Quote hrom AHRC
“If these were the real reasons for the takeover, then why not do it earlier? The government of Pol. Lt. Col. Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra had for years stood accused of corruption, nepotism and abuses of power. Like other governments with an overwhelming parliamentary majority, it had since its inception sought to manipulate the political system to its advantage and cut down agencies designed to keep it in check. The Asian Human Rights Commission, among others, had since 2004 documented and decried widespread extrajudicial killings, forced disappearances, torture and other gross abuses of human rights under the Thaksin administration by all security forces, including the army. But apparently none of that mattered until now.”
– It sounds like AHRC would have liked the coup leaders to have acted sooner to remove Thaksin?
That might have led to more bloodshed which certainly would have given them more to write about.
Quote from AHRC:
“There is no way to justify this coup. On behalf of the global human rights community, the Asian Human Rights Commission again unequivocally rejects any pretensions of the military regime in Thailand to the standards of human rights, or assertions that it has the mandate to secure the means for the rule of law and democracy. None of these will be assured there until the country has built the institutions and means needed to oppose both elected and unelected despots. This work can begin only once the army has been removed from power.”
– Somehow I don’t think Thaksin was working towards:
‘building the institutions and means needed to oppose both elected and unelected despots’
Surayud doesn’t appear to me to be a despot, but Thaksin on the other hand…?
I was there attending the event. Before jumping into any conclusion, one should obtain the facts & analyze them objectively. And here are the facts.
The event was actually organized by Thai business owners & professionals in Seattle not the Thai Students in UW. According to a member of the organizing group, SE Asia Center sponsored only in name so that the meeting hall could be secured for use without going through the red tape. Actually, there’re only 2 students who distributed flyers protesting against the coup. Since the group paid for the rental cost, and since the 2 protesters took over the spot where the event organizer had planned to put a large table full of free refreshment (hot coffee & tea included) without informing the organizer in advance, members of the organizer were not pleased to begin with. They viewed their right was violated & the protest was actually aimed to support Thaksin Shinnawatra. When the 2 protesting students aggressively handed out flyers to the attendees who started to come in, members of the organizer got upset. So, they contacted the staff manning the facility & asked that the 2 student moved their table & materials away from the spot slated for their use. Since their action created considerable confusion to the arriving attendees, they were asked to be outside the hall separate from the originally planned event. The campus police was called by the staff because the organizers did not have the specific phone numbers to call.
My acquaintance said that in having the event opened to the public & held at UW, they wanted the public to be informed & involved. They were aware that there would be disagreements arising from Khun Sondhi & his co-speakers’ speech. Many members of the organizing team have lived in the US for decades; they know Americans are very opinionated. Therefore, disagreement or opposition was expected. But they did not appreciate that the young lady who led the protest disguised herself days earlier trying to extract information on who actually funded the event and then made the pre-emptive move occupying the rented space before the organizer came to set up the meeting. Nevertheless, after knowing that the 2 protesting students created no trouble other than distributing the flyers, they offered the student free coffee and refreshment including the beverage as well as cookies and donuts.
It should be noted that both Mr. Sondhi & Senator Karoon went out of their way to chat with the 2 protesting students. They invited the students to sit in & listen to their information. The students sat next to a member of the organizer. They applauded at times during the speech by both speakers. It’s rather peculiar that a few non-Thais who posted negative comments against Mr. Sondhi failed to mention that by having a Q&As session after his English presentation, he in fact provided the opportunity for all non-Thai audience to freely participate in the discussion, ask him the questions and/or challenge his stand or viewpoints. This is unquestionably a democratic practice, a proper & bold move. Try to get the ex-PM, Thaksin to do this, anyone!
By the way, the auditorium can seat 440 people at full capacity. In my estimate, there were close to 400 people attended the symposium.
