In 1991 the palace-military alliance sparked and fed the sentiment against Chatichai and his “buffet cabinet”, effectively telling the urbanites that these “country bumpkins” were wrecking the state. (see handly’s book on what the king said about chatichai, but apparently never anything against Suchinda and that skinny guy witht he two wives and the big wine glass.) The city people believed this, which effectively was preparation for the coup. What happened last year and this year? Constant palace-military support for the idea that Thaksin was destroying the nation and the middle class’s gravy train.
So have urban Thais really been played against rural Thais, rather than there being a fear with genuine roots?
There was one Thai politician I remember who was ‘servant of the people’. Chamlong Srimuang, former governor of Bangkok and a former General.
Chamlong Srimuang was an extraordinary Street Sweeper. He kept the streets of Bangkok clean and swept out two corrupt vermins: Suchinda and Thaksin . . two ousted corrupt tyrants courtesy of Sweeper Chamlong.
The pro-Thaksins kept trying to denigrate the Thai ‘elites’ because they kicked Thaksin out and approved the coup.
But Vichai’s point is probably more relevant: the Thai middle class just cannot take Thaksin’s disrespect of the Thai constitution and the King any more and just went out in the streets to protest his ouster, then went out to the streets again to welcome the tanks that ushered the junta in. I consider myself middle-class and had it been any other coup but General Sonthi’s (intervention to stop Thaksin), I would have thrown stones, instead of flowers, at the tanks.
Once Thaksin lost the trust of the middle-class he was history. It was never about Thaksin vs. the elites. It was just decent Thais who won’t stand for Thaksin’s nonsense any longer.
Republican you truly are Pissed aren’t you? Well that comes with the territory of supporting a corrupt and a truly manipulative divisive man, Thaksin Shinawatra.
But how in the world Republican could you defend Thaksin Shinawatra as a model of a democratic leader? That I would like to hear from you.
Thaksin Shinawatra and Ferdinand Marcos were exact clones. They tell the whole world they are defenders of democracy while they abuse the constitution to perpetuate their corrupt rules..
Republican claiming the Thaksin regime was transforming politicians to be ‘servants of the people’ is one good early April fool joke but it did succeed to make me laugh out loud and spill my beer. Next thing Republican will claim TRT truly stood for ‘Thai Love (Rak) Thai’, Thaksin’s love boat, the TRT party.
I have read it so what? Some stupid forum (more likely those spiteful pro-Thaksins) bad-mouthing the junta. Nothing new . . what junta termed ‘undercurrents’ but what I term malicious and without credibility.
Interesting concept: ‘Politicians servants of the people’
Would you prefer future military power be exercised for the benefit of a politician rather than for the country/people/king ?
Be careful what you wish for, Republican, you just might get it.
I would like to wish His Majesty a very happy birthday for tuesday, and truly hope he has a trouble free, peaceful year ahead.
Re Patiwat’s question, Australia’s international/development policy towards Laos is governed strictly by what is perceived as in Australia’s best interests. All official aid is directed through Lao government agencies or through NGO’s licenced by the Lao PDR. In this context it is difficult to see how any activity by Lao expats could have an influence, expecially any associated with the previous regime.
I don’t think the 1st/2nd generation Lao-Australians are that active.
Firstly you have to understand that Lao people in general don’t like to talk about history . The one who serves the old government (Royal Lao) or the Americans feel shamed and don’t want to pass this to their kids. It is in human nature that we don’t like to talk about “bad” history, espeially the bad bit that we are a part of. This is not unique to Lao.
We need to face the truth and understand it, this we can share with the younger generation. Without this the 2nd generation are either lost or confused.
We should be brave enough to openly discuss Lao history. There are many publications by foreign authors that give more facts than any books by Lao authors, but some reject the idea that any foreigner can write authoritatively about Lao. It wouldn’t matter who was writing, the Lao don’t want to hear, don’t want to be reminded of their shame.
