I couldn’t agree more. I knew nothing of the king before I came to Thailand. Since then I have read the bangkok Post and Nation newspapers everyday and not once have I ever come across any criticism of a royally funded project. You have to be amazed at the planning and attention to detail that surely goes into theses schemes. Ask yourself this: How many western agencies can boast initiatives which neither harm the environment not have any human costs?
Teth – I do understand your outrage at discovering that the Thai royals may not be the angels you were brought up to believe they were, but I think you’re being rather naive if you believe that one man could possibly have Made Everything All Right in the last 60 years & changed Thailand from being ‘a third world country,’ as you state, into a marvelously functioning developed one. How do you know to what degree he gave ‘his willing cooperation with disgusting tyrants like Sarit, Thanom, Praphas, and Narong or generals like Prem, Suchinda, and now Sonthi’? We’re talking about The Real World here, in fact the S.E.Asian Real World: complex, super-energized Machiavellian politics, where everyone has political rabies, where there are mega-fortunes to be made or lost under the table, and where ordinary people don’t matter a damn…
I’m not a Royalist, by the way. I’m not an anti-Royalist either. I don’t have to be – I’m not Thai, so it’s not my struggle. And it’s not a football match, either. I think that to be vigorously barracking for either team is to be missing the point & misapplying energy. It’s escapist.
What Thailand needs more than anything is more people with basic ethics, and more people who will stand up and support its social critics and those who are working at the grassroots level to make its institutions more decent and more effective. People like Pasuk, for example, who does honest and constructive research into abuses of various parts of the economy, should be valued. Is she? Not much, not enough. I’ve heard other academics revile her, stupidly really (no counter-argument. But that seems to be quite normal in Thai academia. Not many who could argue their way out of a 2nd-hand Chinese condom. “Not a friend of Thailand,’ they shriek.) When I hear people condemning people like her as socially divisive or deviant, I can’t help wondering what they’re hiding. And what about Sulak? Well, he is rather apt to point the finger very bluntly and publicly, and he does scare a lot of people with his preaching of celibacy – in a country where sex of all kinds is traditionally one of the main industries, and a major export commodity – but his basic message is undeniably fair and good: clean up the sangha and the society by living according to the simple principles of Buddhism. In other words, cut all the stupid “Do you like Thai culture” bullshit and ‘walk the talk.’ There are others like them, and their message is always ultimately about taking personal responsibility. The countries in the world that are enjoying a measure of democracy and freedom all had to fight for it (they were killed, tortured, reviled), and their people have to continue to do so, and many who stand up as whistle-blowers today suffer for it.
When there is a freer press, a more independent and honest judiciary, sangha, and public sector, when the military and police force can be distinguished from the criminal classes, that will be a time when ordinary people have become so sick of the corruption and brutality that they will refuse to participate in it.
I was speaking to one of my friends, who has lived here about 20 years, recently about the repugnance & hypocrisy of Thai social body-language. Earlier that day I had, in a fit of frustration, yelled ‘Get up, get up!’ to some students who had knelt beside my desk. Then, of course, I had to spend 20 minutes apologizing & explaining that in my culture, such an act symbolizes a completely unacceptable social gulf, & I would not want to teach them if I saw them as inferior, I don’t & I’m dying for my students to celebrate their intelligence, individuality, etc. My friend said, ‘Yeah, they look like whipped dogs when they waih some hi-so creep. How can you respect that?’
You all (Thai and foreigners posting here) fail to properly grasp the King’s context and who his intended audience is.
When the King speaks, his audience is mostly his loyal followers, which basically means the whole population of Thailand.
But simplified for the poor and those who have not had a chance of formal education.
When they suffered due to an economic collapse the magnitude of 1997, they looked to the King for advice. The advice was delivered in the simplest form possible for that intended audience.
The king framed his ideas under sufficiency theory in an attempt to bring comfort to those who were financially distressed and feared losing their well-being. He promised them that if they followed his simple advice, which meant falling back on the family unit and on finding modest earnings enough to feed oneself, or the family, they could survive the downturn and hopefully come thought the downturn intact.
