Can we invite Justin to post us a summary of the conference from his detailed notes on this blog so we can debate some of the issues in a slightly freer environment than one with the Thai Embassy overseeing proceedings?
I think your book destroy smile of thai people if you don’t know thai culture and not thai people. Please do not touch our beloved King. and I will tell you my king’s smile is smile of his people.
I am just returning from the “Conference on Thailand-U.S. Relations” organized by the Thai Embassy in Washington DC. While I will not offer my views on individual papers. There were many very good ones. This conference drew participation by members of the Thai Studies program at Georgetown, the Bank
of Thailand, the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, the Thai Ministry of Commerce, the Prajadhipok Institute, the US Department of Commerce, the US Department of Defense, Chulalongkorn University, Thammasat University, Ramkhamhaeng University, the US Department of State, the Asia Foundation, and well as scholars from Northern Illinois University, Cornell, SAIS, University of Michigan-Ann Arbor, University of Wisconsin-Madison, USC, UCR, and the University of Oregon. I thought those interested in Thai-U.S. relations, trade treaties, political relations, etc. might be interested in the itinerary, topics, and list of speakers. I took detailed notes and I am perfectly happy to talk with people off list about the conference talks. Thanks,
justin [McDaniel].
Hi, I’m an Australian who has been living in Jinghong for over two years now. I speak fluent Chinese (~5-6 years) and some Lao/Thai (intermittent). If anyone’s doing research in the area, please drop me a line by email (supplied but hidden!)
This is an unfortunate battle. On the one hand, thousands are potentially being denied access to life-prolonging medications. On the other hand, pharmaceutical companies do dedicate a significant amount of time and money to research and development, and the idealistic notion that those companies should simply ignore patent infringement is untenable. By extension, I am reminded of the prior government’s 30 baht-treats-everything policy, wherein the government compelled hospitals to treat patients beyond the hospitals’ budgetary capacities. Even in countries with more developed national health plans, there are limits and restrictions on what treatments one may receive, and when one may receive them.
I also would be curious to find out specific details of HIV treatment in Thailand. Medication regimens are better tolerated nowadays, but still associated with significant side-effects, and poor treatment compliance raises the risk of resistance and a need for (expensive) second-line therapy.
That being said, I do take issue with Thailand Jumped the Shark’s assertion that HIV/AIDS is purely a problem of human behavior, and that safe sex or no sex would bring the problem to a halt. Unknowing recipients of the virus, e.g. a woman acquiring it from her spouse/boyfriend or vertical transmission of the virus from mother to child, deserve no blame for the actions of others.
Well, the crown prince is certainly guilty of adultery (which is a criminal offense in Thailand), and certainly nobody is going to successfully file charges against him…
I dont think he is the only one – how many have been charged?
Sounds like Klein has gone really soft in the head over Thailand.
>Counter coup is nonsense, as Patiwat said.
> “under the normal party structures, Thaksin would not have been able to orchestrate such a unified amalgamation.”. Perhaps this is the note-taker’s interpretation, but “normal party structures” are what, exactly? The 1997 constitution aimed to force a consodliation of the “too many parties” system which required someone with access to money and the military to pull enough in line to keep a majority. After the new constitution, Thaksin used his money and military pull to consolidate them. Not too different, and there is little reason to believe he or someone else couldn’t pull it off in the future. Of course, the new constitution might push in the opposite direction.
>”this was not a return to the old military interventionist order”. HMMM, it’s a new military interventionist order? Not too different from the last several coups, from what I can see. Even by his definition: The military takes power and has little idea of what to do besides protect their own power and budgets.
> “not an act of deliberate constitutional denial”. Then why did they abrogate the constitution? Because it’s there? Why are they overseeing the writing of a different constitution?
Methinks it is Klein who is in denial, and the Asia Foundation if they continue to pay him. The fact that he would not talk about the monarchy at all out of overwhelming respect shows that he is soft in the head: discussing the king openly if circumspectly is all the rage these days.
