Taxi Driver: It’s not patents that are the problem, but rather what return on investment is required. The return demanded by Big Pharma corporations means they are motivated by making profits, not saving lives (and that required return is after highly paid CEO’s marketers & lobbyists have taken their cut)
#64, Thais revere Bhumipol, not the Institution. However, the “glow” from Bhumipol has rubbed onto the institution and this is what Vachiralongkorn is hoping to capitalise on (unless, of course, a queen regnant is appointed instead!).
Republican/Srithanonchai, Bhumipol is definitely untouchable, regardless of what is written in a constitution. He is untouchable because he is revered by the people. How this reverence came about, of course, if subject to differing opinion (Propaganda? Cult of personality? Geniune leadership? probably a mix of all of these factors).
The next monarch will not enjoy this status, and this is why I have always argued that the real problem facing Thai democracy is the military. Since 1932, they have been the ultimate “ruling force” (or Jao) in Thailand and they don’t have to rely on reverence from the people to maintain control – they have guns and tanks. Letting them back in power in Sept-06 was a major mistake. Genie back out of the bottle and it will take lots of spilt blood to put them back in.
BigPharma are not known for their charity, but I also understand the importance of patent protection.
Drug research & development is a hughly expensive and risky (in terms of potential return on investment) exercise. Just 1 out of every 1,000 compound considered as a drug candidate makes it into human clinical trials, and only 1 in 5 of the drugs that enter human trials eventually become an FDA approved medication. The average drug takes 15 years of development to get to market, and costs up to US$500M per drug to get it there. Once a drug is discovered & approved for marketed, it costs less than 50 cents a tablet to manufacture (i.e. anyone can manufacture & sell a tablet if the formula is known). This is why patent protection is necessary (the average patent lasts 13 years). Without the promise of patent protection, no one (either private or public sector) would embark on a drug development project and no drugs will ever get developed.
Breaking patents is a dangerous path to take. It drives up the cost of capital and can reduce the number of new drugs that otherwise would be develop (e.g. cure for AIDS, cure for cancer). I don’t profess to know what the solution is for getting cheap drugs to the poor, but breaking patents should be the last resort.
Not surprised to see that we again disagree, Republican.
We are talking about peoples lives here – why does there always have to be a profit motive?
Why would life saving drugs need to be marketed?
What sort of investment return is required to fund life saving reseach? Ever heard of philanthropy or public goods?
If a return on funds is required, one alternative to the Big Pharma model could be a government backed bonds funding independent researchers – at least that way the CEO, marketing & lobbying leeches could be cut out of the system, enabling the research to be more focused on needs rather than what will produce the larger profit.
(That’s just off the top of my head today – I’m sure there are many other alternatives to the ‘capitalist free market system’ which so clearly fails to meet the needs of the poor)
Srithanonchai and Republican must be kidding right ? . . about speeding tickets to HMK? Lese stupidus indeed!
Even in USA lowly governors break the speed limits . . Governor Corzine of NJ nearly killed himself recently with an overspeeding SUV (driven by a state trooper), maybe that is why on recovery he volunteered to pay the $46 speeding fine.
But surely guys, every heads of state whether in Mars or Cuba speed up in motorcades. (‘important meetings, what else!) Even lowly ministers and generals in Bangkok have one or two police cops on motorcycles in their own little motorcades!
Because if you do not reward shareholders you have no capital to develop new drugs; if you do not reward CEOs you have no companies to manage R & D, and if you do not reward the marketing people you can’t get your drugs to market. That is, if you do not reward these people the patients will die. It’s all very nice to get on your high moral horse but the fact is that these drugs do not appear out of thin air, but are a product of the capitalist free market system.
So, not only can one not criticize the king, but even if one had irrefutable evidence that he had done something “illegal” (like overthrow a democratically elected government), he could not, on constitutional grounds, be prosecuted? So he is by constitutional definition above the law. Is this standard for constitutional monarchies, or just Thailand? Weren’t some of the British royals charged with drunk driving and other minor offences?
Srithanonchai: Good suggestion – at least it would save on Advertising & CEO expenses which could then be put into lower prices or more research.
Why not reward the researchers and the patients rather than CEO’s, marketing guru’s and shareholders?
“and a new more effective and equitable model for medical research needs to be developed.” >> Good luck, and this would certainly not involve the state bureaucracy, right?
#71: Exactly. The King is untouchable. BTW: Royal motorcades always “speed,” while everybody else has to wait for them to pass. The constitution also says that everybody is equal before the law. However, this applies only to ordinary citizens–see article 8.