The 2nd generation simply don’t really know the history, don’t understand their motherland, they are lost and don’t know how to begin to deal with the situation in Lao today. They go back to Lao as a tourist destination, they cultivate no real connection to the country. If only they understood, thye could use their positions, connections, skills to make a difference, here or there.
My concern is the second generation. How can we help them to understand?
Yes, in other words the intellectual arm of the “servants of the king”. Which explains the support most of the academics gave to the royalist coup. In fact, from the wai khru to the graduation ceremony the universities can be seen as just another cog in the monarchy’s formidable propaganda machine. Witness the disgraceful scene of university rectors and other academics now sitting in the junta’s appointed Legislative Council and receiving a fat pay cheque every month for the privilege; one would have thought that there was enough work to do in reforming their own universities than to waste their precious time legitimizing a royalist-military regime by their presence in a legislative body that ultimately has absolutely no power nor mandate. The money must have been just too good to refuse. And they say the politicians are corrupt!
As with so many things in Thailand, the name and the thing are not the same. A university is not a university – at least in the sense of being a place for the free and independent pursuit of knowledge. This explains the extreme reluctance of most academics to engage with the English language scholarly world, because this would open them up to global competition. But in their own system they can be “king”. Proficiency in English is merely a means of gaining an advantage in Thai academic circles, rather than to engage with the global community of scholars. It is no wonder the academics will do whatever it takes to preserve their privileges, including denying the Thai people the right to elect their own government. Thailand, truly the land of kings.
Prawes is truly pathetic; it’s hard to know whether his latest rantings are another sign of early senility or the intellectual corruption that comes from being too close to the monarchy, the font of unreason in Thailand. He is widely ridiculed on Thai academic websites, so in one sense we don’t have to take what he says too seriously, but on the other hand we do, given his influence in the “network”. The real issue is that bureaucrats are not “public servants” but “servants of the king” – the Thai term “kha ratchakan” makes this clear. Politicians on the other hand are, in structural terms (even if not in practice), servants of the people. So there is a natural conflict between the two that has increased over the last two decades with the growing power of elected politicians. There is a symbiotic relationship between the kha ratchakan (including the military and police) and the monarchy, as there is between elected politicians and the people who elect them. A decline in the influence of kha ratchakan directly affects the monarchy’s influence, and vice versa. This is why Prawes and the monarchy’s other cronies are so opposed to elected politicians having any power over the kha ratchakan. And that is why they were so opposed to Thaksin, because that is precisely the transformation that his regime was bringing about.
Thai academia is in a sorry state. So many academics, so few scholars. So many intellectuals, so little intelligence.
There is no incentive for academic rigor. No accountability. No competition. Once you’re hired, you’re hired for life. It’s automatic tenure.
And yet, imagining myself in their shoes, I doubt I will do any better. Maybe when young, and motivated,… but as I get older, the futility of it all, the lazy intellectual climate, the pressing needs for kids and family, career advancement,.. if I start off as a nobody armed with naught but my degree, and not independently wealthy on my own, would I not be tempted to carry water for whatever set of people in power at the moment? How else am I going to step up the social ladder? pay off that condo I bought? sent my kids to decent (ie. private) schools?
Anyway,… if you look at the founding purposes of all the old universities in Thailand, you may not be surprised. These are not found for higher learning and such niceties, it’s plainly a factory to manufacture bureaucrats for the expanding government. The name even said it so in the beginning. I think they have done very well in that regard (churning out lots and lots of bureaucrats with good govt. job placement). The quality is another story. It’s secondary.
Prawase may be old and this clear thinking social critic is never confused. Strengthening the Thai bureaucracy with professional-minded civic-spirited technorats that would not be beholden to politicians is an ideal since Adam.
Let ME simplify — if Thailand can have a dedicated and professionally run department like the American FBI who would go after the corrupt and the ethically confused politicians (we remember Senators, Congressmen and even Presidents who had been investigated and properly impeached due to the FBI), THAT would be the ideal.
