If you are going to be spreading around bags of cash it is not much of an investment to spend it where most of the people will vote for you anyway. Does it really matter if the PPP gets 75% of the vote instead of 68% in individual districts? The intense interest in this campaign, especially in the North and Northeast, also made the turnout predictable even if a few percentage points could be said to be attributable to bags of money from Hong Kong. Perhaps people who can afford to dole out bags of money can reasonably be expected to put it where it can more likely influence the outcome of individual contests, such as in and around Bangkok.
The PPP won handily despite a fifteen-month propaganda campaign against them. Whatever one may say about the tactics that Thaksin uses and has used in the past, it is hard to imagine them to be any worse than those of people who rode into office on the back of a Tank, and who have since done all the things they accuse Thaksin of doing to keep themselves there. We speak of rural-urban/middle/lower classes divisions but the overriding consideration here is that the the PPP won the election because the Thai People simply voted against the people who replaced the TRT. We may call the electorate dumb or uneducated or un-sophisticated, but can one honestly say that the anti-TRT crowd earned the privilege of Governing, and that a better informed electorate would have made a different choice than this one did?
Now, now, Colonel, no need to emphasize your upper class connections nor flaunt the credibility of your educated yet unenlightened sources. From your first comment regarding this matter you seem very well convinced, Colonel, and dare I say quite uncritical and unaware of the dubious quality of your “hearsay”.
All they have to do was behave . . . but they won’t. Thaksin’s money men were all over Esan country . . . bags of cash directly from Hongkong.
Where was the mention of “hearsay” or do you operate just like the EC: without actual evidence and without proper regard for procedural fairness. Don’t be so quick in your about-face now, you might knock a few champagne glasses over. But maybe that might teach you to bring actual evidence to the discussion table.
Ian, I explicitly state that there is a need for self-proclaimed liberals to stick to their principles and that applies to my “ideal” charismatic leader: a character who embodies the “our” principles. Currently the Thai left is merely a mismatch of academics and armchair liberals except for maybe Giles, but even he has more of a tendency to split opinion with radical views rather than forge solidarity.
Ladybody, I apologize if I came off as accusing. I was merely pointing out the fact that minority White government was also far from ideal and that we should not consider the situation in Zimbabwe on an either/or basis.
The Fa Dio Kan website has just been shut down (last night), apparently after its internet service provider closed its host server on the grounds that the webboard contained material that was in violation of lese majeste (according to the report on Prachatai – http://www.prachatai.com/05web/th/home/10786). Yesterday there was a very interesting discussion of the death of the king’s brother in 1946. I guess that was the catalyst.
I am not excusing the white government’s atrocities – where does that come in to my post.
Your ways of establishing a liberal democracy are probably the best we can come up with but too many times it is too difficult to achieve because of ethno tension populism when democracy happens. usually the downtrodden rise up against an elite through a popular demagogue and mayhem occurs. Zimbabwe,Iraq & Indonesia are 3 examples.I would argue that democracy is not always the best solution.
As for thailand, a popular demagogue had used the downtrodden (although same ethnicity) to gain power. He was not encouraging democratic practices and the elite used that to get back in. However the King and his cronies will not encourage democracy. So where does that leave Thailand. I agree with you:
“to drag up the “Thongchai affair”” – sounds like you feel suitably ashamed for your role in that tawdry saga.
But enough bitchiness ( I am a ladyboy) and back to the argument.
– Are not Thongchai’s pseudo royalism and illogicality ,Andrew’s circumspection and your failure to reveal your name all due to being suitably scared of naming “the elephant in the room” i.e. youy face arrest , job loss, social isolation etc? But you and they are all attacking the monarchy in ways that get around these threats. Hence your criticism is unjust because of its hypocritical aspect and also that their line of attack is the best way to stop the elephant without being squashed.
Doesn’t this argument mean that transparency is key? If so then a charismatic leader is probably not the answer. We have already seen what charisma can do to embolden the elites, rather than to humble them.
News Flash from James Klein in Iowa: “With 62% of Democrat caucus voters voting against him, Barack Obama has emerged as the clear loser in the Iowa primary.”
Ladyboy and David W, you both bring up interesting points about possible methods of progress into a proper liberal democracy. That Mugabe’s populism has ruined Zimbabwe should not make up forget the ills and injustice of a minority White government.
In my opinion, the best way to proceed forward is a way that abides by the liberal democratic principles with which we hope to achieve, changing by example. Otherwise we would be guilty of endorsing the very things we despise: authoritarian “democrats”, despotic militaries, and ancient monarchies.
