I am not so sure either, Naphat. As you say, 70 yrs ago, it might be OK to strip rural their power in influencing politic. But today, with instant communication and widespread news. Frankly, I hope the time bomb is NOT ticking. If it does, then admittedly Marxist is probably right(in a way).
There are a few interesting points about the rubber trade in Laos that I’ve come across in research recently. First, it works well as an upland crop – unlike many other opium substitutes, which require the growers to relocate to the lowlands. Second, it’s being mostly driven by private investors from China, not the aid/ngo opium replacement programs which on balance seem to fail more often than they succeed – perhaps because they start with growing a crop and then try to find a market, whereas the chinese are starting with market demand. Third, they farm on contract: they have prices set in advance so (provided they can grow the amount specified) it’s a much more secure source of income to other crops.
Of course, rubber’s not the only contract cash crop being driven by the Chinese – see Lyttleton’s paper on “Watermelons, bars and trucks”.
On an anthro-theory point, Grant Evans argued that contract farming would be popular with Lao peasants in Lao peasants under socialism, 20 years ago now, based on his reading of Chayanov who recommended it as a way to connect subsistence farmers to the market. Looks like events have born him out.
[…] Thanks, again, to Patiwat, for drawing our attention to a key political statement, this time from “respected intellectual” Prawase Wasi. The Nation carries a summary of Prawase’s manifesto for what I like to call “sufficiency democracy“: The new constitution should reduce the power and number of MPs and help bureaucrats be independent from politicians, respected intellectual Dr Prawase Wasi suggested yesterday. Prawase said society had to admit that politicians – who are elected to represent the people – create problems.”They neither have the knowledge nor the competency. They are only interested in making connections in order to get into the House. It is more suitable to call them election winners,’’ he said. MPs or politicians should not be empowered to be executives. “Their role should be limited to writing policies.” […]
Vichai, I’m not gleeful at any of those atrocities – re-read my post.
And why should I be chearing Sonthi, when a week after his “revelations”, over a thousand schools are closing down until further notice because of escalating violence? Sonthi expressed remorse over Black May as well, but that didn’t bring back the lives of the people who his soldiers shot.
If Sonthi is so remorseful about the atrocities committed by the Army in the South, then why isn’t he prosecuting the people who gave the order to shoot at Krue Sae and piled up the protestors at Tak Bai?
Remorse isn’t helping the problem in the south – if anything, it’s making things worse. I want results, not PR.
Jon, I didn’t mention parallels between the the current populist-elitist transition and the Por-Sarit transition because I really see no simple or straight-forward parallels.
– Populism, in the modern sense of a coordinated series of policies specifically designed to benefit the rural poor rather than the economy as a whole, didn’t exist back then.
– Both Por and Sarit emphasized “development” in general, although I really don’t think they ever framed development in populist terms.
– That being said, the tyrants did help bring Thailand’s education level to reasonable levels and electrified most of the country.
– A major factor in the economy back then was US government aid. This certainly led to lots of infrastructure and economic development (particularly near US bases), but I wouldn’t really call that populism.
If anybody can better identify populist policies in the pre-1980s era or show a clear transition in economic policy between Por and Sarit, please do so.
Prawase Wasi has made comments that support this “fear of the rural” idea in his recent proposals for the next constitution. He suggests that the power and number of MPs should be reduced, and that the central bureaucracy be independent from politicians.
90% of MPs come from rural provinces. MPs are directly elected by the public.
“They neither have the knowledge nor the competency. They are only interested in making connections in order to get into the House. It is more suitable to call them election winners,” he said about MPs.
“I propose that bureaucrats should be independent from politicians, who can no longer be removed or transferred from the post, because if the bureaucrats are strong, they can keep a check on politicians.”
It is often hard for rural Thai perceptions of the urban folks to strike an appropriate middle ground. On the one hand there is the romantic imagery of honest and hard working city workers living a modern life surrounded by the fruits of development, in harmony with the invisible hand of the omniscient market. On the other hand there are images of a money hungry rabble casting aside cultural traditions in pursuit of easy cash and exotic mia nois. Both images are politically disempowering. The former suggests that urban folk have little interest in modern politics except in the form of “resistance” when rural concerns are discussed. The later suggests that their interest in politics is exhausted once sufficient money has been spent for votes.
