Will wearing a Manchester City shirt in Bangkok suddenly become a sign of dissent? haha.. the antithesis to the yellow shirt.
If the bid doesn’t go through, Man City will get relegated. They’ve lost Distin and Barton (although maybe that isn’t such a loss) and the spine of the team doesn’t look like being strengthened because they won’t appoint a manager in time for the new season now that Ranieiri has gone to Juventus!
I think the intention of Thaksin to buy Man City speaks volumes about the man. Just like Abramovich who bought Chelsea with questionable oil tax breaks (big fuss about that too before the purchase), Thaksin attempts to purchase Man City in a similar way! Fantastic!
“You are being used, and the funniest thing is, you are paying them to use you.”
Well, if that is the case, it is probably because Thailand is such a nice place to live. Market prices are determined by supply and demand. Yes, that is funny, but in a nice sort of way.
How much does the conference cost anyway? That info is not on the site. I seem to remember 8,000 baht, definitely too high for someone working in Thailand.
I would submit a paper, but it is not clear if it would fit in or not. My current research deals with political and cultural interaction in the Tai Frontier Zone between Ming China and Southeast Asia (c. 1350-1650), I’m currently looking specifically at precious stones and metals, contention over and extraction of these resources, their incorporation into religious and sumptuary objects at court, their role in court and religious ritual, using Burmese texts and inscriptions, which might be relevant to these topics:
* Tai as Transnationalized Studies
* Thai History in Global Contexts
You misunderstand how the system works. Of course there will be no problem for foreign academics talking about, even criticizing the monarchy at the ICTS. The conference will be a showcase of how benevolent and committed to free speech and the principles of academic inquiry the king is, especially for the foreign academics, to whom, after all, the king has much to be thankful, for all the support they have given his regime over the years, and especially over this past, difficult year. Thanks SOAS and U. Washington for hosting Sondhi Limthongkul and the CNS propaganda teams; thanks ANU and UNDP academics for giving international credibility to my sufficiency theory. Thanks all those who have highlighted my role as a democratizing institution in journal articles and media interviews. Thanks all you academics for demonizing Thaksin and his elected government over the last 5 years, and thanks for leaving my political and economic activities almost completely unexamined. Thanks for your silence after the coup and for making me appear invisible. After all you have done for me the least I can do is to allow you to let off some steam at the International Thai Studies gala festival. We Thais know well how you Western academics love to criticize our politics and our culture, but we are a tolerant people. That is part of our national uniqueness, you know. But hopefully this conference will help you foreigners to understand us a little better, in this most auspicious year.
For all those foreign academics, grad. students and others attending the ICTS who may already be feeling that thrill of excitement at the prospect that you are going to transgress the biggest taboo of Thai Studies and somehow “make a difference”, forget it. You are being used, and the funniest thing is, you are paying them to use you.
But if you can, as you deliver your transgressive-subversive paper, just spare a thought for the 60% of the Thai electorate whose government was stolen from them and whose party has been liquidated at the barrel of a gun, all in the name of the person in whose honor the ICTS is being organized. Unlike for you foreign academics, for them it is impossible to even hint at the things that you will be talking about in your papers.
to 21 Jan: Yes, I thought Republcan would have liked it – thats why I specifically said ‘another obscenely wealthy person’.
I still think there is more scope to educate the rural masses than the middle classes, and today’s ABAC poll in the Bangkok Post seems to back me up:
A opinion poll which concludes Bangkok people don’t really believe honesty is always the best policy shows a worrying decline in the morality of Thai society, Deputy Prime Minister Paiboon Wattanasiritham said yesterday.
The Abac Poll surveyed 2,506 people in Bangkok and nearby provinces and found that more than 70% of them were ready to ”accept” a corrupt government if it would improve their own well-being.
The results were released yesterday, a day after Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont addressed the nation in a TV broadcast, calling on all Thais to help rid the country of corrupt politicians.
Sponsored by the government’s Centre for the Promotion of National Strength on Moral Ethics and Value, the survey was aimed at examining the morality of Thai people.
Worryingly, the poll also found that 90% of the respondents accepted that they were more afraid of losing money-making opportunities than anything else.
