It’s early days yet – they appear to have good intentions, but are getting pulled is several directions trying to please everyone (including foreign academics with their ‘democracy’ mantra).
For instance, take the situation in the south.
They change tack and try to be reasonable in their dealings in the region -> which leads the extremists to get worried that they will lose the hearts & minds of the general population so they step up the attacks –> then all the anti junta commentators jump and say look the situation in the south is worse.
Resolving the southern situation will take a long time, and can only be achieved if the authorities act fairly in their dealings for a sustained period (perpetually) until eventually the moderates in the population will weed out the extremists themselves.
Theres no quick fix, and I am not advocating acting soft on terrorists – they need to be tough, but fair (consistently).
More detailed demographics would be a good research project. I looked around them during the political turmoil this year and couldn’t find them. Surely, they must exist privately. Thaksin was said to have used market research techniques. Besides the obvious geography factor, what other factors were associated with beign pro- or anti-TRT? Like why taxi drivers?
I’ve posted on this topic before – you are looking at the wrong transaction.
You need to look at the Ample Rich transactions – there was an obvious scheme to avoid tax.
So you think using tax haven companies, nominees/maids etc to avoid tax (and scrutiny) is acceptable behaviour for a prime minister?
All this from a so called champion of the rural poor!
Taxi Driver:
Not necessarily “ngoh”
They could be either very stupid for continuing to support Thaksin once he showed that he was just in politics for himself and his cronies to make a power/money grab
OR
They are somewhat smarter ( or disillusioned with politics) and realise that, based on past history, virtually all thai politicians are similarly corrupt and at least Thaksin passed on some of the leftovers to them.
I basically agree with your thoughts on leaving a stable Thailand for future generations – I just happen to think there is more chance of that with Thaksin gone.
But isn’t the junta agravating the divide by limiting the representation of the provinces? They might be doing it with good intentions, rather than their own greed, but their still making the situation worse, IMO.
[…] Now, in the post-coup climate, some of the details of “democracy-lite” are starting to emerge. A few days ago we had Prawase Wasi’s proposal for downgrading the power of politicians. And today, Bangkok Pundit has a great post about the latest academic proposals for non-electoral democracy. Thank goodness Thailand is well supplied with these great academic thinkers because those silly villagers seem to have the crazy idea that “democracy is equivalent to elections.” […]
[…] In my very first New Mandala post (from June 2006) I wrote: Many of Thailand’s pro-democracy commentators seem to be promoting a form of democracy-lite in which democracy is embodied in bureaucratic institutions based in Bangkok. Popular election by all Thai people is an inconvenient add-on that hampers the potential for benign leadership from Bangkok, whether it be in its bureaucratic, Royal, military or even academic form. […]
It’s not your maturity that’s the problem – it’s your sad hold on the truth.
For the thousandth time….. Thailand doesn’t have a capital gains tax for individual asset sales in the stock market. It’s not just Thaksin – nobody has to pay this tax.
Sales of noodles aren’t charged a capital gains tax either – they get a VAT or a corporate income tax. These have nothing to do with capital gains.
1) Did you teach at a public or private university? I’ve found that even though public universities are much cheaper than private universities, it is much harder for kids who didn’t graduate from a top high-school/cram-school to get in. The ironic result is that the only choice that most rural kids had for a university education was Ram/Mor Sor Thor or one of the expensive private universities. This has changed a bit with the transformation of the Teaching Colleges into Rajabhat Universities.
2) Do you think that the Thaksin-era reforms of the university entrance system will have any effect on the rural/urban divide in universities? What do you think of the argument that this will reduce educational standards? Thaksin forced high-school results to be used as part of the entrance criteria, rather than purely the entrance exam. The goal was to even the playing field. But it was criticized, by letting too many (rural) students who did well in high-school but didn’t do so well in the national entrance system into the elite public universities.
Do you mean voters are too “ngoh” and that’s why they keep on voting in corrupt politicians? (Isn’t this exactly the problematic ‘elitist’ viewpoint I was talking about?)
