[…] communities have their own way to conserve their forest particularly Karen which conservation is integrated with their livelihood and spirits. There are many types of […]
Travel with passion not politics
travelling independently still puts pennies in the Tan Schwe Govt’s pockets. Howver if it’s human rights issues that stops you going then don’t go anywhere in St East Asia including Thailand, Laos Cambodia and Vietnam.
I think China India and Thailand have greater imputs into Myanmars economy than you or I
Whenever I go the local economy appreciates even a cheapskate like me, they are also pleased I am there because the Govt are reticent to behave in their usual desapotic ways in areas of tourism.
When the september protests took place very few of the International media were on the ground and it was often independent tourists that relayed those scenes over the internet
Burma is a beuatiful unspoilt country and whatever you decide I love it and it’s people and those of us that do go certainly keep it in the worlds eye when we report back our own feelings
travel with passion not politics
There is coal mining in those there hills. It is a huge industry, and is, no pun intended, the bedrock of some township economies. Digboi is also an integral part of India’a oil industry and Assam Oil has been there since colonial times.
Even though it is not marked on that map, I think that the railway spur out to Ledo is still used. The railway station in Tinsukia is a big one and I think that the trains still run out to Ledo. That said, rail services in upper Assam (perhaps apart from the coal transport) have a mixed reputation these days. Not sure how regular any services would be.
From your map it looks like the railhead is now Digboi. Or Dingboi on some maps. There is coal mining in these hills right? Hence the hard-left presence. Having lived in mining towns, I definitely sympathise – even if I may not always vote that way myself.
Ledo is just on the Assam side of the border between Arunachal Pradesh and Assam. A map (but without much detail) is available here.
This map of Tinsukia district gives a more detailed picture of how everything fits together, and places Ledo quite precisely compared to other available sources.
Today Ledo is a relatively small town. Tinsukia is, on the other hand, a really substantial trading and industrial centre.
As an aside, there is a big hard-left political presence in those parts. The “hammer and sickle” are to be seen painted on many walls in the towns of upper Assam.
I’ve got some of Tony Wheeler’s old Lonely Planet guides on my bookshelf, and I’ve travelled in Burma, so I can’t condemn anyone out of hand who goes there. But there is no doubt that in the 1990s, in the run up to the “Year to Visit Myanmar” people had land confiscated to build things like Traders Hotel, and that people were dragooned into working on projects like the Putao airstrip. It seems that given the rather direct negative impacts of tourism on ordinary Burmese, you’d have to come up with a pretty good reason to go there.
Also, is anyone going to deny that the military regime is corrupt, and that business people don’t have to pay them off? Tourism is no different than timber; the regime gets its cut, so yes you do support the regime on some level by going there.
Finally, I find the idea that foreigners visiting Burma some how empowers the Burmese people incredible. The Kachin farmers or Wa people I knew up in the Northern Shan State don’t need any foreigners to strengthen their will.
Sidh S: “…who would have thought, in the midst of the PMHoward years in government that the next head of government will say “sorry” to the Aboriginal stolen generations…” Well, everyone really. I don’t think anyone had any doubt whatsoever that one of the first things Labor would do would be to say ‘sorry.’ This was a popular movement, espoused even by many who voted for Howard. When it first became an issue, Sir William Dean, the Governor General (Head of State), made it very clear that he was in favour – & he actually apologised-, despite Howard’s (Head of Government) refusal to do so on behalf of the Australian people & government.
This was in the category of ‘an idea whose time has come.’ It was vigorously and openly discussed by everyone, from schoolkids and uni students to the clergy. This makes it an entirely inappropriate analogy to the current situation in Thailand, where pigs will keep eating & shopping, cringeing & waihing. “Pigs will fly?” I don’t think so.
Thoroughly agree with all of the above. Burmese people need to know they haven’t been forgotten, and they need money. Just try not to support upper-class businesses. Good on Lonely Planet!
Good point by Alfred at #33.
But as I implied – patience is the virtue here and “pigs will fly” in Thai democracy. Never discount that!