In an ideal world, there should be a (passionate) campaign to educate and change the thoughts and minds of the people: an attitude change in the media and a change in the classroom.
If the bureaucratic-minded education system is changed to promote critical thinking, academic curiosity, freedom of speech, and a well-read populace, then a new generation of Thais will be geared towards liberal democracy.
If the general attitude of the press can be changed to one that demands responsibility from political leaders impartially, are not afraid (and are free) to expose hypocrisy and corruption, I believe that governance in Thailand would improve dramatically as a result.
Could these two things, as fantastic as they sound, ever happen? That’s why I’m hedging my bets for economic enfranchisement gradually bringing these things. Currently, Thai liberals are devoid of a charismatic, passionate leader who can inspire such change . . . if only another Pridi were in today’s Thailand.
Unfortunately, I know basically nothing about African political history, so I can’t comment on the comparison in any informed way. But I would say that historically no democratic regime has been able to avoid corruption, nepotism, patronage networks, machine politics, etc, in general, and particularly at the early stages of a transition. It would be foolish to imagine Thailand could be any different. The trick is to establish, deepen and expand the rule of law, constitutional checks and balances, a political party system and a strong civil society that can keep political parties and the state bureaucracy in check – amongst a range of other political developments. Lots of democratic transitions fail, stall or sputter out. Democratization projects aren’t like self-directing or perpetual motion machines after all.
BP, this piece on the referendum confirms what Jim is politically up to, in fact, it is worse than his text on the election. I wonder why he seem to have become such a hawkish apologist for the coup complex.
Different? I criticized both didn’t I? But if you want to drag up the “Thongchai affair”: it had nothing to do with naming “the elephant in the room” but his argumentation, which I viewed as being either royalist or illogical. Neither apply to Andrew’s interview.
(BangkokPost.com) – About 20,000 residents of Buri Ram province demonstrated on Friday against the Election Commission (EC)’s decision to disqualify three winning candidates from People Power party (PPP).
The protesters gathered in front of the provincial election office after the EC red-carded all of the winning candidates from the pro-Thaksin party from constituency 1.
The three are found guilty of vote-buying in the run-up to the Dec 23 general election.
According to deputy commander of Buri Ram Provincial Police, Wichai Sangprapai, the protesters want an explanation from the EC.
About 200 police officers are deployed to guard the area. But the situation is under control so far.
20,000 people? That’s a lot. Will have needed substantial mobilization and “gasoline money.”
Republican,
You said: “Good job Andrew. I realize how difficult it is to get a message across in the media that is not too complicated in just a few sound bytes.”
A bit different to your reaction to Thongchai’s failure to name the elephant in the room. Andrew is not my mate so could I say to Andrew that he’s just another of the same group of academics who is too weak to call a spade a spade.
David W
Wasn’t Mugabe elected and then did he not use populism against the white elites to maintain power? This example of democratically elected corruption being left to fester has not worked to produce a stable democracy.
Frothy at the mouth am I . . . but if you review our exchange Historicus I have not raised my voice in anger one bit nor directed even a slug of spit that you’d quickly mistake for froth.
OK Historicus I will concede that you tirelessly trekked the Northeast during the elections and was chummy with Puea Pandit candidates here and there and all you got was hearsay (2nd hand information) that another party, other than PPP, was doing the money dumping. Hearsay, yes?
Well my hearsay was not from the Esan country sourced but from cocktails here and dinners there . . . and whispers (but hearsay information same as yours), that many sedentary almost retired police generals were reactivated to be Thaksin’s money bag men for the elections.
Historicus: Thanks for the additional info on the Asia Foundation. I have listened to Jim Klein a number of times, and he came across as being rather evasive. So, I wondered what had prompted him “sich so weit aus dem Fenster zu lehnen,” even in ‘printed’ form.
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Thailand’s coup by stealth
If you are going to be spreading around bags of cash it is not much of an investment to spend it where most of the people will vote for you anyway. Does it really matter if the PPP gets 75% of the vote instead of 68% in individual districts? The intense interest in this campaign, especially in the North and Northeast, also made the turnout predictable even if a few percentage points could be said to be attributable to bags of money from Hong Kong. Perhaps people who can afford to dole out bags of money can reasonably be expected to put it where it can more likely influence the outcome of individual contests, such as in and around Bangkok.