Isn’t it ironic? It should have been the midddle-class, those sensible fearless defenders of Thai Democracy (the villagers are much too far from the center of power and would have been much too intimidated) who should have poured out in the streets when those tanks of General Sonthi rolled in the streets of Bangkok. Those middle-class did pour out, but not to protest, but to hang garlands and take photos among the tanks.
That should tell us something about how these sensible Bangkok middle-class view the danger of Thaksin Shinawatra to their democratic ideals, and, how relieved they were that General Sonthi intervened to restore sanity to a deteriorating national situation.
The rural-urban divide was only being provoked by this one man Thaksin Shinawatra, and THAT is what cause the unease among the whole Thai citizenry, urban and rurrals alike.
It is under very unusual circumstance that the middle-class would welcome martial rule, even if that will last only 12 months or so. But Thaksin Shinawatra was very unusual aberration that the middle-class recognized should be promptly be rid of by WHATEVER means.
Well I never thought those old academics can be take so seriously and terrify so many in this forum.
All these social critics would be searching for the magic constitutional formula that would prevent a return of a Thaksin wannabe.
But in the end good sense should prevail in the quest for a Thai constitution that would respond to the wishes of the Thai people. Hope today is my only ally after Thaksin’s corrupt and illegitimate rule that provoked the martial law in the first place.
Will the devil we knew be replaced by a worse demon? I don’t think so. Thaksin was ONE devil in a league by himself.
The King might preach self-sufficiency, but he himself is a billionare, and the Queen is a walking display case for jewelry. She’s literally a shining example for the Thai elite to follow.
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Middle class-military alliance
In 1991 the palace-military alliance sparked and fed the sentiment against Chatichai and his “buffet cabinet”, effectively telling the urbanites that these “country bumpkins” were wrecking the state. (see handly’s book on what the king said about chatichai, but apparently never anything against Suchinda and that skinny guy witht he two wives and the big wine glass.) The city people believed this, which effectively was preparation for the coup. What happened last year and this year? Constant palace-military support for the idea that Thaksin was destroying the nation and the middle class’s gravy train.
So have urban Thais really been played against rural Thais, rather than there being a fear with genuine roots?
Prawase Wasi’s sufficiency democracy
There was one Thai politician I remember who was ‘servant of the people’. Chamlong Srimuang, former governor of Bangkok and a former General.
Chamlong Srimuang was an extraordinary Street Sweeper. He kept the streets of Bangkok clean and swept out two corrupt vermins: Suchinda and Thaksin . . two ousted corrupt tyrants courtesy of Sweeper Chamlong.
Middle class-military alliance
The pro-Thaksins kept trying to denigrate the Thai ‘elites’ because they kicked Thaksin out and approved the coup.
But Vichai’s point is probably more relevant: the Thai middle class just cannot take Thaksin’s disrespect of the Thai constitution and the King any more and just went out in the streets to protest his ouster, then went out to the streets again to welcome the tanks that ushered the junta in. I consider myself middle-class and had it been any other coup but General Sonthi’s (intervention to stop Thaksin), I would have thrown stones, instead of flowers, at the tanks.
Once Thaksin lost the trust of the middle-class he was history. It was never about Thaksin vs. the elites. It was just decent Thais who won’t stand for Thaksin’s nonsense any longer.
Democracy-lite
Republican you truly are Pissed aren’t you? Well that comes with the territory of supporting a corrupt and a truly manipulative divisive man, Thaksin Shinawatra.
But how in the world Republican could you defend Thaksin Shinawatra as a model of a democratic leader? That I would like to hear from you.
Thaksin Shinawatra and Ferdinand Marcos were exact clones. They tell the whole world they are defenders of democracy while they abuse the constitution to perpetuate their corrupt rules..
Prawase Wasi’s sufficiency democracy
Republican claiming the Thaksin regime was transforming politicians to be ‘servants of the people’ is one good early April fool joke but it did succeed to make me laugh out loud and spill my beer. Next thing Republican will claim TRT truly stood for ‘Thai Love (Rak) Thai’, Thaksin’s love boat, the TRT party.