Good advice it was.
Don’t read too much into it. Just take it at face value.
To get a bit of a historical background with regards to the dicusssion of the monarchy, I found the material provided by Scot Barmé (2002) “Woman, Man, Bangkok” very interesting, especially pages 97ff.
Teth: Ask yourself why do you insist on playing the man and not the ball.
Because you’ve thrown the ball out of the court already.
If only you’d listen or go around searching for evidence that disagrees with your propaganda which is well discussed here before whether between me and Jeru or nganadeeleg or anyone else. In fact, I’ve thrown you a few balls but (such as the 6 Oct issue) but will I have to repeat myself ten times before you decide to listen to whatever it is that goes against your barbershop views? Again, you bring up nothing but hypocrisy.
So I suggest you ask yourself why do you insist on playing the man and not the ball.
Ngarn #20…sure its possible, but I don’t think its the case. I wouldn’t sell my vote for a few hundred baht, but if someone offerred me a million baht…well, I might. I think its a rational decision making process. No duping is involved (except, ironically, maybe the vote buyer is the one who is duped since the vote seller might still tick a different box to the one he’s supposed to).
As to royalist propaganda, sure there is asymmetry of positive vs negative information due to Lese Majeste, but it just seems to me that the crucial information still seem to get through to enough people anyway. Just ask Vachiralongkorn if he thinks LM has been effective.
I also think that mania for Bhumipol (which seems to have reached hysterical levels only over the past few years) is skin deep. Scratch the surface a little and you might find most people’s regard for, and expectation of, the King is no different to their regard for and expectation of an ‘amulet’. They view this king as a ‘good’ lord, but a lord nevertheless, and superstitiuously lords might protect and give them luck, but lords aren’t interested in concepts like ‘social equality’, ‘equality under the law’, or ‘fair distribution of wealth’.
thanks mr wang xiao
for he job well done i am highly interested in you product and i will like to buy snail from you at bulk quantity so tell me what and what to do i mean per kilogram and your method of payment .
regards.
mrs erica
uk
Tel…. +447031860561
+447024038088
I’ve just read the interview former ITV journalist Jom Phetpradap conducted with Thaksin at the end of last year, which apparently was due to be broadcast on TITV but never made it [I found the transcript at Prachatai – http://www.prachatai.com/webboard/topic.php?id=680050%5D
As always Thaksin appears to show great loyalty to the throne, but then there is this great throwaway line at the end of the interview, which surely must have been no accident:
Land of Smirks and Rich Jerks – We Love You:
Can anyone remember Thaksin ever introducing a policy that wasn’t botched?
Teth: Ask yourself why do you insist on playing the man and not the ball.
FYI: Yes I was a fairly unabashed admirer of the king – about a DOZEN (12) years ago, but “I was so much older then, I’m younger than that now”.
Reading the above posts and other discussions on New Mandala over the past year+, I notice an constant underlying premise. It goes something like this:
On the one hand, Thai folk are smart and are not duped by vote buying…
On the other hand, Thai folk are not smart enough and are duped by lese majeste-protected royalist propaganda.
Can both be true? Doesn’t it smack of convenient inconsistency?
I personally think Thai folk are smart enought to not be duped by vote buying NOR royalist propaganda.
This is my partial response to ‘an observer’ above as well as my partial re-action to Nidhi’s paper. (It’s partial because I simply have no time to write a long and complete one yet.)
‘an observer’: Thanks a lot! At last I’m starting to get some idea of the scope & content of the conference. Unfortunately I was unable to attend and , like many in my position, I’m waiting for a reasonable discussion to begin.
I’d really appreciate it if SOMEONE would answer the following question: Is there a published colloquium from the conference? If so, will it be made available at an affordable price to non-attendees? If not, will someone please scan it & put it onto the net, even on a torrent site, if necessary.
Yes, yes: it is early days, I know. And many of the international attendees are probably still away from home. But this was obviously a rather ground-breaking conference, hence my impatience.
