A few months ago I called Thailand a quasi-fascist state.
I was mocked.
But some of the pedants here think, just because Thailand doesn’t resemble the same models of Italy and Germany in the 30’s, then somehow it isn’t fascism.
OK. Maybe the current Thai political system isn’t fascism in the 1930’s sense of the word. But it is something sinister. It is not good. It is not democratic. It doesn’t support political freedom.
There is a concerted effort made by the palace, the aristocrats, the nativist capitalists, and other elites to disenfranchise the masses and keep them in a state of poverty and ignorance–and we are told to goose step to this “natural order” in the name of Nation, Religion, and Monarchy.
If people don’t get this, they have their heads rammed far up their asses.
We live under a military dictatorship that has restricted political rights in more ways than Thaksin ever did. This has been documented by many international human rights groups.
For the most part, the Thai press and academia have rolled over.
There are a few brave groups who have stood up to this junta, but they are written off as Thaksinistas or troublemakers.
Many anti-coup groups have been shut down this week. In Chiang Mai, some activists were taken to a military camp for “questioning.”
Quite frankly, I am troubled how lightly some here take the current situation, as if it something academic and not real.
What is more real, the map or the territory?
Some of you choose to disassociate and see Thailand as a map even though you are living right in the middle of the territory.
I don’t get it. This is not an academic game.
Here is the reality: There is no constitution. There is no rule of law. The government is capriciously censoring websites without court orders. People are prevented from traveling to political rallies. The junta has secret slush funds for its own rallies and its own propaganda purposes.
But hey, let us all get together in December and slap each other on the back and congratulate each other for this new order that has been created in honor of the king.
The absurdity of what is happening never ceases to amaze me.
Are we talking about film critic or box office success?
True, “300” flop or “Gladiator” flare might or might not related to lack of historical knowledge, or just because it come out the same time as “Naresuan”. But I doubt if “Gladiator” is not dark, it’s certainly gloomy enough.
Or the reason of Burma’s bashing spree might related to underlying social superiority feeling that modern Thai had culturally conquered Burma. Same reason Hollywood WW2 films like bashing German and Japan.
David W makes an interesting point, but it could be taken further. One wonders whether there is a “hidden agenda” in this conference to give international scientific respectability to Buddhist nationalist discourses in Thailand today (even if these discourses would be expressed at the conference in a more sophisticated way than by those clamouring for Buddhism to be made the national religion). As soon as one sees that the conference is sponsored by “K-brand”, and that it is taking place under a royalist dictatorship, then one automatically has one’s suspicions.
I’ve already experienced this sort of censor idiocy firsthand when the Thai university (not) I worked at blanket blocked all Geocities sites which blocked my own personal site of teaching material I had accumjulated over several years working in South Korea as well several other useful teaching sites. Of course, it’s impossible to get it unblocked because of the arrogant paternalist big daddy knows best attitude the IT officials at the university took. In another astoundingly ridiculous project of mind control they had us draw little outlines on our desk around stapler, scissors, etc, so we could remember where to put them and have tidy little (empty) minds. All decoration in work area banned also. The overseeing committee would come around and take threatening little digital photos to keep people in line. The university supposedly inherited this idea from Japanese automobile factories where was called the five Cs. By the way, all of this has nothing to do with being Thai or not Thai, the first argument some use to stifle all thought and debate. The arrogant IT and HR personnel at this university consistently took a haughty (ying) “better than thou” attitude towards the staff at the local government labour office also, who thoroughly resented it, supposedly because they worked at a university that had a royal name. Yet another case of people not doing honour to HMK in their deeds and actions. Truly despicable.