I hope I am not accused of lese majeste, but methinks HRM forgets the long history of dancing girls at local Thai cultural and religious festivities. I just see these “dancers” as the modern day version of the ramwong girls; the attire (a tad more scanty) and the music (much different) have changed, but the charges of overly risque dancers transcend time and place. As for these “coyote” girls, it usually takes either a corporate sponsor or a wealthy patron to enable such entertainment to take place. I daresay most rural temple fairs I’ve visited in the past, well l had no such luck in finding such ahaan taa (eye candy) although entertainment, such as attractive singers and a band, were common .
I don’t know, fall – why have a negative image of a ticking time bomb hanging over all this rural empowerment? After 70 or so years of ‘democracy’ it seems like we still are repeating the People’s Party’s line that the rural population is not yet ready for democracy.
Patiwat sounded somewhat gleeful that past Thai leaders who committed atrocities had been let off easy in the past. Maybe not this time Patiwat. Thaksin Shinawatra and his extrajudicial police generals, and his, extrajudicial military generals, may yet be tried for their horrific crimes because Thai people are no longer so forgiving (despite the Patiwat cheers) nor that naive.
Patiwat I thought you are the one who seek pragmatic solutions to end the breakdown of law and order at the South? Then why are you are not cheering General Sonthi’s revelations about the Thaksin government’s executions of the Muslim prisoners repatriated from Malaysia?
Those revelations by General Sonthi demonstrated sincere remorse to add substance to the profuse apologies to the Southern Muslims by PM Surayud a few days ago. Winning back the trust of the Southern Muslims would be extremely difficult after years of Thaksin savage treatment of the suspected insurgents-prisoners, many believed to have been tortured, executed and disappeareds. General Sonthi’s revelations was an excellent gesture and shows this junta/Surayud’s government’s firm intentions to win back the trust from the Southern people so severely fractured by Thaksin’s abuses.
[…] New Mandala links to a video from May 1992 that shows Thai soldiers kicking and beating people who were protesting against the government then. The soldiers were under the ultimate command of Surayud Chulanont, the current prime minister of Thailand. Preetam Rai […]
[…] Tonight, University of Wisconsin-Madison professor, Thongchai Winichakul will be lecturing in London on the topic, “Thailand’s Coup: A Step Forward in a Dangerous Direction“.┬ ┬ The talk will be held at the Royal Asiatic Society,┬ 14 Stephenson Way, London NW1 2HD , from 5-7pm. […]
I find it incomprehensible that you make no mention of the so-called “populist” economic policies ranging from rice price support-subsidies to the village funds. Does the current administration’s concerted efforts to end most of these, except for 30 baht healthcare, have any parallel from the past?
Surayud has always denied giving the order for his men to shoot – I remember an interview he gave for Time magazine where he specifically denied it. Yet the public forgave him for the atrocities performed by his troops.
It’s interesting to compare this with some other state atrocities committed since then. The junta has announced they will continue investigations for atrocities committed during Thaksin’s War on Drugs. Although investigations into the Krue Sae Mosque massacre have clearly fingered Pallop Pinmanee as the person who ordered soliders to shoot, criminal charges have never been filed against him. Same thing for the Tak Bai tragedy. Nobody at ISOC was ever charged for the “Red Tank” murders during the 1970’s either. And I don’t recall a single Krating Daeng or Navapol leader was charged for the 6 October Massacre.
It seems that Thais are very forgiving to their leaders when they order atrocities, doesn’t it?
Even God cast out Eve and Adam after they tasted the apple.
Is it possible to put the rural back in their place once they have tasted the fruit?
Did I hear a time bomb that ticking?
[…] It is often hard for urban Thai perceptions of the rural to strike an appropriate middle ground. On the one hand there is the romantic imagery of honest and hard working agriculturalists living simple and sufficient lives, in harmony with the environment and each other. On the other hand there are images of a money hungry rabble casting aside cultural traditions in pursuit of easy cash and exotic coyote dancers. Both images are politically disempowering. The former suggests that rural folk have little interest in modern politics except in the form of “resistance” when traditional ways are threatened. The later suggests that their interest in politics is exhausted once sufficient money has been paid for their votes. […]
With automobile, aside from oil, another perishable consumption is rubber. To me, it is a very high potential natural resource for economic purpose. Personally, I think Thailand should invest more on research for use of rubber. This is a major strength we are overlooking here.
