It’s hardly a groundbreaking observation to say that red shirts are not a homogenous group – indeed, Nick Nostitz has analyzed the different strands of the movement in great detail and done the best English-language work on this issue. It’s totally incorrect to say that the killings of soldiers on 10 April 2010, the guerrilla attacks of April/May 2010 and most attacks on the PDRC in 2013/2014 were the work of provocateurs. Many journalists – who you ignorantly dismiss as uninformed and naive – saw the so-called “black shirt” fighters in action in 2010, and I have spoken to many of the perpetrators in Phnom Penh. I suggest you make the effort to travel to Phnom Penh yourself if you want to verify this directly. Finally, you can safely share photographs of yourself working in Thailand with the faces of others obscured, which can be done with any simple photo editing tool, so that will enable you to share the material straight away. Look forward to seeing the images!
Sironchai 17.2, I’d love to, but in a fascist state it is too dangerous to post pics for the people I was with, both ordinary working people, as well as central and provincial/district leaders (–those still living). Better to leave the past as it is for the time being until democracy returns then I can post these.
As for agent provocateurs leading to an excuse to crackdown, these were identified at times during the rallies and handed to police (though this was a revolving door), and leaders warned masses at demos of the state using these folk (mostly from the army, or DP/ pro-Prem nak-leng from the south). Everyone at the barricades knew, and were cautious of, the presence of agent provocateurs — seemingly except journos who were not close to the organisational leadership or the masses. a final point I want to make here is that we should not think red shirts as a homogeneous movement: they were differentiated around some important characteristics and historical influences (of course not least around the issue of loyalty to Thaksin). But they were united in an aspiration for freedom, justice and democracy.
So now you’re telling us, Jim, that only comments that agree with you are acceptable, and anybody who disagrees with you is trying to “distract attention” from your analysis? How tiresome it must be when “self-opinionated” journos” point out that the simplistic good-versus-evil moral framework of your analysis doesn’t fit the facts.
It’s a Herculean task like cleaning out the Augean Stables but if anyone deserves a chance to sort out this whole mess, who better suited than this outwardly fragile looking seventy year old? The peoples of Burma themselves have spoken and entrusted her with the task with their full and passionate support.
Choppy seas ahead no doubt. Certainly her steering the ship of state will be tested by many and that’s just some of the free market champions who are not exactly amused by the Lady’s apparent lack of faith in their god, not to mention the more than watchful generals.
Since you were so intensively involved with the Red Shirts, and Nick was also intensively involved with them, surely both of you should have met at some point, no?
The author of this interesting post notes that the Cornell Paper was ‘released anonymously’ in 1966. It would be more accurate to say that it was ‘distributed to a rather limited number of recipients’. Those lucky enough to be among the addressees of this remarkable piece of writing were probably informed who exactly the authors were.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, it was leaked to a wider circle of readers, allegedly at first by a prominent Rand Corporation analyst well-connected to the Indonesian army.
My recollection is that there were only a couple of copies ‘officially’ in Australian hands in 1966-67, probably only in Melbourne. Sydney University’s Department of Indonesian and Malayan Studies didn’t have a copy. In March 1968, I was lent a copy in Bandung by a Sundanese civilian associate of General Nasution’s, and presumably many other copies were circulating in Indonesia by then.
I have always regretted that the authors of the Cornell Paper didn’t join forces again to write some kind of broader history of Guided Democracy. Admittedly, Frederick Bunnell expertly analysed that era’s foreign policy in articles in the Indonesia magazine. Yet, judging solely by the insights into the workings of Sukarno’s idiosyncratic regime that made their respective contributions to the Cornell Paper so compelling, one must assume that Anderson and McVey could have produced a study of lasting and surpassing value had they been working on a larger canvas.
It is beyond me why people are not satisfied calling the current Thai regime “military dictatorship/authoritarianism.” This regime certainly does not need national revival, but merely “political reform,” based upon an aphichon discourse that has been around for more than 30 years, aggravated by the so-called “Thaksin regime.”