Well, the crown prince is certainly guilty of adultery (which is a criminal offense in Thailand), and certainly nobody is going to successfully file charges against him…
So if “anything done in support of the basic elements of the 1997 constitution would automatically necessitate recognition of the monarchy”, then doesn’t ripping up the 1997 constitution automatically imply treason against the monarchy?
I’ve said it before and I’ve said it again: the military junta has violated the monarchy more than the masterminds of the Finland Plan (assuming the Plan even exists). The military might not be favoring a republican form of government, but they’re certainly doing their worst to make people question the compatibility of the monarchy and a democratic system of government.
Thaksin dissolved Parliament in the end of February 2006. His government automatically became a caretaker government, but practically speaking, the day-to-day business of government didn’t change. The opposition boycotted the elections, and in May, the Constitutional Court voided the elections. Fine… the EC set new elections for October.
That’s 8 months with a caretaker government. Thaksin was a caretaker Prime Minister. He didn’t declare himself a permanent Premier, he didn’t cancel elections, and he didn’t violate the constitution. If he did, how come nobody filed charges to the Constitutional Court?
Thailand Jumped the Shark Blog makes some good points, and that columnist never presents very convincing arguments, but he errs in treating Thai people and Thailand as one monolithic thing. It isn’t.
Thai nationalism constructs an imagine of unity.
But the reality poor people face is quite different.
Nothing is going to change, especially the distribution of income, and prostitution illegal? If you read old articles, the police publicly deny it even exists, but privately at the local level are deeply involved in trafficing and extracting rents from brothels.
If you could somehow take pictures of all these lies and display them all simultaneously, so they could not be denied, they would still be denied.
Furthermore, in all the situations I’ve seen, the person who breaks the law or acts immorally, gets rewarded for it, even promoted, like the mafia, after bloodying your hands.
For instance, in a college a friend of mine taught at, one of the older male teachers was acting as a sort of escort service for his good-looking female students with local businessmen. Did he get sacked? No he got a scholarship to Australia!
Things like this cannot and will not change if people accept them passively and non-confrontationally, but I’ve never seen it otherwise, so they end up getting what they asked for, all over again, like the wheel of samsara.
Religion could be the way out, but the likelihood of everyone simultaneously lead upright lives like Chamlong Sri Muang, so Chamlong could govern them all, and not get kicked out as mayor, not very likely.
Dear interesteded people,
thank you for the comments above and this is also in response to Oliviers first comments.
I have visited the Kmhmu’ people in Mengla County of Sipsong Phanna, Yunnan in late 2005. They plant either rubber or tea or both and still have some rice fields as well but do not bother with vegetables or other things like fish ponds or alcohol production much which they leave up to Chinese newcomers to the area. I remarked that the rubber farmers in the villages there did very well in comparison to their relatives in Laos. They said if the people owned their plantation as a family business and delivered the latex to the company, they could do very well. I saw that their villages were more prosperous than any of the Kmhmu’ villages I had seen in Laos. And the people proudly explained that they had ordered this and that like cemented roads themselves and paid themselves. They also can fit the rubber and tea cultures well into their traditional culture keeping their rituals alive amazingly close to how they had it with the rice fields. This is due to the similarity in the periods of activity with winter being off the farm free for ritual and social activities in families and community.
But it is hard work starting at 3 in the morning for both husband and wife working in the rubber plantation, old people taking care of animals and the young children, with older ones alreadybeing away at boarding school by the third grade. So the families are small and there is no land to expand in any way beyond what they own now. These people nevertheless hope that the Kmhmu in northern Laos could enjoy a comparable economic wealth too by following their example of PRIVATE rubber farms versus big company owned farms, but they were disappointed by the fact that others took up the idea and profited not their own people as they had hoped, as Olivier has confirmed for us in his observation. I believe if done right the upland farmers could indeed experience some comparable wealth by using part of their land for rubber. However the problem would be the dependence on others for services with activities they cannot fit into thier schedule such as vegetable growing since gathering would not result to much, when the feorest was turned into plantations apart from a few protected pieces of ritual forest.
Ngarn, your point about what return on investment is required is a good one to ask, but in a capitalist economy the answer has always been “as much as possible”.