Your oversight, Andrew Walker, of the most recent extrajudicial Thai military abuse of prisoners-insurgents handed over by Malaysia is amazing. But I am reproducing that particularly news item below because this could be, again, another Thaksin Crime Against Humanity:
—————
Thaksin govt executed suspects extradited by Malaysia: Sonthi
(Compiled by BangkokPost.com from Agencies)
Coup leader and army commander Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin has charged that the Thaksin Shinawatra government “executed” suspected Islamic insurgent leaders extradited by Malaysia to Thailand.
The sensational assertion came on the eve of a two-day trip to Malaysia by Gen Sonthi.
He said that the reported killings of Muslim suspects during the Thaksin era had made Malaysia reluctant to hand over suspected insurgents.
Gen Sonthi provided no further details of his charges. Here is what Gen Sonthi told reporters:
“I am confident that the Malaysian government will extend full cooperation to us. Malaysia used to cooperate with the previous government in handing over some suspects to us, but the previous government did a bad thing by executing those suspects, which made the Malaysians angry and reluctant to cooperate with the previous government.
“The previous government made the mess and left a dirty job behind, and this government is cleaning up the mess and the dirty things that were left behind.”
The Thaksin government was long known “to disappear” suspected insurgents, but the allegations raised by Gen Sonthi are new and seem to add to the possible charges against the Thaksin government.
Malaysia began quietly extraditing suspected insurgents long before Mr Thaksin became prime minister. The number and identity of suspects never has been made public.
———–
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The fear of the rural
I am not so sure either, Naphat. As you say, 70 yrs ago, it might be OK to strip rural their power in influencing politic. But today, with instant communication and widespread news. Frankly, I hope the time bomb is NOT ticking. If it does, then admittedly Marxist is probably right(in a way).
Borders of rubber
There are a few interesting points about the rubber trade in Laos that I’ve come across in research recently. First, it works well as an upland crop – unlike many other opium substitutes, which require the growers to relocate to the lowlands. Second, it’s being mostly driven by private investors from China, not the aid/ngo opium replacement programs which on balance seem to fail more often than they succeed – perhaps because they start with growing a crop and then try to find a market, whereas the chinese are starting with market demand. Third, they farm on contract: they have prices set in advance so (provided they can grow the amount specified) it’s a much more secure source of income to other crops.
Of course, rubber’s not the only contract cash crop being driven by the Chinese – see Lyttleton’s paper on “Watermelons, bars and trucks”.
On an anthro-theory point, Grant Evans argued that contract farming would be popular with Lao peasants in Lao peasants under socialism, 20 years ago now, based on his reading of Chayanov who recommended it as a way to connect subsistence farmers to the market. Looks like events have born him out.
Sufficiency democracy
[…] Thanks, again, to Patiwat, for drawing our attention to a key political statement, this time from “respected intellectual” Prawase Wasi. The Nation carries a summary of Prawase’s manifesto for what I like to call “sufficiency democracy“: The new constitution should reduce the power and number of MPs and help bureaucrats be independent from politicians, respected intellectual Dr Prawase Wasi suggested yesterday. Prawase said society had to admit that politicians – who are elected to represent the people – create problems.”They neither have the knowledge nor the competency. They are only interested in making connections in order to get into the House. It is more suitable to call them election winners,’’ he said. MPs or politicians should not be empowered to be executives. “Their role should be limited to writing policies.” […]
Surayud’s “Black May”?
Vichai, I’m not gleeful at any of those atrocities – re-read my post.
And why should I be chearing Sonthi, when a week after his “revelations”, over a thousand schools are closing down until further notice because of escalating violence? Sonthi expressed remorse over Black May as well, but that didn’t bring back the lives of the people who his soldiers shot.
If Sonthi is so remorseful about the atrocities committed by the Army in the South, then why isn’t he prosecuting the people who gave the order to shoot at Krue Sae and piled up the protestors at Tak Bai?
Remorse isn’t helping the problem in the south – if anything, it’s making things worse. I want results, not PR.
