Burma: Thousands dead in massacre of the monks dumped in the jungle
By MARCUS OSCARSSON -Last updated at 15:04pm on 1st October 2007
Thousands of protesters are dead and the bodies of hundreds of executed monks have been dumped in the jungle, a former intelligence officer for Burma’s ruling junta has revealed.
The most senior official to defect so far, Hla Win, said: “Many more people have been killed in recent days than you’ve heard about. The bodies can be counted in several thousand.”
Mr Win, who spoke out as a Swedish diplomat predicted that the revolt has failed, said he fled when he was ordered to take part in a massacre of holy men. He has now reached the border with Thailand.
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monks burma
Slaughter: Executed monks have been dumped in the jungle
Meanwhile, the United Nations special envoy was in Burma’s new capital today seeking meetings with the ruling military junta.
Ibrahim Gambari met detained opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi in Rangoon yesterday. But he has yet to meet the country’s senior generals as he attempts to halt violence against monks and pro-democracy activists.
It is anticipated the meeting will happen tomorrow.
Heavily-armed troops and police flooded the streets of Rangoon during Mr Ibrahim’s visit to prevent new protests.
Mr Gambari met some of the country’s military leaders in Naypyidaw yesterday and has returned there for further talks. But he did not meet senior general Than Shwe or his deputy Maung Aye – and they have issued no comment.
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Tensions: People gather outside a temple after a police raid today
Reports from exiles along the frontier confirmed that hundreds of monks had simply “disappeared” as 20,000 troops swarmed around Rangoon yesterday to prevent further demonstrations by religious groups and civilians.
Word reaching dissidents hiding out on the border suggested that as well as executions, some 2,000 monks are being held in the notorious Insein Prison or in university rooms which have been turned into cells.
There were reports that many were savagely beaten at a sports ground on the outskirts of Rangoon, where they were heard crying for help.
Others who had failed to escape disguised as civilians were locked in their bloodstained temples.
There, troops abandoned religious beliefs, propped their rifles against statues of Buddha and began cooking meals on stoves set up in shrines.
In stark contrast, the streets of Rangoon and Mandalay – centres of the attempted saffron revolution last week – were virtually deserted.
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Checkpoint: Police outside the house of opposition leader Aung Sang Suu Kyi today
Executed: The body of a Buddhist monk floats in a river
A Swedish diplomat who visited Burma during the protests said last night that in her opinion the revolution has failed.
Liselotte Agerlid, who is now in Thailand, said that the Burmese people now face possibly decades of repression. “The Burma revolt is over,” she added.
“The military regime won and a new generation has been violently repressed and violently denied democracy. The people in the street were young people, monks and civilians who were not participating during the 1988 revolt.
“Now the military has cracked down the revolt, and the result may very well be that the regime will enjoy another 20 years of silence, ruling by fear.”
Mrs Agerlid said Rangoon is heavily guarded by soldiers.
“There are extremely high numbers of soldiers in Rangoon’s streets,” she added. “Anyone can see it is absolutely impossible for any demonstration to gather, or for anyone to do anything.
“People are scared and the general assessment is that the fight is over. We were informed from one of the largest embassies in Burma that 40 monks in the Insein prison were beaten to death today and subsequently burned.”
The diplomat also said that three monasteries were raided yesterday afternoon and are now totally abandoned.
At his border hideout last night, 42-year-old Mr Win said he hopes to cross into Thailand and seek asylum at the Norwegian Embassy.
The 42-year-old chief of military intelligence in Rangoon’s northern region, added: “I decided to desert when I was ordered to raid two monasteries and force several hundred monks onto trucks.
“They were to be killed and their bodies dumped deep inside the jungle. I refused to participate in this.”
With his teenage son, he made his escape from Rangoon, leaving behind his wife and two other sons.
He had no fears for their safety because his brother is a powerful general who, he believes, will defend the family.
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Monks protesting in Burma
Protests: But the situation inside Burma remains unclear
Mr Win’s defection will raise a faint hope among tens of thousands of Burmese who have fled to villages along the Thai border.
They will feel others in the army may follow him and turn on their ageing leaders, Senior General Than Shwe and his deputy, Vice Senior General Maung Aye.
I think generally that the sharp differences on the book and the king between Thais on this blog perhaps shows that it isn’t an issue of whether a farang wrote “The King Never Smiles” but that there are real things to talk about.
Col Jeru, Sidh: Thanks for considering to take another look at the book. We disagree on the king’s wisdom, his intent and his impact — so pretty much everything except that he is popular (see below). But look at the book for my arguments and not my motivations. I argue that the king has preferred the “discipline” and “order” (khwaam riaproy) of military rule to “undisciplined” “disorderly” elected parliaments. Maybe he has also found reason to doubt the tenability of military rule, but he hasn’t offered an alternative, besides the Mahajanaka fable and “Thongdaeng”.
Rumors: I think I make clear in the book what is rumor, and I say why this is significant. It is still a minor part of the book. If you dismiss the book simply for this, I’m not sure you’ve really read it. My explanation of use of rumor is hardly a “rationalization”: I use the rumors to make broader points about the royal family’s image. Ask an anthropologist of the importance of rumor in society and politics.
Alan: your claim of “hundreds of billboards” of the king smiling in Isaan is just not true — unless it’s since the book came out. If you found the title absurd, you didn’t understand the book. As for the king’s speeches, I went through them, ad nauseam. In a draft of the book I had much longer excerpts to reinforce numerous points, but then those like Srithanonchai, who found the book and style boring, would not have gotten as far as they did. And I suspect that even if I filled the book with speech excerpts, you still would not get my point.