Claims about the compatability of Buddhism and Science have been a rich vein of discussion ever since the 19th century when Euro-Americans ‘discovered’ Buddhism and positioned it in very positive light as a contrast to theistic (anti-Englightenment) Christianity. And Asian Buddhists were more than happy to pick up this line of argument and run with it as well, for obvious reasons. While the greater compatability of Buddhism with science in contrast to Christianity is not unreasonable, the notion that the foundational methodology, epistemology and ontology of Buddhism and Science are compatible, even in agreement, can’t be taken very seriously in my opinion, at least with regards to how science is currently understood and practiced. While elements of Buddhist belief and practice, taken out of context, are comparable, much of the classical Buddhist vision of the world and proper action in it have to be quietly and discretely set aside for it to get a serious hearing at the table of modern Science. And vice-versa as well. These claims of compatability are typically built upon highly selective readings of either (or both) Buddhism and Science.
Quit frankly, I would take claims and assertions about the compatibility of Buddhism and Science more seriously if those same advocates were quite open about the disagreements, and even contradictions, between them as well. The various essays in the edited collection by B. Alan Wallace, Buddhism and Science, do a much more balanced job of evaluating the relative compatability (and incompatability) of them from the perspective of the natural and psychological sciences than most of the other highly romantic, highly selective and highly self-serving works. I suggest those interested in the topic take a look at that volume.
Fall – this is possibly similar with “Apocalypto” which poses to the general western audience the great task of dealing with mesoamerican ancient culture of the Maya. But a quick look into the webboard of Pantip seems to show that there is an appreciation of that film (http://www.pantip.com/cafe/chalermthai/topic/A5423478/A5423478.html).
That “300” is not a big hit in Thailand must not necessarily mean that it is due to a missing historical knowledge. As far as I know “Gladiator” or “Braveheart” have been quite popular in Thailand. But having spoken to some Thais in my environment I have heard that they do not like the comic style of the film, being mostly dark. They would like to have the film photographed in a natural way.
I reckon that “The Curse of the Golden Flower” is going to be popular in Thailand as well – if they are not tired with the stunts that does not seem to evolve over the years…
****
Another thing: Why is Burma referred to as “Hongsawadee” in the Movie “Naresuan”? As far as I know Hongsawadee was the Mon kingdom in South Burma which itself was hostile to the Burman who ruled from Taungoo. And it was in fact the Taungoo rulers who attacked Ayutthaya.
Can any historian of you provide with an answer?
As I haven’t seen the film yet I might miss some other important parts of it that might clarify my answer. But on the Thai section of the Naresuan website there was no mentioning of Taungoo.
I find the relation between Buddhism and science interesting. It has been noted for a while in the field of theoretical physics, in String and Super String theory, eg. My own interest on Buddhism is in the philosophy of mind. I feel well known philosophers of mind have left something to say on the relation of mind&brain (and a number of other issues). It would be interesting to see how Buddhism can offer to the social sciences (the relative science).
I once attended a conference on Mindfulness& clinical sciences in DC (in 2005 or 2006 I think), were you there Richard #1?
“In my opinion, historic-base film depend on audience knowledge of history”
If it is a mass market Hollywood movie, for sure. And also Naresuan has a religious status now in Thailand. There is a Naresuan shrine on Doi Wao in Maesai and I know people who worship him (or “pay respect” to him).
But if you want a really interesting new movie, that addressed a topic that hasn’t been addressed yet, really this is the best book that I can see:
Paths to Conflagration: Fifty Years of Diplomacy and Warfare in Laos, Thaland, and Vietnam Mayoury Ngaosyvathn & Pheuiphanh Ngaosyvathn [link]
Also a tragic story that pits the Chinese and the Burmese against Tais is the story of Si Lun-fa in Yunnan around 1400 in my paper [link].
Also the late 1980s Thai-Lao bloody border skirmishes might make for an interesting documentary. I’ve never seen any information on it.
This idea Buddhism and Science is a brilliant idea in a historical context.
Buddhist Kings in Burma and Thailand have always engaged periodically in religious reform and renewal. Like Dammazedi’s breaking up of monastic estates and the end of the infamous Ari monk practice of drinking alcohol at large feasts.
One dimension of religious renewal has always been substituting the more universal beliefs of Buddhism with a strong moral-ethical (and thus community solidarity) component for local beliefs centered around the worship of local (ammoral but necessarily immoral) spiritual forces like ghosts and magical practices, including talismans, tatooing and other forms of gaining invulnerability or protection from the random local forces of nature.
