“And there you have Ladies and Gentleman democracy when its given unreservedly to the masses. Surely there should be some sort of basic exam before voting is given out to people who don’t even understand what the Senate is.
Same applies to Western democracy too. People are tested to drive cars, why not before they vote?“
Wouldn’t my New Sakdina system be a whole lot easier?
Answer to Srithanonchai (comment 1): yes, he explicitely refused to answer the question based, if I heard correctly, on his claim that we were on “different ontological planes.”
“Thai Rak Thai was not quite a normal political party but more a cult-like political movement based on unconditional belief in the leader. Its operations were based on populist nationalist sentiment and political chauvinism”
Great description – I wonder which of Thaksin’s attributes led to that unconditional belief?
I never had that unconditional belief, but it is my guess that it did not come from his Integrity or Intellect, and was more related to his Wealth with a bit of Arrogance, Greed & Superstition thrown in for good measure.
If the prospects for continued Thaksin rule were so bad why wouldn’t the electorate have thrown him out?
Good question, but it probably says more about the attributes of the electorate, than those of Thaksin.
I cannot say it any better than Charles Frith said over at Bangkok Pundits site:
“And there you have Ladies and Gentleman democracy when its given unreservedly to the masses. Surely there should be some sort of basic exam before voting is given out to people who don’t even understand what the Senate is.
Same applies to Western democracy too. People are tested to drive cars, why not before they vote?“
These pictures are really cool Warren! Wonder if any of those scooters actually appear in Halpern’s slides…heh heh! Maybe sometime I’ll bring my wife and two daughters for one of these pilgrimages.
Cheers,
Bret
Thanks to New Mandala for doing such a great job with the fresh perspectives and ongoing discussion. Like a previous commentator, I am somewhat of a “failed academic”–moreso a recent refugee from doctoral studies, mainly due to Lao visa troubles and, more importantly, the birth of not one but two children! As a sleep deprived young parent, reading all of your blogs has been a great way to stay plugged into what’s going on in Southeast Asia, and thankfully in a way that avoids the shallowness that sometimes passes as news.
looks like fun all that way to vietnam and not to many problems.thanks for the warm lous hospitally and friendly welcome when i came to vientiane yours shawn formerly nasc
I like the hoary old accusation that neo-colonialist Western academics don’t understand or are arrogantly biased against the monarchy. I suggest that Dr. Surin just makes a couple of clicks on his mouse and has a look at some of the Thai political discussion blogs. There he will find a rapidly mushrooming number of republicans and not an insignificant number of Jacobins among them – and people who probably have never even heard of Handley. They are making far more serious accusations than Handley and most other Western academics at this moment, especially about the incident that brought the king to the throne, which Handley brushes over with remarkably little comment. In fact, over all, as I have argued before, I would say that the Western academic establishment in Thai Studies has been every bit as, if not MORE, loyal than their Thai counterparts, but WITHOUT the excuse that the Thai academics have – their Western colleagues do not work under the threat of lese majeste. (Which, by the way, makes the spectacle of Western academics doing “serious” research into the viability of the “sufficiency theory” even more comical).
“Stabilising force”? – well, Stalin, Suharto, Saddam, Mugabe, etc. can all be seen as stabilizing forces. It helps when you have the military, bureaucracy, judiciary under your control, a personality cult promoted by the state, massive financial resources, control of the media and total censorship of any criticism. The point being? “Self-correcting” is also problematic. When things start to go against the monarchy it is true that the king will “correct” the situation, not by himself but with the help of the military, paramilitaries (in the past), and now the judiciary.
The point, as one well-known THAI academic frequently points out, is this: if one is to talk about how the democratically elected Thaksin “manipulated” democratic institutions (through the “politicization” of the rural population – ie. letting them vote for their government), why the silence about how the unelected royalist-bureaucratic network manipulates these institutions, and has done so long before Thaksin? Why the criticism of Thaksin – who CAN be and has been publically criticised (but has been denied the right of reply over the last 9 months) – but the silence vis-a-vis the monarchy, which can’t, by law? And from an academic who does not work in Thailand and so is not bound by lese majeste?
Re. the dissolution of Thai Rak Thai by the Constitutional Tribunal did Surin mention how the decision has made a mockery of the Thai legal system, a story which even Thai Rath carried on its front page today?
I find it surprising that despite the many critical comments regarding the other “anomalies”, nobody questioned the claim that Thaksin was disloyal to the King.
In a monarchy (even a democratic constitutional monarchy), disloyalty to the King is either the worst form of slander or, by itself, sufficient reason to remove a government and try it for treason.
Yet smart critical people seem to accept this Finland Plan charge hook, line, and sinker – despite the complete lack of direct evidence or public debate.