The Ananda case: I know what critics want me to say — that Bhumibol killed his brother — but I still maintain there would be reasonable doubt were the case tried today without firsthand witnesses or a confession. I have not seen anyone make that case, though certainly it is too risky for someone to do so. Still, I don’t think it really matters. To those that do think so, what do you hope to prove? If the king theoretically confessed to it, it would not really change history, besides giving a little credence to Pridi-ists. And I don’t believe it would have much impact on Bhumibol’s reputation, and arguably might enhance it. That’s part of the point of the book about royal image-building ….
Bhumibol’s popularity: … The king has gained incredible merit (as perceived by the people); he has portrayed himself as in a lifetime of suffering, for the country, and so on. Those who argue that the king would not be popular today if all of a sudden the monarchy was an open topic for discussion are just wrong. I repeat: just plain wrong. It would take years erode his personal image. It is fairly immune to what his family does, to acts of feeble age, to a book by a farang, to whatever Sulak or Nidhi or Somsak or Thongchai or Fah Diawkaan say. Indeed, for example, Thaksin remains popular despite the massive campaign to make sure everyone knows his malfeasances. “Popular” does not mean “correct” or “good”; maybe you are forgetting that. “How do I know?,” Somsak? Some times you have to believe people when they say they love the king. Sometimes you have to take the evidence at face value — the sales of Thongdaeng books and t-shirts, the yellow shirts, the genuine smiles. Why? is another issue.
Royal fortune: I was in Indonesia when the Suharto kids were building their fortune, and I reported on it. There is nothing similar to the king’s family’s position in the Thai economy and that of the Suharto kids. The Suharto kids sought a piece of everything they saw, grabbed openly and never stopped amassing assets, even fighting between themselves. Were the Thai prince like a Suharto kid, he would have: taken over the new airport project but put the debt on the government; directly taken over the major shopping centers and hotels in Bangkok; taken over Bangkok mass transit; taken control of PTT subcontracting operations; taken over Egat; taken a major position in banking and stockbroking in the country; and that’s just the beginning. If he were like that, you would have every other tycoon in Thailand up in arms that he was being squeezed out of his business. Certainly the Thai royal family has billions, maybe tens of billions of dollars in assets, if you mark the property value to current market prices. And certainly the Crown Property Bureau is a wealthy conglomerate, controlled by the palace but overseen also by the Finance Ministry. But there is a world of difference in behavior and impact. Expensive gems and trips and imported Thai food from London can be scandalous but are just little things when it comes to the Suhartos.
So you have to ask why? Who repressed the Thai family, who encouraged the Indonesian family? Suharto wanted his family to be the leaders of the country in all areas. But there is no sign the Thai royal family seeks to dominate the economy in every sector, or even some outside of cement.
Farang bha: I’d love to post the family tree I created, but to read it requires some lost program which I used a short-term try-out version for, and that presents more than a few hassles. The most comprehensive on this is “The Royal Family of Thailand” by Jeffrey Finestone, which was made with the royal family’s support. They had one in the reserve books room at the Chula library, but at one point it was pulled from availability and hidden away — I think someone in the palace had a change of heart about it. I see its expensive but still available on the internet.
Beth: “There is still a large poor and uneducated population in Thailand…”: And isn’t that the whole point.
Free Burma!
International Bloggers’ Day for Burma on the 4th of October
International bloggers are preparing an action to support the peaceful revolution in Burma. We want to set a sign for freedom and show our sympathy for these people who are fighting their cruel regime without weapons. These Bloggers are planning to refrain from posting to their blogs on October 4 and just put up one Banner then, underlined with the words тАЮFree Burma!“.
I thought I wasn’t going to comment, as I only read about half of the book and I skipped to the last few pages… so I knew the end. I haven’t got a chance to pick it up again and finish reading it. This is personal habit; an excuse is time constraint and all that. I see that it seemed OK to some to praise or rather criticize a book they have never read, and so strongly. I get it that the subject matter is important but isn’t it a matter of time before it is another story to tell, extraordinary, or forgettable… it all depends. Some of us appreciate a presentation like My life as a Shan princess, Wild Swan… or Mao or the movie JFK up to Elizabeth; what is accurate, what is not is almost a perception and besides the point. The author in this case wasn’t born and educated in a system that prescribes a theme or color … and he writes ‘Pour mon petit Robin des bois’. So, do we still have a long way to go? If someone doesn’t like it, why doesn’t someone present his/her own version, and see if it would be better received? On the other hand, would we see in our life time a work of scholar in English, in French, or in Chinese for that matter…?
So, for me I thought TKNS was a good read when I was reading it. I had an interest in the subject, and Yale University Press is a good name. I guess I have my opinion – which is not too important here. What surprised me recently, when I was at the village stall, is a comment from an old lady, who I’m pretty sure wouldn’t have heard of TKNS. She said Kon Thammada… They have family problems and they can’t help us. To me, it sounded like things were pretty much demystified… but you kids Yaa Pood Maak, she added and rode away on her bicycle.
I wonder if HM is powerless over his ‘reported’ enormous wealth… like, what to do with it? There is still a large poor and uneducated population in Thailand… now, THAT is a known fact, IMHO.
I have heared that there are a growing number of Burmese who are determined to continue the fight no matter what. They are organising themselves into small local groups using anonymous names. They have a secret plan to take out the army by putting various kinds of slow poison into the food and drink that is delivered to the military all over the country.
Update from Oct. 1 (BP): Burma “has developed its own military regime for a long time to protect its national interests,” said Sonthi. >> Hard to believe that anybody could make such an idiotic statement.
Dear Khun Handley,
The way Khun Republican deals with the issue of ‘highly revered’ is exactly how I would put the matter regarding the ‘positive lessons’ of the reign.
