Oh Dear, I just come late…nobody has perfect.
I just curious if you love someone beyond your heart, will you care he’s right or not? Like I love my dad, I didn’t expect he will do right always. So, I love my king…I have most seen he has always take good care to the people during my whole life, why don’t I should love him?
I actually don’t normally pay attention to wheather forecasts. Moreover, metereologists are also experts, and should we not rather have a crowd of non-experts looking up into the sky and then use their judgement as a wheather forecast for the next few days? That would fit the other examples, such as jelly bean counting, or guessing the weight of a cow, no? 🙂
So it muct be all those nasty Chinese immigrants or rotten farang investors who have driven the agenda for cults of wealth, industrialisation and consumption?
Of course I mean popular in a negative sense. But I mean it to be nothing more than popular too. If you see there is no need for an alternative, how can you be sure populism is correct? Isn’t it a blind stab in the dark? It has reason only because you have faith in it and for a system that governs huge amounts of people this sort of faith amounts to political tyranny because there is no deliberation over whether or not the faith in what is popular is misguided. In 1932, there was a democratic system in Germany, then some ideas became very popular through a certain triumphant will and then the Germans fervently decided democracy wasn’t for them. The system of democracy must be placed ahead popular approval so that populism cannot dislodge the system and incidents like WW2 do not happen again. But with your rhetoric – you seem to be suggesting that it should! Futhermore you keep saying “if you ask” Who exactly is asking the cavemen, the group of 40 etc these questions? A mystical western academic? The quiet guy sitting in the corner of the group? Lunacy.
I feel that Nishizaki is correct mostly because morality does not largely develop with what you can be taught from a book .. (Although books can serve as actors to point you in a direction) Teach them about democracy? I don’t see how this can be viewed without a condescending tone. Taxi Driver, do you feel that teaching people about democracy is a precursor to allowing popular approval? Nishizaki provides a much more forgiving analysis and it doesn’t seem to be argued from a base that has shaped our mistakes with populism here in the West.
There’s not much to tell. An ex-KIA soldier, who had settled in Thailand and worked as trekking guide, ran across them on one of his treks. They reminded him of the traditional burial mounds of the duwa in the Kachin State. He asked around, and found that only the Lawa had a tradition of burying in mounds but they built their mounds on the side of the mountain, or that was what he was told. There was a Kachin pastor living in Chiang Mai, a Rawang seminary student, and friend of mine and I that went with the guide to look at them. There were 3(?) low mounds on the top of a mountain. They had been looted for artifacts by the locals. One item that we did see that one of the locals hadn’t sold yet was a small polished stone axhead. My Kachin friend said that traditionally these were believed by the Kachins to be the tip of a thunder bolt, and were kept by the duwa, I suppose as a symbol of their descent from the sky nat. The Kachins thought they looked like traditional Kachin tombs, but I think it would be difficult to establish that with any certainty.
[…] Taxi Driver wrote an interesting post today on Comment on Power, violence, politics and truth by Taxi DriverHere’s a quick excerptTeth: statistics is about expected outcomes. Srithanonchai’s (and mine) examples of appendicitis victims are just single examples, and as you correctly suspected, are within the range of possible outcomes allowed. … […]
Teth: statistics is about expected outcomes. Srithanonchai’s (and mine) examples of appendicitis victims are just single examples, and as you correctly suspected, are within the range of possible outcomes allowed. It is very common for people to reject statistical prediction because they encounter a few outcomes that was not close to what was predicted. The weather may not always turn out to be as predicted, but I think even Srithanonchai pays attention to weather forecasts.
I’m sure there are population parameters that can affect the concensus of the group. If you asked a group of cavemen to move a rock, they would not come up with a wheel(barrow), let alone a bulldozer.I don’t think anyone has claimed that crowds can come up with new inventions. With crowds, however, you benefit from tacit information (info that’s already there, including ‘experience’). Ask one caveman and he might suggest to lift the rock with his bare hands; ask enough cavemen and you’ll probably find the best solution that caveman technology can provide (cantilevers?). Information dissemination is not a problem when you have a diverse enough crowd. The info will ‘rise to the top’.