Golden Boat update 1
[…] (Go to Golden Boat update 1.) […]
Patiwat on Sarit and Sonthi
Jon, I didn’t mention parallels between the the current populist-elitist transition and the Por-Sarit transition because I really see no simple or straight-forward parallels.
– Populism, in the modern sense of a coordinated series of policies specifically designed to benefit the rural poor rather than the economy as a whole, didn’t exist back then.
– Both Por and Sarit emphasized “development” in general, although I really don’t think they ever framed development in populist terms.
– That being said, the tyrants did help bring Thailand’s education level to reasonable levels and electrified most of the country.
– A major factor in the economy back then was US government aid. This certainly led to lots of infrastructure and economic development (particularly near US bases), but I wouldn’t really call that populism.
If anybody can better identify populist policies in the pre-1980s era or show a clear transition in economic policy between Por and Sarit, please do so.
The fear of the rural
Prawase Wasi has made comments that support this “fear of the rural” idea in his recent proposals for the next constitution. He suggests that the power and number of MPs should be reduced, and that the central bureaucracy be independent from politicians.
90% of MPs come from rural provinces. MPs are directly elected by the public.
“They neither have the knowledge nor the competency. They are only interested in making connections in order to get into the House. It is more suitable to call them election winners,” he said about MPs.
“I propose that bureaucrats should be independent from politicians, who can no longer be removed or transferred from the post, because if the bureaucrats are strong, they can keep a check on politicians.”
See http://nationmultimedia.com/2006/11/29/politics/politics_30020243.php
The fear of the rural
It is often hard for rural Thai perceptions of the urban folks to strike an appropriate middle ground. On the one hand there is the romantic imagery of honest and hard working city workers living a modern life surrounded by the fruits of development, in harmony with the invisible hand of the omniscient market. On the other hand there are images of a money hungry rabble casting aside cultural traditions in pursuit of easy cash and exotic mia nois. Both images are politically disempowering. The former suggests that urban folk have little interest in modern politics except in the form of “resistance” when rural concerns are discussed. The later suggests that their interest in politics is exhausted once sufficient money has been spent for votes.
I hope I am not accused of lese majeste, but methinks HRM forgets the long history of dancing girls at local Thai cultural and religious festivities. I just see these “dancers” as the modern day version of the ramwong girls; the attire (a tad more scanty) and the music (much different) have changed, but the charges of overly risque dancers transcend time and place. As for these “coyote” girls, it usually takes either a corporate sponsor or a wealthy patron to enable such entertainment to take place. I daresay most rural temple fairs I’ve visited in the past, well l had no such luck in finding such ahaan taa (eye candy) although entertainment, such as attractive singers and a band, were common .
The fear of the rural
I don’t know, fall – why have a negative image of a ticking time bomb hanging over all this rural empowerment? After 70 or so years of ‘democracy’ it seems like we still are repeating the People’s Party’s line that the rural population is not yet ready for democracy.
Surayud’s “Black May”?
Patiwat sounded somewhat gleeful that past Thai leaders who committed atrocities had been let off easy in the past. Maybe not this time Patiwat. Thaksin Shinawatra and his extrajudicial police generals, and his, extrajudicial military generals, may yet be tried for their horrific crimes because Thai people are no longer so forgiving (despite the Patiwat cheers) nor that naive.
Patiwat I thought you are the one who seek pragmatic solutions to end the breakdown of law and order at the South? Then why are you are not cheering General Sonthi’s revelations about the Thaksin government’s executions of the Muslim prisoners repatriated from Malaysia?
Those revelations by General Sonthi demonstrated sincere remorse to add substance to the profuse apologies to the Southern Muslims by PM Surayud a few days ago. Winning back the trust of the Southern Muslims would be extremely difficult after years of Thaksin savage treatment of the suspected insurgents-prisoners, many believed to have been tortured, executed and disappeareds. General Sonthi’s revelations was an excellent gesture and shows this junta/Surayud’s government’s firm intentions to win back the trust from the Southern people so severely fractured by Thaksin’s abuses.
Surayud’s “Black May”?