Everytime I hear someone says things like : “Thai people love the King” or “The King has done countless good things for this country”
I would simply ask (in my MIND of course – I’m not cracy) :
HOW DO YOU KNOW?
Suppose the King were to be subjected to the same rules as Thaksin and all the politicians :
Open to scrutiny, criticism, ridicule, attact, etc.
His and ALL his family members’ financial accounts open to public scrutiny.
All his so-called Royal Project open for rational independen assessment and scrutiny, criticism, ridicule, attact, etc.
The case of his brother death open to discussion (a la, JFK movie, for instance)
and of course, without the state propaganda about him and his family
AFTER all these – say within 4 or 5 years, if he were to still ‘highly revered’, I would readily endorse any such talk.
On the other hand, in the absence of all these conditions of modern democracy, I simply ask : HOW DO YOU KNOW about all those ‘reverence’, or ‘positive lessons’?
As I say, consider the book you wrote, the way you put these matters are very strange indeed.
Every attempt must be made to bring down this brutal dictatorship. I am surprised no one has yet called a National Strike, bring everything the Bastard Generals need to run the country to a halt. God bless and protect the people of Burma.
Free Burma!
International Bloggers’ Day for Burma on the 4th of October
International bloggers are preparing an action to support the peaceful revolution in Burma. We want to set a sign for freedom and show our sympathy for these people who are fighting their cruel regime without weapons. These Bloggers are planning to refrain from posting to their blogs on October 4 and just put up one Banner then, underlined with the words тАЮFree Burma!“.
By the way Colonel Jeru, as you would know from many of my postings, being labeled as a “hard-core pro-Thaksin supporters” is a fantasy you can persist with. Of course, as a hard core supporter of the military junta and an illegal coup, you persist in measuring all comments on a Thaksin scale where there are only two points – for or against. So as a supporter of the coup, anyone seeking to comment on the royal family must be pro-Thaksin.
Free Burma!
International Bloggers’ Day for Burma on the 4th of October
International bloggers are preparing an action to support the peaceful revolution in Burma. We want to set a sign for freedom and show our sympathy for these people who are fighting their cruel regime without weapons. These Bloggers are planning to refrain from posting to their blogs on October 4 and just put up one Banner then, underlined with the words тАЮFree Burma!“.
Reply to Paul Handley: Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. I appreciate it. Could I just reply to a couple of specific points in your response:
Regarding the king’s “popularity” you say, “…In the absence of polls, I think the evidence of people’s behavior by choice is overwhelming…”
“Behavior by choice” … I’m trying to think when people have ever had a choice with this king. Obviously they didn’t have the choice to have him as their king. They don’t have the choice of electing a government free from his interference. They don’t have the choice of criticizing him without running the risk of a 15 year jail sentence, or worse. They don’t have the choice of schooling their children without their being indoctrinated into the king’s personality cult. They don’t have the choice of a media free of his propaganda. They don’t have the choice of knowing the full extent of the king’s and royal family’s wealth. They don’t have the choice of studying the facts of the monarchy’s real role in modern Thai political history. They don’t have the choice NOT to grovel in prostration in his presence. Etc. etc. etc.
My point is that when Western academics and media constantly repeat this phrase “the highly revered king”, without also pointing out the reasons why people appear to “revere”/ “respect” the king, aren’t they in fact contributing to the propaganda, and indirectly to the political repression in the king’s name that is a product of this propaganda? It’s like saying “the highly revered” Mao or the “highly revered” Kim Jong Il. They appear “highly revered” because it is simply not possible politically (both in the personal and in the public sense) to adopt any other posture. As I’ve said on this website before, in my view the support that the Thai king and the royalist establishment (“network”) surrounding him gets from the “international community” – including academics, the media, aid organizations, international institutions, eg. the UNDP, as well as foreign governments – is a crucial pillar supporting his political authority in Thailand. Remove that – as in the case of Suharto after the Cold War when he was no longer needed as an anti-communist ally to the West – and you deal a blow to that authority.
“… In Thailand, something – the king perhaps? – has prevented the Mahidol children from being that rapacious, if they had it in them. Thaksin’s family was taking that path though….”
Others have already beaten me to it but could I add my comment here: are we talking about the same family? I think if you examined the personal worth of the king’s children (if the information was freely available) there is ample evidence of a rapacity comparable, if not equal to, that of the Suharto children. Let’s leave aside the palaces, share holdings, jewellery collections (including, allegedly, some of the Saudi royal family’s stolen royal jewels), real estate, charities, research institutes, etc. and take one small example which might otherwise be easy to overlook: graduation ceremonies (the season has just finished). These important occasions, which in other countries are held to celebrate the achievement of the graduands, in Thailand have been converted into ceremonies eulogizing the royal family. Apart from their propaganda value the prince and princesses who preside over these ceremonies get a per-head commission based on the number of students graduating. Then multiply this with the tens of thousands of university students who graduate each year and you have a not inconsiderable figure. Sometimes an additional “gift”, say, a state-of-the-art laptop computer, will be thrown in by the university authorities. All for a few hours “work”. Consider the brilliance of this scheme’s conception: their own subjects are forced to pay for the royals’ propaganda.
I can’t really see the comparison with Thaksin’s children, apart from the fact that they are obviously well looked after. I don’t agree that the family of a PM who was in power for 5 years, most of whose wealth was acquired before he became PM, and who could have been tossed out at any election (if not a coup), bears a greater similarity to the Suharto children than the Thai royals. As for the murderous, philandering Tommy, isn’t the Crown Prince the natural comparison?