But to relate all this back to 2008 Thailand: I would rather have a leader selected by a crowd, than a leader selected by a bunch of white haired privy councillors. Some individuals may think they ‘know better’ than others, but their decision(s) do not provide a systematically superior outcome.
Grasshopper: I’d like to be able to answer your question, but I think we need to agree on a definition of ‘populism’. If you mean populism in a negative sense (e.g. Pauline Hanson’s populism appealing to a group/class of people to target another) then education might be an answer. If you mean populism as nothing more than ‘popular’ then I don’t see there needs to be any alternative.
Ngarn#15: “What about those ‘ignorant’ of ‘known’ information”
In the context of EMH these people would be considered irrational, and EMH assumes all stock market participants are rational (i.e. they take into account all known information).
But I think I know what you’re getting at: I think you meant ‘ignorant of information they should have known’, right? For example smokers who keep on smoking despite the warning labels on the pack; or, as I’m sure you’re implying, dumb rural folk who vote for Thaksin?
You know I don’t subscribe to that view. Smokers might be chemically addicted to Nicotine, but voters aren’t ‘addicted’ to populist policies.
I should have mentioned that too. There were Han from Myitkyina and Bhamo, aswell as those who had come from Longchuan, Ruili, Kunming, and many points further away.
I would love to know more about these tombs near Pai. Any more information would be much appreciated.
Back in 1992 I was with some Kachins, one of whom was an ex-KIA soldier, looking at some tombs around Pai, Thailand that the Kachins might be of duwas that had died while fighting as mercenaries for the Burmese during the wars between the Thais and Burmese. On this trip we met a Han Chinese man living in a Lisu village in the area who had also served in the KIA. I’ve heard of Shan, Chinese, and Gurhkas (descendents of British era soldiers) all serving in the KIA. While the majority of Han at the Manau were from China, I suspect there might have been some locals with ties to the Kachins.
interesting article from the Bangkok Post on the odd impact of the latest Rambo film inside Burma………………
Feature: Burma fears Rambo
(BangkokPost.com – Feb 3, 2008)
Burmese officials have banned even pirated copies of the new Rambo movie, and Hollywood’s Sylvester Stallone says he’d love to go to Rangoon and confront the junta face to face.
“These incredibly brave people have found, kind of a voice, in a very odd way, in American cinema… They’ve actually used some of the film’s quotes as rallying points,” said Stallone, 61, in a telephone interview with the Reuters news agency.
“That, to me, is the one of the proudest moments I’ve ever had in film,” he told Reuters.
Police in Burma have given market sellers strict orders not to sell pirated copies of the flick.
Just two weeks into its commercial release (panned by most US critics, highly rated by audiences in the US), the movie is available in black-market editions under the counter in markets in Rangoon and towns along the Thai border.
In the movie, ageing war veteran John Rambo, played by Stallone, ventures into Burma to rescue a group of Christian aid workers who were kidnapped by a ruthless local infantry unit.
“Rambo acted very cruelly, but his cruelty is nothing compared to that of the military junta,” a Burmese student in Thailand was quoted by Reuters.
In Rangoon, local people said Burmese have gone crazy over lines from the film such as
* When you’re pushed, killing’s as easy as breathing.
* Burma’s a warzone.
* Rambo: Are you bringing in any weapons?
Aid worker: Of course not.
Rambo: You’re not changin’ anything.
The tagline of the blood and guts movie is: “Live for nothing, die for something.”
Stallone’s movie specifically focuses on the Karen near the Thai border. The Karen and other groups have suffered half a million cases of forced relocation and thousands more have been imprisoned, tortured or killed by the military dictators.
Stallone told Reuters that he hopes the film can provoke a confrontation.
“I’m only hoping that the Burmese military, because they take such incredible offence to this, would call it lies and scurrilous propaganda. Why don’t you invite me over?” he said.
“Let me take a tour of your country without someone pointing a gun at my head and we’ll show you where all the bodies are buried… Or let’s go debate in Washington in front of a congressional hearing,” the movie star said to Reuters.