[…] New Mandala links to a video from May 1992 that shows Thai soldiers kicking and beating people who were protesting against the government then. The soldiers were under the ultimate command of Surayud Chulanont, the current prime minister of Thailand. Preetam Rai […]
Lecture: Thongchai in London on the Coup
[…] Tonight, University of Wisconsin-Madison professor, Thongchai Winichakul will be lecturing in London on the topic, “Thailand’s Coup: A Step Forward in a Dangerous Direction“.┬ ┬ The talk will be held at the Royal Asiatic Society,┬ 14 Stephenson Way, London NW1 2HD , from 5-7pm. […]
Surayud’s “Black May”?
Youtube videos can be saved using this site:
http://keepvid.com/
The result is an FLV file, which can be played with any free FLV player.
Patiwat on Sarit and Sonthi
I find it incomprehensible that you make no mention of the so-called “populist” economic policies ranging from rice price support-subsidies to the village funds. Does the current administration’s concerted efforts to end most of these, except for 30 baht healthcare, have any parallel from the past?
Surayud’s “Black May”?
Surayud has always denied giving the order for his men to shoot – I remember an interview he gave for Time magazine where he specifically denied it. Yet the public forgave him for the atrocities performed by his troops.
It’s interesting to compare this with some other state atrocities committed since then. The junta has announced they will continue investigations for atrocities committed during Thaksin’s War on Drugs. Although investigations into the Krue Sae Mosque massacre have clearly fingered Pallop Pinmanee as the person who ordered soliders to shoot, criminal charges have never been filed against him. Same thing for the Tak Bai tragedy. Nobody at ISOC was ever charged for the “Red Tank” murders during the 1970’s either. And I don’t recall a single Krating Daeng or Navapol leader was charged for the 6 October Massacre.
It seems that Thais are very forgiving to their leaders when they order atrocities, doesn’t it?
The fear of the rural
Even God cast out Eve and Adam after they tasted the apple.
Is it possible to put the rural back in their place once they have tasted the fruit?
Did I hear a time bomb that ticking?
Lewd dancing and Buddhist festivals
[…] It is often hard for urban Thai perceptions of the rural to strike an appropriate middle ground. On the one hand there is the romantic imagery of honest and hard working agriculturalists living simple and sufficient lives, in harmony with the environment and each other. On the other hand there are images of a money hungry rabble casting aside cultural traditions in pursuit of easy cash and exotic coyote dancers. Both images are politically disempowering. The former suggests that rural folk have little interest in modern politics except in the form of “resistance” when traditional ways are threatened. The later suggests that their interest in politics is exhausted once sufficient money has been paid for their votes. […]
Borders of rubber
With automobile, aside from oil, another perishable consumption is rubber. To me, it is a very high potential natural resource for economic purpose. Personally, I think Thailand should invest more on research for use of rubber. This is a major strength we are overlooking here.
Surayud’s “Black May”?
Vichai: So who are these suspects? Will the media follow-up and ask for any details?
Surayud’s “Black May”?
Your oversight, Andrew Walker, of the most recent extrajudicial Thai military abuse of prisoners-insurgents handed over by Malaysia is amazing. But I am reproducing that particularly news item below because this could be, again, another Thaksin Crime Against Humanity:
—————
Thaksin govt executed suspects extradited by Malaysia: Sonthi
(Compiled by BangkokPost.com from Agencies)
Coup leader and army commander Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin has charged that the Thaksin Shinawatra government “executed” suspected Islamic insurgent leaders extradited by Malaysia to Thailand.
The sensational assertion came on the eve of a two-day trip to Malaysia by Gen Sonthi.
He said that the reported killings of Muslim suspects during the Thaksin era had made Malaysia reluctant to hand over suspected insurgents.
Gen Sonthi provided no further details of his charges. Here is what Gen Sonthi told reporters:
“I am confident that the Malaysian government will extend full cooperation to us. Malaysia used to cooperate with the previous government in handing over some suspects to us, but the previous government did a bad thing by executing those suspects, which made the Malaysians angry and reluctant to cooperate with the previous government.
“The previous government made the mess and left a dirty job behind, and this government is cleaning up the mess and the dirty things that were left behind.”
The Thaksin government was long known “to disappear” suspected insurgents, but the allegations raised by Gen Sonthi are new and seem to add to the possible charges against the Thaksin government.
Malaysia began quietly extraditing suspected insurgents long before Mr Thaksin became prime minister. The number and identity of suspects never has been made public.
———–