I can now begin to appreciate how ‘oppressed’ you must really feel, Republican, that you have to suffer the indignity of having to pull out One Hundred Baht frequently for the corrupt traffic policeman because of minor traffic infractions. But the real tyranny begins to set in when the royal motorcade will speed by and that same traffic policeman will salute, instead of a speeding ticket you feel the royal driver deserves.
Restrain the impulse to lodge a citizen’s complaint Republican, or, General Sondhi will just as surely lock you up for ‘lese stupidus’.
Real NGO or not, it’s clearly a lobbying group involved in a lobbying war. Abbott seems to have picked an easy target to try to improve it’s sullied reputation (see http://www.abbottsgreed.com)
I agree with Bill Clinton that it’s a ‘life or death’ matter.
Hopefully some good will come out of it because clearly the Big Pharma patent protection model is failing to deliver, and a new more effective and equitable model for medical research needs to be developed.
absolutely i love land of thailand ,i love smile of thai people ,culture and my king. i invite you live in thailand for long year ,will understand thai culture.
[…] reviews elsewhere). The current stalemate between the film-maker and the Thai officials has, unsurprisingly, also led to continuing global interest. If you want to read more about the issue from the […]
I can’t say that I agree with your definition of “bash,” Jon. To me, the word “bash” has connotations of irrationality and agressiveness, and while I don’t necessarily agree with USA for Innovation’s arguments, I don’t find them to be irrational nor overtly agressive. The same cannot be said of Jon Ungpakorn’s hysterical ramblings.
To equate any sort of criticism with a negative connotation is…well, very Asian. But let’s stop arguing semantics, shall we? 😉
I do believe that intellectual property laws have been abused by many, many corporations in many, many industries; however, I don’t think intellectual property theft is the answer. I remember my mother teaching me something about how “two wrongs don’t make a right.”
I must admit that I am confused about this statement: “Thailand is a poor country and cannot afford Western medicines.” Yes, it is.
Look up Gini coefficient and inequality.
Most people in the rural neighborhood I am familiar with in Chiang Rai earn no more than 2 to 4,000 baht.
I looked up the Gini coefficients of both Thailand and the United States. According the the US Census Bureau, as of 2005, the Gini coefficient for US families and households was 0.469. According to the National Statistical Office of Thailand, for the year 2005, the Gini coefficient for Thai families and households was 0.433.
If I understand correctly, that means the United States experiences greater economic inequality than Thailand. Perhaps this is due to uninsured, middle-class American families subsidizing cheap, compulsorily licenced drugs for “developing” countries, like Thailand, though the higher costs of medicines in the United States. (Hey, the Pharma companies need to make up some of the loss somehow.)
As for NGOs, I will refrain from further discussion, as any statement I’m likely to make will be shaded by my irrational and agressive hatred for anything connected to the UN.
#69: right, I think that article has been in every Constitution since the December 1932 one. So, my obvious next question would be, supposing the king did something “corrupt” then I assume that he is not prosecutable by law? Or to take a simpler example, if the king was speeding in his yellow Rolls Royce, could he be charged with speeding? This is the famous “King can do no wrong” principle?
“Are universities like the ANU meant to be custodians and promoters of certain values or not?”
The ANU is the last to be concerned with such values.
They have quite a nasty track record when it comes to abusing students and covering it up. That, and I can personally testify that within 6 months of commencing my PhD scholarship I was asked to falsify research to “up the publication rate” (I refused).
As for students who are victims of bullying, I can only quote the ANU’s own legal representative, part of a tirade against a mobbing victim: “we have left you alone and stranded in a foreign country – noone cares what happens to you… the University is most pleased with this outcome. This will never be investigated, ever!”
“Poor” is rather relative. Thailand doesn’t look like Laos or Cambodia. There is also no urgent need to prepare for the next famine in the Silom area or elsewhere in Thailand. Thailand has earned so much money that it was able to substantially reduce the poverty rate (to about 8%, if I remember correctly). I wonder how much medicine could have been bought with the money uselessly spent on the aircraft carrier or for the military coup, for that matter. Thailand is also rich enough to afford that a great degree of the annual budget is corrupted and wasted by inefficiency.
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Holiday inn Arlington
Taxi Driver: It’s not patents that are the problem, but rather what return on investment is required. The return demanded by Big Pharma corporations means they are motivated by making profits, not saving lives (and that required return is after highly paid CEO’s marketers & lobbyists have taken their cut)
Has the coup been good for democracy?