About 83% said they were even ready to violate social regulations if necessary.
Generally, men were less moral than women, while the morality of youths aged 18-20 was lower than the other age groups, the Assumption University poll concluded. When educational background was taken into consideration, the survey showed that people with only high school or high vocational level education were morally better than those with a higher education.
The survey had focused on the six indicators important for monitoring morality _ discipline, responsibility, honesty, conscience, diligence and acts of giving.
Mr Paiboon, the minister for social development and human security, said the survey’s findings will be used as a tool for addressing and tackling problems associated with morality.
”Its findings that a majority of people can accept corruption is worrying. It shows how people look at things with a narrow perspective and short-sightedness, which is dangerous,” he said.
Corruption, he said, can be poisonous in the long term, even for people who have benefited from it. It will finally lead to social and economic decline.
”An influential figure may use corruption as a means to build up his popularity and make people feel they are better off with more money in their pockets, but that’s not sustainable. A strong foundation for social and economic growth only comes from true goodness,” he said.
The government has already approved the National Morality Promotion Bill, which would enable it to build a more responsible society.
In order to speed up the process, the cabinet also plans to issue a Prime Minister’s Office regulation to encourage moral behaviour in every government agency.
Narathip Phumsap, director of the centre, said seven more surveys will be conducted in the same areas as well as in 18 other provinces to get a comprehensive view of the situation.
wordwallah, according to the World Bank and Transparency International, Thailand improved substantially in its ability to combat corruption under Thaksin. None of Thaksin’s cabinet ministers were ever convicted, and parliamentary no-confidenece debates never revealed any substantial evidence of wrong doing. Post-coup prosecuters have struggled to find wronged parties for their kangaroo cases.
# 25: “They need to realise that another obscenely wealthy person is (or was) not going to be their salvation, and the main game of obscenely wealthy individuals is not about helping the rural masses but all about helping themselves/family/friends.”
That could also be said by Republican – so obscenity is just in the eye of the beholder (although I have to admid that BOTH are obscene wealthy)
And I really doubt the statement about the educated middle-class – especially concerning democracy they could take some extra lessons.
Andrew Walker your concern about different strokes for different folks have just been recently put to rest.
“Assets Examination Committee (AEC) ruled on Monday to freeze assets of ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his associates on charges of policy corruption and malfeasance.” – 6:30PM May 10th news.
I sincerely hope Andrew Walker that any wrongs you still harbor have been ‘sufficiently’ redressed.
Historicus – I’ll give you a hint: The elite and middle class are already educated and they know what they are doing.
I see more hope in trying to educate the masses that things will not get better if they keep rewarding corrupt politicians with their votes.
They need to realise that another obscenely wealthy person is (or was) not going to be their salvation, and the main game of obscenely wealthy individuals is not about helping the rural masses but all about helping themselves/family/friends.
“…the answer must lie somewhere between the two extremes…”
I think there is a lot more promise in OTOP than the dismissal it is given in the Chalongphob paper (p. 116) not to mention its indirect effects of making people think more entrepreneurially which certainly makes the nation stronger. Small scale entrepreurship is not given as much respect as a research topic in Thai universities as it should have.
But IMHO Markets are certainly not the solution for everything. Non-sellable land for poor people, permanent non-alienable rights for the family in perpetuity, the way land tenure often worked in the pre-modern period, often works better even now than having the family mortgage the land and then lose it to some rich merchant who accumulates piles of deeds held for the long-term, speculating on future appreciation, but not getting as much value out of the land for human and animal life support purposes. But this is not a new problem, alas.
More worrying is that grassroots borrowers now appear to expect that the government will always come in and write off their debt if they cannot service it themselves. Cases of mobs demanding debt forgiveness (and getting it) are becoming regular events.
One could apply the same criteria to large corporate debtors. An issue of moral hazard arises there as well. A number of corporate entities borrowed billions of USD, backed by personal guarantees, in a much greater scale than rural people. Debts have been written off. Can’t we also say that large politically connected and influential businesses
One could also say they have their own mob, given Sondhi’s personal corporate debts and the debts of some of his backers (Prachai of TPI).