I will use the case of Australia – who would have thought, in the midst of the PMHoward years in government that the next head of government will say “sorry” to the Aboriginal stolen generations, a result of formal government polices from early to mid-20th century. And I feel privileged to ‘live’ through that historical moment.
One day, I believe, when histories are more objectively revealed and unravelled, Thai society will reach that point (as I implied in #24). We may not live to see it as those found accountable will not live to be tried – as is the case of Australia (and as is the case of historical patterns. Atrocities and crimes are always commited in war and societal conflicts. Those in the ‘winning’ side can only be ‘tried’ post-humous.).
I also concede that the narrative that will take us there is that of “song mai ao” – not my self-described ‘critical royalist’ views nor AjarnSomsak’s extreme anti-royalist stances, the latter two (or three if we include the nationalist-royalists, who won’t bother turning up here!) will only play supporting roles.
Meanwhile, real-time events are hotting up as I write. The House Speaker gets red-carded and PMThaksin plans to fly back tomorrow (impatient with PMSamak?! Will this be a case of ‘two heads is better than one’ or ‘two tigers can’t share the same cave’???)
Speaking of Putao, as I understand it there is a relatively new, foreigner-operated tourist facility up there. It goes by the name Malikha Lodge and was founded by Brett Melzer and Khin Omar Win who I take it are the owners of Balloons over Bagan. I haven’t been (and, anyway, I certainly couldn’t afford the rates I have seen quoted – 3 nights for $1350 per head!). Their handsome website is, however, worth a visit.
Is this the direction that even more tourism in Burma would go if Lonely Planet caved in? As I see it, at least the Lonely Planet gives readers some of an idea (sometimes great, sometimes not so wonderful) for what goes on in the country, in its many (non-luxury) parts. Kudos to Lonely Planet for holding the line after all these years of mud-slinging.
And, just to add a further two cents, who doesn’t have a Lonely Planet (or three) on their desk? I often find them a handy reference for all sorts of reasons. Immediate guidance for tourists is only part of what their books offer the world.
And, just as an aside, this Balloons over Bhutan thing (also operated by the same company) looks amazing! Check it out.
The airport in Putao was extended and improved using forced labor back in the 1990s, supposedly to facilitate tourism (see “Stop Press” in Conde Nast Traveller, June 1995 for one citation), so I guess you can put Putao on your target list, if the regime would actually let you go and help out the poor folks there with tourist dollars and thereby strengthen the urge for democracy.
Maybe military shooting a Japanese journalist on film and beaten up unarmed monks has more to do with the decrease in tourism, rather than a call to boycott Lonely Planet.
Michael, Somsak’s position (if one can find it after the unnecessary abuse and misrepresentation) obscures the issues of the present and requires that to address present injustices requires that all historical injustices are addressed. In any case, just as those subject to injustices during the 1970s and 1980s remain in a kind of judicial purgatory.
What? This is less clear than Somsak’s position and his overbearing caps lock. Obscure the issues of the present? But these issues are in the present – the present issue being discussed, I think, is that the monarchy place themselves above the constitution whilst supporting democratic constitutional rule publicly? Judicial purgatory everywhere (not just victims of supreme crimes) is the issue! The illegitimacy of governments under the monarchy is just a symptom of having to navigate one institution’s absolute control through muddy waters.
I think Somsak is asking questions that don’t require so much intellectualising.
Pro-PPP: Come on, please spell out just who is manipulating Samak, Chalerm, Jakrapob et al, to make them look bad?
On the other matter, yes there is (justified) criticism of PPP here, but AW seems a little reluctant to comment on PPP, whereas I seem to recall he was not so hesitant when it came to the ‘Old Ginger’ cabinet and the ‘Democrat-except-when-we-cannot-win-an-election-and-then-a-coup-is-ok Party’.
I concede that both AW & Republican have commented on Samak’s Oct 6 lies, although I must have missed their commentary on other recent events such as Samak on Tak Bai, Samak & Chalerm on W-O-D, Jakrapob’s media interference, Sunai’s transfer etc
nganadeeleg seems to be reading another blog. There’s plenty of criticism of PPP here.
