagine this interview took place at the boat house over quaffs of cherry and that it actually had to be translated from Latin whilst removing all the references to investigating foolhardy Cambridge Soviet spies in Vietnam because they’re still working for MI6 and are New Mandala readers.
Phu Mak Sop Tham: How could Vientiane be further romanticised/orientalised beyond Vespa scooters and canary yellow humidity? There would just be a giant “Billets a Vang Vieng/Tickets to Vang Vieng” sign near the bus depot and lots of pollution left by 15-30 year olds who really just wanted fish and chips, or an authentic pre planned adventuring experience. Oh wait…
Mandy Sadan: Haha, post-feminism. It’s not patriarchy!
Can farmers be trusted with debt? Part 2
DEVELOPMENT FROM BELOW IS AN APPROACH I WOULD LIKE MOST COUNTRIES TO ADOPT. WHEN WE LOOK AT THE RURAL POPULATION, WE REALISE TAHT THE RURAL POOR HAVE A LOT OF RESOURCES AT THEIR DISPOSAL, THEY PRODUCE THE GREATEST OF THE GNP OF MOST THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES, BUT THEIR STANDARDS OF LIVING IS RELATIVELY VERY LOW. THEY ARE USUALLY DISCRIMINATED UPON. THERE IS NEED FOR THEIR SITUATION TO BE UPGRADED. MOST OF THE DEVELOPMENT PLANNERS SHOULD SEE THE RURAL PEOPLE AS AN ENGINE TO DEVELOPMENT. THIS WILL GO A LONG WAY TO DEVELOP THEIR COMMUNITIES AND IMPROVE UPON THEIR STANDARDS OF LIVING.
Emotional tourism
Dear All,
it is always so convenient to judge someone or something based on a rumor. When you publish something here, please get your facts straight and do your homework. The whole event costs USD 300,000 and not per person or something. The event is an invitation by the hotel and there is no charges to the participants. Read the papers, google, or whatever. But get your facts straight, otherwise it is amateur hour.