Again, I come back to the main theme of my posts. The singular achievement of the Thai king is how he has been able to HIDE his corruption of Thailand’s political system both from his own citizens as well as from the “international community” for so long. What we are talking about here I think is one of the greatest deceptions in modern political history.
Alan: As usual, the critics cannot cite the errors and problems to allow for a clear discussion. It just comes down to a silly point of, I don’t like it… because of tone or unspecified rumours or something like that. Doesn’t get us anywhere. You can hang around Thailand and not learn much I guess if you choose not to.
Col. Jeru: You can guess as much as you like about the cost of the royals, but as you imply, no one knows. That’s just one area where a lack of transparency is a problem related to this royal family. But we can ponder a bit.
They are generally assessed as being one of the wealthiest royal families in Asia (see Forbes – $5 billion), but this is based on an assessment of their institutional stock market investments alone. How much could their land be worth? $10-20 billion or more? And, if we were to look at their personal wealth, again, there is no transparency.
While fabulously rich, they also get a load from the government in a way that is less transparent than the old secret military fund. How much was the new plane? I think the Bkk Post had it in the billions. Most of the European monarchies look frugal compared with this lot.
I read somewhere that the 10 monarchies of Europe all together incur annual expenses of below $200 million during the 1980s, with the British monarchy accounting for more than half of that (on average, monarchies incur less than $10 million annually).
It would be wonderful if Thailand would be more transparent with how much its monarchy is costing the Thai taxpayers. But I would hazard a guess that it would be below the cost of maintaining the British monarchy.
But I get the impression that the prince and princesses carry on their royal duties under some tight government budget. Which is why I recall those stories about the CP having “to borrow’ from well-off hi-sos, and also those rumors of largesse from Thaksin, to maintain the CP’s rumored extravagant lifestyle.
But Restorationist, Historicus, Tosakan and Republican do not have to be cute with their baits. I always scan all threes’ posters because I’m always suspicious of these hard-core pro-Thaksin supporters, whether they deny it or not.
Alan: I rather doubt that merely acting as an apologist will open up broader perspectives in our quest for knowledge on Thailand. Handley has gone much beyond this position already. You should not fall back behind it…
“which are too difficult for me to try to sum up for you in a few lines” > Since you say that, contrary to me, you know everything and could explain it if you were not restricted by the format of a message board, may I suggest you write an academic article and publish it, prefereably in The Pacific Review? For good measure, you could throw in another text defending the rather controversial “sufficiency economy” propaganda/approach. Alternatively, submit longer guest contributions about these issues to New Mandala.
“I will have to leave it at that and let you all continue on with your debate.” > Very convenient indeed. See the second paragraph.
I have become rather bored of this “long-time-foreigner” argument. As if the length of time one has spent in Thailand and the degree of one’s proviency in Thai (and Isan!) would causally determine a specific set of opinions. There are so many farang who have the same characteristics you claim to have but are very much critical of certain socio-political phenomena in Thailand, including of having an appreciation of Handley’s book, although they might not agree with everything he said.
So much of what has been coming out of Burma for the past two days is hazy, but too terrifying to discount. I am reminded of how, during the years of the Khmer Rouge, no one wanted to believe the accounts coming out of Khmer refugee camps in Thailand because they were just too awful to fathom. We know for a fact that there are monastery lock-downs, so how are monks getting food? What is happening to detained protesters, both lay and monastic? The junta could be doing anything to them behind closed doors (isn’t detaining them in an of itself a gross violation of international law?). Is the death toll 10 or 200? I hope Ibrahim Gambari is able to get accurate information about of the current situation, but I think it’s a given that the junta will do everything in its power to deceive him.
Srithanonchai, sure his comments were aimed at Thaksin and others, but that doesn’t negate his message. I think his power to cultivate this atmosphere of openness you say is complicated by many political factors which are too difficult for me to try to sum up for you in a few lines on a message board. It’s an immensely complicated and dangerous arena that the King is operating within. Has he always managed it perfectly. Of course not. But, all things considered, he has done an admirable job. If Thaksin had used all that money he threw down on the drain on corrupt village fund schemes to support Royal initiated sufficiency development projects (the successes of which I’ve seen first hand) on a country-wide basis, the rural people would be much better off instead of wallowing in debt.
Restorationist, it is beyond me how my comment about the title shows that I haven’t been in Thailand long. It is the fact that I have lived here so long and have fluency in both Thai and Isaan that I had problems with Handley’s book. As someone who has researched the King, I can state that I’ve never had any trouble finding Royal addresses to read. Are they (or were they) difficult to find in English. Yes. But Handley surely shouldn’t be writing a biography about the King unless he can read and speak Thai fluently and conduct his own translations. But I have no knowledge of Handley’s fluency in Thai. Though on reading the book I did have my suspicions.
As to citing specifics, well sorry, I’ve long since loaned my copy out to others and can’t leaf through to cite specifics for you. I can only sum up my general impression about the book at this point. Which I’ve done. And these impressions have been pretty much shared by those other long time foreigners in Thailand to whom I’ve loaned the book. I will have to leave it at that and let you all continue on with your debate.
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What the Burmese junta wants you to believe…
Article form UK press today:
Burma: Thousands dead in massacre of the monks dumped in the jungle
By MARCUS OSCARSSON -Last updated at 15:04pm on 1st October 2007
Thousands of protesters are dead and the bodies of hundreds of executed monks have been dumped in the jungle, a former intelligence officer for Burma’s ruling junta has revealed.
The most senior official to defect so far, Hla Win, said: “Many more people have been killed in recent days than you’ve heard about. The bodies can be counted in several thousand.”