I think there needs to be some coherent policy on which debt should be written off and it should not just come about to pacify protesters otherwise you create an incentive for people to protest. Although, I am mindful of the fact that without protests no one will actually look at the matter (why when there are other pressing issues).
But I don’t see how you can justify forgiving large amounts of corporate debt and then not look at others in society? Ask the Democrat Party, I think they learned their lesson on this issue.
But Anek fears the risks are massive. The people become dependent on state handouts. The bureaucracy is politicized. The economy dives into the same kind of economic crises as populist Latin America. Society is sharply divided between the lower-class who benefit from populism, and the middle and upper classes who have to pay for it.
The village fund wasn’t a state handout though, they were loans, as Andrew has detailed. Thai bureaucracy becoming politicized? It always has been, they support themselves with their little fiefdoms.
I am just wondering in which western society, do the middle class and the upper classes not pay for the poor in some way?
supposedly centre left party (Democrats) : a lot of center, and nothing left; if they had been, no TRT
Chalongphob: He is probably right, but the government he belongs to has also made the experience that it is easier to give in to protestors than resisting them — in the South.
nganadeeleg : Apologies, but I don’t follow your response. Is it that the whole system is corrupt so education is a waste of time? Or is it that the elite and middle class are not able to be re-eductaed, but the masses are? Or is it something else?
I am still wondering that if political education is possible, where is it going to come from? The inadequate school system? The now highly controlled media that produces almost no political news and feeds the people a diet of propaganda about the government, the military and the obscenely wealthy royals and their obsequious minions?
Jon – good points, but the answer must lie somewhere between the two extremes – the poor need a leg up (even a fair go in the legal system and a decent safety net would be an improvement ), but the middle class should not be taxed out of existence.
Finance Minister Chalongphob in Asian Economic Policy Review on the “moral hazard” problem of rural debt (June, 2007):
“More worrying is that grassroots borrowers now appear to expect that the government will always come in and write off their debt if they cannot service it themselves. Cases of mobs demanding debt forgiveness (and getting it) are becoming regular events. In October 2005, more than 5 000 farmers marched in the government house area to demand debt relief. A week or so later, the government approved a debt restructuring scheme covering more than 50 000 farmers. In April 2006, another 2 500 farmers marched on the Ministry of Agriculture demanding debt relief, again the government rewarded them with what they demanded. These scenarios are very worrying. There is a risk of a loss of financial discipline in the whole system if the government continues to forever pursue a policy of pushing out credit and then forgiving debt. If this becomes the norm, then there is no reason to be prudent with any borrowing or investment. Although the current problem is still relatively limited in scope, from the lesson of the crisis, this kind of situation should never have been allowed to happen, let alone brought about by government policy.” http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1748-3131.2007.00055.x
Chang Noi citing Anek Laothomas:
“In his book, Thaksina-prachaniyom (Thaksin-style populism) Anek worries that Thaksin could be a signal of even worse to come. Thaksin gave people things they wanted, and was rewarded with massive support at the polls. Even if Thaksin and TRT vanish from Thailand’s political map, this populism will stay. Other leaders will copy it. Once one party offers people the moon, then its rivals must offer the moon and the stars. But Anek fears the risks are massive. The people become dependent on state handouts. The bureaucracy is politicized. The economy dives into the same kind of economic crises as populist Latin America. Society is sharply divided between the lower-class who benefit from populism, and the middle and upper classes who have to pay for it.” http://www.geocities.com/changnoi2/prophet.htm
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Thai Studies Conference: The extended deadline
Jon: Can you confirm the registration fee? 8,000 baht would be well beyond my financial means.
Football and the freeze
Didn’t Thaksin call “football” “soccer”? Eeee…
Football and the freeze
Will wearing a Manchester City shirt in Bangkok suddenly become a sign of dissent? haha.. the antithesis to the yellow shirt.
If the bid doesn’t go through, Man City will get relegated. They’ve lost Distin and Barton (although maybe that isn’t such a loss) and the spine of the team doesn’t look like being strengthened because they won’t appoint a manager in time for the new season now that Ranieiri has gone to Juventus!
