Better calm down — blood pressure is a serious thing. Besides, if you require every comment on this blog to be based on substantial field research, reading of the relevant literature, talking to the relevant people, and thorough reflexion you would soon be lonely.
I’m pretty sure the Burmese Junta promised a constitution and a timetable and pathway back to democracy too. They’ve been promising for about 30 years now.
3) Thailand is generally agreed to have an incredibly bloated military, especially at the top level; it has far more generals than any other military of its size. Appointment to the rank of general is at the king’s discretion. They cost a lot, even when they aren’t leading coups. Then again, ever since Sarit the military have hid behind HMK’s robes and used him as a puppet, so perhaps this last isn’t his fault.
To be deposed by a popular uprising, you have to be unpopular. This was not the case for Thaksin, for very good reasons. The government is not a bicycle and the general public are not children! This kind of paternalist metaphor is completely unhelpful.
“there have been no concrete examples of HMK diverting grand funds from State to his own personal investments ”
1) the Siam Central Bank and various other companies owned by the Crown Property Bureau were the first to be bailed out by the state (the taxpayer) when the currency crisis hit, despite their longstanding record of sub standard and corrupt banking and business practices. No such largesse was forthcoming to all the workers who lost their jobs.
2) There has never been any independent oversight, auditing, etc of the many many millions spent on the various “Royal sufficiency, royal agriculture, New Economic Plan, etc” projects. No one would dare. As a result no-one knows if they actually work.
It would be nice if anti-corruption could proceed from the top down. The problem is that anti-corruption agencies in developing (and many developed) countries are usually demoralised, starved of funds, marginalised, etc by the governments they are supposed to monitor. Going straight to the top is more likely to result in the agency or those within it being punished than effective change occurring.
The practice in development circles these days is to strengthen anti-corruption watchdogs to go after the little fish first. This creates a success record which generates internal morale, experience, favourable publicity and support (at least in public) from the politicians as well as the general public. The watchdogs can then start working their way up the food chain.
The idea is similar to New York’s “zero tolerance” policy that some credit for the reduction in major crime. This is also known as the “broken window” effect; criminals who see that minor crimes (eg breaking a window) go unpunished and unfixed are emboldened to commit bigger crimes. Broken windows, while minor in themselves, send a message that a state of lawlessness prevails.
Come on . . . all you NM bloggers keep regurgitating the same old trite plaint that the Thai middle class and academics had abandoned Thai democracy that allowed the generals to take over just because of “jealousy or hatred’ of Thaksin. What rubbish!
None of you NM bloggers, including academics Andrew Walker or Nicholas Farrely had been able to educate me on how you all see the Thaksin dead-end democracy playing out, other than via a coup (pro-Thaksin coup or anti). Had we NOT seen this very moronic dead-end democracy played out elsewhere before (Philippines for one) with the coup as the only recourse to stop the rot and stop the corrupt leader??
Historicus keep on giving me the colonel rank so I accept. Since I outrank Pol. Lt. Col. Thaksin Shinawatra, can I extra-judicially shoot Thaksin on sight just for the pleasure?
Restorationist: You should worry more about the blind eye that the electorate turns to wrongdoings – if that eye was opened there would have been no chance of a coup.
Play the partisan game if you want, but I would prefer for the groundwork to be laid such that coups would no longer be considered necessary or possible.
Jeru seems to have chosen the “And-Carthago-must-be-destroyed” approach — in its Thai version, “Thaksin ok pai” (was rather loud around Government House…).
Societal formations do not implode or explode this easily. Using figurative expressions are not always that helpful. But sure will there be a void, and one might ask who or what might try to fill it.
Ah Col jeru at his best and worst. Name-calling and elitism. The idea seems to be that if you yell loud enough people will listen and if you say it enough you will convince the disbelievers.
jeru asks if “After HMK Bhumibhol, will Thailand implode because there will be no more ‘unifying’ father symbol?” Good question, but seriously, if this king and his advisers and their military allies had worked to develop a real constitutional democracy, this wouldn’t be a question that would need to be asked.