It is clear to me & others who know the facts & have the critical thinking ability that in protesting the coup, these 2 students & those people in Thailand are mostly supporters of the ex-PM. They protest because their idol lost out in the game of politics & power. Knowing that their favorite man is homeless & wandering aimlessly from one country to another & knowing that anti-graft committees are piling up evidence against the ex-PM & his wife as well as relatives & close associates, these are too much to bear. They feel powerless because the base of their power was gone, suddenly taken away by the coup. One has to question their motives in the protest against the coup despite the 4 main reasons given by the coup leader & despite things are getting better now compared to several months ago. If they are genuinely against the coup, they should include future coups and the counter-coup as well. Since the day after the coup, there have been persistent & widespread rumors about the counter-coup. If their common goal & motive is against the coup, they must fairly & clearly protest all coups including the counter-coup because the coups & counter-coups are all the same. Only the chicken coup is different. This goes for all Farangs or non-Thais every where too.
That was no excuse Andrew Walker. But to an outsider, a foreigner, it would take some actual first-hand exposure to the Thaksin divisive politics that Thaksin indeed was “eroding unity among the people within the nation and leading to a severe social crisis [which…] seemed to have deteriorated to such an extent that armed clashes would ensue, leading to bloodshed and loss of life.”
General Sonthi, the gentleman and very soft-spoken and polite, is being unfairly and undeservedly compared with Sarit. Give General Sonthi the 12 or so months to complete his martial rule and complete his tasks of restoring democracy to the Thais. After that, Andrew Walker you can make a fair judgement.
Well, I don’t actually think we are at odds, as you say. Yes, Sondhi does want his piece of the pie. My problem is with the Western universities who are helping him along the way. By “ideologue” I meant the way his media group supported the coup and has tried to legitimize the dictatorship it has installed. Yes, of course he has no “ideology” in the sense of a reasoned political program, and yes again, it’s simply a question of “what’s in it for me”. So I ask again, why are Thai Studies programs around the world bending over backwards to give this guy the imprimatur of Western academic authority? And a final yes, Handley does have one of the best analyses of the whole crisis. But I wonder if he has written off Thaksin a little too quickly.
this maybe an interesting tip of the iceberg. The money to fund the insurgencies has to come from somewhere. I wonder what’s the informed opinion on the role of the Malaysian establishment in the current round of violence. With the well-known discriminatory (some would say racist) policy of UMNO, to me it is not such a stretch that some rogue elements might be inclined to actively champion the cause of their kinsfolk in a certain neighboring country.
Sorry Curious, but after some 25 years of closely observing Thai politics, your concept of an ideological dictator and mine are at odds. Sondhi is just another in a very long string of Thai politicians whose primary goal is to get a bigger piece of the pie, although I think Handley, in his interview, had some interesting thoughts relative to the more global relationship of the military to the palace. I think Handley’s ideas have some credence. (Note that in my first post I remarked that I felt there was possibly some support for Sondhi from the Crown Prince, based upon some images presented in the Power Point demo shown behind Sondhi while he was speaking) But I doubt Sondhi has much ideology at all apart from that core of Bangkok values “what is in it for me?”. You want ideological dictators then I suggest you go across the Salween into Burma. Now that is my concept of ideological dictators and I would not be happy for an academic institution to give, say Than Shwe, a podium .
[…] Paul Handley’s political biography of King Bhumiphol, The King Never Smiles, is banned in Thailand. But I have noticed that that it has been scanned in full and is available, chapter by chapter, on a Thai website. […]
Well an interesting thought from some one looking at the issue of tourism seems to have been sidelined by a confused rant against DASSK and anything else that is vaugely associated with Burma. I have a few simple points to consider.
1. We can be critical without being aggressive and exclusive in our language and style.
2. If you cant even spell DASSK (Aungsan Suchi ) it undermines others confidence that you know what you are talking about.
3. I’d be interested to see what “social revisionist policies are more extreme than the recent Thaksin govt and onbviously aimed at social control” are advocated by DASSK?
4. I apprecite the interest and involvement of anyone interested in human rights and freedom. I’d like to encourage people with constructive debate and welcome discussion on those terms.
The Malaysian’s are calling Surayud out for this. Malaysian Deputy Security Minister Fu Ah Kiow called Surayud “very imaginative” but “absolutely baseless.”
Junior Security Minister Johari Baharom demanded Surayud show proof of the claims.
I don’t know…. it sorta makes sense. Surayud claims he wanted to negotiate with the insurgents. And now he’s found his negotiation partners!