I think the intention of Thaksin to buy Man City speaks volumes about the man. Just like Abramovich who bought Chelsea with questionable oil tax breaks (big fuss about that too before the purchase), Thaksin attempts to purchase Man City in a similar way! Fantastic!
Thai Studies Conference: The extended deadline
“You are being used, and the funniest thing is, you are paying them to use you.”
Well, if that is the case, it is probably because Thailand is such a nice place to live. Market prices are determined by supply and demand. Yes, that is funny, but in a nice sort of way.
How much does the conference cost anyway? That info is not on the site. I seem to remember 8,000 baht, definitely too high for someone working in Thailand.
Thai Studies Conference: The extended deadline
I would submit a paper, but it is not clear if it would fit in or not. My current research deals with political and cultural interaction in the Tai Frontier Zone between Ming China and Southeast Asia (c. 1350-1650), I’m currently looking specifically at precious stones and metals, contention over and extraction of these resources, their incorporation into religious and sumptuary objects at court, their role in court and religious ritual, using Burmese texts and inscriptions, which might be relevant to these topics:
* Tai as Transnationalized Studies
* Thai History in Global Contexts
But then again, it might not.
Thai Studies Conference: The extended deadline
You misunderstand how the system works. Of course there will be no problem for foreign academics talking about, even criticizing the monarchy at the ICTS. The conference will be a showcase of how benevolent and committed to free speech and the principles of academic inquiry the king is, especially for the foreign academics, to whom, after all, the king has much to be thankful, for all the support they have given his regime over the years, and especially over this past, difficult year. Thanks SOAS and U. Washington for hosting Sondhi Limthongkul and the CNS propaganda teams; thanks ANU and UNDP academics for giving international credibility to my sufficiency theory. Thanks all those who have highlighted my role as a democratizing institution in journal articles and media interviews. Thanks all you academics for demonizing Thaksin and his elected government over the last 5 years, and thanks for leaving my political and economic activities almost completely unexamined. Thanks for your silence after the coup and for making me appear invisible. After all you have done for me the least I can do is to allow you to let off some steam at the International Thai Studies gala festival. We Thais know well how you Western academics love to criticize our politics and our culture, but we are a tolerant people. That is part of our national uniqueness, you know. But hopefully this conference will help you foreigners to understand us a little better, in this most auspicious year.
For all those foreign academics, grad. students and others attending the ICTS who may already be feeling that thrill of excitement at the prospect that you are going to transgress the biggest taboo of Thai Studies and somehow “make a difference”, forget it. You are being used, and the funniest thing is, you are paying them to use you.
But if you can, as you deliver your transgressive-subversive paper, just spare a thought for the 60% of the Thai electorate whose government was stolen from them and whose party has been liquidated at the barrel of a gun, all in the name of the person in whose honor the ICTS is being organized. Unlike for you foreign academics, for them it is impossible to even hint at the things that you will be talking about in your papers.
Thai Studies Conference: The extended deadline
Let’s wait and see. Some good panels on the monarchy have been submitted.
Thai Studies Conference: The extended deadline
Hmm, any chance some brave souls might dare to talk about the monarchy?
Naww, probably not — why start now after 60 years?
Will rural voters be “confused to death”?
to 21 Jan: Yes, I thought Republcan would have liked it – thats why I specifically said ‘another obscenely wealthy person’.
I still think there is more scope to educate the rural masses than the middle classes, and today’s ABAC poll in the Bangkok Post seems to back me up:
A opinion poll which concludes Bangkok people don’t really believe honesty is always the best policy shows a worrying decline in the morality of Thai society, Deputy Prime Minister Paiboon Wattanasiritham said yesterday.
The Abac Poll surveyed 2,506 people in Bangkok and nearby provinces and found that more than 70% of them were ready to ”accept” a corrupt government if it would improve their own well-being.
The results were released yesterday, a day after Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont addressed the nation in a TV broadcast, calling on all Thais to help rid the country of corrupt politicians.
Sponsored by the government’s Centre for the Promotion of National Strength on Moral Ethics and Value, the survey was aimed at examining the morality of Thai people.