Mr Win, who spoke out as a Swedish diplomat predicted that the revolt has failed, said he fled when he was ordered to take part in a massacre of holy men. He has now reached the border with Thailand.
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monks burma
Slaughter: Executed monks have been dumped in the jungle
Meanwhile, the United Nations special envoy was in Burma’s new capital today seeking meetings with the ruling military junta.
Ibrahim Gambari met detained opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi in Rangoon yesterday. But he has yet to meet the country’s senior generals as he attempts to halt violence against monks and pro-democracy activists.
It is anticipated the meeting will happen tomorrow.
Heavily-armed troops and police flooded the streets of Rangoon during Mr Ibrahim’s visit to prevent new protests.
Mr Gambari met some of the country’s military leaders in Naypyidaw yesterday and has returned there for further talks. But he did not meet senior general Than Shwe or his deputy Maung Aye – and they have issued no comment.
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Tensions: People gather outside a temple after a police raid today
Reports from exiles along the frontier confirmed that hundreds of monks had simply “disappeared” as 20,000 troops swarmed around Rangoon yesterday to prevent further demonstrations by religious groups and civilians.
Word reaching dissidents hiding out on the border suggested that as well as executions, some 2,000 monks are being held in the notorious Insein Prison or in university rooms which have been turned into cells.
There were reports that many were savagely beaten at a sports ground on the outskirts of Rangoon, where they were heard crying for help.
Others who had failed to escape disguised as civilians were locked in their bloodstained temples.
There, troops abandoned religious beliefs, propped their rifles against statues of Buddha and began cooking meals on stoves set up in shrines.
In stark contrast, the streets of Rangoon and Mandalay – centres of the attempted saffron revolution last week – were virtually deserted.
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Checkpoint: Police outside the house of opposition leader Aung Sang Suu Kyi today
Executed: The body of a Buddhist monk floats in a river
A Swedish diplomat who visited Burma during the protests said last night that in her opinion the revolution has failed.
Liselotte Agerlid, who is now in Thailand, said that the Burmese people now face possibly decades of repression. “The Burma revolt is over,” she added.
“The military regime won and a new generation has been violently repressed and violently denied democracy. The people in the street were young people, monks and civilians who were not participating during the 1988 revolt.
“Now the military has cracked down the revolt, and the result may very well be that the regime will enjoy another 20 years of silence, ruling by fear.”
Mrs Agerlid said Rangoon is heavily guarded by soldiers.
“There are extremely high numbers of soldiers in Rangoon’s streets,” she added. “Anyone can see it is absolutely impossible for any demonstration to gather, or for anyone to do anything.
“People are scared and the general assessment is that the fight is over. We were informed from one of the largest embassies in Burma that 40 monks in the Insein prison were beaten to death today and subsequently burned.”
The diplomat also said that three monasteries were raided yesterday afternoon and are now totally abandoned.
At his border hideout last night, 42-year-old Mr Win said he hopes to cross into Thailand and seek asylum at the Norwegian Embassy.
The 42-year-old chief of military intelligence in Rangoon’s northern region, added: “I decided to desert when I was ordered to raid two monasteries and force several hundred monks onto trucks.
“They were to be killed and their bodies dumped deep inside the jungle. I refused to participate in this.”
With his teenage son, he made his escape from Rangoon, leaving behind his wife and two other sons.
He had no fears for their safety because his brother is a powerful general who, he believes, will defend the family.
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Monks protesting in Burma
Protests: But the situation inside Burma remains unclear
Mr Win’s defection will raise a faint hope among tens of thousands of Burmese who have fled to villages along the Thai border.
They will feel others in the army may follow him and turn on their ageing leaders, Senior General Than Shwe and his deputy, Vice Senior General Maung Aye.
Paul Handley replies to comments
A few more responses:
I think generally that the sharp differences on the book and the king between Thais on this blog perhaps shows that it isn’t an issue of whether a farang wrote “The King Never Smiles” but that there are real things to talk about.
Col Jeru, Sidh: Thanks for considering to take another look at the book. We disagree on the king’s wisdom, his intent and his impact — so pretty much everything except that he is popular (see below). But look at the book for my arguments and not my motivations. I argue that the king has preferred the “discipline” and “order” (khwaam riaproy) of military rule to “undisciplined” “disorderly” elected parliaments. Maybe he has also found reason to doubt the tenability of military rule, but he hasn’t offered an alternative, besides the Mahajanaka fable and “Thongdaeng”.
Rumors: I think I make clear in the book what is rumor, and I say why this is significant. It is still a minor part of the book. If you dismiss the book simply for this, I’m not sure you’ve really read it. My explanation of use of rumor is hardly a “rationalization”: I use the rumors to make broader points about the royal family’s image. Ask an anthropologist of the importance of rumor in society and politics.
Alan: your claim of “hundreds of billboards” of the king smiling in Isaan is just not true — unless it’s since the book came out. If you found the title absurd, you didn’t understand the book. As for the king’s speeches, I went through them, ad nauseam. In a draft of the book I had much longer excerpts to reinforce numerous points, but then those like Srithanonchai, who found the book and style boring, would not have gotten as far as they did. And I suspect that even if I filled the book with speech excerpts, you still would not get my point.
The Ananda case: I know what critics want me to say — that Bhumibol killed his brother — but I still maintain there would be reasonable doubt were the case tried today without firsthand witnesses or a confession. I have not seen anyone make that case, though certainly it is too risky for someone to do so. Still, I don’t think it really matters. To those that do think so, what do you hope to prove? If the king theoretically confessed to it, it would not really change history, besides giving a little credence to Pridi-ists. And I don’t believe it would have much impact on Bhumibol’s reputation, and arguably might enhance it. That’s part of the point of the book about royal image-building ….