Ummm, ‘an observer’: Why the 5555 after ‘lese majeste’?
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Thai studies conference underway
‘The king has done so much for the country!’
I couldn’t agree more. I knew nothing of the king before I came to Thailand. Since then I have read the bangkok Post and Nation newspapers everyday and not once have I ever come across any criticism of a royally funded project. You have to be amazed at the planning and attention to detail that surely goes into theses schemes. Ask yourself this: How many western agencies can boast initiatives which neither harm the environment not have any human costs?
Thai studies conference underway
Teth – I do understand your outrage at discovering that the Thai royals may not be the angels you were brought up to believe they were, but I think you’re being rather naive if you believe that one man could possibly have Made Everything All Right in the last 60 years & changed Thailand from being ‘a third world country,’ as you state, into a marvelously functioning developed one. How do you know to what degree he gave ‘his willing cooperation with disgusting tyrants like Sarit, Thanom, Praphas, and Narong or generals like Prem, Suchinda, and now Sonthi’? We’re talking about The Real World here, in fact the S.E.Asian Real World: complex, super-energized Machiavellian politics, where everyone has political rabies, where there are mega-fortunes to be made or lost under the table, and where ordinary people don’t matter a damn…
I’m not a Royalist, by the way. I’m not an anti-Royalist either. I don’t have to be – I’m not Thai, so it’s not my struggle. And it’s not a football match, either. I think that to be vigorously barracking for either team is to be missing the point & misapplying energy. It’s escapist.
What Thailand needs more than anything is more people with basic ethics, and more people who will stand up and support its social critics and those who are working at the grassroots level to make its institutions more decent and more effective. People like Pasuk, for example, who does honest and constructive research into abuses of various parts of the economy, should be valued. Is she? Not much, not enough. I’ve heard other academics revile her, stupidly really (no counter-argument. But that seems to be quite normal in Thai academia. Not many who could argue their way out of a 2nd-hand Chinese condom. “Not a friend of Thailand,’ they shriek.) When I hear people condemning people like her as socially divisive or deviant, I can’t help wondering what they’re hiding. And what about Sulak? Well, he is rather apt to point the finger very bluntly and publicly, and he does scare a lot of people with his preaching of celibacy – in a country where sex of all kinds is traditionally one of the main industries, and a major export commodity – but his basic message is undeniably fair and good: clean up the sangha and the society by living according to the simple principles of Buddhism. In other words, cut all the stupid “Do you like Thai culture” bullshit and ‘walk the talk.’ There are others like them, and their message is always ultimately about taking personal responsibility. The countries in the world that are enjoying a measure of democracy and freedom all had to fight for it (they were killed, tortured, reviled), and their people have to continue to do so, and many who stand up as whistle-blowers today suffer for it.
When there is a freer press, a more independent and honest judiciary, sangha, and public sector, when the military and police force can be distinguished from the criminal classes, that will be a time when ordinary people have become so sick of the corruption and brutality that they will refuse to participate in it.
I was speaking to one of my friends, who has lived here about 20 years, recently about the repugnance & hypocrisy of Thai social body-language. Earlier that day I had, in a fit of frustration, yelled ‘Get up, get up!’ to some students who had knelt beside my desk. Then, of course, I had to spend 20 minutes apologizing & explaining that in my culture, such an act symbolizes a completely unacceptable social gulf, & I would not want to teach them if I saw them as inferior, I don’t & I’m dying for my students to celebrate their intelligence, individuality, etc. My friend said, ‘Yeah, they look like whipped dogs when they waih some hi-so creep. How can you respect that?’
Time for academic frankness
Frankly, Frank Lee – I don’t know the details about your case, but I’m interested. Is there somewhere I can read about it?
Thai studies conference underway
You all (Thai and foreigners posting here) fail to properly grasp the King’s context and who his intended audience is.
When the King speaks, his audience is mostly his loyal followers, which basically means the whole population of Thailand.
But simplified for the poor and those who have not had a chance of formal education.