I’m giving Surayud the benefit of the doubt and am now urging all my Malaysian friends to boycot Tom Yum Kung.
Having been involved in export horticulture for the last 18 years and for the last 6 managing one of the largest Organic Export Horticulture project in Africa I am now doing Development work in India. I still find it strange that the perceptions are still there that
1)Organics is more expensive to produce
2)Organics cannot produce the yields required and
3)Organics cannot replace Conventional Production
If there is not a fundimental mind shift towards Organic Production as the only future alternative progress will not be made. As resources are being pumped into finding alternative energy sources for the future and actively encouraged so should the approach towards Organic Gardening and or Farming be actively encouraged.
I wouldn’t worry about it so much nic as it is just a reflection of the strange and limited way that Thai academics look at the outside world…and a failure of them to achieve the kind of mutual understanding that you and your wife and thousands like you have. At best it is an indication of the kind of crap that the English newspapers report on in Thailand and is by no means a reflection apon you and your wife or the thousands of others who are in “mixed marriages”. Perhaps rather than looking at the “xenophobic deductions” I think the xenophobic questions and research project is the issue. Meaningless is all it is and I think everyone who reads the article will share your sentiment, I know I do. On the issue of language and confusion this is a typical statement made about the outer provincial children nation-wide and so again a reflection of the researchers ineptitude. Rest assured that they are perceived as an ignorant minority and what they have written is just ridiculous. Th epaper that published it is renowned for this sort of rubbish.
I was going to post on this very matter, but really you said everything I had to say. Though even though Al Jazeera may have gotten such access for it’s anti-American reputation, they were still followed everywhere and eventually no longer permited to speak to citizens.
It should also be mentioned that the Al Jazeera report did show both sides of the story of the sanctions debate. I had expected them to strongly condemn sanctions but even Al Jazeera can’t spin the questionable future of the people of Burma.
Nicholas, remember that the original research is being told to you through the filter of the journalist. It’s not unheard of for the main idea of research to be lost, or get completely distorted in the Thai press.
Most egregious example of this is the science section of the Thai broadsheet, e.g. Thairath. It reads like a freak news section, which probably reflect the level of understanding of the editors there.
Dear Andrew Walker
I am graduate student at Chiang Mai University . Now i study chinese people in laos. I have chance to read some yourbook. Sometime I hope to talk with you about chinese people in laos.
Reply to Johpa: isn’t the problem the fact that the people who ARE being muzzled are those who disagree with the royalist-military coup and the regime it has installed, while its supporters, like Sondhi, are given free reign to build legitimacy for a royalist-military dictatorship by speaking at famous “Thai Studies” universities around the world. Everyone knows the intellectual authority that the endorsement of a Western university confers in Thailand – especially Sondhi. And Sondhi uses that endorsement to jeer at the villagers!!
Rather than be proud to “get” Sondhi (Sondhi “got” U. Washington, not the other way round) they should be ashamed to have allowed themselves to be used politically in this way. Sondhi is the key ideologue for a dictatorship: you’re telling me that hosting him is something to be proud of?!
What should Southeast Asian Studies programs be more interested in doing, making “milestones” by hosting corrupt, anti-democratic businessmen/politicians, or by showing solidarity with those Thais whose voices have been silenced by a dictatorship? This is a question or principle, not insecurity.
If the former then perhaps the next invitee on the list of speakers at U. Washington could be a general from the military junta in Myanmar, or, why not ex-President Suharto? There is a long list of potential speakers…
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Asian Human Rights Commission on the coup
Quote hrom AHRC
“If these were the real reasons for the takeover, then why not do it earlier? The government of Pol. Lt. Col. Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra had for years stood accused of corruption, nepotism and abuses of power. Like other governments with an overwhelming parliamentary majority, it had since its inception sought to manipulate the political system to its advantage and cut down agencies designed to keep it in check. The Asian Human Rights Commission, among others, had since 2004 documented and decried widespread extrajudicial killings, forced disappearances, torture and other gross abuses of human rights under the Thaksin administration by all security forces, including the army. But apparently none of that mattered until now.”
– It sounds like AHRC would have liked the coup leaders to have acted sooner to remove Thaksin?