“But I doubt that’s going to happen.”
Stallone said he was happy with what he described as “the bloodiest, R-rated film (for) a generation” and hoped to make another.
“It will depend on the success of this one, but right now I think I’m gearing one up. It will be quite different,” he said.
Thanks Grasshopper and Aiontay. These are, again, really good questions and I will do my best to answer them here. Thanks for sending them through.
1) Christianity, Animism and the Manau:
As you both know, the vast majority of Kachin are now Christians. Most are Baptists or Catholics but there are also congregations with other protestant affiliations. The Assemblies of God, Presbyterians and many others all have a presence in the Kachin State. The Baptists are, however, still the dominant denomination.
On this most recent visit to Myitkyina I only talked to one person who claimed to maintain animist beliefs, and who had not converted to Christianity. Of all the other people I talked to about religion he was the only one who stated his ongoing commitment to the animism of his forefathers. His children were, however, Christians. In his case I expect that the maintenance of the old beliefs has more to do with traditional land claims and rights (as an hereditary chief) than with any other cultural or political agenda.
The young Kachin of my acquaintance are all aware of the animist origins of Manau festivals. When discussing those origins they are far more likely to talk about “tradition” and “culture” than “religion”. Some even described the festivities as part of “our pagan history”. Any inconsistency between those traditions and today’s Christianity is apparently unproblematic. Senior Christian figures from across the Kachin State all patronised this most recent Manau. As Aiontay notes, Christianity now co-exists side-by-side with the Manau and its symbols.
The Manau (whatever its roots) has now become the primary way of packaging Kachin unity, culture and history for both internal and external consumption. Perhaps there are some who feel that it is a (non-Christian) relic that should be discarded. But I have not heard that view put, and certainly at the Manau itself even the most ardent Christians were seemingly supportive of the “tradition”.
The way that Christianity has been welded to the Manau is a topic that deserves much greater analysis. The Manau has strategic value. Of course, so does Christianity. These are huge issues for any study of the spiritual and material politics of northern Burma.
2) Singpho from India:
I did not hear of any contingents making the trip from India. The road between Myitkyina and the Indian border is still pretty basic – and so it is a much more difficult trip. Nonetheless, it would not surprise me if small groups from India had come across to Burma.
Of course, from Laiza (on the Sino-Burmese frontier) it is less than 3 hours to Myitkyina these days because the road has been so greatly improved. There were a large number of not only Chinese Jingpo at the Manau but also great numbers of Han Chinese. Many of these Han were at the Manau for, as much as anything, the opportunity to cultivate relationships. With many of the Kachin jade tycoons, important Burmese Army contacts, and leaders of various ceasefire groups hanging around, the Manau presented a great opportunity for Chinese businesspeople to make deals. Many came down from Laiza or up from Bhamo in convoys of four-wheel drive vehicles. From the Indian side there was no equivalent migration.
There will, however, be a Singpho Manau in mid-February 2008 in a border district of India’s Arunachal Pradesh. It will, I expect, draw a good crowd from the Kachin State. I’m not sure if anybody from Myitkyina will make the trip but it would seem likely that those from areas adjacent (like the Hukawng valley) would attend.
[i]Grasshopper: “What if the doctors truth is able to be more expressed than anyone else?” – I think its part & parcel of the package (i.e. normal) that some may be able to hog the airwaves more than others (sort of like what I’m doing right now on NM 🙂 ), but I think the crowd is able to discern it. Otherwise we’d all use the same brand of shampoo!