When they suffered due to an economic collapse the magnitude of 1997, they looked to the King for advice. The advice was delivered in the simplest form possible for that intended audience.
The king framed his ideas under sufficiency theory in an attempt to bring comfort to those who were financially distressed and feared losing their well-being. He promised them that if they followed his simple advice, which meant falling back on the family unit and on finding modest earnings enough to feed oneself, or the family, they could survive the downturn and hopefully come thought the downturn intact.
Good advice it was.
Don’t read too much into it. Just take it at face value.
Monarchy, monarchy, monarchy
To get a bit of a historical background with regards to the dicusssion of the monarchy, I found the material provided by Scot Barmé (2002) “Woman, Man, Bangkok” very interesting, especially pages 97ff.
Thai studies conference underway
Teth: Ask yourself why do you insist on playing the man and not the ball.
Because you’ve thrown the ball out of the court already.
If only you’d listen or go around searching for evidence that disagrees with your propaganda which is well discussed here before whether between me and Jeru or nganadeeleg or anyone else. In fact, I’ve thrown you a few balls but (such as the 6 Oct issue) but will I have to repeat myself ten times before you decide to listen to whatever it is that goes against your barbershop views? Again, you bring up nothing but hypocrisy.
So I suggest you ask yourself why do you insist on playing the man and not the ball.
Thai studies conference underway
Frank Lee
From my reading of the discussion, Teth is putting up strong arguments and you are failing to respond.
Thai studies conference underway
nganadeeleg, depends what type of person you are; an empiricist or someone who makes an assumption based on other peoples generalisations.
Monarchy, monarchy, monarchy
I thought we’re already competing with Bhutan on the happiness index 🙂
Putting snails to good use
Amusing little double act there, I’d say!
Thai studies conference underway
Ngarn #20…sure its possible, but I don’t think its the case. I wouldn’t sell my vote for a few hundred baht, but if someone offerred me a million baht…well, I might. I think its a rational decision making process. No duping is involved (except, ironically, maybe the vote buyer is the one who is duped since the vote seller might still tick a different box to the one he’s supposed to).
As to royalist propaganda, sure there is asymmetry of positive vs negative information due to Lese Majeste, but it just seems to me that the crucial information still seem to get through to enough people anyway. Just ask Vachiralongkorn if he thinks LM has been effective.
I also think that mania for Bhumipol (which seems to have reached hysterical levels only over the past few years) is skin deep. Scratch the surface a little and you might find most people’s regard for, and expectation of, the King is no different to their regard for and expectation of an ‘amulet’. They view this king as a ‘good’ lord, but a lord nevertheless, and superstitiuously lords might protect and give them luck, but lords aren’t interested in concepts like ‘social equality’, ‘equality under the law’, or ‘fair distribution of wealth’.
Thai studies conference underway
Taxi Driver: You have raised a good point, but is it also possible that many Thai folk (the majority?) are duped by BOTH ?
Putting snails to good use
thanks mr wang xiao
for he job well done i am highly interested in you product and i will like to buy snail from you at bulk quantity so tell me what and what to do i mean per kilogram and your method of payment .
regards.