Tradition itself can also be a force that prevents people from looking after their health. An older member of my family recently broke her arm and refused to put a cast on it and do what the doctor told her because traditionally massage was used, she said (it cost a lot was another reason). I’ve seen seriously mentally disturbed children in Burma treated by monks also (not that the mental health professionals were there either).
Anyway, modern medical science saves lives and Buddhism reveres life of every form, so science seems like a promising new dimension to align religious reform efforts along, particulrly in rural areas where education is not valued so much. (Monks in development is another interesting thing mentioned in a Bangkok Post Op-ed piece by WIlliam Klausner today.)
All right. I think it is, as you do, important to distinguish the “internal” debates of PAD, students, or whoever from the effects in the environment of such organizations. Often, they are rather self-centered, while outsiders hardly even know them and their discourses. Even in Bangkok, the NoVote campaign was only one element in the total public discourse, and it is not easy to determine how much incluence all the different elements had on the voters.
Where has the interview that you mention been published?
“The NoVote campaign, in my assessment, had very little impact on the voters, certainly up-country.”
Sorry, perhaps in should say “in Bangkok” (if I remember correctly the NoVote in BKK equalled or surpassed the number of TRT vote.
Also it played a crucial in the internal debates in the PAD and the student movement. (recently the Student Federation’s Secretary General at the time gave an interview in which she revealed some debates between her and Sondhi, et al over this issue.)
In short, the NoVote was the major concrete proposal of the “2 Nos” position.
The NoVote campaign, in my assessment, had very little impact on the voters, certainly up-country. They voted NoVote, because they were dissatisfied with the entire situation and because they had no other choice, when they did not want to vote for Thaksin. Why should a supporter should have voted for TRT? For this reason, one even can’t say that the NoVotes were “protest votes.”
In my opinion, historic-base film depend on audience knowledge of history. Because war with Burmese is the only major battle victory that Thai mass audience can relate their historical knowledge to. That’s why “300” have not been a hit in Thailand.
Make a film about war with Lao and they go “Huh?”. Try make one where Thai fight in WWII on the Axis side…
Re: polo
“Somsak: i don’t see at all how you can include Thongchai is the “2 nos” group. He is among the very few who have been absolutely consistent.”
“consistent” with what?
In fact, Thongchai IS a leading proponent – if not THE leading one – of this position. “No to Thaksin, No to King-selected PM”. (The NoVote campsign which, in my view, played a crucial role in creating a situation of impasse was arguably influenced in large part by his suggestion early in the crises.) See even his article after the coup published in the Fa Diew Kan collection
As far as Buddhism and Science goes I can tell you as a psychology major, various Bhuddhist mediation practices, particulary Mindfulness, have been used more and more in treating many mental and physical illnesses. In fact, research reports come out every other day about the benefits of meditations and health. You could write a book on the subject.
Not sure if that’s where you were going with this post but I thought I would share.
I’m actually reading a book right now which applies Mindfulness as an aid to increase thorough objectivity when doing social science research.
In your piece you seem to criticize Handley for not reaching a definitive conclusion. But in his book he pretty well discarded everything but the two conclusions the palace will never admit to: suicide or accidental fratricide. You don’t even repeat that much. I think he said in the book that there’s no available evidence to conclude without question one way or another. You only say that there’s enough evidence out there to come to a conclusion. It’s sensitive of course, and you are bold to bring it up, but perhaps you need to show us just what evidence is there that proves what happened.
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Blocking Blogspot and more…
In Thailand it’s not question of fascism: it’s just a big mess !
And some people are using this mess to keep their power…
Blocking Blogspot and more…
A few months ago I called Thailand a quasi-fascist state.
I was mocked.
But some of the pedants here think, just because Thailand doesn’t resemble the same models of Italy and Germany in the 30’s, then somehow it isn’t fascism.
OK. Maybe the current Thai political system isn’t fascism in the 1930’s sense of the word. But it is something sinister. It is not good. It is not democratic. It doesn’t support political freedom.