I don’t think that whatever is popular is necessarily good, but I make that judgement from an individual perspective, based on my own moral compass which may or may not be the same as others’. I have the right to tell others that I believe whatever is popular is grotesque (Paris Hilton, Britney Spiers etc) but that does not necessarily mean I’m the right one and everyone else is wrong. There are universal truths (1+1 =2, perhaps even E=MC2) and there are opinions (Paris is grotesque).[/i]
But how individual are individuals? We’re all influenced by a culture of popularity. Perhaps morality will be popular one year? That wouldn’t be good either. The grotesque could just be ‘sharing guilt with blood spilled in accordance with the dow jones’, does your moral compass find itself in that guilt? Perhaps it should, but then it doesnt because it is really too difficult, so one justifies another angle ‘well I didn’t want it to be this way, I never voted for them in our democracy’, and so the crowd of people adopt an armchair democracy attitude. The armchair conscientious objectors. I would find it tremendously sad if Thailand adopted our style of democracy (the archetype of ‘developed’ with statistical correctness) to lose it’s own developed sense of right and wrong.
I wanted to know your opinion on what an alternative ingredient to populism in democracy would be, but I didn’t articulate it very well. Is there one?
Taxi driver, I also find statistics a very convincing field but I find your application of the efficient market hypothesis a bit faulty.
As Srithanonchai illustrates with anecdotal evidence, your suggestion that a group of 40 randomly selected people from a population will be better informed than any single expert can be incorrect. But as someone who deals with statistics, I’m sure you will brush that off as a possible but not significant nor likely case.
However, besides all the practical arguments against what you’ve brought up, I think there can also be a theoretical limitation to your idea, as Ladyboy and nganadeeleg have bought up with regards to the dissemination of information. Surely, there must also be population parameters that can affect what the consensus of the group? For instance, the amalgamation of 40 randomly selected experts in a particular field should produce a more accurate result than 40 randomly selected non-experts? Furthermore, the examples you gave (jellybeans, weight) were cases where members of the group could have given any number. Specific to medicine, how would a group of 40 non experts diagnose a condition that would never have heard of before?
Ladyboy, your suggestion reminds me of Isaac Asimov’s short story, The Final Question. It is all about the numbers these days and I think it is absolutely rational for humanity to move into a statistics-oriented world. Already, the think tanks and governments are geared more and more towards number crunching but there is a staggering lack of comprehension with what to do with the numbers. It would be interesting to see what would happen if statisticians and computer scientists led the world.
I would definitely like to hear Nicholas’ response, but I can tell you that you will routinely find those aminist Manau post designs on Kachin Baptist churches all across the Kachin areas of the Shan State. You’ll also see them on Kachin houses and Kachin owned businesses in Rangoon and Mandalay.
These really are good pictures Nicholas and it is great that you took them and are presenting them here. Was there a contingent of Singhpo from India? I suppose it would be much more difficult for them to get there than the group from China.
You could fund further trips by selling photos to Lonely Planet.. Unfortunately my uni library only has reprints on Burma written by Jesuit missionaries from the 19C. Searching for just Manau on Google refers me to a rubbish French group who’ve adopted the name. *steps on soap box* perhaps someone should inform google that perhaps 500,000 people attended this. *steps off* Searching for Kachin and Manau only really reveals sites which assume you know, so forgive me for asking questions that are beneath you again; but as I understand it, the post designs are inspired by animist beliefs; have the Kachin groups upheld these beliefs in relation to animism or have the Manau posts (or even the traditional dress for the dances) become to be more symbols of the various political agendas? Did you find ordinary younger people at the Manau aware of it’s animist meanings?
It would be good if Rambo finishes peacefully after chasing the tatmadaw all the way to a Manau and then pans to a wide shot of people having a good time. Probably Rambo would have to attack the tatmadaw still, but at least ‘Burmese’ people would not be mostly remembered via cinemas for decapitations.
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More debate on The King Never Smiles
Oh Dear, I just come late…nobody has perfect.
I just curious if you love someone beyond your heart, will you care he’s right or not? Like I love my dad, I didn’t expect he will do right always. So, I love my king…I have most seen he has always take good care to the people during my whole life, why don’t I should love him?
Respectful person can’t make an overnight!