That might have led to more bloodshed which certainly would have given them more to write about.
Quote from AHRC:
“There is no way to justify this coup. On behalf of the global human rights community, the Asian Human Rights Commission again unequivocally rejects any pretensions of the military regime in Thailand to the standards of human rights, or assertions that it has the mandate to secure the means for the rule of law and democracy. None of these will be assured there until the country has built the institutions and means needed to oppose both elected and unelected despots. This work can begin only once the army has been removed from power.”
– Somehow I don’t think Thaksin was working towards:
‘building the institutions and means needed to oppose both elected and unelected despots’
Surayud doesn’t appear to me to be a despot, but Thaksin on the other hand…?
Sondhi in Seattle … update
I was there attending the event. Before jumping into any conclusion, one should obtain the facts & analyze them objectively. And here are the facts.
The event was actually organized by Thai business owners & professionals in Seattle not the Thai Students in UW. According to a member of the organizing group, SE Asia Center sponsored only in name so that the meeting hall could be secured for use without going through the red tape. Actually, there’re only 2 students who distributed flyers protesting against the coup. Since the group paid for the rental cost, and since the 2 protesters took over the spot where the event organizer had planned to put a large table full of free refreshment (hot coffee & tea included) without informing the organizer in advance, members of the organizer were not pleased to begin with. They viewed their right was violated & the protest was actually aimed to support Thaksin Shinnawatra. When the 2 protesting students aggressively handed out flyers to the attendees who started to come in, members of the organizer got upset. So, they contacted the staff manning the facility & asked that the 2 student moved their table & materials away from the spot slated for their use. Since their action created considerable confusion to the arriving attendees, they were asked to be outside the hall separate from the originally planned event. The campus police was called by the staff because the organizers did not have the specific phone numbers to call.
My acquaintance said that in having the event opened to the public & held at UW, they wanted the public to be informed & involved. They were aware that there would be disagreements arising from Khun Sondhi & his co-speakers’ speech. Many members of the organizing team have lived in the US for decades; they know Americans are very opinionated. Therefore, disagreement or opposition was expected. But they did not appreciate that the young lady who led the protest disguised herself days earlier trying to extract information on who actually funded the event and then made the pre-emptive move occupying the rented space before the organizer came to set up the meeting. Nevertheless, after knowing that the 2 protesting students created no trouble other than distributing the flyers, they offered the student free coffee and refreshment including the beverage as well as cookies and donuts.
It should be noted that both Mr. Sondhi & Senator Karoon went out of their way to chat with the 2 protesting students. They invited the students to sit in & listen to their information. The students sat next to a member of the organizer. They applauded at times during the speech by both speakers. It’s rather peculiar that a few non-Thais who posted negative comments against Mr. Sondhi failed to mention that by having a Q&As session after his English presentation, he in fact provided the opportunity for all non-Thai audience to freely participate in the discussion, ask him the questions and/or challenge his stand or viewpoints. This is unquestionably a democratic practice, a proper & bold move. Try to get the ex-PM, Thaksin to do this, anyone!
By the way, the auditorium can seat 440 people at full capacity. In my estimate, there were close to 400 people attended the symposium.
It is clear to me & others who know the facts & have the critical thinking ability that in protesting the coup, these 2 students & those people in Thailand are mostly supporters of the ex-PM. They protest because their idol lost out in the game of politics & power. Knowing that their favorite man is homeless & wandering aimlessly from one country to another & knowing that anti-graft committees are piling up evidence against the ex-PM & his wife as well as relatives & close associates, these are too much to bear. They feel powerless because the base of their power was gone, suddenly taken away by the coup. One has to question their motives in the protest against the coup despite the 4 main reasons given by the coup leader & despite things are getting better now compared to several months ago. If they are genuinely against the coup, they should include future coups and the counter-coup as well. Since the day after the coup, there have been persistent & widespread rumors about the counter-coup. If their common goal & motive is against the coup, they must fairly & clearly protest all coups including the counter-coup because the coups & counter-coups are all the same. Only the chicken coup is different. This goes for all Farangs or non-Thais every where too.
