I don’t think reference to Thailand’s “highest court” (Vichai 9.1.1.1) has any credibility knowing what we now know of the Thai judiciary! This was a political program of mischief initiated at the highest levels. Thaksin did not “manipulate” laws. These were already in place; he just worked with them. In regard to Thaksin, the use of persisting negative propaganda against him had an ulterior purpose which we need to understand otherwise we cannot move beyond this nonsense. Time to move to facts, to truth.
Let me hazard a guess. Dr Zaw Myint Maung from Mandalay – elected NLD member of parliament from Amarapura in 1990, arrested and jailed in 1991 for 18 years, and re-elected from Kyaukpadaung on 8 November, if you read between the lines, or rather the names, into this report by The Irrawaddy on the second meeting between ASSK and Min Aung Hlaing.
The two-hour sit-down in the capital Naypyidaw came more than a month after the two leaders first met on Dec. 2.
Also present for Monday’s meeting were Min Aung Hlaing’s deputy Snr-Gen Soe Win and other high-ranking generals, as well as NLD central committee members Win Htein, Win Myint and Zaw Myint Maung, and Suu Kyi’s personal physician Dr. Tin Myo Win, the statement said.
A second meeting between the two had been tipped in recent weeks….. Unlike Monday’s gathering, their first encounter was a private one-on-one.
Unless the man assented to suspending Article 59(f) that is.
1. One of the reasons why islamization took place in Malaysia is that there is not concept of what is Malay-culture within modernity. The views of Malay culture are still either linked to a Kampung life-style or a feudal royal life-style. Especially with the NEP and the emergence of an urban Malay middle class, new versions of cultural identity were searched for, and here Islam provided a solution. It is Malay and can be connected to global modernity. From a political point of view, a Malay policy can be maintained outside a racial policy, or Islam as racial policy by other means.
2. One should not forget the financial support of islamist groups by Arabian financed organisations. They had the objective to make Islam publicly visible even in no or less Islamic states, with quite some success. However, when you are more visible in the public, you will be watched and evaluated. Here the evaluation is anything but positive!
3. One central aspect of Islamism is “humiliation”. This works well for a while as a means to create the community of the humiliated who use Islam for their empowerment and as legitimation for struggle and subjugation of others. However, in the long run, to describe oneself as always humiliated by others (the West, Chinese, etc.) does not really provide a sound base for identity. Furthermore, it does not really fit into the self-description of Malaysia as a rising, modernising state.
Will Islamisation continue? I doubt it. In fact, the “half-life” of Islamism is already over. It did not deliver the goods as expected (no corruption, a better life, harmony etc.), and instead is ever more under pressure. Have the Malay understood that an Islamic state has to dissolve all the special rights of the Malay? That a few Malay have moved to IS is seen as a quite dangerous development by the government. An Islamization policy would lead to isolation of Malaysia within the region and internationally, which will have rather negative repercussions on the economy. So far, Malaysia could afford to create for itself problems like Islamisation, but the current economic development (f.e. the falling oil price) makes this more difficult.
I do agree fully with the question, what new ideology will substitute Islam. Perhaps this lack of an alternative at present allows for the continuity of an already outdated ideology.
I agree with regards to national business and enterprises and small or mid-scale international investment. However, large multi-national players do not have to be connected to the national patronage system, although it might be useful. Not the least because quite often the investment of one company is connected to investment of another global player, they have the power to presure the elites not the least by leaving Thailand and moving to some other country. A question is whether these do care about the political and legal state situation in the country, or simply don’t care.
Also The Thai courts sequestered Thaksin’s bank accounts — some Baht 78 billion in all due to that sordid Shin-Temasek Thaksin shenanigans. RNEngland is being silly as usual to think the courts seized Thaksin’s stocks/shares in Shin-Temasek.
Whether or not The Crown Property acquired Temasek shares, I have no clue. But if indeed they did, the Thai courts had nothing to do it. Just silly England making slanderous preposterous comments, England in true form deformed. Straight arms-length deal based on market values, that’s how these transactions are done with Singapore’s Temasek.