Rambo vs. SPDC: Thais ask for “reasonable” violence
[…] readers may recall that back in November 2006 the director of the Thailand Film Office, Wanasiri Morakul, said, in relation to the new Rambo […]
Power, violence, politics and truth
I actually don’t normally pay attention to wheather forecasts. Moreover, metereologists are also experts, and should we not rather have a crowd of non-experts looking up into the sky and then use their judgement as a wheather forecast for the next few days? That would fit the other examples, such as jelly bean counting, or guessing the weight of a cow, no? 🙂
Royal misrepresentation of rural livelihoods
So it muct be all those nasty Chinese immigrants or rotten farang investors who have driven the agenda for cults of wealth, industrialisation and consumption?
Power, violence, politics and truth
Of course I mean popular in a negative sense. But I mean it to be nothing more than popular too. If you see there is no need for an alternative, how can you be sure populism is correct? Isn’t it a blind stab in the dark? It has reason only because you have faith in it and for a system that governs huge amounts of people this sort of faith amounts to political tyranny because there is no deliberation over whether or not the faith in what is popular is misguided. In 1932, there was a democratic system in Germany, then some ideas became very popular through a certain triumphant will and then the Germans fervently decided democracy wasn’t for them. The system of democracy must be placed ahead popular approval so that populism cannot dislodge the system and incidents like WW2 do not happen again. But with your rhetoric – you seem to be suggesting that it should! Futhermore you keep saying “if you ask” Who exactly is asking the cavemen, the group of 40 etc these questions? A mystical western academic? The quiet guy sitting in the corner of the group? Lunacy.
I feel that Nishizaki is correct mostly because morality does not largely develop with what you can be taught from a book .. (Although books can serve as actors to point you in a direction) Teach them about democracy? I don’t see how this can be viewed without a condescending tone. Taxi Driver, do you feel that teaching people about democracy is a precursor to allowing popular approval? Nishizaki provides a much more forgiving analysis and it doesn’t seem to be argued from a base that has shaped our mistakes with populism here in the West.
From the Manau ground in Myitkyina
There’s not much to tell. An ex-KIA soldier, who had settled in Thailand and worked as trekking guide, ran across them on one of his treks. They reminded him of the traditional burial mounds of the duwa in the Kachin State. He asked around, and found that only the Lawa had a tradition of burying in mounds but they built their mounds on the side of the mountain, or that was what he was told. There was a Kachin pastor living in Chiang Mai, a Rawang seminary student, and friend of mine and I that went with the guide to look at them. There were 3(?) low mounds on the top of a mountain. They had been looted for artifacts by the locals. One item that we did see that one of the locals hadn’t sold yet was a small polished stone axhead. My Kachin friend said that traditionally these were believed by the Kachins to be the tip of a thunder bolt, and were kept by the duwa, I suppose as a symbol of their descent from the sky nat. The Kachins thought they looked like traditional Kachin tombs, but I think it would be difficult to establish that with any certainty.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
I can understand , but do you accept canadian military personell.
Power, violence, politics and truth
[…] Taxi Driver wrote an interesting post today on Comment on Power, violence, politics and truth by Taxi DriverHere’s a quick excerptTeth: statistics is about expected outcomes. Srithanonchai’s (and mine) examples of appendicitis victims are just single examples, and as you correctly suspected, are within the range of possible outcomes allowed. … […]
Power, violence, politics and truth
Teth: statistics is about expected outcomes. Srithanonchai’s (and mine) examples of appendicitis victims are just single examples, and as you correctly suspected, are within the range of possible outcomes allowed. It is very common for people to reject statistical prediction because they encounter a few outcomes that was not close to what was predicted. The weather may not always turn out to be as predicted, but I think even Srithanonchai pays attention to weather forecasts.
I’m sure there are population parameters that can affect the concensus of the group. If you asked a group of cavemen to move a rock, they would not come up with a wheel(barrow), let alone a bulldozer.I don’t think anyone has claimed that crowds can come up with new inventions. With crowds, however, you benefit from tacit information (info that’s already there, including ‘experience’). Ask one caveman and he might suggest to lift the rock with his bare hands; ask enough cavemen and you’ll probably find the best solution that caveman technology can provide (cantilevers?). Information dissemination is not a problem when you have a diverse enough crowd. The info will ‘rise to the top’.