My question was about your blind eye. You seem to justify ignoring the military junta’s and palace’s machinations on the basis that Thaksin was bad, the king will die and the rural masses are blind. Your position exonerates the palace-directed elite manipulating the political system in their own interests. Isn’t that what you accuse Thaksin of doing (amongst other sins)?
Is that how to describe what New Mandala commentators like Andrew Walker have been doing all this time – – – – “masturbating your academic knowledge” to defend Thaksin’s deeply flawed democracy?
Come on stop this b.s. about the Thai poor being disenfranchised. Those poor who sold their votes deserve to be disenfranchised. But those poor vilage voters who were intimidated (and there was intimidation . . “take this money and vote for xxxx, or a bullet is the alternative”) by their kamnans have been saved.
I am grateful Thaksin the danger had been removed. Too bad his removal was done extra-constitutionally, yet, I believe keeping Thaksin longer was putting Thailand in even more grave danger.
B-b-but the Thai people already have developed everything on their own!
their own law –> where in the world can people running for elections pledge to overturn the law (ie Samak) or create their own laws (ie coup). This is a Thai-style phenomena.
their own medicine –> I never knew that ‘ya mong’ was a cure all cream. Lets not forget the aab ob nuad method to cure stress…
their own science –> who needs r&d or government spending on science when you got jatukam ramathep?
their own technology –> TUK TUK, AMULETS produciton in aeroplanes.
In the case of Thailand, I would probably talk about the virtue of patience.
One should not even suggest topping 60+years of goodwill, even based on the strong foundations of democracy. Many people I notice on these boards give good and strong pros and cons on the status of Thai society and its acceptance with the total chaos that democracy can bring. One of it being a peoples uprising against Thaksin (much bloodier than a military coup).
I also find it comical that such smart, rational, and disciplined people like the Thais can also (and often the same people) be blind with emotions and superstitions.
As such, I feel that Democratic Institutions require failure for them to be strengthened.
HMK is great because of how he has ruled for 60 years. If he was unjust or indulgent he would never build the love and respect of the great majority of Thai people (as I don’t believe in absolutes, I won’t say all, also Thaksin is definately not a lover of HMK). You can fool most of the people some of the time, but you can’t fool most of the people most of the time, no matter how unjust the lese majeste laws might be.
Furthermore, though there is some talk about HMK curtailing Democratic reform, these has been no concrete examples of HMK diverting grand funds from State to his own personal investments or HMK being frugal with taxpayers money as opposed to say Thaksin Shinawatra. I’d say that HMK has is the beacon of all the great things of Thai culture, and at worst has been too paternalistic about democracy. The best analogy I guess is that he’s too worried to take the training wheels off the bike because he feels his child will fall and get hurt. I know how that feels because I fell off a bike in my first try and required 7 stitches!
But I would probably argue that patience and restraint are among the best virtues of Thai people. I would’ve preferred Thaksin to be gone through a popular uprising, that would’ve truly planted strengthened democratic institutions in the country with amendments protecting minority rights and curtailing executive power. But I also understand that this is not really what an 80 year old man nearing the end of his life would’ve wanted to see his life dedication and work (which he did honestly and ethically, with human mistakes along the way) suddenly transform into a state of chaos.
Hence patience and restraint for a popular democratic society is, in my humble opinion, the best way forward for Thailand right now. Democracy activists are better off working with grass root activism for now. I don’t honestly think Thailand will be ready for full-blown democracy, sad to say, till HMK is no longer with us. Pity that 2 amazing things have to be mutually exclusive.
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The ethical poverty of sufficiency democracy
Better calm down — blood pressure is a serious thing. Besides, if you require every comment on this blog to be based on substantial field research, reading of the relevant literature, talking to the relevant people, and thorough reflexion you would soon be lonely.
The ethical poverty of sufficiency democracy
What democracy?
Attacking Thailand’s anti-Thaksin academics
Better a deeply flawed democracy than a shiny new gun barrel.
Scum of the earth
I’m pretty sure the Burmese Junta promised a constitution and a timetable and pathway back to democracy too. They’ve been promising for about 30 years now.