The recent trend for corporations to become socially and environmentally responsible is a positive and welcome development. Perhaps BigPharma will catch on to this trend and try to outdo each other in their quest to become the best corporate citizen saving the world’s poor…., but that is probably wishful thinking just like thinking the Junta staged the coup to protect democracy.
[…] Mandala readers keen to follow different arguments on the current patent brawl will find contributions from two of the Thailand-focussed blogs particularly […]
Although I doubt that this campaign will succeed in convincing the stoneheady cultural watchdogs, I do consider it is as extremely important to launch it. Strangely the reactionary view on Thai culture never outdates itself but seem to maintain itself trough the follow-up generations. Those in office surely were more liberal in their young years. But many of the Thais in the thirties are keen to adapt the conservative view – and that is worrying.
Has anybody noticed that we do not live in an economy that is centrally administered by state? This is not about big pharma, but about how our economy works. I have as little right to medicine as I have the right to a car (although I feel the need to have individual transportation) or a book (although I work academically and need it; Ingenta Connect also wants $35 for an article). And if I am hungry, there is no restaurant that will serve me without me being able to pay for my meal. You can introduce what Luhmann called “third values.” But you must be able to translate it into the availability of money. Of course, one can also destroy the advantages of functional differentiation. However, this will–as the examples show–make us worse off, not better of.
‘‘No company will live or die because of high price premiums for Aids drugs in middle-income countries, but patients may’’
Clinton is a hero and Dr Mongkol, maybe he should have tried to negotiate first, even though Abbott Labs is notoriously difficult to negotiate, and it certainly ooks bad when two ministries in the same government have a different policy stance on the same issue. Where did the leadership go?
The US Supreme court took the first step this week to weakening patents which are getting pretty ridiculous, particularly in the software industry, professors like computer scientist Knuth at Stanford being highly critical of them.
But there are a lot less controversial IP issues than pharmaceuticals that just disappear, like the JD Pools case, their inventory of pools seized when Thaksin was still Prime Minister. They are back in operation, but if they did steal the French pool company’s IP then will other similar foreign companies come to Thailand in the future?
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Holiday inn Arlington
Can we invite Justin to post us a summary of the conference from his detailed notes on this blog so we can debate some of the issues in a slightly freer environment than one with the Thai Embassy overseeing proceedings?
The King Never Smiles?
I think your book destroy smile of thai people if you don’t know thai culture and not thai people. Please do not touch our beloved King. and I will tell you my king’s smile is smile of his people.
Holiday inn Arlington
From the TLC list:
Borders of rubber
Hi, I’m an Australian who has been living in Jinghong for over two years now. I speak fluent Chinese (~5-6 years) and some Lao/Thai (intermittent). If anyone’s doing research in the area, please drop me a line by email (supplied but hidden!)
More on patents and capitalism
This is an unfortunate battle. On the one hand, thousands are potentially being denied access to life-prolonging medications. On the other hand, pharmaceutical companies do dedicate a significant amount of time and money to research and development, and the idealistic notion that those companies should simply ignore patent infringement is untenable. By extension, I am reminded of the prior government’s 30 baht-treats-everything policy, wherein the government compelled hospitals to treat patients beyond the hospitals’ budgetary capacities. Even in countries with more developed national health plans, there are limits and restrictions on what treatments one may receive, and when one may receive them.
I also would be curious to find out specific details of HIV treatment in Thailand. Medication regimens are better tolerated nowadays, but still associated with significant side-effects, and poor treatment compliance raises the risk of resistance and a need for (expensive) second-line therapy.
That being said, I do take issue with Thailand Jumped the Shark’s assertion that HIV/AIDS is purely a problem of human behavior, and that safe sex or no sex would bring the problem to a halt. Unknowing recipients of the virus, e.g. a woman acquiring it from her spouse/boyfriend or vertical transmission of the virus from mother to child, deserve no blame for the actions of others.
Has the coup been good for democracy?
Well, the crown prince is certainly guilty of adultery (which is a criminal offense in Thailand), and certainly nobody is going to successfully file charges against him…
I dont think he is the only one – how many have been charged?
What about an anti-coup-coup coup?
Sounds like Klein has gone really soft in the head over Thailand.