But to relate all this back to 2008 Thailand: I would rather have a leader selected by a crowd, than a leader selected by a bunch of white haired privy councillors. Some individuals may think they ‘know better’ than others, but their decision(s) do not provide a systematically superior outcome.
Grasshopper: I’d like to be able to answer your question, but I think we need to agree on a definition of ‘populism’. If you mean populism in a negative sense (e.g. Pauline Hanson’s populism appealing to a group/class of people to target another) then education might be an answer. If you mean populism as nothing more than ‘popular’ then I don’t see there needs to be any alternative.
Power, violence, politics and truth
Ngarn#15: “What about those ‘ignorant’ of ‘known’ information”
In the context of EMH these people would be considered irrational, and EMH assumes all stock market participants are rational (i.e. they take into account all known information).
But I think I know what you’re getting at: I think you meant ‘ignorant of information they should have known’, right? For example smokers who keep on smoking despite the warning labels on the pack; or, as I’m sure you’re implying, dumb rural folk who vote for Thaksin?
You know I don’t subscribe to that view. Smokers might be chemically addicted to Nicotine, but voters aren’t ‘addicted’ to populist policies.
Academic freedom?
I hope that’s something going to change with the new government.
Students have to be protected and not prosecuted…
Today is World Press Freedom day
[…] year I highlighted “media freedom” in Southeast Asia using the detailed comparative information provided […]
From the Manau ground in Myitkyina
Thanks Aiontay,
I should have mentioned that too. There were Han from Myitkyina and Bhamo, aswell as those who had come from Longchuan, Ruili, Kunming, and many points further away.
I would love to know more about these tombs near Pai. Any more information would be much appreciated.
From the Manau ground in Myitkyina
Back in 1992 I was with some Kachins, one of whom was an ex-KIA soldier, looking at some tombs around Pai, Thailand that the Kachins might be of duwas that had died while fighting as mercenaries for the Burmese during the wars between the Thais and Burmese. On this trip we met a Han Chinese man living in a Lisu village in the area who had also served in the KIA. I’ve heard of Shan, Chinese, and Gurhkas (descendents of British era soldiers) all serving in the KIA. While the majority of Han at the Manau were from China, I suspect there might have been some locals with ties to the Kachins.
Reviews of Rambo’s war in Burma
interesting article from the Bangkok Post on the odd impact of the latest Rambo film inside Burma………………
Feature: Burma fears Rambo
(BangkokPost.com – Feb 3, 2008)
Burmese officials have banned even pirated copies of the new Rambo movie, and Hollywood’s Sylvester Stallone says he’d love to go to Rangoon and confront the junta face to face.
“These incredibly brave people have found, kind of a voice, in a very odd way, in American cinema… They’ve actually used some of the film’s quotes as rallying points,” said Stallone, 61, in a telephone interview with the Reuters news agency.
“That, to me, is the one of the proudest moments I’ve ever had in film,” he told Reuters.
Police in Burma have given market sellers strict orders not to sell pirated copies of the flick.
Just two weeks into its commercial release (panned by most US critics, highly rated by audiences in the US), the movie is available in black-market editions under the counter in markets in Rangoon and towns along the Thai border.
In the movie, ageing war veteran John Rambo, played by Stallone, ventures into Burma to rescue a group of Christian aid workers who were kidnapped by a ruthless local infantry unit.
“Rambo acted very cruelly, but his cruelty is nothing compared to that of the military junta,” a Burmese student in Thailand was quoted by Reuters.
In Rangoon, local people said Burmese have gone crazy over lines from the film such as
* When you’re pushed, killing’s as easy as breathing.
* Burma’s a warzone.
* Rambo: Are you bringing in any weapons?
Aid worker: Of course not.
Rambo: You’re not changin’ anything.
The tagline of the blood and guts movie is: “Live for nothing, die for something.”
Stallone’s movie specifically focuses on the Karen near the Thai border. The Karen and other groups have suffered half a million cases of forced relocation and thousands more have been imprisoned, tortured or killed by the military dictators.