Asian Human Rights Commission on the coup
That was no excuse Andrew Walker. But to an outsider, a foreigner, it would take some actual first-hand exposure to the Thaksin divisive politics that Thaksin indeed was “eroding unity among the people within the nation and leading to a severe social crisis [which…] seemed to have deteriorated to such an extent that armed clashes would ensue, leading to bloodshed and loss of life.”
General Sonthi, the gentleman and very soft-spoken and polite, is being unfairly and undeservedly compared with Sarit. Give General Sonthi the 12 or so months to complete his martial rule and complete his tasks of restoring democracy to the Thais. After that, Andrew Walker you can make a fair judgement.
Charles Keyes on Sondhi Limthongkul
Well, I don’t actually think we are at odds, as you say. Yes, Sondhi does want his piece of the pie. My problem is with the Western universities who are helping him along the way. By “ideologue” I meant the way his media group supported the coup and has tried to legitimize the dictatorship it has installed. Yes, of course he has no “ideology” in the sense of a reasoned political program, and yes again, it’s simply a question of “what’s in it for me”. So I ask again, why are Thai Studies programs around the world bending over backwards to give this guy the imprimatur of Western academic authority? And a final yes, Handley does have one of the best analyses of the whole crisis. But I wonder if he has written off Thaksin a little too quickly.
“Tom Yam Kung” fuelled insurgency
this maybe an interesting tip of the iceberg. The money to fund the insurgencies has to come from somewhere. I wonder what’s the informed opinion on the role of the Malaysian establishment in the current round of violence. With the well-known discriminatory (some would say racist) policy of UMNO, to me it is not such a stretch that some rogue elements might be inclined to actively champion the cause of their kinsfolk in a certain neighboring country.
Charles Keyes on Sondhi Limthongkul
Sorry Curious, but after some 25 years of closely observing Thai politics, your concept of an ideological dictator and mine are at odds. Sondhi is just another in a very long string of Thai politicians whose primary goal is to get a bigger piece of the pie, although I think Handley, in his interview, had some interesting thoughts relative to the more global relationship of the military to the palace. I think Handley’s ideas have some credence. (Note that in my first post I remarked that I felt there was possibly some support for Sondhi from the Crown Prince, based upon some images presented in the Power Point demo shown behind Sondhi while he was speaking) But I doubt Sondhi has much ideology at all apart from that core of Bangkok values “what is in it for me?”. You want ideological dictators then I suggest you go across the Salween into Burma. Now that is my concept of ideological dictators and I would not be happy for an academic institution to give, say Than Shwe, a podium .
Radio interview with Paul Handley
[…] Paul Handley’s political biography of King Bhumiphol, The King Never Smiles, is banned in Thailand. But I have noticed that that it has been scanned in full and is available, chapter by chapter, on a Thai website. […]
Australians and Laos – Part I
Nice topic, thank you for sharing this info
Burma boycott – some questions about “avoided tourism”
Whhooaah,
Well an interesting thought from some one looking at the issue of tourism seems to have been sidelined by a confused rant against DASSK and anything else that is vaugely associated with Burma. I have a few simple points to consider.
1. We can be critical without being aggressive and exclusive in our language and style.
2. If you cant even spell DASSK (Aungsan Suchi ) it undermines others confidence that you know what you are talking about.
3. I’d be interested to see what “social revisionist policies are more extreme than the recent Thaksin govt and onbviously aimed at social control” are advocated by DASSK?
4. I apprecite the interest and involvement of anyone interested in human rights and freedom. I’d like to encourage people with constructive debate and welcome discussion on those terms.
Best Wishes
Jamie
“Tom Yam Kung” fuelled insurgency
The Malaysian’s are calling Surayud out for this. Malaysian Deputy Security Minister Fu Ah Kiow called Surayud “very imaginative” but “absolutely baseless.”
Junior Security Minister Johari Baharom demanded Surayud show proof of the claims.
I don’t know…. it sorta makes sense. Surayud claims he wanted to negotiate with the insurgents. And now he’s found his negotiation partners!
I’m giving Surayud the benefit of the doubt and am now urging all my Malaysian friends to boycot Tom Yum Kung.
Australians and Laos – Part I
How does the Lao migrant community in Australia affect Australians’ perceptions of Lao?