It is hardly fair or constructive to blame Thai voters (and presumably you are one yourself) entirely for the problem of corruption in Thailand. Its the corrupt politicians & generals who are at fault, and the ones who should be prosecuted. If a political party or candidate offers bribes to voters at the ballot box, then should not that party or candidate be prosecuted? (rather than simply blame voters who “continue to elect corrupt politicians”)
If the current establishment who are in power in Thailand wish to leave a stable and secure Thailand for future Thai generations, one of the most important things they can do now (its not too late) is to geniunely begin a process to change the Thai society from one where those who are rich and powerful through criminal or corrupt means are immune from the law, to one where the law is enforced and applied more equally on all citizens. It is undoutedly not an easy task, but the moral force of the current leaders can surely carry it a long way. Question is, will the “establishment” have the will or courage to risk it.
It’s not that the urban-rural divide is a product of Thaksin’s populist manipulation, but rather that Thaksin used that divide to further his own selfish money & power grab.
[…] No, it’s not about Thailand’s 2006 coup but the coup of 1991. The quote comes from Anek Laothamatas’ 1996 “A tale of two democracies” in The Politics of Elections in Southeast Asia edited by R. H. Taylor. Those who think that a sense of rural-urban divide is a product of Thaksin’s populist manipulation would do well to read the article in full. You don’t have to agree with everything in Anek’s portrayal of voting behaviour to appreciate that he is pointing to a fundamentally important dynamic in Thai political life. […]
Achaan Jon wrote: “As someone who laboured for two years at a Thai university teaching macroeconomics and supervising the business English program with 20+ teachers, everyone of the 600+ sophomores at the university attending, writing the syllabus, curriculum, and assessment plans, writing every midterm and final exam, grading 200 to 350 students every semester, I can honestly say that **there is a radical rural-urban divide in terms of academic performance and sophistication**, and that this probably has an effect on the jobs they can get”
I dare say that when I was teaching back in the late 1980s the divide was perhaps greater than even today. One early rainy season class day (early summer) I walked into the classroom rather bent over in discomfort as I had helped my in-laws with the rice planting the day before and I was living and painful proof that Farangs have little business trying to plant rice. My students were in absolute disbelief that I had spent the day in the padi fields and so I asked how many of them had ever helped relatives plant rice. The sad fact was not a single student had ever planted rice. Later I found a few minority kids at Mae Jo who had planted rice, but not a single Thai student.
I might read Mr Handley’s book, but only if I see it at a library as I am not inclined to pay him for it.
The King may not smile, but he is human, and admits that he can make mistakes.
It is clear from his actions that the King has the best interests of his country at heart, but one has to wonder at the intentions of those who choose to criticise the King.
Why is it that the academics at this site choose to criticise the king, the coup and the urban elite, but generally leave Thaksin alone just because he won a majority of the votes?
Have a look at Andrew’s response the the following questions posed by Thai in Seattle:
Do you know how Thaksin & his cronies had manipulated Thai Constitution, laws (election & others) & annual budget for their personal & political party gains? THIS IS A COMPLEX ISSUE!
Do you think Thaksin did not engage in monopolistic business practices? MONOPOLISTIC? I DON’T THINK SO. BUT, AGAIN, NEW MANDALA WOULD WELCOME A POST ON THESE BUSINESS ISSUES.
Do you think it is right and fair to exempt Thaksin from paying capital gain tax from his $1.7 billion sales of assets while the agents of the Dept of Revenue were sent to count the numbers of bowl of noodle sold in the noodle shops? RIGHT? FAIR? LEGAL? MORAL? THESE ARE ALL RATHER DIFFERENT ISSUES. BUT, I AGREE, BOWLS OF NOODLES SHOULD NOT BE COUNTED UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!
I’m just waiting to James Haughton to chime in and tell me I have all the maturity of a fourteen year old.
Taxi Driver said:
“If Thais continue to believe that its OK for elected governments, no matter how corrupt the administration or the voting process that got them into office, can be overthrown by the royalist establishment at whim, then Thais will never develop and strengthen the institutions that can protect them from such excesses, and they will continue to remain dependent on a “white knight” to be their ultimate check & balance.”