>Counter coup is nonsense, as Patiwat said.
> “under the normal party structures, Thaksin would not have been able to orchestrate such a unified amalgamation.”. Perhaps this is the note-taker’s interpretation, but “normal party structures” are what, exactly? The 1997 constitution aimed to force a consodliation of the “too many parties” system which required someone with access to money and the military to pull enough in line to keep a majority. After the new constitution, Thaksin used his money and military pull to consolidate them. Not too different, and there is little reason to believe he or someone else couldn’t pull it off in the future. Of course, the new constitution might push in the opposite direction.
>”this was not a return to the old military interventionist order”. HMMM, it’s a new military interventionist order? Not too different from the last several coups, from what I can see. Even by his definition: The military takes power and has little idea of what to do besides protect their own power and budgets.
> “not an act of deliberate constitutional denial”. Then why did they abrogate the constitution? Because it’s there? Why are they overseeing the writing of a different constitution?
Methinks it is Klein who is in denial, and the Asia Foundation if they continue to pay him. The fact that he would not talk about the monarchy at all out of overwhelming respect shows that he is soft in the head: discussing the king openly if circumspectly is all the rage these days.
Has the coup been good for democracy?
Well, the crown prince is certainly guilty of adultery (which is a criminal offense in Thailand), and certainly nobody is going to successfully file charges against him…
What about an anti-coup-coup coup?
So if “anything done in support of the basic elements of the 1997 constitution would automatically necessitate recognition of the monarchy”, then doesn’t ripping up the 1997 constitution automatically imply treason against the monarchy?
I’ve said it before and I’ve said it again: the military junta has violated the monarchy more than the masterminds of the Finland Plan (assuming the Plan even exists). The military might not be favoring a republican form of government, but they’re certainly doing their worst to make people question the compatibility of the monarchy and a democratic system of government.
What about an anti-coup-coup coup?
Anti-coup coup?! Nonsense!
Thaksin dissolved Parliament in the end of February 2006. His government automatically became a caretaker government, but practically speaking, the day-to-day business of government didn’t change. The opposition boycotted the elections, and in May, the Constitutional Court voided the elections. Fine… the EC set new elections for October.
That’s 8 months with a caretaker government. Thaksin was a caretaker Prime Minister. He didn’t declare himself a permanent Premier, he didn’t cancel elections, and he didn’t violate the constitution. If he did, how come nobody filed charges to the Constitutional Court?
More on patents and capitalism
thanks for the links, Nicholas
Has the coup been good for democracy?
[…] recent post on the Asia Foundation seminar on the Thai coup by James Klein has generated significant discussion. […]
Censorship and Thai cinema
I hope Joe-Apichartpong and his peers won’t stop at this point.
When artists lead, people will follow.
More on patents and capitalism
Thailand Jumped the Shark Blog makes some good points, and that columnist never presents very convincing arguments, but he errs in treating Thai people and Thailand as one monolithic thing. It isn’t.
Thai nationalism constructs an imagine of unity.
But the reality poor people face is quite different.
Nothing is going to change, especially the distribution of income, and prostitution illegal? If you read old articles, the police publicly deny it even exists, but privately at the local level are deeply involved in trafficing and extracting rents from brothels.
If you could somehow take pictures of all these lies and display them all simultaneously, so they could not be denied, they would still be denied.
Furthermore, in all the situations I’ve seen, the person who breaks the law or acts immorally, gets rewarded for it, even promoted, like the mafia, after bloodying your hands.
For instance, in a college a friend of mine taught at, one of the older male teachers was acting as a sort of escort service for his good-looking female students with local businessmen. Did he get sacked? No he got a scholarship to Australia!
Things like this cannot and will not change if people accept them passively and non-confrontationally, but I’ve never seen it otherwise, so they end up getting what they asked for, all over again, like the wheel of samsara.
Religion could be the way out, but the likelihood of everyone simultaneously lead upright lives like Chamlong Sri Muang, so Chamlong could govern them all, and not get kicked out as mayor, not very likely.
Borders of rubber
Dear interesteded people,
thank you for the comments above and this is also in response to Oliviers first comments.