Sufficiency democracy
I have read it so what? Some stupid forum (more likely those spiteful pro-Thaksins) bad-mouthing the junta. Nothing new . . what junta termed ‘undercurrents’ but what I term malicious and without credibility.
Prawase Wasi’s sufficiency democracy
Interesting concept: ‘Politicians servants of the people’
Would you prefer future military power be exercised for the benefit of a politician rather than for the country/people/king ?
Be careful what you wish for, Republican, you just might get it.
I would like to wish His Majesty a very happy birthday for tuesday, and truly hope he has a trouble free, peaceful year ahead.
My secret war
Re Patiwat’s question, Australia’s international/development policy towards Laos is governed strictly by what is perceived as in Australia’s best interests. All official aid is directed through Lao government agencies or through NGO’s licenced by the Lao PDR. In this context it is difficult to see how any activity by Lao expats could have an influence, expecially any associated with the previous regime.
My secret war
I don’t think the 1st/2nd generation Lao-Australians are that active.
Firstly you have to understand that Lao people in general don’t like to talk about history . The one who serves the old government (Royal Lao) or the Americans feel shamed and don’t want to pass this to their kids. It is in human nature that we don’t like to talk about “bad” history, espeially the bad bit that we are a part of. This is not unique to Lao.
We need to face the truth and understand it, this we can share with the younger generation. Without this the 2nd generation are either lost or confused.
We should be brave enough to openly discuss Lao history. There are many publications by foreign authors that give more facts than any books by Lao authors, but some reject the idea that any foreigner can write authoritatively about Lao. It wouldn’t matter who was writing, the Lao don’t want to hear, don’t want to be reminded of their shame.
The 2nd generation simply don’t really know the history, don’t understand their motherland, they are lost and don’t know how to begin to deal with the situation in Lao today. They go back to Lao as a tourist destination, they cultivate no real connection to the country. If only they understood, thye could use their positions, connections, skills to make a difference, here or there.
My concern is the second generation. How can we help them to understand?
Democracy-lite
Yes, in other words the intellectual arm of the “servants of the king”. Which explains the support most of the academics gave to the royalist coup. In fact, from the wai khru to the graduation ceremony the universities can be seen as just another cog in the monarchy’s formidable propaganda machine. Witness the disgraceful scene of university rectors and other academics now sitting in the junta’s appointed Legislative Council and receiving a fat pay cheque every month for the privilege; one would have thought that there was enough work to do in reforming their own universities than to waste their precious time legitimizing a royalist-military regime by their presence in a legislative body that ultimately has absolutely no power nor mandate. The money must have been just too good to refuse. And they say the politicians are corrupt!
As with so many things in Thailand, the name and the thing are not the same. A university is not a university – at least in the sense of being a place for the free and independent pursuit of knowledge. This explains the extreme reluctance of most academics to engage with the English language scholarly world, because this would open them up to global competition. But in their own system they can be “king”. Proficiency in English is merely a means of gaining an advantage in Thai academic circles, rather than to engage with the global community of scholars. It is no wonder the academics will do whatever it takes to preserve their privileges, including denying the Thai people the right to elect their own government. Thailand, truly the land of kings.
Democracy-lite
Posted some thoughts relating to the “Thai-Style” democracy issue on my blog recently.
Prawase Wasi’s sufficiency democracy
Prawes is truly pathetic; it’s hard to know whether his latest rantings are another sign of early senility or the intellectual corruption that comes from being too close to the monarchy, the font of unreason in Thailand. He is widely ridiculed on Thai academic websites, so in one sense we don’t have to take what he says too seriously, but on the other hand we do, given his influence in the “network”. The real issue is that bureaucrats are not “public servants” but “servants of the king” – the Thai term “kha ratchakan” makes this clear. Politicians on the other hand are, in structural terms (even if not in practice), servants of the people. So there is a natural conflict between the two that has increased over the last two decades with the growing power of elected politicians. There is a symbiotic relationship between the kha ratchakan (including the military and police) and the monarchy, as there is between elected politicians and the people who elect them. A decline in the influence of kha ratchakan directly affects the monarchy’s influence, and vice versa. This is why Prawes and the monarchy’s other cronies are so opposed to elected politicians having any power over the kha ratchakan. And that is why they were so opposed to Thaksin, because that is precisely the transformation that his regime was bringing about.