There is a concerted effort made by the palace, the aristocrats, the nativist capitalists, and other elites to disenfranchise the masses and keep them in a state of poverty and ignorance–and we are told to goose step to this “natural order” in the name of Nation, Religion, and Monarchy.
If people don’t get this, they have their heads rammed far up their asses.
We live under a military dictatorship that has restricted political rights in more ways than Thaksin ever did. This has been documented by many international human rights groups.
For the most part, the Thai press and academia have rolled over.
There are a few brave groups who have stood up to this junta, but they are written off as Thaksinistas or troublemakers.
Many anti-coup groups have been shut down this week. In Chiang Mai, some activists were taken to a military camp for “questioning.”
Quite frankly, I am troubled how lightly some here take the current situation, as if it something academic and not real.
What is more real, the map or the territory?
Some of you choose to disassociate and see Thailand as a map even though you are living right in the middle of the territory.
I don’t get it. This is not an academic game.
Here is the reality: There is no constitution. There is no rule of law. The government is capriciously censoring websites without court orders. People are prevented from traveling to political rallies. The junta has secret slush funds for its own rallies and its own propaganda purposes.
But hey, let us all get together in December and slap each other on the back and congratulate each other for this new order that has been created in honor of the king.
The absurdity of what is happening never ceases to amaze me.
Thai cinematic war with Burma
Are we talking about film critic or box office success?
True, “300” flop or “Gladiator” flare might or might not related to lack of historical knowledge, or just because it come out the same time as “Naresuan”. But I doubt if “Gladiator” is not dark, it’s certainly gloomy enough.
Or the reason of Burma’s bashing spree might related to underlying social superiority feeling that modern Thai had culturally conquered Burma. Same reason Hollywood WW2 films like bashing German and Japan.
‘Buddhism and Science’ conference at Mahidol
Biologists should use telescopes and astronomers, microscopes.
‘Buddhism and Science’ conference at Mahidol
David W makes an interesting point, but it could be taken further. One wonders whether there is a “hidden agenda” in this conference to give international scientific respectability to Buddhist nationalist discourses in Thailand today (even if these discourses would be expressed at the conference in a more sophisticated way than by those clamouring for Buddhism to be made the national religion). As soon as one sees that the conference is sponsored by “K-brand”, and that it is taking place under a royalist dictatorship, then one automatically has one’s suspicions.
Blocking Blogspot and more…
I’ve already experienced this sort of censor idiocy firsthand when the Thai university (not) I worked at blanket blocked all Geocities sites which blocked my own personal site of teaching material I had accumjulated over several years working in South Korea as well several other useful teaching sites. Of course, it’s impossible to get it unblocked because of the arrogant paternalist big daddy knows best attitude the IT officials at the university took. In another astoundingly ridiculous project of mind control they had us draw little outlines on our desk around stapler, scissors, etc, so we could remember where to put them and have tidy little (empty) minds. All decoration in work area banned also. The overseeing committee would come around and take threatening little digital photos to keep people in line. The university supposedly inherited this idea from Japanese automobile factories where was called the five Cs. By the way, all of this has nothing to do with being Thai or not Thai, the first argument some use to stifle all thought and debate. The arrogant IT and HR personnel at this university consistently took a haughty (ying) “better than thou” attitude towards the staff at the local government labour office also, who thoroughly resented it, supposedly because they worked at a university that had a royal name. Yet another case of people not doing honour to HMK in their deeds and actions. Truly despicable.
‘Buddhism and Science’ conference at Mahidol
Claims about the compatability of Buddhism and Science have been a rich vein of discussion ever since the 19th century when Euro-Americans ‘discovered’ Buddhism and positioned it in very positive light as a contrast to theistic (anti-Englightenment) Christianity. And Asian Buddhists were more than happy to pick up this line of argument and run with it as well, for obvious reasons. While the greater compatability of Buddhism with science in contrast to Christianity is not unreasonable, the notion that the foundational methodology, epistemology and ontology of Buddhism and Science are compatible, even in agreement, can’t be taken very seriously in my opinion, at least with regards to how science is currently understood and practiced. While elements of Buddhist belief and practice, taken out of context, are comparable, much of the classical Buddhist vision of the world and proper action in it have to be quietly and discretely set aside for it to get a serious hearing at the table of modern Science. And vice-versa as well. These claims of compatability are typically built upon highly selective readings of either (or both) Buddhism and Science.