Worryingly, the poll also found that 90% of the respondents accepted that they were more afraid of losing money-making opportunities than anything else.
About 83% said they were even ready to violate social regulations if necessary.
Generally, men were less moral than women, while the morality of youths aged 18-20 was lower than the other age groups, the Assumption University poll concluded.
When educational background was taken into consideration, the survey showed that people with only high school or high vocational level education were morally better than those with a higher education.
The survey had focused on the six indicators important for monitoring morality _ discipline, responsibility, honesty, conscience, diligence and acts of giving.
Mr Paiboon, the minister for social development and human security, said the survey’s findings will be used as a tool for addressing and tackling problems associated with morality.
”Its findings that a majority of people can accept corruption is worrying. It shows how people look at things with a narrow perspective and short-sightedness, which is dangerous,” he said.
Corruption, he said, can be poisonous in the long term, even for people who have benefited from it. It will finally lead to social and economic decline.
”An influential figure may use corruption as a means to build up his popularity and make people feel they are better off with more money in their pockets, but that’s not sustainable. A strong foundation for social and economic growth only comes from true goodness,” he said.
The government has already approved the National Morality Promotion Bill, which would enable it to build a more responsible society.
In order to speed up the process, the cabinet also plans to issue a Prime Minister’s Office regulation to encourage moral behaviour in every government agency.
Narathip Phumsap, director of the centre, said seven more surveys will be conducted in the same areas as well as in 18 other provinces to get a comprehensive view of the situation.
Erasing Thaksin’s “anomalies”
wordwallah, according to the World Bank and Transparency International, Thailand improved substantially in its ability to combat corruption under Thaksin. None of Thaksin’s cabinet ministers were ever convicted, and parliamentary no-confidenece debates never revealed any substantial evidence of wrong doing. Post-coup prosecuters have struggled to find wronged parties for their kangaroo cases.
Will rural voters be “confused to death”?
# 25: “They need to realise that another obscenely wealthy person is (or was) not going to be their salvation, and the main game of obscenely wealthy individuals is not about helping the rural masses but all about helping themselves/family/friends.”
That could also be said by Republican – so obscenity is just in the eye of the beholder (although I have to admid that BOTH are obscene wealthy)
And I really doubt the statement about the educated middle-class – especially concerning democracy they could take some extra lessons.
One rule for the rich …
Andrew Walker your concern about different strokes for different folks have just been recently put to rest.
“Assets Examination Committee (AEC) ruled on Monday to freeze assets of ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his associates on charges of policy corruption and malfeasance.” – 6:30PM May 10th news.
I sincerely hope Andrew Walker that any wrongs you still harbor have been ‘sufficiently’ redressed.
Will rural voters be “confused to death”?
Historicus – I’ll give you a hint: The elite and middle class are already educated and they know what they are doing.
I see more hope in trying to educate the masses that things will not get better if they keep rewarding corrupt politicians with their votes.
They need to realise that another obscenely wealthy person is (or was) not going to be their salvation, and the main game of obscenely wealthy individuals is not about helping the rural masses but all about helping themselves/family/friends.
Will rural voters be “confused to death”?
“…the answer must lie somewhere between the two extremes…”
I think there is a lot more promise in OTOP than the dismissal it is given in the Chalongphob paper (p. 116) not to mention its indirect effects of making people think more entrepreneurially which certainly makes the nation stronger. Small scale entrepreurship is not given as much respect as a research topic in Thai universities as it should have.
But IMHO Markets are certainly not the solution for everything. Non-sellable land for poor people, permanent non-alienable rights for the family in perpetuity, the way land tenure often worked in the pre-modern period, often works better even now than having the family mortgage the land and then lose it to some rich merchant who accumulates piles of deeds held for the long-term, speculating on future appreciation, but not getting as much value out of the land for human and animal life support purposes. But this is not a new problem, alas.
Will rural voters be “confused to death”?
More worrying is that grassroots borrowers now appear to expect that the government will always come in and write off their debt if they cannot service it themselves. Cases of mobs demanding debt forgiveness (and getting it) are becoming regular events.