Sufficiency democracy
To khun Vichai N,
Could you please go and read this post and tell me if you know anything about these or if they are true or not? http://www.tmctoday.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=580
Thank you,
Democracy-lite
Thai academia is in a sorry state. So many academics, so few scholars. So many intellectuals, so little intelligence.
There is no incentive for academic rigor. No accountability. No competition. Once you’re hired, you’re hired for life. It’s automatic tenure.
And yet, imagining myself in their shoes, I doubt I will do any better. Maybe when young, and motivated,… but as I get older, the futility of it all, the lazy intellectual climate, the pressing needs for kids and family, career advancement,.. if I start off as a nobody armed with naught but my degree, and not independently wealthy on my own, would I not be tempted to carry water for whatever set of people in power at the moment? How else am I going to step up the social ladder? pay off that condo I bought? sent my kids to decent (ie. private) schools?
Anyway,… if you look at the founding purposes of all the old universities in Thailand, you may not be surprised. These are not found for higher learning and such niceties, it’s plainly a factory to manufacture bureaucrats for the expanding government. The name even said it so in the beginning. I think they have done very well in that regard (churning out lots and lots of bureaucrats with good govt. job placement). The quality is another story. It’s secondary.
“Thai culture” in a Western context…
I am both flattered and surprised that you would consider my post this way. The discussion will be fascinating! Thank you so much!
Peace,
~Chani
Prawase Wasi’s sufficiency democracy
Prawase may be old and this clear thinking social critic is never confused. Strengthening the Thai bureaucracy with professional-minded civic-spirited technorats that would not be beholden to politicians is an ideal since Adam.
Let ME simplify — if Thailand can have a dedicated and professionally run department like the American FBI who would go after the corrupt and the ethically confused politicians (we remember Senators, Congressmen and even Presidents who had been investigated and properly impeached due to the FBI), THAT would be the ideal.
Got it sudseng?
Middle class-military alliance
Isn’t it ironic? It should have been the midddle-class, those sensible fearless defenders of Thai Democracy (the villagers are much too far from the center of power and would have been much too intimidated) who should have poured out in the streets when those tanks of General Sonthi rolled in the streets of Bangkok. Those middle-class did pour out, but not to protest, but to hang garlands and take photos among the tanks.
That should tell us something about how these sensible Bangkok middle-class view the danger of Thaksin Shinawatra to their democratic ideals, and, how relieved they were that General Sonthi intervened to restore sanity to a deteriorating national situation.
The rural-urban divide was only being provoked by this one man Thaksin Shinawatra, and THAT is what cause the unease among the whole Thai citizenry, urban and rurrals alike.
It is under very unusual circumstance that the middle-class would welcome martial rule, even if that will last only 12 months or so. But Thaksin Shinawatra was very unusual aberration that the middle-class recognized should be promptly be rid of by WHATEVER means.
Democracy-lite
Well I never thought those old academics can be take so seriously and terrify so many in this forum.
All these social critics would be searching for the magic constitutional formula that would prevent a return of a Thaksin wannabe.
But in the end good sense should prevail in the quest for a Thai constitution that would respond to the wishes of the Thai people. Hope today is my only ally after Thaksin’s corrupt and illegitimate rule that provoked the martial law in the first place.
Will the devil we knew be replaced by a worse demon? I don’t think so. Thaksin was ONE devil in a league by himself.
Democracy-lite
Actions speak louder than words.
The King might preach self-sufficiency, but he himself is a billionare, and the Queen is a walking display case for jewelry. She’s literally a shining example for the Thai elite to follow.
Democracy-lite
Republican, regarding the attitudes of most of academia, I agree with you 100%.