That’s the looting rampage? Thaksin was found manipulating policy, by the highest court of Thailand, to enrich to make sure Shin Corporation shares levitate …. then unloaded his shares therefrom by first, manipulating again the laws to make sure the sale not be exposed to legal snags. And that is Thai courts ‘looting’?
There are still a lot of criminal cases awaiting Thaksin, including Thaksin & son looting Krung Thai Bank. Now England, the looting rampage looting rampage is by Thaksin abd his abettors …. and looting extrsordinarily without equal too.
What? Please back absurd descriptions with examples: “All the masses can do in the interim is to seemingly wait and endure the social, political and economic consequences of this high-level connivance. Any uprising, should this happen, will be spontaneous in nature.”
I, personally, was living in provincial northern Thai areas less than a month ago and these folk have a lot more going for them than big city folk do in many ways. They help each other out, transportation is very simple, basic school & medical needs nearby taken care of by central government. Food is reasonably priced and can even be grown in the backyard. Public water now increasingly available obviating need for well in backyard.
Painting a picture of them as exploited masses, seething with anger ready for revolution is simply not accurate.
The corrupt Thai courts looted Temasek’s Shin Corp assets and, surprise, surprise, they fell neatly into the hands of the Crown Property Bureau. Alarms sounded all over the business world when that happened.
Just pointing out that there is nothing new in any military/royal/elite networking.
It has been going on for thousands of years and is still strong in Britain.
Thanks very much for this, Oliver. I think for some parts of the population the big hangover from this euphoric development drunkenness is already announcing itself, and will for sure increase in the near future.
Some just foolish and some are genuinely ignorant. Done by “Civilized people” you see.
Most offensive word ever invented seems to be the word “civilized” (with s or z).
And the most useful word to fool the helpless populace seems to be the word “Democracy” perhaps most successfully first used by Edward Bernays teaching that philandering idiot ex-Princeton Chief Woodrow Wilson to “Bring Democracy to Europe” meaning Versailles treaty which was like a Hitler Breeding recipe.
Current day Burma is reeling from both words!!! Fun!
Can I add arrogance and conceit to those stereotypical Westerners who think nothing of treating the Buddha image like an ornament? You won’t find Jesus in any Buddhist’s back garden.
There are a number of Burmese regulars in this forum. Each one of them would have Tayoke (Chinese- some of whom are Muslin) or Kalar (Indian- Burmese are usually not so disicriminative of Muslim or Hindu) friends or relatives or teachers. In Burma, traditionally teachers are regarded in the same vein as Buddha and you will find all these regulars have paid due respect and difference to all those regardless of race or religion.
Since the time of Burmese Kings, Chinese as well as Indian- both Hindu and Muslim has enjoyed elevated status- as citizens, merchants and King’s advisers being versed in Veda. All Burmese know of and sort of worship Nats (spirits) which are important part of the society still commanding huge festivals all over the country. Two of the 37 such Nats are Indian Muslim so much so that people would not carry pork to those occasions. And the legend has it that those two brothers are men with super-natural strength and were loyal protectors of the kings they served for long time.
All over the country there are mosques and Hindu temples as well as churches in jsut about all towns with single exception of Kyaun-pa-daung in central Burma where no mosque can be built and that is definitely because of religious discrimination.
Now, in the last tow decades, the military has the country in abject poverty and people who had the money and therefore calling the shots are either the military or their associates. Burmese military, like some around the world was borne out of independence movement and traditionally very nationalistic. And typically ignorant as the best education they get for most- definitely for the top brass is from military academy. With them dominating all spheres of lives-financial, cultural, educational- of people, people did move towards more nationalistic expressing as intolerance to others which military can and does champion.
The issue since 2011 is different altogether. There are several facets to it. Like many South-East Asian countries the trade and financial sectors have been controlled by ethnic Chinese and Indians, ironically in collusion with those Fascist espousing military top brass. Chinese dominance was such that many road and commercial signboards in traditional centre of Burmese culture, Mandalay, the last capital of Burmese kings were in Chinese just like in towns at the border controlled by Chinese supported Wa ethnic group armed forces. Towns people were not so happy about it.