One could apply the same criteria to large corporate debtors. An issue of moral hazard arises there as well. A number of corporate entities borrowed billions of USD, backed by personal guarantees, in a much greater scale than rural people. Debts have been written off. Can’t we also say that large politically connected and influential businesses
One could also say they have their own mob, given Sondhi’s personal corporate debts and the debts of some of his backers (Prachai of TPI).
I think there needs to be some coherent policy on which debt should be written off and it should not just come about to pacify protesters otherwise you create an incentive for people to protest. Although, I am mindful of the fact that without protests no one will actually look at the matter (why when there are other pressing issues).
But I don’t see how you can justify forgiving large amounts of corporate debt and then not look at others in society? Ask the Democrat Party, I think they learned their lesson on this issue.
But Anek fears the risks are massive. The people become dependent on state handouts. The bureaucracy is politicized. The economy dives into the same kind of economic crises as populist Latin America. Society is sharply divided between the lower-class who benefit from populism, and the middle and upper classes who have to pay for it.
The village fund wasn’t a state handout though, they were loans, as Andrew has detailed. Thai bureaucracy becoming politicized? It always has been, they support themselves with their little fiefdoms.
I am just wondering in which western society, do the middle class and the upper classes not pay for the poor in some way?
Will rural voters be “confused to death”?
supposedly centre left party (Democrats) : a lot of center, and nothing left; if they had been, no TRT
Chalongphob: He is probably right, but the government he belongs to has also made the experience that it is easier to give in to protestors than resisting them — in the South.
Will rural voters be “confused to death”?
nganadeeleg : Apologies, but I don’t follow your response. Is it that the whole system is corrupt so education is a waste of time? Or is it that the elite and middle class are not able to be re-eductaed, but the masses are? Or is it something else?
I am still wondering that if political education is possible, where is it going to come from? The inadequate school system? The now highly controlled media that produces almost no political news and feeds the people a diet of propaganda about the government, the military and the obscenely wealthy royals and their obsequious minions?
Will rural voters be “confused to death”?
Jon – good points, but the answer must lie somewhere between the two extremes – the poor need a leg up (even a fair go in the legal system and a decent safety net would be an improvement ), but the middle class should not be taxed out of existence.
Will rural voters be “confused to death”?
Finance Minister Chalongphob in Asian Economic Policy Review on the “moral hazard” problem of rural debt (June, 2007):
“More worrying is that grassroots borrowers now appear to expect that the government will always come in and write off their debt if they cannot service it themselves. Cases of mobs demanding debt forgiveness (and getting it) are becoming regular events. In October 2005, more than 5 000 farmers marched in the government house area to demand debt relief. A week or so later, the government approved a debt restructuring scheme covering more than 50 000 farmers. In April 2006, another 2 500 farmers marched on the Ministry of Agriculture demanding debt relief, again the government rewarded them with what they demanded. These scenarios are very worrying. There is a risk of a loss of financial discipline in the whole system if the government continues to forever pursue a policy of pushing out credit and then forgiving debt. If this becomes the norm, then there is no reason to be prudent with any borrowing or investment. Although the current problem is still relatively limited in scope, from the lesson of the crisis, this kind of situation should never have been allowed to happen, let alone brought about by government policy.”
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1748-3131.2007.00055.x
Chang Noi citing Anek Laothomas:
“In his book, Thaksina-prachaniyom (Thaksin-style populism) Anek worries that Thaksin could be a signal of even worse to come. Thaksin gave people things they wanted, and was rewarded with massive support at the polls. Even if Thaksin and TRT vanish from Thailand’s political map, this populism will stay. Other leaders will copy it. Once one party offers people the moon, then its rivals must offer the moon and the stars. But Anek fears the risks are massive. The people become dependent on state handouts. The bureaucracy is politicized. The economy dives into the same kind of economic crises as populist Latin America. Society is sharply divided between the lower-class who benefit from populism, and the middle and upper classes who have to pay for it.”
http://www.geocities.com/changnoi2/prophet.htm
Erasing Thaksin’s “anomalies”
“Most of them seem to become seduced by the pomp and ceremony of the Palace, or even worse, by “Thai culture”, ie. feudalism
They seem less dangerous to me than those that are seduced by Thaksin.