Sovereign Myth
3) Thailand is generally agreed to have an incredibly bloated military, especially at the top level; it has far more generals than any other military of its size. Appointment to the rank of general is at the king’s discretion. They cost a lot, even when they aren’t leading coups. Then again, ever since Sarit the military have hid behind HMK’s robes and used him as a puppet, so perhaps this last isn’t his fault.
To be deposed by a popular uprising, you have to be unpopular. This was not the case for Thaksin, for very good reasons. The government is not a bicycle and the general public are not children! This kind of paternalist metaphor is completely unhelpful.
Sovereign Myth
“there have been no concrete examples of HMK diverting grand funds from State to his own personal investments ”
1) the Siam Central Bank and various other companies owned by the Crown Property Bureau were the first to be bailed out by the state (the taxpayer) when the currency crisis hit, despite their longstanding record of sub standard and corrupt banking and business practices. No such largesse was forthcoming to all the workers who lost their jobs.
2) There has never been any independent oversight, auditing, etc of the many many millions spent on the various “Royal sufficiency, royal agriculture, New Economic Plan, etc” projects. No one would dare. As a result no-one knows if they actually work.
The ethical poverty of sufficiency democracy
Of course, “you can have democracy as long as vote the way we tell you to” isn’t unique to Thailand. Describes most recent US foreign policy.
The security state
It would be nice if anti-corruption could proceed from the top down. The problem is that anti-corruption agencies in developing (and many developed) countries are usually demoralised, starved of funds, marginalised, etc by the governments they are supposed to monitor. Going straight to the top is more likely to result in the agency or those within it being punished than effective change occurring.
The practice in development circles these days is to strengthen anti-corruption watchdogs to go after the little fish first. This creates a success record which generates internal morale, experience, favourable publicity and support (at least in public) from the politicians as well as the general public. The watchdogs can then start working their way up the food chain.
The idea is similar to New York’s “zero tolerance” policy that some credit for the reduction in major crime. This is also known as the “broken window” effect; criminals who see that minor crimes (eg breaking a window) go unpunished and unfixed are emboldened to commit bigger crimes. Broken windows, while minor in themselves, send a message that a state of lawlessness prevails.
Attacking Thailand’s anti-Thaksin academics
Come on . . . all you NM bloggers keep regurgitating the same old trite plaint that the Thai middle class and academics had abandoned Thai democracy that allowed the generals to take over just because of “jealousy or hatred’ of Thaksin. What rubbish!
None of you NM bloggers, including academics Andrew Walker or Nicholas Farrely had been able to educate me on how you all see the Thaksin dead-end democracy playing out, other than via a coup (pro-Thaksin coup or anti). Had we NOT seen this very moronic dead-end democracy played out elsewhere before (Philippines for one) with the coup as the only recourse to stop the rot and stop the corrupt leader??
Historicus keep on giving me the colonel rank so I accept. Since I outrank Pol. Lt. Col. Thaksin Shinawatra, can I extra-judicially shoot Thaksin on sight just for the pleasure?
Observing an electoral fiction
Restorationist: You should worry more about the blind eye that the electorate turns to wrongdoings – if that eye was opened there would have been no chance of a coup.
Play the partisan game if you want, but I would prefer for the groundwork to be laid such that coups would no longer be considered necessary or possible.
Aviation safety
I tried to go to the Thai Flight Simulator website but couldn’t understand their discussion since most of it are in thai characters.
Attacking Thailand’s anti-Thaksin academics
Jeru seems to have chosen the “And-Carthago-must-be-destroyed” approach — in its Thai version, “Thaksin ok pai” (was rather loud around Government House…).
Sovereign Myth
Societal formations do not implode or explode this easily. Using figurative expressions are not always that helpful. But sure will there be a void, and one might ask who or what might try to fill it.
Attacking Thailand’s anti-Thaksin academics
Ah Col jeru at his best and worst. Name-calling and elitism. The idea seems to be that if you yell loud enough people will listen and if you say it enough you will convince the disbelievers.