I agree with Johnny Appleseed. This academic discussion of SE is giving it a credibility it simply does not deserve. A bit like the yellow shirt thing and foreigners adopting that and the right-wing ideology that goes along with it (BTW, one foreigner did tell me that he couldn’t see any govt officials unless he wore some yellow; not sure if this is widespread).
In Thailand, it is quite clear that SE is an ideological device to mark out the military-installed government as different from Thaksin.
The chief proponents and enforcers of the SE are the military and its govt, and there is remarkable pressure to get on board. That these wealthy members of the elite (with their Porshes, Ferraris, big and expensive houses on golf courses, holiday houses in the mountains and expensive watch collections) is sickening.
Obviously, there are a huge range of important issues raised by these comments. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to provide further information or clarification. This write-up basically exhausts my notes from the evening.
I would, however, like to invite any members of New Mandala’s global audience who can provide clarification of the many important issues that have been raised to get in contact with me.
Can Pirongrong, Charas, Surat, Surasee, Sulak or Kraisak provide a response to these critical comments? New Mandala would be very happy to host them.
What about SOAS? What are their plans for future events? Is it possible for Thaksin to be invited again? A public forum for his views on “Thailand after the coup” would, no doubt, be of much use to the Thailand-focussed academic community in the UK.
There are two draft laws, one on the local community assembly and another on national virtues and ethics assemblies. My remark refered to the latter.
The first act is not so much aimed against the MoI as it is against politics more generally, especially local politics and local government organizations. Sanitsuda Ekachai expresed this mindset in her column in today’s Bangkok Post:
” What to do when your political representatives are only interested in fattening their bank accounts while your community is torn apart by divisive money politics and bleeding from top-down policies that suck local resources to feed big business? What to do when your village heads and kamnans have become mere sidekicks of the district chiefs and governors, if not the canvassers of political parties?
For the 70,000 villages across the country, the answer cannot be found in the artificial political decentralisation through the Tambon Administration Organisations (TAOs).
Apart from being under tight state control regarding policy, administration and budgeting, the TAO elections are also dominated by fierce vote-buying, which is why the winners are intent on making money to recover their investment.”
Paiboon wants to create a non-political parallel and competing structure of state (Codi-)led “people’s organizations,” quite similar, it seems, to what the MoI’s community development department had been doing for decades, but with less political zeal. And since the number of local people who can participate in such groups is limited, CDD and Codi groups (and a host of other “volunteers” created by all sorts of state authorities) are often the same people.
A civil-society oriented approach would not establish such new structures but rather limit itself to encouraging people to organize themselves and provide the possibility for them to register as juristic persons. Moreover, if this exercise was only to make local authorities more accountable, there are other means available that won’t create new formal structures. And Paiboon and his assistents have even succeeded to put “local communities” (CDD’s community groups) into the draft constitution…
History never goes backwards. Re. the relationship of the military to the monarchy in Thailand, I’m reminded of Marx’s famous saying, “History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce”.
Taxi Driver, why do you presume that R.X will be a “he”? The future monarch might also be a female, in which case she will need the protection of guns and tanks, even though she is highly popular with the public.
Perhaps you could let us in on what you are talking about. Khun Paiboon’s main thrust at this point seems to be empowering local communities to peal back a slight amount of power fropm the Interior Ministry.
No need to fast forward that long Taxi Driver . . . Fast forward five weeks from now and you will hear that new Thai country singer Thaksin strumming his banjo trying to kill the junta with his out-of-tune very loud maudlin Hank Williams blues from a Manchester City bar . . . .
excerpts . . .
” . . .
I love to hear Thailandia when she calls me
Sweet dad-ad-ad-dy, such a beautiful dream
I hate to think it all o-o-ver
I’ve lost my heart it seems
I’ve grown so used to her some-how
Well, I’m nobody’s sugar- daddy now
And I’m lo-on-lonesome
I got the lovesick blu-ues.”
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Erasing Thaksin’s “anomalies”
“And there you have Ladies and Gentleman democracy when its given unreservedly to the masses. Surely there should be some sort of basic exam before voting is given out to people who don’t even understand what the Senate is.
Same applies to Western democracy too. People are tested to drive cars, why not before they vote?“
Wouldn’t my New Sakdina system be a whole lot easier?
Erasing Thaksin’s “anomalies”
Answer to Srithanonchai (comment 1): yes, he explicitely refused to answer the question based, if I heard correctly, on his claim that we were on “different ontological planes.”
Erasing Thaksin’s “anomalies”
“Thai Rak Thai was not quite a normal political party but more a cult-like political movement based on unconditional belief in the leader. Its operations were based on populist nationalist sentiment and political chauvinism”
Great description – I wonder which of Thaksin’s attributes led to that unconditional belief?