Well, when several of the basic premises that lead you to this “analyses” are factually deeply flawed – as your claim of hundreds of dead during and after the 2009 crackdown for which no single piece of evidence exists – we do have to question these therefore at least equally ‘self-opinionated’ assumptions of yours.
The old east German regime braver opponents of fascism?! Hardly. They had a simple solution, declaring itself the successors of the resistance and west Germany the successor regime of the Nazis. In both countries former Nazis soon found themselves in position again.
This simple ideological distancing from the Nazi past did not necessitate to do any real soul searching in the east as happened in the west, especially following the ’68 movement, which began by openly questioning the role of their parent generation in Nazi Germany. This lack of dealing with the past resulted in a rise of Neonazis in East Germany not long before the fall of the wall, and a massive increase straight after the fall of the wall, lasting until today, where in former east Germany the popularity of far right parties and movements is much higher than in former west Germany.
As to the Red Shirts, yes, the vast majority of ordinary protesters are peaceful protesters and unarmed. So are most of the ordinary Yellow Shirt protesters. But in both sides are groups of armed militants (with enormous structural differences, however, and naturally, with differences in ideology). It is only natural that in such an elementary conflict armed struggle to some extend is part of, and that in a social mass movement a myriad of groups are existing with differences in strategy and tactics, and some may be violent. No such conflict in history anywhere has been entirely peaceful. Denial of such a basic reality is absurd and serves nothing and nobody, especially when there is more than ample evidence existing, such as videos, photos, witness accounts, etc.
In terms of the Red Shirts, the existence of armed militants on their side does not negate the validity of their political demands.
I feel very uncomfortable with the use of the emotionally and historically loaded term of fascism to describe the present military dictatorship here now. While we can find parallels we can also see differences. If, as the military announces regularly, this interregnum will lead to some form of guided democracy similar to the 80’s we cannot apply this term. Of course, things may lead to a longer term dictatorship, then we may have to re-asses. But if we prematurely use the term of fascism now, how will we then describe what may, unlikely though for now, come then? “Ultra-Fascism”? “Hyper-Fascism”?
Reality of today is, that besides the pressures against opponents, which are more psychological than actually violent, so far (!), much behind the scenes negotiating, horse trading and attempts for finding solutions take place, and it is simply too early to actually define the present system. Things are still in the process of making.
In some way, this pressure to apply the term fascism to the present military regime reminds me of the (ongoing) pressure by Yellow propagandists to compare Thaksin with Hitler. Which, i believe everyone here may agree, is even more absurd.
Even worse – such attempts are a disrespect to Holocaust victims. We cannot apply such terminology, be it comparisons to Hitler, or fascism, to every authoritarian regime randomly just because we do not like authoritarian regimes.
The application of such absolutes leads to polarized analyses which does not correctly describe the enormous complexity of the present situation in Thailand. While it may be permissible on stage propaganda, for purposes of analyses i think it is not suitable and we should use more diversified terms, especially terms that are closer to Thai specific history.
Malaysia is sliding rapidly down the slippery slope of islamisation. (is this even a word? – never mind) This is the real danger. With the economy severely damaged, the ruling party is desparately using race and religion to gartner support. Normally semi-intelligent people is failing to see that, this route has no reverse gear..
Will Malaysia become a failed state – like pakistan, Afganistan or even worse – Irag? don’t know, just hope I don’t live to see it.
Frank & R.E./ thanks for focusing the comments on the piece itself (–as it should be), and not trying to distract attention from this analysis, as in the case of two self-opinionated journos.
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A state of madness
It’s hardly a groundbreaking observation to say that red shirts are not a homogenous group – indeed, Nick Nostitz has analyzed the different strands of the movement in great detail and done the best English-language work on this issue. It’s totally incorrect to say that the killings of soldiers on 10 April 2010, the guerrilla attacks of April/May 2010 and most attacks on the PDRC in 2013/2014 were the work of provocateurs. Many journalists – who you ignorantly dismiss as uninformed and naive – saw the so-called “black shirt” fighters in action in 2010, and I have spoken to many of the perpetrators in Phnom Penh. I suggest you make the effort to travel to Phnom Penh yourself if you want to verify this directly. Finally, you can safely share photographs of yourself working in Thailand with the faces of others obscured, which can be done with any simple photo editing tool, so that will enable you to share the material straight away. Look forward to seeing the images!