Sovereign Myth
jeru asks if “After HMK Bhumibhol, will Thailand implode because there will be no more ‘unifying’ father symbol?” Good question, but seriously, if this king and his advisers and their military allies had worked to develop a real constitutional democracy, this wouldn’t be a question that would need to be asked.
Observing an electoral fiction
My question was about your blind eye. You seem to justify ignoring the military junta’s and palace’s machinations on the basis that Thaksin was bad, the king will die and the rural masses are blind. Your position exonerates the palace-directed elite manipulating the political system in their own interests. Isn’t that what you accuse Thaksin of doing (amongst other sins)?
Attacking Thailand’s anti-Thaksin academics
Is that how to describe what New Mandala commentators like Andrew Walker have been doing all this time – – – – “masturbating your academic knowledge” to defend Thaksin’s deeply flawed democracy?
Come on stop this b.s. about the Thai poor being disenfranchised. Those poor who sold their votes deserve to be disenfranchised. But those poor vilage voters who were intimidated (and there was intimidation . . “take this money and vote for xxxx, or a bullet is the alternative”) by their kamnans have been saved.
I am grateful Thaksin the danger had been removed. Too bad his removal was done extra-constitutionally, yet, I believe keeping Thaksin longer was putting Thailand in even more grave danger.
Scum of the earth
Dickie: B-B-but… but, yes, it does sound rather sufficient…, although the Tuk Tuk is probably Japanese.
Scum of the earth
Srithanonchai,
B-b-but the Thai people already have developed everything on their own!
their own law –> where in the world can people running for elections pledge to overturn the law (ie Samak) or create their own laws (ie coup). This is a Thai-style phenomena.
their own medicine –> I never knew that ‘ya mong’ was a cure all cream. Lets not forget the aab ob nuad method to cure stress…
their own science –> who needs r&d or government spending on science when you got jatukam ramathep?
their own technology –> TUK TUK, AMULETS produciton in aeroplanes.
Sovereign Myth
In the case of Thailand, I would probably talk about the virtue of patience.
One should not even suggest topping 60+years of goodwill, even based on the strong foundations of democracy. Many people I notice on these boards give good and strong pros and cons on the status of Thai society and its acceptance with the total chaos that democracy can bring. One of it being a peoples uprising against Thaksin (much bloodier than a military coup).
I also find it comical that such smart, rational, and disciplined people like the Thais can also (and often the same people) be blind with emotions and superstitions.
As such, I feel that Democratic Institutions require failure for them to be strengthened.
HMK is great because of how he has ruled for 60 years. If he was unjust or indulgent he would never build the love and respect of the great majority of Thai people (as I don’t believe in absolutes, I won’t say all, also Thaksin is definately not a lover of HMK). You can fool most of the people some of the time, but you can’t fool most of the people most of the time, no matter how unjust the lese majeste laws might be.
Furthermore, though there is some talk about HMK curtailing Democratic reform, these has been no concrete examples of HMK diverting grand funds from State to his own personal investments or HMK being frugal with taxpayers money as opposed to say Thaksin Shinawatra. I’d say that HMK has is the beacon of all the great things of Thai culture, and at worst has been too paternalistic about democracy. The best analogy I guess is that he’s too worried to take the training wheels off the bike because he feels his child will fall and get hurt. I know how that feels because I fell off a bike in my first try and required 7 stitches!
But I would probably argue that patience and restraint are among the best virtues of Thai people. I would’ve preferred Thaksin to be gone through a popular uprising, that would’ve truly planted strengthened democratic institutions in the country with amendments protecting minority rights and curtailing executive power. But I also understand that this is not really what an 80 year old man nearing the end of his life would’ve wanted to see his life dedication and work (which he did honestly and ethically, with human mistakes along the way) suddenly transform into a state of chaos.
Hence patience and restraint for a popular democratic society is, in my humble opinion, the best way forward for Thailand right now. Democracy activists are better off working with grass root activism for now. I don’t honestly think Thailand will be ready for full-blown democracy, sad to say, till HMK is no longer with us. Pity that 2 amazing things have to be mutually exclusive.