The ‘white night’ would not be needed if Thais did not continue to elect corrupt polticians.
Well, Vichai N, you’re really judging people from stereotypes and your preconceived notion. I didn’t really tell anything much about myself but you already draw a picture of what kind of people I’m supposed to be.
I don’t take any pleasure from being proved right or won the debate or whatever. If what we’re talking about in this post is really a problem, you can keep believing otherwise and yelling at everyone but the problem won’t go away. All I care is for this problem to be addressed while it’s still at an addressable state. That’s not likely to happen unfortunately.
Vichai N, I don’t believe there’s anything magical or exceptional about Thai society, and we’re not immune from the problems other societies experience. All societies in history go through period of prosperity and decline when they become decadent (not just morally but in a broader sense), Invariably, this always has to do with resources (mis)allocation. Siam/Thailand has been fortunate for two centuries (btw, the longest stretch of relative peace in the history of the Tai race?) but there’s a lot of strain right now. It’s about time for a reform.
, or bust.
Bystander if you can easily be smitten by a flamboyant deceiver like Andrew Walker, then I won’t get in the way.
Andrew Walker had already concluded months ago that HMK’s Sufficiency Economy was crafted to keep the Thai village poor in poverty limbo.(To this day, Andrew Walker had not articulated to me how he arrived at that conclusion). Now he wants to hypnotize you with his convoluted prose that rurals and urbans are BATTLING for scarce resources that is causing this deep divide in Thai society. Bah!
I sense malice in this Aussie Andrew Walker’s repeating thread about elites against villagers, us against them, urbans intent on disenfranchising the rurals. Bah!
Bystander if all your source of truth is from the internet and Andrew Walker, then your guillibility is beyond cure. Take a walk man, go to the villages and smell the flowers! There is a serenity, peace and harmony among the Thais that even a mega-thief like Thaksin won’t be able to corrupt.
To Thai in Seattle:
Presumably you consider yourself more educated than “most if not all cab drivers in Thailand” hence your derision of their views/opinions. Does this mean that persons who are more educated than you (I’m guessing, for example, the people who host this blog site) should therefore consider your opinion worthless?
This elitist attitude is part of the problem faced by Thailand. Rural voters are considered too “ngoh” to be able to vote wisely, and are “ngoh” enough to be duped to sell their vote for a few hundred baht. Has it crossed the elitists’ mind that maybe the rural voters are capable of exercising choice and their actions are entirely rational? Maybe a few hundred baht earned for a vote is more valuable than a vote for a politician that will never truely represent them anyway.
It is true that the quality, moral and ethical standard of most Thai politicians is very low. Not many enter politics to truely represent their constituency (its usually the other way round). But coup d’tats are not the long term solution to this problem. If Thais continue to believe that its OK for elected governments, no matter how corrupt the administration or the voting process that got them into office, can be overthrown by the royalist establishment at whim, then Thais will never develop and strengthen the institutions that can protect them from such excesses, and they will continue to remain dependent on a “white knight” to be their ultimate check & balance. What if next time there is no white knight, or if the next white knight turns out to be a black knight?
The next generation of Thais, including those who will become army generals, have just been shown that its OK to overthow an elected government because “they know how to represent the people better”.
All corrupt politicians (and Thaksin is by no means the first nor the last) should be brought to justice. The law must be enforced equally no matter if you’re a farmer, a taxi driver, a khon ruey, politician or a big shot army/police general (or sons of one who can shoot people to death in bars). This is what the current self-proclaimed moral leaders of the junta should at least set in motion and try to lay as the foundation for a secure and stable Thailand.
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Middle class-military alliance
It’s early days yet – they appear to have good intentions, but are getting pulled is several directions trying to please everyone (including foreign academics with their ‘democracy’ mantra).
For instance, take the situation in the south.
They change tack and try to be reasonable in their dealings in the region -> which leads the extremists to get worried that they will lose the hearts & minds of the general population so they step up the attacks –> then all the anti junta commentators jump and say look the situation in the south is worse.