I never had that unconditional belief, but it is my guess that it did not come from his Integrity or Intellect, and was more related to his Wealth with a bit of Arrogance, Greed & Superstition thrown in for good measure.
If the prospects for continued Thaksin rule were so bad why wouldn’t the electorate have thrown him out?
Good question, but it probably says more about the attributes of the electorate, than those of Thaksin.
I cannot say it any better than Charles Frith said over at Bangkok Pundits site:
“And there you have Ladies and Gentleman democracy when its given unreservedly to the masses. Surely there should be some sort of basic exam before voting is given out to people who don’t even understand what the Senate is.
Same applies to Western democracy too. People are tested to drive cars, why not before they vote?“
Lao explorers reach Vietnam on Italian Scooters
These pictures are really cool Warren! Wonder if any of those scooters actually appear in Halpern’s slides…heh heh! Maybe sometime I’ll bring my wife and two daughters for one of these pilgrimages.
Cheers,
Bret
The 500th post
Thanks to New Mandala for doing such a great job with the fresh perspectives and ongoing discussion. Like a previous commentator, I am somewhat of a “failed academic”–moreso a recent refugee from doctoral studies, mainly due to Lao visa troubles and, more importantly, the birth of not one but two children! As a sleep deprived young parent, reading all of your blogs has been a great way to stay plugged into what’s going on in Southeast Asia, and thankfully in a way that avoids the shallowness that sometimes passes as news.
Lao explorers reach Vietnam on Italian Scooters
looks like fun all that way to vietnam and not to many problems.thanks for the warm lous hospitally and friendly welcome when i came to vientiane yours shawn formerly nasc
Erasing Thaksin’s “anomalies”
I like the hoary old accusation that neo-colonialist Western academics don’t understand or are arrogantly biased against the monarchy. I suggest that Dr. Surin just makes a couple of clicks on his mouse and has a look at some of the Thai political discussion blogs. There he will find a rapidly mushrooming number of republicans and not an insignificant number of Jacobins among them – and people who probably have never even heard of Handley. They are making far more serious accusations than Handley and most other Western academics at this moment, especially about the incident that brought the king to the throne, which Handley brushes over with remarkably little comment. In fact, over all, as I have argued before, I would say that the Western academic establishment in Thai Studies has been every bit as, if not MORE, loyal than their Thai counterparts, but WITHOUT the excuse that the Thai academics have – their Western colleagues do not work under the threat of lese majeste. (Which, by the way, makes the spectacle of Western academics doing “serious” research into the viability of the “sufficiency theory” even more comical).
“Stabilising force”? – well, Stalin, Suharto, Saddam, Mugabe, etc. can all be seen as stabilizing forces. It helps when you have the military, bureaucracy, judiciary under your control, a personality cult promoted by the state, massive financial resources, control of the media and total censorship of any criticism. The point being? “Self-correcting” is also problematic. When things start to go against the monarchy it is true that the king will “correct” the situation, not by himself but with the help of the military, paramilitaries (in the past), and now the judiciary.
The point, as one well-known THAI academic frequently points out, is this: if one is to talk about how the democratically elected Thaksin “manipulated” democratic institutions (through the “politicization” of the rural population – ie. letting them vote for their government), why the silence about how the unelected royalist-bureaucratic network manipulates these institutions, and has done so long before Thaksin? Why the criticism of Thaksin – who CAN be and has been publically criticised (but has been denied the right of reply over the last 9 months) – but the silence vis-a-vis the monarchy, which can’t, by law? And from an academic who does not work in Thailand and so is not bound by lese majeste?
Re. the dissolution of Thai Rak Thai by the Constitutional Tribunal did Surin mention how the decision has made a mockery of the Thai legal system, a story which even Thai Rath carried on its front page today?
Erasing Thaksin’s “anomalies”
I find it surprising that despite the many critical comments regarding the other “anomalies”, nobody questioned the claim that Thaksin was disloyal to the King.
In a monarchy (even a democratic constitutional monarchy), disloyalty to the King is either the worst form of slander or, by itself, sufficient reason to remove a government and try it for treason.
Yet smart critical people seem to accept this Finland Plan charge hook, line, and sinker – despite the complete lack of direct evidence or public debate.
Sufficiency and the rich
Historicus, don’t you think that this is a problem of the elite all over the world? Your tone is quite patronizing.
Sufficiency and the rich
I agree with Johnny Appleseed. This academic discussion of SE is giving it a credibility it simply does not deserve. A bit like the yellow shirt thing and foreigners adopting that and the right-wing ideology that goes along with it (BTW, one foreigner did tell me that he couldn’t see any govt officials unless he wore some yellow; not sure if this is widespread).