The Australian-Lao people I knew migrated, not due to poverty, but due to political reasons.
Gardening or farming?
Having been involved in export horticulture for the last 18 years and for the last 6 managing one of the largest Organic Export Horticulture project in Africa I am now doing Development work in India. I still find it strange that the perceptions are still there that
1)Organics is more expensive to produce
2)Organics cannot produce the yields required and
3)Organics cannot replace Conventional Production
If there is not a fundimental mind shift towards Organic Production as the only future alternative progress will not be made. As resources are being pumped into finding alternative energy sources for the future and actively encouraged so should the approach towards Organic Gardening and or Farming be actively encouraged.
New research – the demise of Somtam?
I wouldn’t worry about it so much nic as it is just a reflection of the strange and limited way that Thai academics look at the outside world…and a failure of them to achieve the kind of mutual understanding that you and your wife and thousands like you have. At best it is an indication of the kind of crap that the English newspapers report on in Thailand and is by no means a reflection apon you and your wife or the thousands of others who are in “mixed marriages”. Perhaps rather than looking at the “xenophobic deductions” I think the xenophobic questions and research project is the issue. Meaningless is all it is and I think everyone who reads the article will share your sentiment, I know I do. On the issue of language and confusion this is a typical statement made about the outer provincial children nation-wide and so again a reflection of the researchers ineptitude. Rest assured that they are perceived as an ignorant minority and what they have written is just ridiculous. Th epaper that published it is renowned for this sort of rubbish.
Al Jazeera coverage of Burma
I was going to post on this very matter, but really you said everything I had to say. Though even though Al Jazeera may have gotten such access for it’s anti-American reputation, they were still followed everywhere and eventually no longer permited to speak to citizens.
It should also be mentioned that the Al Jazeera report did show both sides of the story of the sanctions debate. I had expected them to strongly condemn sanctions but even Al Jazeera can’t spin the questionable future of the people of Burma.
New research – the demise of Somtam?
Nicholas, remember that the original research is being told to you through the filter of the journalist. It’s not unheard of for the main idea of research to be lost, or get completely distorted in the Thai press.
Most egregious example of this is the science section of the Thai broadsheet, e.g. Thairath. It reads like a freak news section, which probably reflect the level of understanding of the editors there.
Radio interview with Paul Handley
Sorry I didn’t notice that you already put the link in the blog. My apology!
Radio interview with Paul Handley
You can listen to the tape of that interview online.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2006/1790433.htm
……
I got it from this discussion thread
http://www.prachatai.com/05web/th/board/showboard.php?QID=40055&TID=5
New research – the demise of Somtam?
How Thai / Isan is somtam anyway?
papaya – from South America
chile – from South America
peanuts – ?
cane sugar – ?
give me a “mac-kraphrao mu” burger any day.
New Mandala Focus on Laos
Dear Andrew Walker
I am graduate student at Chiang Mai University . Now i study chinese people in laos. I have chance to read some yourbook. Sometime I hope to talk with you about chinese people in laos.
Best,
Pittaya
Charles Keyes on Sondhi Limthongkul
Reply to Johpa: isn’t the problem the fact that the people who ARE being muzzled are those who disagree with the royalist-military coup and the regime it has installed, while its supporters, like Sondhi, are given free reign to build legitimacy for a royalist-military dictatorship by speaking at famous “Thai Studies” universities around the world. Everyone knows the intellectual authority that the endorsement of a Western university confers in Thailand – especially Sondhi. And Sondhi uses that endorsement to jeer at the villagers!!
Rather than be proud to “get” Sondhi (Sondhi “got” U. Washington, not the other way round) they should be ashamed to have allowed themselves to be used politically in this way. Sondhi is the key ideologue for a dictatorship: you’re telling me that hosting him is something to be proud of?!
What should Southeast Asian Studies programs be more interested in doing, making “milestones” by hosting corrupt, anti-democratic businessmen/politicians, or by showing solidarity with those Thais whose voices have been silenced by a dictatorship? This is a question or principle, not insecurity.
If the former then perhaps the next invitee on the list of speakers at U. Washington could be a general from the military junta in Myanmar, or, why not ex-President Suharto? There is a long list of potential speakers…