Incidentally from the time of first serious massacre happens in Arakan State, all those Chinese signs disappeared.
Now this usage of the word Rohingya and industry around is is so vast it can just be shortened to say both sides were disingenuous, before, during and after many massacres where many people from both sides died. But then again such massacres are not unique to now, but had happened several time with each side being aggressor.
Definitely there is palpable drumming up and playing up of this “Genocide” and “Ethinic cleansing” and all that by a multinational and multi-organizational, multi-million dollar PR, journalistic and academic industry used to either embarrass the military government as required, not that they do not deserve it but it is misleading to the actual sentiment of majority public towards other religious groups.
It does not help to have Aung San Suu Kyi as “representative” for the country in the mind of many either. Once she is construed to be discriminating towards other religious groups, it automatically translates as if the “Saint” is so impure, there is no say for the others in the country or she must be like that because of the feeling of majority. That conclusion is also unsafe because what she may or may not fell is nothing whatsoever to do with majority public of a country she did not even lived in and the overwhelming election result is more reflective of how sick peoples are of the current crowd of bullies and her cultist status rather than considered support of her policies because it appears no one, perhaps including herself, has any idea what her policies are or even there will be one.
With each riots or killings there are many in this forum reporting how the Burmese are going to massacre all the Indians. Sadly for prophetic doomsayers that did not eventuate.
If you now walk in Rangoon, you will see most central town business district is thoroughly dominated by Indians and Chinese. And there are all ethnic groups of people, many if not most speaking Burmese with strong accent conducting business in a normal peaceful way with not a little sign of discrimination.
If you look into the news items for the last ten or so years you will find that the perception of Burmese hell bent to kill of all the Kalars and Muslim all of a sudden started from 2011.
Unless racism and discrimination are timed calendar event, it is unlikely that Burmese suddenly developed racism and murderous genocidal intent in 2011. It was specifically incited and portrayed as such from that date.
So after all the free-association anti-junta pseudo poetry and denial concerning the realities of what has recently constituted “democratic government” in Thailand, does anyone have an “idea” that might be left lying around when the crisis comes?
My interpretation of this whole business is that it is a tooth-and-nail stand of the national patronage system (network monarchy/military) in the face of growing demand for a national system based on the rule of law. Thaksin has been a kind of catalyst. Having been thrown out of the Thai national patronage system by the King’s edict, he has a better chance of protection for his capital from a fairer court system.
Capital (especially foreign capital) without political connections demands a rule of law that protects capital in general. In the present system, unconnected capital is always in danger of being wiped out in court battles with members of the national patronage system. Chinese capital with its own government connections may think it can operate more successfully in the present Thai milieu. But stark conflicts of national interest inevitably arise in that kind of relationship, as they did historically, with the need of gunboats to protect the interests of British colonial enterprises. Foreign investment that is successful for both sides demands the rule of law: that is, courts that are not part of the corrupt Thai national patronage system. The longer the military/royal dictatorship and its corrupt courts stay in power, the bleaker the outlook for foreign investment in Thailand, and for its economy in general. The local economy also suffers when companies with profitable ideas are crushed or looted in the courts by those with better political connections. People give up on commercial ideas and revert to flattery, grovelling, and bribery to advance themselves.
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The trouble with Thailand’s new democracy
I don’t think reference to Thailand’s “highest court” (Vichai 9.1.1.1) has any credibility knowing what we now know of the Thai judiciary! This was a political program of mischief initiated at the highest levels. Thaksin did not “manipulate” laws. These were already in place; he just worked with them. In regard to Thaksin, the use of persisting negative propaganda against him had an ulterior purpose which we need to understand otherwise we cannot move beyond this nonsense. Time to move to facts, to truth.