The PPP won handily despite a fifteen-month propaganda campaign against them. Whatever one may say about the tactics that Thaksin uses and has used in the past, it is hard to imagine them to be any worse than those of people who rode into office on the back of a Tank, and who have since done all the things they accuse Thaksin of doing to keep themselves there. We speak of rural-urban/middle/lower classes divisions but the overriding consideration here is that the the PPP won the election because the Thai People simply voted against the people who replaced the TRT. We may call the electorate dumb or uneducated or un-sophisticated, but can one honestly say that the anti-TRT crowd earned the privilege of Governing, and that a better informed electorate would have made a different choice than this one did?
Thailand’s coup by stealth
Now, now, Colonel, no need to emphasize your upper class connections nor flaunt the credibility of your educated yet unenlightened sources. From your first comment regarding this matter you seem very well convinced, Colonel, and dare I say quite uncritical and unaware of the dubious quality of your “hearsay”.
Where was the mention of “hearsay” or do you operate just like the EC: without actual evidence and without proper regard for procedural fairness. Don’t be so quick in your about-face now, you might knock a few champagne glasses over. But maybe that might teach you to bring actual evidence to the discussion table.
The King Never Smiles?
Ian, I explicitly state that there is a need for self-proclaimed liberals to stick to their principles and that applies to my “ideal” charismatic leader: a character who embodies the “our” principles. Currently the Thai left is merely a mismatch of academics and armchair liberals except for maybe Giles, but even he has more of a tendency to split opinion with radical views rather than forge solidarity.
Ladybody, I apologize if I came off as accusing. I was merely pointing out the fact that minority White government was also far from ideal and that we should not consider the situation in Zimbabwe on an either/or basis.
The King Never Smiles?
Just received this update on the closure of Fa Dio Kan in an email circulated from the editor:
р╣Ар╕гр╕╡р╕вр╕Щр╕Чр╕╕р╕Бр╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щ
р╕Хр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Др╕╖р╕Щ (р╣Ф р╕бр╕Бр╕гр╕▓р╕Др╕бр╣Тр╣Хр╣Хр╣Р) р╣Ар╕зр╣Зр╕Ър╣Др╕Лр╕Хр╣Мр╕Яр╣Йр╕▓р╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щwww.sameskybooks.org*
р╕Цр╕╣р╕Бр╣Др╕нр╕Лр╕╡р╕Чр╕╡р╕кр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╕Ыр╕┤р╕Фр╣Вр╕Фр╕вр╕нр╣Йр╕▓р╕Зр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕бр╕╡р╣Ар╕Щр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕лр╕▓р╕Чр╕╡р╣И”р╕лр╕бр╕┤р╣Ир╕Щр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕гр╕бр╣Ар╕Фр╕Кр╕▓р╕Щр╕╕р╕ар╕▓р╕Ю”
р╣Вр╕Фр╕вр╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╕Щр╕╡р╣Й
р╣С. р╣Др╕нр╕Лр╕╡р╕Чр╕╡р╣Бр╕Ир╣Йр╕Зр╣Др╕Ыр╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╣Вр╕ор╕кр╕Хр╕┤р╣Йр╕Зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Яр╣Йр╕▓р╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Гр╕Кр╣Йр╕Ър╕гр╕┤р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕бр╕╡р╣Ар╕зр╣Зр╕Ър╣Др╕Лр╕Хр╣Мр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕лр╕бр╕┤р╣Ир╕Щр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕гр╕бр╣Ар╕Фр╕Кр╕▓р╕Щр╕╕р╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╕бр╕▓р╣Ар╕Кр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ър╕гр╕┤р╕Бр╕▓р╕г
р╣Т. р╣Др╕нр╕Лр╕╡р╕Чр╕╡р╕Ыр╕┤р╕Фр╕Ър╕гр╕┤р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Вр╕нр╕кр╕Хр╕┤р╣Йр╕Зр╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╕Бр╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕зр╕Юр╕гр╣Йр╕нр╕бр╕вр╕╖р╣Ир╕Щр╣Ар╕Зр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Щр╣Др╕Вр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕вр╕Бр╣Ар╕ер╕┤р╕Бр╕Ър╕гр╕┤р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕зр╣Зр╕Ър╣Др╕Лр╕Хр╣Мр╕Яр╣Йр╕▓р╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щ
р╣У. р╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╣Вр╕ор╕кр╕Хр╕┤р╣Йр╕Зр╕вр╕Бр╣Ар╕ер╕┤р╕Бр╕Ър╕гр╕┤р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕зр╣Зр╕Ър╣Др╕Лр╕Хр╣Мр╕Яр╣Йр╕▓р╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щ