Resolving the southern situation will take a long time, and can only be achieved if the authorities act fairly in their dealings for a sustained period (perpetually) until eventually the moderates in the population will weed out the extremists themselves.
Theres no quick fix, and I am not advocating acting soft on terrorists – they need to be tough, but fair (consistently).
Middle class-military alliance
More detailed demographics would be a good research project. I looked around them during the political turmoil this year and couldn’t find them. Surely, they must exist privately. Thaksin was said to have used market research techniques. Besides the obvious geography factor, what other factors were associated with beign pro- or anti-TRT? Like why taxi drivers?
The King Never Smiles?
I’ve posted on this topic before – you are looking at the wrong transaction.
You need to look at the Ample Rich transactions – there was an obvious scheme to avoid tax.
So you think using tax haven companies, nominees/maids etc to avoid tax (and scrutiny) is acceptable behaviour for a prime minister?
All this from a so called champion of the rural poor!
Charles Keyes on Sondhi Limthongkul
Taxi Driver:
Not necessarily “ngoh”
They could be either very stupid for continuing to support Thaksin once he showed that he was just in politics for himself and his cronies to make a power/money grab
OR
They are somewhat smarter ( or disillusioned with politics) and realise that, based on past history, virtually all thai politicians are similarly corrupt and at least Thaksin passed on some of the leftovers to them.
I basically agree with your thoughts on leaving a stable Thailand for future generations – I just happen to think there is more chance of that with Thaksin gone.
Middle class-military alliance
But isn’t the junta agravating the divide by limiting the representation of the provinces? They might be doing it with good intentions, rather than their own greed, but their still making the situation worse, IMO.
Prawase Wasi’s sufficiency democracy
Prawase is the big problem of Thai politic.
He speak for dictator.He also think the election by people not the real democracy. He too old and confuse.
Prawase Wasi’s sufficiency democracy
[…] Now, in the post-coup climate, some of the details of “democracy-lite” are starting to emerge. A few days ago we had Prawase Wasi’s proposal for downgrading the power of politicians. And today, Bangkok Pundit has a great post about the latest academic proposals for non-electoral democracy. Thank goodness Thailand is well supplied with these great academic thinkers because those silly villagers seem to have the crazy idea that “democracy is equivalent to elections.” […]
Some thoughts on the political crisis in Thailand
[…] In my very first New Mandala post (from June 2006) I wrote: Many of Thailand’s pro-democracy commentators seem to be promoting a form of democracy-lite in which democracy is embodied in bureaucratic institutions based in Bangkok. Popular election by all Thai people is an inconvenient add-on that hampers the potential for benign leadership from Bangkok, whether it be in its bureaucratic, Royal, military or even academic form. […]
The King Never Smiles?
It’s not your maturity that’s the problem – it’s your sad hold on the truth.
For the thousandth time….. Thailand doesn’t have a capital gains tax for individual asset sales in the stock market. It’s not just Thaksin – nobody has to pay this tax.
Sales of noodles aren’t charged a capital gains tax either – they get a VAT or a corporate income tax. These have nothing to do with capital gains.
The fear of the rural
John, two questions:
1) Did you teach at a public or private university? I’ve found that even though public universities are much cheaper than private universities, it is much harder for kids who didn’t graduate from a top high-school/cram-school to get in. The ironic result is that the only choice that most rural kids had for a university education was Ram/Mor Sor Thor or one of the expensive private universities. This has changed a bit with the transformation of the Teaching Colleges into Rajabhat Universities.
2) Do you think that the Thaksin-era reforms of the university entrance system will have any effect on the rural/urban divide in universities? What do you think of the argument that this will reduce educational standards? Thaksin forced high-school results to be used as part of the entrance criteria, rather than purely the entrance exam. The goal was to even the playing field. But it was criticized, by letting too many (rural) students who did well in high-school but didn’t do so well in the national entrance system into the elite public universities.
Charles Keyes on Sondhi Limthongkul
Nganadeeleg #35
Do you mean voters are too “ngoh” and that’s why they keep on voting in corrupt politicians? (Isn’t this exactly the problematic ‘elitist’ viewpoint I was talking about?)