Predicting Myanmar’s next president
Let me hazard a guess. Dr Zaw Myint Maung from Mandalay – elected NLD member of parliament from Amarapura in 1990, arrested and jailed in 1991 for 18 years, and re-elected from Kyaukpadaung on 8 November, if you read between the lines, or rather the names, into this report by The Irrawaddy on the second meeting between ASSK and Min Aung Hlaing.
The two-hour sit-down in the capital Naypyidaw came more than a month after the two leaders first met on Dec. 2.
Also present for Monday’s meeting were Min Aung Hlaing’s deputy Snr-Gen Soe Win and other high-ranking generals, as well as NLD central committee members Win Htein, Win Myint and Zaw Myint Maung, and Suu Kyi’s personal physician Dr. Tin Myo Win, the statement said.
A second meeting between the two had been tipped in recent weeks….. Unlike Monday’s gathering, their first encounter was a private one-on-one.
Unless the man assented to suspending Article 59(f) that is.
The rise and rise of Muslim politics
I don’t fully agree with the assessment.
1. One of the reasons why islamization took place in Malaysia is that there is not concept of what is Malay-culture within modernity. The views of Malay culture are still either linked to a Kampung life-style or a feudal royal life-style. Especially with the NEP and the emergence of an urban Malay middle class, new versions of cultural identity were searched for, and here Islam provided a solution. It is Malay and can be connected to global modernity. From a political point of view, a Malay policy can be maintained outside a racial policy, or Islam as racial policy by other means.
2. One should not forget the financial support of islamist groups by Arabian financed organisations. They had the objective to make Islam publicly visible even in no or less Islamic states, with quite some success. However, when you are more visible in the public, you will be watched and evaluated. Here the evaluation is anything but positive!
3. One central aspect of Islamism is “humiliation”. This works well for a while as a means to create the community of the humiliated who use Islam for their empowerment and as legitimation for struggle and subjugation of others. However, in the long run, to describe oneself as always humiliated by others (the West, Chinese, etc.) does not really provide a sound base for identity. Furthermore, it does not really fit into the self-description of Malaysia as a rising, modernising state.
Will Islamisation continue? I doubt it. In fact, the “half-life” of Islamism is already over. It did not deliver the goods as expected (no corruption, a better life, harmony etc.), and instead is ever more under pressure. Have the Malay understood that an Islamic state has to dissolve all the special rights of the Malay? That a few Malay have moved to IS is seen as a quite dangerous development by the government. An Islamization policy would lead to isolation of Malaysia within the region and internationally, which will have rather negative repercussions on the economy. So far, Malaysia could afford to create for itself problems like Islamisation, but the current economic development (f.e. the falling oil price) makes this more difficult.
I do agree fully with the question, what new ideology will substitute Islam. Perhaps this lack of an alternative at present allows for the continuity of an already outdated ideology.
The trouble with Thailand’s new democracy
I agree with regards to national business and enterprises and small or mid-scale international investment. However, large multi-national players do not have to be connected to the national patronage system, although it might be useful. Not the least because quite often the investment of one company is connected to investment of another global player, they have the power to presure the elites not the least by leaving Thailand and moving to some other country. A question is whether these do care about the political and legal state situation in the country, or simply don’t care.
The trouble with Thailand’s new democracy
Also The Thai courts sequestered Thaksin’s bank accounts — some Baht 78 billion in all due to that sordid Shin-Temasek Thaksin shenanigans. RNEngland is being silly as usual to think the courts seized Thaksin’s stocks/shares in Shin-Temasek.
Whether or not The Crown Property acquired Temasek shares, I have no clue. But if indeed they did, the Thai courts had nothing to do it. Just silly England making slanderous preposterous comments, England in true form deformed. Straight arms-length deal based on market values, that’s how these transactions are done with Singapore’s Temasek.
The trouble with Thailand’s new democracy
That’s the looting rampage? Thaksin was found manipulating policy, by the highest court of Thailand, to enrich to make sure Shin Corporation shares levitate …. then unloaded his shares therefrom by first, manipulating again the laws to make sure the sale not be exposed to legal snags. And that is Thai courts ‘looting’?