Bhumibol’s popularity: … The king has gained incredible merit (as perceived by the people); he has portrayed himself as in a lifetime of suffering, for the country, and so on. Those who argue that the king would not be popular today if all of a sudden the monarchy was an open topic for discussion are just wrong. I repeat: just plain wrong. It would take years erode his personal image. It is fairly immune to what his family does, to acts of feeble age, to a book by a farang, to whatever Sulak or Nidhi or Somsak or Thongchai or Fah Diawkaan say. Indeed, for example, Thaksin remains popular despite the massive campaign to make sure everyone knows his malfeasances. “Popular” does not mean “correct” or “good”; maybe you are forgetting that. “How do I know?,” Somsak? Some times you have to believe people when they say they love the king. Sometimes you have to take the evidence at face value — the sales of Thongdaeng books and t-shirts, the yellow shirts, the genuine smiles. Why? is another issue.
Royal fortune: I was in Indonesia when the Suharto kids were building their fortune, and I reported on it. There is nothing similar to the king’s family’s position in the Thai economy and that of the Suharto kids. The Suharto kids sought a piece of everything they saw, grabbed openly and never stopped amassing assets, even fighting between themselves. Were the Thai prince like a Suharto kid, he would have: taken over the new airport project but put the debt on the government; directly taken over the major shopping centers and hotels in Bangkok; taken over Bangkok mass transit; taken control of PTT subcontracting operations; taken over Egat; taken a major position in banking and stockbroking in the country; and that’s just the beginning. If he were like that, you would have every other tycoon in Thailand up in arms that he was being squeezed out of his business. Certainly the Thai royal family has billions, maybe tens of billions of dollars in assets, if you mark the property value to current market prices. And certainly the Crown Property Bureau is a wealthy conglomerate, controlled by the palace but overseen also by the Finance Ministry. But there is a world of difference in behavior and impact. Expensive gems and trips and imported Thai food from London can be scandalous but are just little things when it comes to the Suhartos.
So you have to ask why? Who repressed the Thai family, who encouraged the Indonesian family? Suharto wanted his family to be the leaders of the country in all areas. But there is no sign the Thai royal family seeks to dominate the economy in every sector, or even some outside of cement.
Farang bha: I’d love to post the family tree I created, but to read it requires some lost program which I used a short-term try-out version for, and that presents more than a few hassles. The most comprehensive on this is “The Royal Family of Thailand” by Jeffrey Finestone, which was made with the royal family’s support. They had one in the reserve books room at the Chula library, but at one point it was pulled from availability and hidden away — I think someone in the palace had a change of heart about it. I see its expensive but still available on the internet.
Beth: “There is still a large poor and uneducated population in Thailand…”: And isn’t that the whole point.
Global protest petition on Burma
Free Burma!
International Bloggers’ Day for Burma on the 4th of October
International bloggers are preparing an action to support the peaceful revolution in Burma. We want to set a sign for freedom and show our sympathy for these people who are fighting their cruel regime without weapons. These Bloggers are planning to refrain from posting to their blogs on October 4 and just put up one Banner then, underlined with the words тАЮFree Burma!“.
http://www.free-burma.org
Paul Handley replies to comments
I thought I wasn’t going to comment, as I only read about half of the book and I skipped to the last few pages… so I knew the end. I haven’t got a chance to pick it up again and finish reading it. This is personal habit; an excuse is time constraint and all that. I see that it seemed OK to some to praise or rather criticize a book they have never read, and so strongly. I get it that the subject matter is important but isn’t it a matter of time before it is another story to tell, extraordinary, or forgettable… it all depends. Some of us appreciate a presentation like My life as a Shan princess, Wild Swan… or Mao or the movie JFK up to Elizabeth; what is accurate, what is not is almost a perception and besides the point. The author in this case wasn’t born and educated in a system that prescribes a theme or color … and he writes ‘Pour mon petit Robin des bois’. So, do we still have a long way to go? If someone doesn’t like it, why doesn’t someone present his/her own version, and see if it would be better received? On the other hand, would we see in our life time a work of scholar in English, in French, or in Chinese for that matter…?
So, for me I thought TKNS was a good read when I was reading it. I had an interest in the subject, and Yale University Press is a good name. I guess I have my opinion – which is not too important here. What surprised me recently, when I was at the village stall, is a comment from an old lady, who I’m pretty sure wouldn’t have heard of TKNS. She said Kon Thammada… They have family problems and they can’t help us. To me, it sounded like things were pretty much demystified… but you kids Yaa Pood Maak, she added and rode away on her bicycle.
I wonder if HM is powerless over his ‘reported’ enormous wealth… like, what to do with it? There is still a large poor and uneducated population in Thailand… now, THAT is a known fact, IMHO.
New Burma blog
I have heared that there are a growing number of Burmese who are determined to continue the fight no matter what. They are organising themselves into small local groups using anonymous names. They have a secret plan to take out the army by putting various kinds of slow poison into the food and drink that is delivered to the military all over the country.
Burma protest in Sydney
Hi, I missed the protest Thursday night but please let me know of any other actions in solidarity with the Burmeses people.
Thanks,
Linda
“Lee Kuan Yew – ANU is not for you!”
Take a look at Mentalley for a take on the recent IHT interview with LKY
Thailand’s mad junta
Update from Oct. 1 (BP): Burma “has developed its own military regime for a long time to protect its national interests,” said Sonthi. >> Hard to believe that anybody could make such an idiotic statement.
Paul Handley replies to comments
Thanks to Republican.