A state of madness
Sironchai 17.2, I’d love to, but in a fascist state it is too dangerous to post pics for the people I was with, both ordinary working people, as well as central and provincial/district leaders (–those still living). Better to leave the past as it is for the time being until democracy returns then I can post these.
As for agent provocateurs leading to an excuse to crackdown, these were identified at times during the rallies and handed to police (though this was a revolving door), and leaders warned masses at demos of the state using these folk (mostly from the army, or DP/ pro-Prem nak-leng from the south). Everyone at the barricades knew, and were cautious of, the presence of agent provocateurs — seemingly except journos who were not close to the organisational leadership or the masses. a final point I want to make here is that we should not think red shirts as a homogeneous movement: they were differentiated around some important characteristics and historical influences (of course not least around the issue of loyalty to Thaksin). But they were united in an aspiration for freedom, justice and democracy.
Dog v dog: Theatrics of the Thai interregnum
I just learned that Thong Daeng finally died. Will she get a state funeral?
Can Myanmar keep getting better?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-consequences-of-globalization-and-neoliberal-policies-what-are-the-alternatives/7973
Malaysia reaps what UMNO sows
Make that two of us Neptunian, but I am nearing 60, so it will be daughter who will see Malaysia become “Pakistan lite”….I feel for her.
A state of madness
So now you’re telling us, Jim, that only comments that agree with you are acceptable, and anybody who disagrees with you is trying to “distract attention” from your analysis? How tiresome it must be when “self-opinionated” journos” point out that the simplistic good-versus-evil moral framework of your analysis doesn’t fit the facts.
Can Myanmar keep getting better?
Faith of any sort in anything under any circumstances for anybody is indeed most comforting.
Everyone should have one.
A state of madness
We haven’t, at least not that i know of. I don’t even know how Jim Taylor looks.
Can Myanmar keep getting better?
That was a rant and a half. Too many apples up in the air to juggle, Union of Myanmar Economic Holdings (UMEHL) in partnership with Myanmar Wanbao Mining is only one of them.
It’s a Herculean task like cleaning out the Augean Stables but if anyone deserves a chance to sort out this whole mess, who better suited than this outwardly fragile looking seventy year old? The peoples of Burma themselves have spoken and entrusted her with the task with their full and passionate support.
Choppy seas ahead no doubt. Certainly her steering the ship of state will be tested by many and that’s just some of the free market champions who are not exactly amused by the Lady’s apparent lack of faith in their god, not to mention the more than watchful generals.
A state of madness
Since you were so intensively involved with the Red Shirts, and Nick was also intensively involved with them, surely both of you should have met at some point, no?
A state of madness
Could you perhaps put up a few pictures of you being at the barricades?
In search of truth and justice: a tribute to Benedict Anderson
The author of this interesting post notes that the Cornell Paper was ‘released anonymously’ in 1966. It would be more accurate to say that it was ‘distributed to a rather limited number of recipients’. Those lucky enough to be among the addressees of this remarkable piece of writing were probably informed who exactly the authors were.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, it was leaked to a wider circle of readers, allegedly at first by a prominent Rand Corporation analyst well-connected to the Indonesian army.
My recollection is that there were only a couple of copies ‘officially’ in Australian hands in 1966-67, probably only in Melbourne. Sydney University’s Department of Indonesian and Malayan Studies didn’t have a copy. In March 1968, I was lent a copy in Bandung by a Sundanese civilian associate of General Nasution’s, and presumably many other copies were circulating in Indonesia by then.
I have always regretted that the authors of the Cornell Paper didn’t join forces again to write some kind of broader history of Guided Democracy. Admittedly, Frederick Bunnell expertly analysed that era’s foreign policy in articles in the Indonesia magazine. Yet, judging solely by the insights into the workings of Sukarno’s idiosyncratic regime that made their respective contributions to the Cornell Paper so compelling, one must assume that Anderson and McVey could have produced a study of lasting and surpassing value had they been working on a larger canvas.
A state of madness
Maybe, we can call the Thai system “Bureaucratic Neo-Wilhelminian”?