Quit frankly, I would take claims and assertions about the compatibility of Buddhism and Science more seriously if those same advocates were quite open about the disagreements, and even contradictions, between them as well. The various essays in the edited collection by B. Alan Wallace, Buddhism and Science, do a much more balanced job of evaluating the relative compatability (and incompatability) of them from the perspective of the natural and psychological sciences than most of the other highly romantic, highly selective and highly self-serving works. I suggest those interested in the topic take a look at that volume.
Thai cinematic war with Burma
Fall – this is possibly similar with “Apocalypto” which poses to the general western audience the great task of dealing with mesoamerican ancient culture of the Maya. But a quick look into the webboard of Pantip seems to show that there is an appreciation of that film (http://www.pantip.com/cafe/chalermthai/topic/A5423478/A5423478.html).
That “300” is not a big hit in Thailand must not necessarily mean that it is due to a missing historical knowledge. As far as I know “Gladiator” or “Braveheart” have been quite popular in Thailand. But having spoken to some Thais in my environment I have heard that they do not like the comic style of the film, being mostly dark. They would like to have the film photographed in a natural way.
I reckon that “The Curse of the Golden Flower” is going to be popular in Thailand as well – if they are not tired with the stunts that does not seem to evolve over the years…
****
Another thing: Why is Burma referred to as “Hongsawadee” in the Movie “Naresuan”? As far as I know Hongsawadee was the Mon kingdom in South Burma which itself was hostile to the Burman who ruled from Taungoo. And it was in fact the Taungoo rulers who attacked Ayutthaya.
Can any historian of you provide with an answer?
As I haven’t seen the film yet I might miss some other important parts of it that might clarify my answer. But on the Thai section of the Naresuan website there was no mentioning of Taungoo.
‘Buddhism and Science’ conference at Mahidol
I find the relation between Buddhism and science interesting. It has been noted for a while in the field of theoretical physics, in String and Super String theory, eg. My own interest on Buddhism is in the philosophy of mind. I feel well known philosophers of mind have left something to say on the relation of mind&brain (and a number of other issues). It would be interesting to see how Buddhism can offer to the social sciences (the relative science).
I once attended a conference on Mindfulness& clinical sciences in DC (in 2005 or 2006 I think), were you there Richard #1?
Thai cinematic war with Burma
“In my opinion, historic-base film depend on audience knowledge of history”
If it is a mass market Hollywood movie, for sure. And also Naresuan has a religious status now in Thailand. There is a Naresuan shrine on Doi Wao in Maesai and I know people who worship him (or “pay respect” to him).
But if you want a really interesting new movie, that addressed a topic that hasn’t been addressed yet, really this is the best book that I can see:
Paths to Conflagration: Fifty Years of Diplomacy and Warfare in Laos, Thaland, and Vietnam Mayoury Ngaosyvathn & Pheuiphanh Ngaosyvathn [link]
Also a tragic story that pits the Chinese and the Burmese against Tais is the story of Si Lun-fa in Yunnan around 1400 in my paper [link].
Also the late 1980s Thai-Lao bloody border skirmishes might make for an interesting documentary. I’ve never seen any information on it.
‘Buddhism and Science’ conference at Mahidol
This idea Buddhism and Science is a brilliant idea in a historical context.
Buddhist Kings in Burma and Thailand have always engaged periodically in religious reform and renewal. Like Dammazedi’s breaking up of monastic estates and the end of the infamous Ari monk practice of drinking alcohol at large feasts.
One dimension of religious renewal has always been substituting the more universal beliefs of Buddhism with a strong moral-ethical (and thus community solidarity) component for local beliefs centered around the worship of local (ammoral but necessarily immoral) spiritual forces like ghosts and magical practices, including talismans, tatooing and other forms of gaining invulnerability or protection from the random local forces of nature.