It is hardly fair or constructive to blame Thai voters (and presumably you are one yourself) entirely for the problem of corruption in Thailand. Its the corrupt politicians & generals who are at fault, and the ones who should be prosecuted. If a political party or candidate offers bribes to voters at the ballot box, then should not that party or candidate be prosecuted? (rather than simply blame voters who “continue to elect corrupt politicians”)
If the current establishment who are in power in Thailand wish to leave a stable and secure Thailand for future Thai generations, one of the most important things they can do now (its not too late) is to geniunely begin a process to change the Thai society from one where those who are rich and powerful through criminal or corrupt means are immune from the law, to one where the law is enforced and applied more equally on all citizens. It is undoutedly not an easy task, but the moral force of the current leaders can surely carry it a long way. Question is, will the “establishment” have the will or courage to risk it.
Middle class-military alliance
It’s not that the urban-rural divide is a product of Thaksin’s populist manipulation, but rather that Thaksin used that divide to further his own selfish money & power grab.
Can you see the difference?
The fear of the rural
[…] No, it’s not about Thailand’s 2006 coup but the coup of 1991. The quote comes from Anek Laothamatas’ 1996 “A tale of two democracies” in The Politics of Elections in Southeast Asia edited by R. H. Taylor. Those who think that a sense of rural-urban divide is a product of Thaksin’s populist manipulation would do well to read the article in full. You don’t have to agree with everything in Anek’s portrayal of voting behaviour to appreciate that he is pointing to a fundamentally important dynamic in Thai political life. […]
The fear of the rural
Achaan Jon wrote: “As someone who laboured for two years at a Thai university teaching macroeconomics and supervising the business English program with 20+ teachers, everyone of the 600+ sophomores at the university attending, writing the syllabus, curriculum, and assessment plans, writing every midterm and final exam, grading 200 to 350 students every semester, I can honestly say that **there is a radical rural-urban divide in terms of academic performance and sophistication**, and that this probably has an effect on the jobs they can get”
I dare say that when I was teaching back in the late 1980s the divide was perhaps greater than even today. One early rainy season class day (early summer) I walked into the classroom rather bent over in discomfort as I had helped my in-laws with the rice planting the day before and I was living and painful proof that Farangs have little business trying to plant rice. My students were in absolute disbelief that I had spent the day in the padi fields and so I asked how many of them had ever helped relatives plant rice. The sad fact was not a single student had ever planted rice. Later I found a few minority kids at Mae Jo who had planted rice, but not a single Thai student.
Charles Keyes on Sondhi Limthongkul
I meant ‘white knight’.
The King Never Smiles?
I might read Mr Handley’s book, but only if I see it at a library as I am not inclined to pay him for it.
The King may not smile, but he is human, and admits that he can make mistakes.
It is clear from his actions that the King has the best interests of his country at heart, but one has to wonder at the intentions of those who choose to criticise the King.
Why is it that the academics at this site choose to criticise the king, the coup and the urban elite, but generally leave Thaksin alone just because he won a majority of the votes?
Have a look at Andrew’s response the the following questions posed by Thai in Seattle:
Do you know how Thaksin & his cronies had manipulated Thai Constitution, laws (election & others) & annual budget for their personal & political party gains? THIS IS A COMPLEX ISSUE!
Do you think Thaksin did not engage in monopolistic business practices? MONOPOLISTIC? I DON’T THINK SO. BUT, AGAIN, NEW MANDALA WOULD WELCOME A POST ON THESE BUSINESS ISSUES.
Do you think it is right and fair to exempt Thaksin from paying capital gain tax from his $1.7 billion sales of assets while the agents of the Dept of Revenue were sent to count the numbers of bowl of noodle sold in the noodle shops? RIGHT? FAIR? LEGAL? MORAL? THESE ARE ALL RATHER DIFFERENT ISSUES. BUT, I AGREE, BOWLS OF NOODLES SHOULD NOT BE COUNTED UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!
I’m just waiting to James Haughton to chime in and tell me I have all the maturity of a fourteen year old.