р╣Гр╕Щр╕Бр╕гр╕Ур╕╡р╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╣Др╕нр╕Лр╕╡р╕Чр╕╡р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╣Гр╕Кр╣Йр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ир╕кр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╕Ыр╕┤р╕Фр╕бр╕▓р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕зр╣Зр╕Ър╣Др╕Лр╕Хр╣Мр╕Яр╣Йр╕▓р╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Вр╕Фр╕вр╕Хр╕гр╕Зр╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕Бр╕Фр╕Фр╕▒р╕Щр╣Др╕Ыр╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╕Ър╕гр╕┤р╕йр╕▒р╕Чр╣Ар╕нр╕Бр╕Кр╕Щр╕нр╕╡р╕Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕нр╕лр╕Щр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Бр╕Ир╣Йр╕Зр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╣Ар╕гр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╕лр╕бр╕┤р╣Ир╕Щр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕гр╕бр╣Ар╕Фр╕Кр╕▓р╕Щр╕╕р╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╣Бр╕Бр╣Ир╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╣Ар╕Бр╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕зр╕Вр╣Йр╕нр╕З (р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕нр╕Щр╕▓р╕Др╕Хр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Бр╕Щр╣И) р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕Лр╣Зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Лр╕нр╕гр╣Мр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Бр╕Щр╕Ър╣Ар╕Щр╕╡р╕вр╕Щр╕Бр╕зр╣Ир╕▓
р╕Бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕Хр╕╖р╕нр╕Щр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╣Др╕нр╕Лр╕╡р╕Чр╕╡р╕бр╕╡р╕Ър╣Йр╕▓р╕Зр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕ер╕Ър╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Ър╕▓р╕Зр╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕Чр╕╣р╣Йр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Яр╣Йр╕▓р╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╕Бр╣Зр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕гр╣Ир╕зр╕бр╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕бр╕▓р╣Вр╕Фр╕вр╕Хр╕ер╕нр╕Ф
р╕Шр╕Щр╕▓р╕Юр╕е р╕нр╕┤р╣Лр╕зр╕кр╕Бр╕╕р╕е
The King Never Smiles?
The Fa Dio Kan website has just been shut down (last night), apparently after its internet service provider closed its host server on the grounds that the webboard contained material that was in violation of lese majeste (according to the report on Prachatai – http://www.prachatai.com/05web/th/home/10786). Yesterday there was a very interesting discussion of the death of the king’s brother in 1946. I guess that was the catalyst.
The King Never Smiles?
Teth. My last point is I agree with you :
That’s why I’m hedging my bets for economic enfranchisement gradually bringing these things.
The King Never Smiles?
Teth,
I am not excusing the white government’s atrocities – where does that come in to my post.
Your ways of establishing a liberal democracy are probably the best we can come up with but too many times it is too difficult to achieve because of ethno tension populism when democracy happens. usually the downtrodden rise up against an elite through a popular demagogue and mayhem occurs. Zimbabwe,Iraq & Indonesia are 3 examples.I would argue that democracy is not always the best solution.
As for thailand, a popular demagogue had used the downtrodden (although same ethnicity) to gain power. He was not encouraging democratic practices and the elite used that to get back in. However the King and his cronies will not encourage democracy. So where does that leave Thailand. I agree with you:
New Mandala on the airwaves
Republican,
“to drag up the “Thongchai affair”” – sounds like you feel suitably ashamed for your role in that tawdry saga.
But enough bitchiness ( I am a ladyboy) and back to the argument.
– Are not Thongchai’s pseudo royalism and illogicality ,Andrew’s circumspection and your failure to reveal your name all due to being suitably scared of naming “the elephant in the room” i.e. youy face arrest , job loss, social isolation etc? But you and they are all attacking the monarchy in ways that get around these threats. Hence your criticism is unjust because of its hypocritical aspect and also that their line of attack is the best way to stop the elephant without being squashed.
Sorry If i am just going over old ground.
The King Never Smiles?
Teth #258,
Doesn’t this argument mean that transparency is key? If so then a charismatic leader is probably not the answer. We have already seen what charisma can do to embolden the elites, rather than to humble them.
Ian
Mandate to rule?
News Flash from James Klein in Iowa: “With 62% of Democrat caucus voters voting against him, Barack Obama has emerged as the clear loser in the Iowa primary.”
The King Never Smiles?
Ladyboy and David W, you both bring up interesting points about possible methods of progress into a proper liberal democracy. That Mugabe’s populism has ruined Zimbabwe should not make up forget the ills and injustice of a minority White government.