Stallone told Reuters that he hopes the film can provoke a confrontation.
“I’m only hoping that the Burmese military, because they take such incredible offence to this, would call it lies and scurrilous propaganda. Why don’t you invite me over?” he said.
“Let me take a tour of your country without someone pointing a gun at my head and we’ll show you where all the bodies are buried… Or let’s go debate in Washington in front of a congressional hearing,” the movie star said to Reuters.
“But I doubt that’s going to happen.”
Stallone said he was happy with what he described as “the bloodiest, R-rated film (for) a generation” and hoped to make another.
“It will depend on the success of this one, but right now I think I’m gearing one up. It will be quite different,” he said.
From the Manau ground in Myitkyina
Thanks Grasshopper and Aiontay. These are, again, really good questions and I will do my best to answer them here. Thanks for sending them through.
1) Christianity, Animism and the Manau:
As you both know, the vast majority of Kachin are now Christians. Most are Baptists or Catholics but there are also congregations with other protestant affiliations. The Assemblies of God, Presbyterians and many others all have a presence in the Kachin State. The Baptists are, however, still the dominant denomination.
On this most recent visit to Myitkyina I only talked to one person who claimed to maintain animist beliefs, and who had not converted to Christianity. Of all the other people I talked to about religion he was the only one who stated his ongoing commitment to the animism of his forefathers. His children were, however, Christians. In his case I expect that the maintenance of the old beliefs has more to do with traditional land claims and rights (as an hereditary chief) than with any other cultural or political agenda.
The young Kachin of my acquaintance are all aware of the animist origins of Manau festivals. When discussing those origins they are far more likely to talk about “tradition” and “culture” than “religion”. Some even described the festivities as part of “our pagan history”. Any inconsistency between those traditions and today’s Christianity is apparently unproblematic. Senior Christian figures from across the Kachin State all patronised this most recent Manau. As Aiontay notes, Christianity now co-exists side-by-side with the Manau and its symbols.
The Manau (whatever its roots) has now become the primary way of packaging Kachin unity, culture and history for both internal and external consumption. Perhaps there are some who feel that it is a (non-Christian) relic that should be discarded. But I have not heard that view put, and certainly at the Manau itself even the most ardent Christians were seemingly supportive of the “tradition”.
The way that Christianity has been welded to the Manau is a topic that deserves much greater analysis. The Manau has strategic value. Of course, so does Christianity. These are huge issues for any study of the spiritual and material politics of northern Burma.
2) Singpho from India:
I did not hear of any contingents making the trip from India. The road between Myitkyina and the Indian border is still pretty basic – and so it is a much more difficult trip. Nonetheless, it would not surprise me if small groups from India had come across to Burma.
Of course, from Laiza (on the Sino-Burmese frontier) it is less than 3 hours to Myitkyina these days because the road has been so greatly improved. There were a large number of not only Chinese Jingpo at the Manau but also great numbers of Han Chinese. Many of these Han were at the Manau for, as much as anything, the opportunity to cultivate relationships. With many of the Kachin jade tycoons, important Burmese Army contacts, and leaders of various ceasefire groups hanging around, the Manau presented a great opportunity for Chinese businesspeople to make deals. Many came down from Laiza or up from Bhamo in convoys of four-wheel drive vehicles. From the Indian side there was no equivalent migration.
There will, however, be a Singpho Manau in mid-February 2008 in a border district of India’s Arunachal Pradesh. It will, I expect, draw a good crowd from the Kachin State. I’m not sure if anybody from Myitkyina will make the trip but it would seem likely that those from areas adjacent (like the Hukawng valley) would attend.
Thanks, again, for the great questions.
Best wishes to all.
Power, violence, politics and truth
Taxi Driver,
[i]Grasshopper: “What if the doctors truth is able to be more expressed than anyone else?” – I think its part & parcel of the package (i.e. normal) that some may be able to hog the airwaves more than others (sort of like what I’m doing right now on NM 🙂 ), but I think the crowd is able to discern it. Otherwise we’d all use the same brand of shampoo!