Tradition itself can also be a force that prevents people from looking after their health. An older member of my family recently broke her arm and refused to put a cast on it and do what the doctor told her because traditionally massage was used, she said (it cost a lot was another reason). I’ve seen seriously mentally disturbed children in Burma treated by monks also (not that the mental health professionals were there either).
Anyway, modern medical science saves lives and Buddhism reveres life of every form, so science seems like a promising new dimension to align religious reform efforts along, particulrly in rural areas where education is not valued so much. (Monks in development is another interesting thing mentioned in a Bangkok Post Op-ed piece by WIlliam Klausner today.)
A friendly reception
Somsak:
All right. I think it is, as you do, important to distinguish the “internal” debates of PAD, students, or whoever from the effects in the environment of such organizations. Often, they are rather self-centered, while outsiders hardly even know them and their discourses. Even in Bangkok, the NoVote campaign was only one element in the total public discourse, and it is not easy to determine how much incluence all the different elements had on the voters.
Where has the interview that you mention been published?
Somsak on Ananda Mahidol
Yes, polo.
And at least 3,000 people are waiting for what Somsak has to say about this (i.e. the other two parts he promised).
A friendly reception
Re: Srithanonchai
“The NoVote campaign, in my assessment, had very little impact on the voters, certainly up-country.”
Sorry, perhaps in should say “in Bangkok” (if I remember correctly the NoVote in BKK equalled or surpassed the number of TRT vote.
Also it played a crucial in the internal debates in the PAD and the student movement. (recently the Student Federation’s Secretary General at the time gave an interview in which she revealed some debates between her and Sondhi, et al over this issue.)
In short, the NoVote was the major concrete proposal of the “2 Nos” position.
A friendly reception
The NoVote campaign, in my assessment, had very little impact on the voters, certainly up-country. They voted NoVote, because they were dissatisfied with the entire situation and because they had no other choice, when they did not want to vote for Thaksin. Why should a supporter should have voted for TRT? For this reason, one even can’t say that the NoVotes were “protest votes.”
Thai cinematic war with Burma
In my opinion, historic-base film depend on audience knowledge of history. Because war with Burmese is the only major battle victory that Thai mass audience can relate their historical knowledge to. That’s why “300” have not been a hit in Thailand.
Make a film about war with Lao and they go “Huh?”. Try make one where Thai fight in WWII on the Axis side…
A friendly reception
Re: polo
“Somsak: i don’t see at all how you can include Thongchai is the “2 nos” group. He is among the very few who have been absolutely consistent.”
“consistent” with what?
In fact, Thongchai IS a leading proponent – if not THE leading one – of this position. “No to Thaksin, No to King-selected PM”. (The NoVote campsign which, in my view, played a crucial role in creating a situation of impasse was arguably influenced in large part by his suggestion early in the crises.) See even his article after the coup published in the Fa Diew Kan collection
Rambo takes on the Tatmadaw
I call the film exploitation
‘Buddhism and Science’ conference at Mahidol
As far as Buddhism and Science goes I can tell you as a psychology major, various Bhuddhist mediation practices, particulary Mindfulness, have been used more and more in treating many mental and physical illnesses. In fact, research reports come out every other day about the benefits of meditations and health. You could write a book on the subject.
Not sure if that’s where you were going with this post but I thought I would share.
I’m actually reading a book right now which applies Mindfulness as an aid to increase thorough objectivity when doing social science research.
Somsak on Ananda Mahidol
Somsak,
In your piece you seem to criticize Handley for not reaching a definitive conclusion. But in his book he pretty well discarded everything but the two conclusions the palace will never admit to: suicide or accidental fratricide. You don’t even repeat that much. I think he said in the book that there’s no available evidence to conclude without question one way or another. You only say that there’s enough evidence out there to come to a conclusion. It’s sensitive of course, and you are bold to bring it up, but perhaps you need to show us just what evidence is there that proves what happened.