There are still a lot of criminal cases awaiting Thaksin, including Thaksin & son looting Krung Thai Bank. Now England, the looting rampage looting rampage is by Thaksin abd his abettors …. and looting extrsordinarily without equal too.
The trouble with Thailand’s new democracy
What? Please back absurd descriptions with examples: “All the masses can do in the interim is to seemingly wait and endure the social, political and economic consequences of this high-level connivance. Any uprising, should this happen, will be spontaneous in nature.”
I, personally, was living in provincial northern Thai areas less than a month ago and these folk have a lot more going for them than big city folk do in many ways. They help each other out, transportation is very simple, basic school & medical needs nearby taken care of by central government. Food is reasonably priced and can even be grown in the backyard. Public water now increasingly available obviating need for well in backyard.
Painting a picture of them as exploited masses, seething with anger ready for revolution is simply not accurate.
The trouble with Thailand’s new democracy
The corrupt Thai courts looted Temasek’s Shin Corp assets and, surprise, surprise, they fell neatly into the hands of the Crown Property Bureau. Alarms sounded all over the business world when that happened.
The trouble with Thailand’s new democracy
Just pointing out that there is nothing new in any military/royal/elite networking.
It has been going on for thousands of years and is still strong in Britain.
The trouble with Thailand’s new democracy
Specifics RN England, specifics! Speciallly about the Thai courts looting rampage ….
Forty years of Lao PDR: what’s next?
[…] Forty years of Lao PDR: what’s next? – New […]
Forty years of Lao PDR: what’s next?
Thanks very much for this, Oliver. I think for some parts of the population the big hangover from this euphoric development drunkenness is already announcing itself, and will for sure increase in the near future.
The trouble with Thailand’s new democracy
What will be left behind is a lot of dead bodies which will make 2010 look like a tea party.
Southeast Asian snapshots
Some just foolish and some are genuinely ignorant. Done by “Civilized people” you see.
Most offensive word ever invented seems to be the word “civilized” (with s or z).
And the most useful word to fool the helpless populace seems to be the word “Democracy” perhaps most successfully first used by Edward Bernays teaching that philandering idiot ex-Princeton Chief Woodrow Wilson to “Bring Democracy to Europe” meaning Versailles treaty which was like a Hitler Breeding recipe.
Current day Burma is reeling from both words!!! Fun!
Southeast Asian snapshots
Can I add arrogance and conceit to those stereotypical Westerners who think nothing of treating the Buddha image like an ornament? You won’t find Jesus in any Buddhist’s back garden.
Southeast Asian snapshots
#2.1.1.1.1
There are a number of Burmese regulars in this forum. Each one of them would have Tayoke (Chinese- some of whom are Muslin) or Kalar (Indian- Burmese are usually not so disicriminative of Muslim or Hindu) friends or relatives or teachers. In Burma, traditionally teachers are regarded in the same vein as Buddha and you will find all these regulars have paid due respect and difference to all those regardless of race or religion.
Since the time of Burmese Kings, Chinese as well as Indian- both Hindu and Muslim has enjoyed elevated status- as citizens, merchants and King’s advisers being versed in Veda. All Burmese know of and sort of worship Nats (spirits) which are important part of the society still commanding huge festivals all over the country. Two of the 37 such Nats are Indian Muslim so much so that people would not carry pork to those occasions. And the legend has it that those two brothers are men with super-natural strength and were loyal protectors of the kings they served for long time.
All over the country there are mosques and Hindu temples as well as churches in jsut about all towns with single exception of Kyaun-pa-daung in central Burma where no mosque can be built and that is definitely because of religious discrimination.
Now, in the last tow decades, the military has the country in abject poverty and people who had the money and therefore calling the shots are either the military or their associates. Burmese military, like some around the world was borne out of independence movement and traditionally very nationalistic. And typically ignorant as the best education they get for most- definitely for the top brass is from military academy. With them dominating all spheres of lives-financial, cultural, educational- of people, people did move towards more nationalistic expressing as intolerance to others which military can and does champion.