Dear Khun Handley,
The way Khun Republican deals with the issue of ‘highly revered’ is exactly how I would put the matter regarding the ‘positive lessons’ of the reign.
Everytime I hear someone says things like : “Thai people love the King” or “The King has done countless good things for this country”
I would simply ask (in my MIND of course – I’m not cracy) :
HOW DO YOU KNOW?
Suppose the King were to be subjected to the same rules as Thaksin and all the politicians :
Open to scrutiny, criticism, ridicule, attact, etc.
His and ALL his family members’ financial accounts open to public scrutiny.
All his so-called Royal Project open for rational independen assessment and scrutiny, criticism, ridicule, attact, etc.
The case of his brother death open to discussion (a la, JFK movie, for instance)
and of course, without the state propaganda about him and his family
AFTER all these – say within 4 or 5 years, if he were to still ‘highly revered’, I would readily endorse any such talk.
On the other hand, in the absence of all these conditions of modern democracy, I simply ask : HOW DO YOU KNOW about all those ‘reverence’, or ‘positive lessons’?
As I say, consider the book you wrote, the way you put these matters are very strange indeed.
Japanese reaction to journalist’s death
Every attempt must be made to bring down this brutal dictatorship. I am surprised no one has yet called a National Strike, bring everything the Bastard Generals need to run the country to a halt. God bless and protect the people of Burma.
Prayers for Burma
Free Burma!
International Bloggers’ Day for Burma on the 4th of October
International bloggers are preparing an action to support the peaceful revolution in Burma. We want to set a sign for freedom and show our sympathy for these people who are fighting their cruel regime without weapons. These Bloggers are planning to refrain from posting to their blogs on October 4 and just put up one Banner then, underlined with the words тАЮFree Burma!“.
http://www.free-burma.org
Paul Handley replies to comments
By the way Colonel Jeru, as you would know from many of my postings, being labeled as a “hard-core pro-Thaksin supporters” is a fantasy you can persist with. Of course, as a hard core supporter of the military junta and an illegal coup, you persist in measuring all comments on a Thaksin scale where there are only two points – for or against. So as a supporter of the coup, anyone seeking to comment on the royal family must be pro-Thaksin.
Japanese reaction to journalist’s death
Free Burma!
International Bloggers’ Day for Burma on the 4th of October
International bloggers are preparing an action to support the peaceful revolution in Burma. We want to set a sign for freedom and show our sympathy for these people who are fighting their cruel regime without weapons. These Bloggers are planning to refrain from posting to their blogs on October 4 and just put up one Banner then, underlined with the words тАЮFree Burma!“.
http://www.free-burma.org
Paul Handley replies to comments
Reply to Paul Handley: Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. I appreciate it. Could I just reply to a couple of specific points in your response:
Regarding the king’s “popularity” you say, “…In the absence of polls, I think the evidence of people’s behavior by choice is overwhelming…”
“Behavior by choice” … I’m trying to think when people have ever had a choice with this king. Obviously they didn’t have the choice to have him as their king. They don’t have the choice of electing a government free from his interference. They don’t have the choice of criticizing him without running the risk of a 15 year jail sentence, or worse. They don’t have the choice of schooling their children without their being indoctrinated into the king’s personality cult. They don’t have the choice of a media free of his propaganda. They don’t have the choice of knowing the full extent of the king’s and royal family’s wealth. They don’t have the choice of studying the facts of the monarchy’s real role in modern Thai political history. They don’t have the choice NOT to grovel in prostration in his presence. Etc. etc. etc.
My point is that when Western academics and media constantly repeat this phrase “the highly revered king”, without also pointing out the reasons why people appear to “revere”/ “respect” the king, aren’t they in fact contributing to the propaganda, and indirectly to the political repression in the king’s name that is a product of this propaganda? It’s like saying “the highly revered” Mao or the “highly revered” Kim Jong Il. They appear “highly revered” because it is simply not possible politically (both in the personal and in the public sense) to adopt any other posture. As I’ve said on this website before, in my view the support that the Thai king and the royalist establishment (“network”) surrounding him gets from the “international community” – including academics, the media, aid organizations, international institutions, eg. the UNDP, as well as foreign governments – is a crucial pillar supporting his political authority in Thailand. Remove that – as in the case of Suharto after the Cold War when he was no longer needed as an anti-communist ally to the West – and you deal a blow to that authority.
“… In Thailand, something – the king perhaps? – has prevented the Mahidol children from being that rapacious, if they had it in them. Thaksin’s family was taking that path though….”
Others have already beaten me to it but could I add my comment here: are we talking about the same family? I think if you examined the personal worth of the king’s children (if the information was freely available) there is ample evidence of a rapacity comparable, if not equal to, that of the Suharto children. Let’s leave aside the palaces, share holdings, jewellery collections (including, allegedly, some of the Saudi royal family’s stolen royal jewels), real estate, charities, research institutes, etc. and take one small example which might otherwise be easy to overlook: graduation ceremonies (the season has just finished). These important occasions, which in other countries are held to celebrate the achievement of the graduands, in Thailand have been converted into ceremonies eulogizing the royal family. Apart from their propaganda value the prince and princesses who preside over these ceremonies get a per-head commission based on the number of students graduating. Then multiply this with the tens of thousands of university students who graduate each year and you have a not inconsiderable figure. Sometimes an additional “gift”, say, a state-of-the-art laptop computer, will be thrown in by the university authorities. All for a few hours “work”. Consider the brilliance of this scheme’s conception: their own subjects are forced to pay for the royals’ propaganda.