In Thailand, it is quite clear that SE is an ideological device to mark out the military-installed government as different from Thaksin.
The chief proponents and enforcers of the SE are the military and its govt, and there is remarkable pressure to get on board. That these wealthy members of the elite (with their Porshes, Ferraris, big and expensive houses on golf courses, holiday houses in the mountains and expensive watch collections) is sickening.
Erasing Thaksin’s “anomalies”
“Somewhat surprisingly, Surin was not willing to answer the question.” >> Did he expressly reject to answer your question?
Report on SOAS event in London: “Thailand after the Coup”
Thanks for your input, everyone.
Obviously, there are a huge range of important issues raised by these comments. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to provide further information or clarification. This write-up basically exhausts my notes from the evening.
I would, however, like to invite any members of New Mandala’s global audience who can provide clarification of the many important issues that have been raised to get in contact with me.
Can Pirongrong, Charas, Surat, Surasee, Sulak or Kraisak provide a response to these critical comments? New Mandala would be very happy to host them.
What about SOAS? What are their plans for future events? Is it possible for Thaksin to be invited again? A public forum for his views on “Thailand after the coup” would, no doubt, be of much use to the Thailand-focussed academic community in the UK.
Best wishes to all,
NF
Thai politics seminar at ANU
[…] today’s ANU presentation by political scientist Surin Maisrikrod post-coup politics in Thailand was explored in terms of […]
Thai politics seminar at ANU
Observer,
There are two draft laws, one on the local community assembly and another on national virtues and ethics assemblies. My remark refered to the latter.
The first act is not so much aimed against the MoI as it is against politics more generally, especially local politics and local government organizations. Sanitsuda Ekachai expresed this mindset in her column in today’s Bangkok Post:
” What to do when your political representatives are only interested in fattening their bank accounts while your community is torn apart by divisive money politics and bleeding from top-down policies that suck local resources to feed big business? What to do when your village heads and kamnans have become mere sidekicks of the district chiefs and governors, if not the canvassers of political parties?
For the 70,000 villages across the country, the answer cannot be found in the artificial political decentralisation through the Tambon Administration Organisations (TAOs).
Apart from being under tight state control regarding policy, administration and budgeting, the TAO elections are also dominated by fierce vote-buying, which is why the winners are intent on making money to recover their investment.”
Paiboon wants to create a non-political parallel and competing structure of state (Codi-)led “people’s organizations,” quite similar, it seems, to what the MoI’s community development department had been doing for decades, but with less political zeal. And since the number of local people who can participate in such groups is limited, CDD and Codi groups (and a host of other “volunteers” created by all sorts of state authorities) are often the same people.
A civil-society oriented approach would not establish such new structures but rather limit itself to encouraging people to organize themselves and provide the possibility for them to register as juristic persons. Moreover, if this exercise was only to make local authorities more accountable, there are other means available that won’t create new formal structures. And Paiboon and his assistents have even succeeded to put “local communities” (CDD’s community groups) into the draft constitution…
Electoral sabotage bears rich fruit
History never goes backwards. Re. the relationship of the military to the monarchy in Thailand, I’m reminded of Marx’s famous saying, “History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce”.
Electoral sabotage bears rich fruit
and what song is Saprang and his friends singing, Jeru? some violence-laced rap that goes like this:
i am da man.
with my machine gun i am da man.
you stand in my way?
I spray.
I am da man,
born to rule,
with a surname like mine
i am too cool
i am da man,
defender of the throne.
all you dogs must submit
to this Kalayanamitr.
Electoral sabotage bears rich fruit
Taxi Driver, why do you presume that R.X will be a “he”? The future monarch might also be a female, in which case she will need the protection of guns and tanks, even though she is highly popular with the public.
Thai politics seminar at ANU
Srithanonchai,
Perhaps you could let us in on what you are talking about. Khun Paiboon’s main thrust at this point seems to be empowering local communities to peal back a slight amount of power fropm the Interior Ministry.
Electoral sabotage bears rich fruit
No need to fast forward that long Taxi Driver . . . Fast forward five weeks from now and you will hear that new Thai country singer Thaksin strumming his banjo trying to kill the junta with his out-of-tune very loud maudlin Hank Williams blues from a Manchester City bar . . . .
excerpts . . .
” . . .
I love to hear Thailandia when she calls me
Sweet dad-ad-ad-dy, such a beautiful dream
I hate to think it all o-o-ver
I’ve lost my heart it seems
I’ve grown so used to her some-how
Well, I’m nobody’s sugar- daddy now
And I’m lo-on-lonesome
I got the lovesick blu-ues.”
Electoral sabotage bears rich fruit
R.X’s public image and, more importantly, his status within the court circle is beyond repair.