A state of madness
In the current context, Thailand has neither a “leader” nor a “Fuehrerprinzip.”
A state of madness
It is beyond me why people are not satisfied calling the current Thai regime “military dictatorship/authoritarianism.” This regime certainly does not need national revival, but merely “political reform,” based upon an aphichon discourse that has been around for more than 30 years, aggravated by the so-called “Thaksin regime.”
A state of madness
Well, when several of the basic premises that lead you to this “analyses” are factually deeply flawed – as your claim of hundreds of dead during and after the 2009 crackdown for which no single piece of evidence exists – we do have to question these therefore at least equally ‘self-opinionated’ assumptions of yours.
A state of madness
The old east German regime braver opponents of fascism?! Hardly. They had a simple solution, declaring itself the successors of the resistance and west Germany the successor regime of the Nazis. In both countries former Nazis soon found themselves in position again.
This simple ideological distancing from the Nazi past did not necessitate to do any real soul searching in the east as happened in the west, especially following the ’68 movement, which began by openly questioning the role of their parent generation in Nazi Germany. This lack of dealing with the past resulted in a rise of Neonazis in East Germany not long before the fall of the wall, and a massive increase straight after the fall of the wall, lasting until today, where in former east Germany the popularity of far right parties and movements is much higher than in former west Germany.
As to the Red Shirts, yes, the vast majority of ordinary protesters are peaceful protesters and unarmed. So are most of the ordinary Yellow Shirt protesters. But in both sides are groups of armed militants (with enormous structural differences, however, and naturally, with differences in ideology). It is only natural that in such an elementary conflict armed struggle to some extend is part of, and that in a social mass movement a myriad of groups are existing with differences in strategy and tactics, and some may be violent. No such conflict in history anywhere has been entirely peaceful. Denial of such a basic reality is absurd and serves nothing and nobody, especially when there is more than ample evidence existing, such as videos, photos, witness accounts, etc.
In terms of the Red Shirts, the existence of armed militants on their side does not negate the validity of their political demands.
I feel very uncomfortable with the use of the emotionally and historically loaded term of fascism to describe the present military dictatorship here now. While we can find parallels we can also see differences. If, as the military announces regularly, this interregnum will lead to some form of guided democracy similar to the 80’s we cannot apply this term. Of course, things may lead to a longer term dictatorship, then we may have to re-asses. But if we prematurely use the term of fascism now, how will we then describe what may, unlikely though for now, come then? “Ultra-Fascism”? “Hyper-Fascism”?
Reality of today is, that besides the pressures against opponents, which are more psychological than actually violent, so far (!), much behind the scenes negotiating, horse trading and attempts for finding solutions take place, and it is simply too early to actually define the present system. Things are still in the process of making.
In some way, this pressure to apply the term fascism to the present military regime reminds me of the (ongoing) pressure by Yellow propagandists to compare Thaksin with Hitler. Which, i believe everyone here may agree, is even more absurd.
Even worse – such attempts are a disrespect to Holocaust victims. We cannot apply such terminology, be it comparisons to Hitler, or fascism, to every authoritarian regime randomly just because we do not like authoritarian regimes.
The application of such absolutes leads to polarized analyses which does not correctly describe the enormous complexity of the present situation in Thailand. While it may be permissible on stage propaganda, for purposes of analyses i think it is not suitable and we should use more diversified terms, especially terms that are closer to Thai specific history.
Malaysia reaps what UMNO sows
Malaysia is sliding rapidly down the slippery slope of islamisation. (is this even a word? – never mind) This is the real danger. With the economy severely damaged, the ruling party is desparately using race and religion to gartner support. Normally semi-intelligent people is failing to see that, this route has no reverse gear..
Will Malaysia become a failed state – like pakistan, Afganistan or even worse – Irag? don’t know, just hope I don’t live to see it.
A state of madness
Frank & R.E./ thanks for focusing the comments on the piece itself (–as it should be), and not trying to distract attention from this analysis, as in the case of two self-opinionated journos.
A state of madness
I’m sorry. The first time I said “Frank”, it should have been “Jim”.