I don’t think that whatever is popular is necessarily good, but I make that judgement from an individual perspective, based on my own moral compass which may or may not be the same as others’. I have the right to tell others that I believe whatever is popular is grotesque (Paris Hilton, Britney Spiers etc) but that does not necessarily mean I’m the right one and everyone else is wrong. There are universal truths (1+1 =2, perhaps even E=MC2) and there are opinions (Paris is grotesque).[/i]
But how individual are individuals? We’re all influenced by a culture of popularity. Perhaps morality will be popular one year? That wouldn’t be good either. The grotesque could just be ‘sharing guilt with blood spilled in accordance with the dow jones’, does your moral compass find itself in that guilt? Perhaps it should, but then it doesnt because it is really too difficult, so one justifies another angle ‘well I didn’t want it to be this way, I never voted for them in our democracy’, and so the crowd of people adopt an armchair democracy attitude. The armchair conscientious objectors. I would find it tremendously sad if Thailand adopted our style of democracy (the archetype of ‘developed’ with statistical correctness) to lose it’s own developed sense of right and wrong.
I wanted to know your opinion on what an alternative ingredient to populism in democracy would be, but I didn’t articulate it very well. Is there one?
Power, violence, politics and truth
Taxi driver, I also find statistics a very convincing field but I find your application of the efficient market hypothesis a bit faulty.
As Srithanonchai illustrates with anecdotal evidence, your suggestion that a group of 40 randomly selected people from a population will be better informed than any single expert can be incorrect. But as someone who deals with statistics, I’m sure you will brush that off as a possible but not significant nor likely case.
However, besides all the practical arguments against what you’ve brought up, I think there can also be a theoretical limitation to your idea, as Ladyboy and nganadeeleg have bought up with regards to the dissemination of information. Surely, there must also be population parameters that can affect what the consensus of the group? For instance, the amalgamation of 40 randomly selected experts in a particular field should produce a more accurate result than 40 randomly selected non-experts? Furthermore, the examples you gave (jellybeans, weight) were cases where members of the group could have given any number. Specific to medicine, how would a group of 40 non experts diagnose a condition that would never have heard of before?
Ladyboy, your suggestion reminds me of Isaac Asimov’s short story, The Final Question. It is all about the numbers these days and I think it is absolutely rational for humanity to move into a statistics-oriented world. Already, the think tanks and governments are geared more and more towards number crunching but there is a staggering lack of comprehension with what to do with the numbers. It would be interesting to see what would happen if statisticians and computer scientists led the world.
From the Manau ground in Myitkyina
Grasshopper,
I would definitely like to hear Nicholas’ response, but I can tell you that you will routinely find those aminist Manau post designs on Kachin Baptist churches all across the Kachin areas of the Shan State. You’ll also see them on Kachin houses and Kachin owned businesses in Rangoon and Mandalay.
These really are good pictures Nicholas and it is great that you took them and are presenting them here. Was there a contingent of Singhpo from India? I suppose it would be much more difficult for them to get there than the group from China.
From the Manau ground in Myitkyina
You could fund further trips by selling photos to Lonely Planet.. Unfortunately my uni library only has reprints on Burma written by Jesuit missionaries from the 19C. Searching for just Manau on Google refers me to a rubbish French group who’ve adopted the name. *steps on soap box* perhaps someone should inform google that perhaps 500,000 people attended this. *steps off* Searching for Kachin and Manau only really reveals sites which assume you know, so forgive me for asking questions that are beneath you again; but as I understand it, the post designs are inspired by animist beliefs; have the Kachin groups upheld these beliefs in relation to animism or have the Manau posts (or even the traditional dress for the dances) become to be more symbols of the various political agendas? Did you find ordinary younger people at the Manau aware of it’s animist meanings?
It would be good if Rambo finishes peacefully after chasing the tatmadaw all the way to a Manau and then pans to a wide shot of people having a good time. Probably Rambo would have to attack the tatmadaw still, but at least ‘Burmese’ people would not be mostly remembered via cinemas for decapitations.