mrs erica
uk
Tel…. +447031860561
+447024038088
Monarchy, monarchy, monarchy
I’ve just read the interview former ITV journalist Jom Phetpradap conducted with Thaksin at the end of last year, which apparently was due to be broadcast on TITV but never made it [I found the transcript at Prachatai – http://www.prachatai.com/webboard/topic.php?id=680050%5D
As always Thaksin appears to show great loyalty to the throne, but then there is this great throwaway line at the end of the interview, which surely must have been no accident:
…р╕Вр╕нр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 23 р╕Шр╕▒р╕Щр╕зр╕▓р╕Др╕б р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕гр╕┤р╣Ир╕бр╕Хр╣Йр╕Щр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Ыр╕гр╕нр╕Зр╕Фр╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕Цр╕нр╕░ р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕бр╕▓р╕Щр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╕Юр╕╣р╕Фр╕Щр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╕Фр╕▓р╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╕р╕Бр╕зр╕▒р╕Щ р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╕нр╕╖р╣Ир╕Щр╕лр╕▒р╕зр╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕░р╣Ар╕вр╕▓р╕░ р╣Ар╕Вр╕▓р╣Вр╕Бр╕вр╣Ар╕нр╕▓р╣Вр╕Бр╕вр╣Ар╕нр╕▓ р╣Ар╕ир╕гр╕йр╕Рр╕Бр╕┤р╕Ир╣Ар╕Вр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╕Цр╕╢р╕Зр╣Др╕лр╕Щр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕гр╕╣р╣Й р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Ар╕Щр╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕Щр╕░ 60 р╕Ыр╕╡р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Бр╕Вр╣Ир╕Зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Нр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ыр╕╕р╣Ир╕Щ р╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з 40 р╕Ыр╕╡р╕Хр╣Ир╕нр╕бр╕▓ р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Бр╕Вр╣Ир╕Зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╣Др╕Хр╣Йр╕лр╕зр╕▒р╕Щ р╕ор╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕З р╕кр╕┤р╕Зр╕Др╣Вр╕Ыр╕гр╣М р╣Бр╕ер╕░ 20 р╕Ыр╕╡р╕Хр╣Ир╕нр╕бр╕▓ р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Бр╕Вр╣Ир╕Зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕бр╕▓р╣Ар╕ер╣Ар╕Лр╕╡р╕в р╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Бр╕Вр╣Ир╕Зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ъ р╣Ар╕зр╕╡р╕вр╕Фр╕Щр╕▓р╕б р╕Щр╕░ р╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Ир╕░р╕Цр╕нр╕вр╣Др╕Ыр╣Бр╕Вр╣Ир╕Зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕ер╕▓р╕з р╣Ар╕Вр╕бр╕г р╕Юр╕бр╣Ир╕▓ р╕Бр╣Зр╕ер╕нр╕Зр╕Фр╕╣…
That’s a rather different retelling of the history of the last 60 years to the one we’re used to!
Thai studies conference underway
Land of Smirks and Rich Jerks – We Love You:
Can anyone remember Thaksin ever introducing a policy that wasn’t botched?
Teth: Ask yourself why do you insist on playing the man and not the ball.
FYI: Yes I was a fairly unabashed admirer of the king – about a DOZEN (12) years ago, but “I was so much older then, I’m younger than that now”.
“What’s all the fuss about?”
Much ado about nothing to my viewpoint.
I don’t even understand the Thai governement took time to censor this book…
Thai studies conference open forum
yKhamtham, hrk – been at the conference, attended panels – why not put together posts on the non-monarchy panels that you observed?
Thai studies conference underway
Reading the above posts and other discussions on New Mandala over the past year+, I notice an constant underlying premise. It goes something like this:
On the one hand, Thai folk are smart and are not duped by vote buying…
On the other hand, Thai folk are not smart enough and are duped by lese majeste-protected royalist propaganda.
Can both be true? Doesn’t it smack of convenient inconsistency?
I personally think Thai folk are smart enought to not be duped by vote buying NOR royalist propaganda.
Thai studies conference open forum
http://www.sameskybooks.org/board/index.php?showtopic=5270
This is my partial response to ‘an observer’ above as well as my partial re-action to Nidhi’s paper. (It’s partial because I simply have no time to write a long and complete one yet.)
Sorry too, in Thai only.
Thai studies conference open forum
‘an observer’: Thanks a lot! At last I’m starting to get some idea of the scope & content of the conference. Unfortunately I was unable to attend and , like many in my position, I’m waiting for a reasonable discussion to begin.
I’d really appreciate it if SOMEONE would answer the following question: Is there a published colloquium from the conference? If so, will it be made available at an affordable price to non-attendees? If not, will someone please scan it & put it onto the net, even on a torrent site, if necessary.
Yes, yes: it is early days, I know. And many of the international attendees are probably still away from home. But this was obviously a rather ground-breaking conference, hence my impatience.
Ummm, ‘an observer’: Why the 5555 after ‘lese majeste’?