Charles Keyes on Sondhi Limthongkul
Taxi Driver said:
“If Thais continue to believe that its OK for elected governments, no matter how corrupt the administration or the voting process that got them into office, can be overthrown by the royalist establishment at whim, then Thais will never develop and strengthen the institutions that can protect them from such excesses, and they will continue to remain dependent on a “white knight” to be their ultimate check & balance.”
The ‘white night’ would not be needed if Thais did not continue to elect corrupt polticians.
The fear of the rural
Well, Vichai N, you’re really judging people from stereotypes and your preconceived notion. I didn’t really tell anything much about myself but you already draw a picture of what kind of people I’m supposed to be.
I don’t take any pleasure from being proved right or won the debate or whatever. If what we’re talking about in this post is really a problem, you can keep believing otherwise and yelling at everyone but the problem won’t go away. All I care is for this problem to be addressed while it’s still at an addressable state. That’s not likely to happen unfortunately.
Vichai N, I don’t believe there’s anything magical or exceptional about Thai society, and we’re not immune from the problems other societies experience. All societies in history go through period of prosperity and decline when they become decadent (not just morally but in a broader sense), Invariably, this always has to do with resources (mis)allocation. Siam/Thailand has been fortunate for two centuries (btw, the longest stretch of relative peace in the history of the Tai race?) but there’s a lot of strain right now. It’s about time for a reform.
, or bust.
The fear of the rural
Bystander if you can easily be smitten by a flamboyant deceiver like Andrew Walker, then I won’t get in the way.
Andrew Walker had already concluded months ago that HMK’s Sufficiency Economy was crafted to keep the Thai village poor in poverty limbo.(To this day, Andrew Walker had not articulated to me how he arrived at that conclusion). Now he wants to hypnotize you with his convoluted prose that rurals and urbans are BATTLING for scarce resources that is causing this deep divide in Thai society. Bah!
I sense malice in this Aussie Andrew Walker’s repeating thread about elites against villagers, us against them, urbans intent on disenfranchising the rurals. Bah!
Bystander if all your source of truth is from the internet and Andrew Walker, then your guillibility is beyond cure. Take a walk man, go to the villages and smell the flowers! There is a serenity, peace and harmony among the Thais that even a mega-thief like Thaksin won’t be able to corrupt.
Charles Keyes on Sondhi Limthongkul
To Thai in Seattle:
Presumably you consider yourself more educated than “most if not all cab drivers in Thailand” hence your derision of their views/opinions. Does this mean that persons who are more educated than you (I’m guessing, for example, the people who host this blog site) should therefore consider your opinion worthless?
This elitist attitude is part of the problem faced by Thailand. Rural voters are considered too “ngoh” to be able to vote wisely, and are “ngoh” enough to be duped to sell their vote for a few hundred baht. Has it crossed the elitists’ mind that maybe the rural voters are capable of exercising choice and their actions are entirely rational? Maybe a few hundred baht earned for a vote is more valuable than a vote for a politician that will never truely represent them anyway.
It is true that the quality, moral and ethical standard of most Thai politicians is very low. Not many enter politics to truely represent their constituency (its usually the other way round). But coup d’tats are not the long term solution to this problem. If Thais continue to believe that its OK for elected governments, no matter how corrupt the administration or the voting process that got them into office, can be overthrown by the royalist establishment at whim, then Thais will never develop and strengthen the institutions that can protect them from such excesses, and they will continue to remain dependent on a “white knight” to be their ultimate check & balance. What if next time there is no white knight, or if the next white knight turns out to be a black knight?
The next generation of Thais, including those who will become army generals, have just been shown that its OK to overthow an elected government because “they know how to represent the people better”.
All corrupt politicians (and Thaksin is by no means the first nor the last) should be brought to justice. The law must be enforced equally no matter if you’re a farmer, a taxi driver, a khon ruey, politician or a big shot army/police general (or sons of one who can shoot people to death in bars). This is what the current self-proclaimed moral leaders of the junta should at least set in motion and try to lay as the foundation for a secure and stable Thailand.