I have visited the Kmhmu’ people in Mengla County of Sipsong Phanna, Yunnan in late 2005. They plant either rubber or tea or both and still have some rice fields as well but do not bother with vegetables or other things like fish ponds or alcohol production much which they leave up to Chinese newcomers to the area. I remarked that the rubber farmers in the villages there did very well in comparison to their relatives in Laos. They said if the people owned their plantation as a family business and delivered the latex to the company, they could do very well. I saw that their villages were more prosperous than any of the Kmhmu’ villages I had seen in Laos. And the people proudly explained that they had ordered this and that like cemented roads themselves and paid themselves. They also can fit the rubber and tea cultures well into their traditional culture keeping their rituals alive amazingly close to how they had it with the rice fields. This is due to the similarity in the periods of activity with winter being off the farm free for ritual and social activities in families and community.
But it is hard work starting at 3 in the morning for both husband and wife working in the rubber plantation, old people taking care of animals and the young children, with older ones alreadybeing away at boarding school by the third grade. So the families are small and there is no land to expand in any way beyond what they own now. These people nevertheless hope that the Kmhmu in northern Laos could enjoy a comparable economic wealth too by following their example of PRIVATE rubber farms versus big company owned farms, but they were disappointed by the fact that others took up the idea and profited not their own people as they had hoped, as Olivier has confirmed for us in his observation. I believe if done right the upland farmers could indeed experience some comparable wealth by using part of their land for rubber. However the problem would be the dependence on others for services with activities they cannot fit into thier schedule such as vegetable growing since gathering would not result to much, when the feorest was turned into plantations apart from a few protected pieces of ritual forest.
Holiday inn Arlington
Ngarn, your point about what return on investment is required is a good one to ask, but in a capitalist economy the answer has always been “as much as possible”.
The recent trend for corporations to become socially and environmentally responsible is a positive and welcome development. Perhaps BigPharma will catch on to this trend and try to outdo each other in their quest to become the best corporate citizen saving the world’s poor…., but that is probably wishful thinking just like thinking the Junta staged the coup to protect democracy.
Holiday inn Arlington
[…] Mandala readers keen to follow different arguments on the current patent brawl will find contributions from two of the Thailand-focussed blogs particularly […]
Censorship and Thai cinema
Although I doubt that this campaign will succeed in convincing the stoneheady cultural watchdogs, I do consider it is as extremely important to launch it. Strangely the reactionary view on Thai culture never outdates itself but seem to maintain itself trough the follow-up generations. Those in office surely were more liberal in their young years. But many of the Thais in the thirties are keen to adapt the conservative view – and that is worrying.
Holiday inn Arlington
Has anybody noticed that we do not live in an economy that is centrally administered by state? This is not about big pharma, but about how our economy works. I have as little right to medicine as I have the right to a car (although I feel the need to have individual transportation) or a book (although I work academically and need it; Ingenta Connect also wants $35 for an article). And if I am hungry, there is no restaurant that will serve me without me being able to pay for my meal. You can introduce what Luhmann called “third values.” But you must be able to translate it into the availability of money. Of course, one can also destroy the advantages of functional differentiation. However, this will–as the examples show–make us worse off, not better of.
Holiday inn Arlington
Like former US President Clinton said yesterday:
‘‘No company will live or die because of high price premiums for Aids drugs in middle-income countries, but patients may’’
Clinton is a hero and Dr Mongkol, maybe he should have tried to negotiate first, even though Abbott Labs is notoriously difficult to negotiate, and it certainly ooks bad when two ministries in the same government have a different policy stance on the same issue. Where did the leadership go?
The US Supreme court took the first step this week to weakening patents which are getting pretty ridiculous, particularly in the software industry, professors like computer scientist Knuth at Stanford being highly critical of them.
But there are a lot less controversial IP issues than pharmaceuticals that just disappear, like the JD Pools case, their inventory of pools seized when Thaksin was still Prime Minister. They are back in operation, but if they did steal the French pool company’s IP then will other similar foreign companies come to Thailand in the future?
http://www.readbangkokpost.com/business/intellectual_property/intellectual_property_or_techn.php