#64, Thais revere Bhumipol, not the Institution. However, the “glow” from Bhumipol has rubbed onto the institution and this is what Vachiralongkorn is hoping to capitalise on (unless, of course, a queen regnant is appointed instead!).
Republican/Srithanonchai, Bhumipol is definitely untouchable, regardless of what is written in a constitution. He is untouchable because he is revered by the people. How this reverence came about, of course, if subject to differing opinion (Propaganda? Cult of personality? Geniune leadership? probably a mix of all of these factors).
The next monarch will not enjoy this status, and this is why I have always argued that the real problem facing Thai democracy is the military. Since 1932, they have been the ultimate “ruling force” (or Jao) in Thailand and they don’t have to rely on reverence from the people to maintain control – they have guns and tanks. Letting them back in power in Sept-06 was a major mistake. Genie back out of the bottle and it will take lots of spilt blood to put them back in.
Holiday inn Arlington
BigPharma are not known for their charity, but I also understand the importance of patent protection.
Drug research & development is a hughly expensive and risky (in terms of potential return on investment) exercise. Just 1 out of every 1,000 compound considered as a drug candidate makes it into human clinical trials, and only 1 in 5 of the drugs that enter human trials eventually become an FDA approved medication. The average drug takes 15 years of development to get to market, and costs up to US$500M per drug to get it there. Once a drug is discovered & approved for marketed, it costs less than 50 cents a tablet to manufacture (i.e. anyone can manufacture & sell a tablet if the formula is known). This is why patent protection is necessary (the average patent lasts 13 years). Without the promise of patent protection, no one (either private or public sector) would embark on a drug development project and no drugs will ever get developed.
Breaking patents is a dangerous path to take. It drives up the cost of capital and can reduce the number of new drugs that otherwise would be develop (e.g. cure for AIDS, cure for cancer). I don’t profess to know what the solution is for getting cheap drugs to the poor, but breaking patents should be the last resort.
Holiday inn Arlington
Not surprised to see that we again disagree, Republican.
We are talking about peoples lives here – why does there always have to be a profit motive?
Why would life saving drugs need to be marketed?
What sort of investment return is required to fund life saving reseach? Ever heard of philanthropy or public goods?
If a return on funds is required, one alternative to the Big Pharma model could be a government backed bonds funding independent researchers – at least that way the CEO, marketing & lobbying leeches could be cut out of the system, enabling the research to be more focused on needs rather than what will produce the larger profit.
(That’s just off the top of my head today – I’m sure there are many other alternatives to the ‘capitalist free market system’ which so clearly fails to meet the needs of the poor)
Has the coup been good for democracy?
Srithanonchai and Republican must be kidding right ? . . about speeding tickets to HMK? Lese stupidus indeed!
Even in USA lowly governors break the speed limits . . Governor Corzine of NJ nearly killed himself recently with an overspeeding SUV (driven by a state trooper), maybe that is why on recovery he volunteered to pay the $46 speeding fine.
But surely guys, every heads of state whether in Mars or Cuba speed up in motorcades. (‘important meetings, what else!) Even lowly ministers and generals in Bangkok have one or two police cops on motorcycles in their own little motorcades!
Holiday inn Arlington
Because if you do not reward shareholders you have no capital to develop new drugs; if you do not reward CEOs you have no companies to manage R & D, and if you do not reward the marketing people you can’t get your drugs to market. That is, if you do not reward these people the patients will die. It’s all very nice to get on your high moral horse but the fact is that these drugs do not appear out of thin air, but are a product of the capitalist free market system.
Has the coup been good for democracy?
So, not only can one not criticize the king, but even if one had irrefutable evidence that he had done something “illegal” (like overthrow a democratically elected government), he could not, on constitutional grounds, be prosecuted? So he is by constitutional definition above the law. Is this standard for constitutional monarchies, or just Thailand? Weren’t some of the British royals charged with drunk driving and other minor offences?
Seminar on Thailand’s southern crisis
I agree, Sawarin.
You may recieve the static data from them!!!!!!!
Holiday inn Arlington
Srithanonchai: Good suggestion – at least it would save on Advertising & CEO expenses which could then be put into lower prices or more research.
Why not reward the researchers and the patients rather than CEO’s, marketing guru’s and shareholders?
Holiday inn Arlington
“and a new more effective and equitable model for medical research needs to be developed.” >> Good luck, and this would certainly not involve the state bureaucracy, right?
Has the coup been good for democracy?
#71: Exactly. The King is untouchable. BTW: Royal motorcades always “speed,” while everybody else has to wait for them to pass. The constitution also says that everybody is equal before the law. However, this applies only to ordinary citizens–see article 8.