And yes, the Bangkok elite continues to deserve criticism for supporting and manufacturing a military coup and a constitution that demands coalition government and continued corruption in politics. They are to blame. But that doesn’t make Samak and PPP a party of angels. PPP is the Frankenstein creation of an elite strategy that failed. The outcome is likely to be increasingly awful. But maybe that is what the elite wants?
They haven’t given up trying to manipulate events and outcomes. It seems clear that there are elite manipulators who believe that by helping to make the PPP look really, really bad and by nibbling away at their numbers in parliament that the outcome might be a coalition led by Democrats.
The elite seems prepared to take the long road home, but certainly not the high road.
I think Ajarn Somsak has a point that hasn’t expressed all that clearly. The monarchy has been associated with some decidedly nasty political events and keeps getting away with it – the teflon monarchy perhaps? Despite all the huff and puff over legitimacy and multiple meanings, there is a case that the monarchy and this king should be held accountable.
And, as Ajarn Somsak implies, this accountability should apply to the palace’s allies and the agents of the state. It should also apply to Thaksin and TRT and every other member of the rotten elite that controls Thailand.
Fat chance of that though! Maybe the pigs will fly some day.
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The “Karen consensus” strawman is alive and well
[…] communities have their own way to conserve their forest particularly Karen which conservation is integrated with their livelihood and spirits. There are many types of […]
Call for Lonely Planet boycott
Travel with passion not politics
travelling independently still puts pennies in the Tan Schwe Govt’s pockets. Howver if it’s human rights issues that stops you going then don’t go anywhere in St East Asia including Thailand, Laos Cambodia and Vietnam.
I think China India and Thailand have greater imputs into Myanmars economy than you or I
Whenever I go the local economy appreciates even a cheapskate like me, they are also pleased I am there because the Govt are reticent to behave in their usual desapotic ways in areas of tourism.
When the september protests took place very few of the International media were on the ground and it was often independent tourists that relayed those scenes over the internet
Burma is a beuatiful unspoilt country and whatever you decide I love it and it’s people and those of us that do go certainly keep it in the worlds eye when we report back our own feelings
travel with passion not politics
The Stilwell Road
Yes, Chennault,
There is coal mining in those there hills. It is a huge industry, and is, no pun intended, the bedrock of some township economies. Digboi is also an integral part of India’a oil industry and Assam Oil has been there since colonial times.
Even though it is not marked on that map, I think that the railway spur out to Ledo is still used. The railway station in Tinsukia is a big one and I think that the trains still run out to Ledo. That said, rail services in upper Assam (perhaps apart from the coal transport) have a mixed reputation these days. Not sure how regular any services would be.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
The Stilwell Road
From your map it looks like the railhead is now Digboi. Or Dingboi on some maps. There is coal mining in these hills right? Hence the hard-left presence. Having lived in mining towns, I definitely sympathise – even if I may not always vote that way myself.
The Stilwell Road
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ledo_Road
The Stilwell Road
Slightly East of Magherita, but not as far as the Likhapani railway on this war-derived map and zoomed inset:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Allied_lines_of_communication_in_Southeast_Asia%2C_1942-43.jpg
The Stilwell Road
Hi Chennault,
Ledo is just on the Assam side of the border between Arunachal Pradesh and Assam. A map (but without much detail) is available here.
This map of Tinsukia district gives a more detailed picture of how everything fits together, and places Ledo quite precisely compared to other available sources.
Today Ledo is a relatively small town. Tinsukia is, on the other hand, a really substantial trading and industrial centre.
As an aside, there is a big hard-left political presence in those parts. The “hammer and sickle” are to be seen painted on many walls in the towns of upper Assam.
All best wishes,
Nich
The Stilwell Road
Can anyone pinpoint Ledo? I can’t find it on any map. I’ve seen several maps with roads marked as ‘Ledo’ or ‘Stilwell Road’, but never Ledo itself.