I can’t really see the comparison with Thaksin’s children, apart from the fact that they are obviously well looked after. I don’t agree that the family of a PM who was in power for 5 years, most of whose wealth was acquired before he became PM, and who could have been tossed out at any election (if not a coup), bears a greater similarity to the Suharto children than the Thai royals. As for the murderous, philandering Tommy, isn’t the Crown Prince the natural comparison?
Again, I come back to the main theme of my posts. The singular achievement of the Thai king is how he has been able to HIDE his corruption of Thailand’s political system both from his own citizens as well as from the “international community” for so long. What we are talking about here I think is one of the greatest deceptions in modern political history.
Paul Handley replies to comments
Alan: As usual, the critics cannot cite the errors and problems to allow for a clear discussion. It just comes down to a silly point of, I don’t like it… because of tone or unspecified rumours or something like that. Doesn’t get us anywhere. You can hang around Thailand and not learn much I guess if you choose not to.
Col. Jeru: You can guess as much as you like about the cost of the royals, but as you imply, no one knows. That’s just one area where a lack of transparency is a problem related to this royal family. But we can ponder a bit.
They are generally assessed as being one of the wealthiest royal families in Asia (see Forbes – $5 billion), but this is based on an assessment of their institutional stock market investments alone. How much could their land be worth? $10-20 billion or more? And, if we were to look at their personal wealth, again, there is no transparency.
While fabulously rich, they also get a load from the government in a way that is less transparent than the old secret military fund. How much was the new plane? I think the Bkk Post had it in the billions. Most of the European monarchies look frugal compared with this lot.
Paul Handley replies to comments
I read somewhere that the 10 monarchies of Europe all together incur annual expenses of below $200 million during the 1980s, with the British monarchy accounting for more than half of that (on average, monarchies incur less than $10 million annually).
It would be wonderful if Thailand would be more transparent with how much its monarchy is costing the Thai taxpayers. But I would hazard a guess that it would be below the cost of maintaining the British monarchy.
But I get the impression that the prince and princesses carry on their royal duties under some tight government budget. Which is why I recall those stories about the CP having “to borrow’ from well-off hi-sos, and also those rumors of largesse from Thaksin, to maintain the CP’s rumored extravagant lifestyle.
But Restorationist, Historicus, Tosakan and Republican do not have to be cute with their baits. I always scan all threes’ posters because I’m always suspicious of these hard-core pro-Thaksin supporters, whether they deny it or not.
Paul Handley replies to comments
Alan: I rather doubt that merely acting as an apologist will open up broader perspectives in our quest for knowledge on Thailand. Handley has gone much beyond this position already. You should not fall back behind it…
“which are too difficult for me to try to sum up for you in a few lines” > Since you say that, contrary to me, you know everything and could explain it if you were not restricted by the format of a message board, may I suggest you write an academic article and publish it, prefereably in The Pacific Review? For good measure, you could throw in another text defending the rather controversial “sufficiency economy” propaganda/approach. Alternatively, submit longer guest contributions about these issues to New Mandala.
“I will have to leave it at that and let you all continue on with your debate.” > Very convenient indeed. See the second paragraph.
I have become rather bored of this “long-time-foreigner” argument. As if the length of time one has spent in Thailand and the degree of one’s proviency in Thai (and Isan!) would causally determine a specific set of opinions. There are so many farang who have the same characteristics you claim to have but are very much critical of certain socio-political phenomena in Thailand, including of having an appreciation of Handley’s book, although they might not agree with everything he said.
Unconfirmed report from Burma
So much of what has been coming out of Burma for the past two days is hazy, but too terrifying to discount. I am reminded of how, during the years of the Khmer Rouge, no one wanted to believe the accounts coming out of Khmer refugee camps in Thailand because they were just too awful to fathom. We know for a fact that there are monastery lock-downs, so how are monks getting food? What is happening to detained protesters, both lay and monastic? The junta could be doing anything to them behind closed doors (isn’t detaining them in an of itself a gross violation of international law?). Is the death toll 10 or 200? I hope Ibrahim Gambari is able to get accurate information about of the current situation, but I think it’s a given that the junta will do everything in its power to deceive him.
Paul Handley replies to comments
Srithanonchai, sure his comments were aimed at Thaksin and others, but that doesn’t negate his message. I think his power to cultivate this atmosphere of openness you say is complicated by many political factors which are too difficult for me to try to sum up for you in a few lines on a message board. It’s an immensely complicated and dangerous arena that the King is operating within. Has he always managed it perfectly. Of course not. But, all things considered, he has done an admirable job. If Thaksin had used all that money he threw down on the drain on corrupt village fund schemes to support Royal initiated sufficiency development projects (the successes of which I’ve seen first hand) on a country-wide basis, the rural people would be much better off instead of wallowing in debt.
Restorationist, it is beyond me how my comment about the title shows that I haven’t been in Thailand long. It is the fact that I have lived here so long and have fluency in both Thai and Isaan that I had problems with Handley’s book. As someone who has researched the King, I can state that I’ve never had any trouble finding Royal addresses to read. Are they (or were they) difficult to find in English. Yes. But Handley surely shouldn’t be writing a biography about the King unless he can read and speak Thai fluently and conduct his own translations. But I have no knowledge of Handley’s fluency in Thai. Though on reading the book I did have my suspicions.
As to citing specifics, well sorry, I’ve long since loaned my copy out to others and can’t leaf through to cite specifics for you. I can only sum up my general impression about the book at this point. Which I’ve done. And these impressions have been pretty much shared by those other long time foreigners in Thailand to whom I’ve loaned the book. I will have to leave it at that and let you all continue on with your debate.
Japanese reaction to journalist’s death
[…] Walker wrote an interesting post today on Comment on Japanese reaction to journalistâАЩs death by Global …Here’s a quick […]