The issue since 2011 is different altogether. There are several facets to it. Like many South-East Asian countries the trade and financial sectors have been controlled by ethnic Chinese and Indians, ironically in collusion with those Fascist espousing military top brass. Chinese dominance was such that many road and commercial signboards in traditional centre of Burmese culture, Mandalay, the last capital of Burmese kings were in Chinese just like in towns at the border controlled by Chinese supported Wa ethnic group armed forces. Towns people were not so happy about it.
Incidentally from the time of first serious massacre happens in Arakan State, all those Chinese signs disappeared.
Now this usage of the word Rohingya and industry around is is so vast it can just be shortened to say both sides were disingenuous, before, during and after many massacres where many people from both sides died. But then again such massacres are not unique to now, but had happened several time with each side being aggressor.
Definitely there is palpable drumming up and playing up of this “Genocide” and “Ethinic cleansing” and all that by a multinational and multi-organizational, multi-million dollar PR, journalistic and academic industry used to either embarrass the military government as required, not that they do not deserve it but it is misleading to the actual sentiment of majority public towards other religious groups.
It does not help to have Aung San Suu Kyi as “representative” for the country in the mind of many either. Once she is construed to be discriminating towards other religious groups, it automatically translates as if the “Saint” is so impure, there is no say for the others in the country or she must be like that because of the feeling of majority. That conclusion is also unsafe because what she may or may not fell is nothing whatsoever to do with majority public of a country she did not even lived in and the overwhelming election result is more reflective of how sick peoples are of the current crowd of bullies and her cultist status rather than considered support of her policies because it appears no one, perhaps including herself, has any idea what her policies are or even there will be one.
With each riots or killings there are many in this forum reporting how the Burmese are going to massacre all the Indians. Sadly for prophetic doomsayers that did not eventuate.
If you now walk in Rangoon, you will see most central town business district is thoroughly dominated by Indians and Chinese. And there are all ethnic groups of people, many if not most speaking Burmese with strong accent conducting business in a normal peaceful way with not a little sign of discrimination.
If you look into the news items for the last ten or so years you will find that the perception of Burmese hell bent to kill of all the Kalars and Muslim all of a sudden started from 2011.
Unless racism and discrimination are timed calendar event, it is unlikely that Burmese suddenly developed racism and murderous genocidal intent in 2011. It was specifically incited and portrayed as such from that date.
The trouble with Thailand’s new democracy
It is hard to imagine a satisfactory resolution to this sad state-of-affairs that doesn’t involve another military coup led by less thuggish officers.
The trouble with Thailand’s new democracy
So after all the free-association anti-junta pseudo poetry and denial concerning the realities of what has recently constituted “democratic government” in Thailand, does anyone have an “idea” that might be left lying around when the crisis comes?
I didn’t think so.
The trouble with Thailand’s new democracy
My interpretation of this whole business is that it is a tooth-and-nail stand of the national patronage system (network monarchy/military) in the face of growing demand for a national system based on the rule of law. Thaksin has been a kind of catalyst. Having been thrown out of the Thai national patronage system by the King’s edict, he has a better chance of protection for his capital from a fairer court system.
Capital (especially foreign capital) without political connections demands a rule of law that protects capital in general. In the present system, unconnected capital is always in danger of being wiped out in court battles with members of the national patronage system. Chinese capital with its own government connections may think it can operate more successfully in the present Thai milieu. But stark conflicts of national interest inevitably arise in that kind of relationship, as they did historically, with the need of gunboats to protect the interests of British colonial enterprises. Foreign investment that is successful for both sides demands the rule of law: that is, courts that are not part of the corrupt Thai national patronage system. The longer the military/royal dictatorship and its corrupt courts stay in power, the bleaker the outlook for foreign investment in Thailand, and for its economy in general. The local economy also suffers when companies with profitable ideas are crushed or looted in the courts by those with better political connections. People give up on commercial ideas and revert to flattery, grovelling, and bribery to advance themselves.
Southeast Asian snapshots
Then it may appear that I am poorly informed. Could you explain, and enlighten me.