The Stilwell Road
Chennault,
Of course, that is no problem at all – thanks for asking!
Thanks Jon,
I will chase up Forgotten Armies. It sounds like a great read.
All best wishes,
Nich
Call for Lonely Planet boycott
I’ve got some of Tony Wheeler’s old Lonely Planet guides on my bookshelf, and I’ve travelled in Burma, so I can’t condemn anyone out of hand who goes there. But there is no doubt that in the 1990s, in the run up to the “Year to Visit Myanmar” people had land confiscated to build things like Traders Hotel, and that people were dragooned into working on projects like the Putao airstrip. It seems that given the rather direct negative impacts of tourism on ordinary Burmese, you’d have to come up with a pretty good reason to go there.
Also, is anyone going to deny that the military regime is corrupt, and that business people don’t have to pay them off? Tourism is no different than timber; the regime gets its cut, so yes you do support the regime on some level by going there.
Finally, I find the idea that foreigners visiting Burma some how empowers the Burmese people incredible. The Kachin farmers or Wa people I knew up in the Northern Shan State don’t need any foreigners to strengthen their will.
The electorate and the “acute state of Thai politics”
Sidh S: “…who would have thought, in the midst of the PMHoward years in government that the next head of government will say “sorry” to the Aboriginal stolen generations…” Well, everyone really. I don’t think anyone had any doubt whatsoever that one of the first things Labor would do would be to say ‘sorry.’ This was a popular movement, espoused even by many who voted for Howard. When it first became an issue, Sir William Dean, the Governor General (Head of State), made it very clear that he was in favour – & he actually apologised-, despite Howard’s (Head of Government) refusal to do so on behalf of the Australian people & government.
This was in the category of ‘an idea whose time has come.’ It was vigorously and openly discussed by everyone, from schoolkids and uni students to the clergy. This makes it an entirely inappropriate analogy to the current situation in Thailand, where pigs will keep eating & shopping, cringeing & waihing. “Pigs will fly?” I don’t think so.
Call for Lonely Planet boycott
Thoroughly agree with all of the above. Burmese people need to know they haven’t been forgotten, and they need money. Just try not to support upper-class businesses. Good on Lonely Planet!
The electorate and the “acute state of Thai politics”
Good point by Alfred at #33.
But as I implied – patience is the virtue here and “pigs will fly” in Thai democracy. Never discount that!
I will use the case of Australia – who would have thought, in the midst of the PMHoward years in government that the next head of government will say “sorry” to the Aboriginal stolen generations, a result of formal government polices from early to mid-20th century. And I feel privileged to ‘live’ through that historical moment.
One day, I believe, when histories are more objectively revealed and unravelled, Thai society will reach that point (as I implied in #24). We may not live to see it as those found accountable will not live to be tried – as is the case of Australia (and as is the case of historical patterns. Atrocities and crimes are always commited in war and societal conflicts. Those in the ‘winning’ side can only be ‘tried’ post-humous.).
I also concede that the narrative that will take us there is that of “song mai ao” – not my self-described ‘critical royalist’ views nor AjarnSomsak’s extreme anti-royalist stances, the latter two (or three if we include the nationalist-royalists, who won’t bother turning up here!) will only play supporting roles.
Meanwhile, real-time events are hotting up as I write. The House Speaker gets red-carded and PMThaksin plans to fly back tomorrow (impatient with PMSamak?! Will this be a case of ‘two heads is better than one’ or ‘two tigers can’t share the same cave’???)
Call for Lonely Planet boycott
Speaking of Putao, as I understand it there is a relatively new, foreigner-operated tourist facility up there. It goes by the name Malikha Lodge and was founded by Brett Melzer and Khin Omar Win who I take it are the owners of Balloons over Bagan. I haven’t been (and, anyway, I certainly couldn’t afford the rates I have seen quoted – 3 nights for $1350 per head!). Their handsome website is, however, worth a visit.