In my opinion, the best way to proceed forward is a way that abides by the liberal democratic principles with which we hope to achieve, changing by example. Otherwise we would be guilty of endorsing the very things we despise: authoritarian “democrats”, despotic militaries, and ancient monarchies.
In an ideal world, there should be a (passionate) campaign to educate and change the thoughts and minds of the people: an attitude change in the media and a change in the classroom.
If the bureaucratic-minded education system is changed to promote critical thinking, academic curiosity, freedom of speech, and a well-read populace, then a new generation of Thais will be geared towards liberal democracy.
If the general attitude of the press can be changed to one that demands responsibility from political leaders impartially, are not afraid (and are free) to expose hypocrisy and corruption, I believe that governance in Thailand would improve dramatically as a result.
Could these two things, as fantastic as they sound, ever happen? That’s why I’m hedging my bets for economic enfranchisement gradually bringing these things. Currently, Thai liberals are devoid of a charismatic, passionate leader who can inspire such change . . . if only another Pridi were in today’s Thailand.
The King Never Smiles?
Ladyboy,
Unfortunately, I know basically nothing about African political history, so I can’t comment on the comparison in any informed way. But I would say that historically no democratic regime has been able to avoid corruption, nepotism, patronage networks, machine politics, etc, in general, and particularly at the early stages of a transition. It would be foolish to imagine Thailand could be any different. The trick is to establish, deepen and expand the rule of law, constitutional checks and balances, a political party system and a strong civil society that can keep political parties and the state bureaucracy in check – amongst a range of other political developments. Lots of democratic transitions fail, stall or sputter out. Democratization projects aren’t like self-directing or perpetual motion machines after all.
Mandate to rule?
BP, this piece on the referendum confirms what Jim is politically up to, in fact, it is worse than his text on the election. I wonder why he seem to have become such a hawkish apologist for the coup complex.
New Mandala on the airwaves
Different? I criticized both didn’t I? But if you want to drag up the “Thongchai affair”: it had nothing to do with naming “the elephant in the room” but his argumentation, which I viewed as being either royalist or illogical. Neither apply to Andrew’s interview.
Mandate to rule?
His views on the Constitution referendum are also interesting.
My views on the piece are here.
Mandate to rule?
(BangkokPost.com) – About 20,000 residents of Buri Ram province demonstrated on Friday against the Election Commission (EC)’s decision to disqualify three winning candidates from People Power party (PPP).
The protesters gathered in front of the provincial election office after the EC red-carded all of the winning candidates from the pro-Thaksin party from constituency 1.
The three are found guilty of vote-buying in the run-up to the Dec 23 general election.
According to deputy commander of Buri Ram Provincial Police, Wichai Sangprapai, the protesters want an explanation from the EC.
About 200 police officers are deployed to guard the area. But the situation is under control so far.
20,000 people? That’s a lot. Will have needed substantial mobilization and “gasoline money.”
New Mandala on the airwaves
Republican,
You said: “Good job Andrew. I realize how difficult it is to get a message across in the media that is not too complicated in just a few sound bytes.”
A bit different to your reaction to Thongchai’s failure to name the elephant in the room. Andrew is not my mate so could I say to Andrew that he’s just another of the same group of academics who is too weak to call a spade a spade.
The King Never Smiles?
David W
Wasn’t Mugabe elected and then did he not use populism against the white elites to maintain power? This example of democratically elected corruption being left to fester has not worked to produce a stable democracy.
Thailand’s coup by stealth
Frothy at the mouth am I . . . but if you review our exchange Historicus I have not raised my voice in anger one bit nor directed even a slug of spit that you’d quickly mistake for froth.
OK Historicus I will concede that you tirelessly trekked the Northeast during the elections and was chummy with Puea Pandit candidates here and there and all you got was hearsay (2nd hand information) that another party, other than PPP, was doing the money dumping. Hearsay, yes?
Well my hearsay was not from the Esan country sourced but from cocktails here and dinners there . . . and whispers (but hearsay information same as yours), that many sedentary almost retired police generals were reactivated to be Thaksin’s money bag men for the elections.
Now is your hearsay as good as mine?
Mandate to rule?
Historicus: Thanks for the additional info on the Asia Foundation. I have listened to Jim Klein a number of times, and he came across as being rather evasive. So, I wondered what had prompted him “sich so weit aus dem Fenster zu lehnen,” even in ‘printed’ form.