Has the coup been good for democracy?
I can now begin to appreciate how ‘oppressed’ you must really feel, Republican, that you have to suffer the indignity of having to pull out One Hundred Baht frequently for the corrupt traffic policeman because of minor traffic infractions. But the real tyranny begins to set in when the royal motorcade will speed by and that same traffic policeman will salute, instead of a speeding ticket you feel the royal driver deserves.
Restrain the impulse to lodge a citizen’s complaint Republican, or, General Sondhi will just as surely lock you up for ‘lese stupidus’.
Holiday inn Arlington
Real NGO or not, it’s clearly a lobbying group involved in a lobbying war. Abbott seems to have picked an easy target to try to improve it’s sullied reputation (see http://www.abbottsgreed.com)
I agree with Bill Clinton that it’s a ‘life or death’ matter.
Hopefully some good will come out of it because clearly the Big Pharma patent protection model is failing to deliver, and a new more effective and equitable model for medical research needs to be developed.
The King Never Smiles?
absolutely i love land of thailand ,i love smile of thai people ,culture and my king. i invite you live in thailand for long year ,will understand thai culture.
The regime’s royal ridicule
[…] reviews elsewhere). The current stalemate between the film-maker and the Thai officials has, unsurprisingly, also led to continuing global interest. If you want to read more about the issue from the […]
Holiday inn Arlington
I can’t say that I agree with your definition of “bash,” Jon. To me, the word “bash” has connotations of irrationality and agressiveness, and while I don’t necessarily agree with USA for Innovation’s arguments, I don’t find them to be irrational nor overtly agressive. The same cannot be said of Jon Ungpakorn’s hysterical ramblings.
To equate any sort of criticism with a negative connotation is…well, very Asian. But let’s stop arguing semantics, shall we? 😉
I do believe that intellectual property laws have been abused by many, many corporations in many, many industries; however, I don’t think intellectual property theft is the answer. I remember my mother teaching me something about how “two wrongs don’t make a right.”
I must admit that I am confused about this statement:
“Thailand is a poor country and cannot afford Western medicines.” Yes, it is.
Look up Gini coefficient and inequality.
Most people in the rural neighborhood I am familiar with in Chiang Rai earn no more than 2 to 4,000 baht.
I looked up the Gini coefficients of both Thailand and the United States. According the the US Census Bureau, as of 2005, the Gini coefficient for US families and households was 0.469. According to the National Statistical Office of Thailand, for the year 2005, the Gini coefficient for Thai families and households was 0.433.
If I understand correctly, that means the United States experiences greater economic inequality than Thailand. Perhaps this is due to uninsured, middle-class American families subsidizing cheap, compulsorily licenced drugs for “developing” countries, like Thailand, though the higher costs of medicines in the United States. (Hey, the Pharma companies need to make up some of the loss somehow.)
As for NGOs, I will refrain from further discussion, as any statement I’m likely to make will be shaded by my irrational and agressive hatred for anything connected to the UN.
Has the coup been good for democracy?
#69: right, I think that article has been in every Constitution since the December 1932 one. So, my obvious next question would be, supposing the king did something “corrupt” then I assume that he is not prosecutable by law? Or to take a simpler example, if the king was speeding in his yellow Rolls Royce, could he be charged with speeding? This is the famous “King can do no wrong” principle?
ANU honours Lee Kuan Yew. Why?
“Are universities like the ANU meant to be custodians and promoters of certain values or not?”
The ANU is the last to be concerned with such values.
They have quite a nasty track record when it comes to abusing students and covering it up. That, and I can personally testify that within 6 months of commencing my PhD scholarship I was asked to falsify research to “up the publication rate” (I refused).
As for students who are victims of bullying, I can only quote the ANU’s own legal representative, part of a tirade against a mobbing victim: “we have left you alone and stranded in a foreign country – noone cares what happens to you… the University is most pleased with this outcome. This will never be investigated, ever!”
Has the coup been good for democracy?
Sri.. Well, the prince does have good taste in women!
Holiday inn Arlington
“Poor” is rather relative. Thailand doesn’t look like Laos or Cambodia. There is also no urgent need to prepare for the next famine in the Silom area or elsewhere in Thailand. Thailand has earned so much money that it was able to substantially reduce the poverty rate (to about 8%, if I remember correctly). I wonder how much medicine could have been bought with the money uselessly spent on the aircraft carrier or for the military coup, for that matter. Thailand is also rich enough to afford that a great degree of the annual budget is corrupted and wasted by inefficiency.