Is this the direction that even more tourism in Burma would go if Lonely Planet caved in? As I see it, at least the Lonely Planet gives readers some of an idea (sometimes great, sometimes not so wonderful) for what goes on in the country, in its many (non-luxury) parts. Kudos to Lonely Planet for holding the line after all these years of mud-slinging.
And, just to add a further two cents, who doesn’t have a Lonely Planet (or three) on their desk? I often find them a handy reference for all sorts of reasons. Immediate guidance for tourists is only part of what their books offer the world.
And, just as an aside, this Balloons over Bhutan thing (also operated by the same company) looks amazing! Check it out.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Call for Lonely Planet boycott
The airport in Putao was extended and improved using forced labor back in the 1990s, supposedly to facilitate tourism (see “Stop Press” in Conde Nast Traveller, June 1995 for one citation), so I guess you can put Putao on your target list, if the regime would actually let you go and help out the poor folks there with tourist dollars and thereby strengthen the urge for democracy.
Maybe military shooting a Japanese journalist on film and beaten up unarmed monks has more to do with the decrease in tourism, rather than a call to boycott Lonely Planet.
The electorate and the “acute state of Thai politics”
Michael,
Somsak’s position (if one can find it after the unnecessary abuse and misrepresentation) obscures the issues of the present and requires that to address present injustices requires that all historical injustices are addressed. In any case, just as those subject to injustices during the 1970s and 1980s remain in a kind of judicial purgatory.
What? This is less clear than Somsak’s position and his overbearing caps lock. Obscure the issues of the present? But these issues are in the present – the present issue being discussed, I think, is that the monarchy place themselves above the constitution whilst supporting democratic constitutional rule publicly? Judicial purgatory everywhere (not just victims of supreme crimes) is the issue! The illegitimacy of governments under the monarchy is just a symptom of having to navigate one institution’s absolute control through muddy waters.
I think Somsak is asking questions that don’t require so much intellectualising.
Interview with Professor Janet Sturgeon
Thanks for providing us with yet another interesting interview.
In addition, I certainly recommend Janet’s book.
A new look at “populist” policies
Pro-PPP: Come on, please spell out just who is manipulating Samak, Chalerm, Jakrapob et al, to make them look bad?
On the other matter, yes there is (justified) criticism of PPP here, but AW seems a little reluctant to comment on PPP, whereas I seem to recall he was not so hesitant when it came to the ‘Old Ginger’ cabinet and the ‘Democrat-except-when-we-cannot-win-an-election-and-then-a-coup-is-ok Party’.
I concede that both AW & Republican have commented on Samak’s Oct 6 lies, although I must have missed their commentary on other recent events such as Samak on Tak Bai, Samak & Chalerm on W-O-D, Jakrapob’s media interference, Sunai’s transfer etc
A new look at “populist” policies
nganadeeleg seems to be reading another blog. There’s plenty of criticism of PPP here.
And yes, the Bangkok elite continues to deserve criticism for supporting and manufacturing a military coup and a constitution that demands coalition government and continued corruption in politics. They are to blame. But that doesn’t make Samak and PPP a party of angels. PPP is the Frankenstein creation of an elite strategy that failed. The outcome is likely to be increasingly awful. But maybe that is what the elite wants?
They haven’t given up trying to manipulate events and outcomes. It seems clear that there are elite manipulators who believe that by helping to make the PPP look really, really bad and by nibbling away at their numbers in parliament that the outcome might be a coalition led by Democrats.
The elite seems prepared to take the long road home, but certainly not the high road.
The electorate and the “acute state of Thai politics”
I think Ajarn Somsak has a point that hasn’t expressed all that clearly. The monarchy has been associated with some decidedly nasty political events and keeps getting away with it – the teflon monarchy perhaps? Despite all the huff and puff over legitimacy and multiple meanings, there is a case that the monarchy and this king should be held accountable.
And, as Ajarn Somsak implies, this accountability should apply to the palace’s allies and the agents of the state. It should also apply to Thaksin and TRT and every other member of the rotten elite that controls Thailand.
Fat chance of that though! Maybe the pigs will fly some day.