And another way of looking at it might be that Prabowo, family and associates are more interested in adding to their already large swathes of the country “for the benefit of [some]Indonesians”.
Prabowo and his families companies own palm oil plantations… so when you speak of felled forests… you speak of him.
And if you care to search, you will find that Prabowo did very nicely out of “gifts” from Freeport on his tour of the eastern province.
“Or should it be that only the kind of Western country Saxer hails from that is allowed to vote in flawed governments?”
Or *gasp* the anti-Thaksin parties could actually try to get votes from the ranks of pro-Thaksin voters.
It just happened in a Senate primary in Mississippi. A conservative incumbent was about to get his ass dumped by a tea-bagging upstart, so he started courting the African American (OH THE HUMANITY! OH THE HUMANITY!) vote, and won. There may be other factors, but he got a support with larger turnout in the African-American districts.
“But one thing that’s important for Thad Cochran to consider, right now: It looks like African-Americans may have bailed you out after you came begging at the last minute. How do you intend to repay the debt?”
” Please be assured. I am a democrat (applause). I believe in democracy. I was a soldier. I was a professional soldier. And I swore an oath to the Indonesian constitution to protect the constitution of the Republic. So I always uphold the constitutional power. That’s why I’m in politics.”
I don’t quite follow the logic. Assertion 1a, Assertion 1b (essentilly the same assertion. Non following statement of fact repeated. Then a true but misleading statement .. OR .. is it the truth?
The “Oath” that Prabowo swore when he became a soldier was to the Constitution pre Reformasi. SO which constitution is he referring to?
Pre amendment or post?
“The salary of a bupati is around 6 million rupiah – $600 USD. Something. Now with the rupiah depreciating it is now what 500 USD?”
NO. The salary of the bupati is still 6 juta! This comment alone shows that Prabowo does not move in the same circle as those he claims to represent. You are only interested in making this kind of conversion IF you deal in large sums of US dollars like the elite.
A bupati still buys goods in Rupiah. Food is not sold at market in US dollars.
Rarely has an article so mirrored our own recent experience that we had to check the byline to make sure we hadn’t actually written it ourselves! As hard as it was for local journalists, it was even harder for some of us coming from overseas, without even a seat in the press vans or the slightest bit of communication from anyone on the Jokowi campaign staff. Only thanks to the tip offs from local outlets like Antara and Berita Satu (and stopping the random person on the street, “did you see Jokowi drive by??”) did we manage to finally find the candidate to get enough shots to file our story. And spot on that the alienation of local people was palpable.
I still doubt that there is that ‘patent’ perception by the Bangkok middle-class that economic growth elsewhere in the country, and even economic growth that’s faster than Bangkok’s, and ensuing growing middle-class at the regions would be a threat to their lifestyle or standing.
It is not as if huge budgets would suddenly be diverted “at the expense” of Bangkok.
On the other hand maybe it could be that Thaksin had been preaching (to the Reds) that the Bangkok middle-class were thriving at the expense of the regionals.
Far more interesting than Hercules are his assorted gang members, regularly replenished with dissidents from Dili. Last a-spotted with H was Bruno aka Dr Colimau with an impeccable activist pedigree, fresh from the monster $US and $SGD counterfeiting scam with Vitorino DS who used to head up Prabowo’s Yayasan Timor Lorosae. Vitorino and co were busted with close to a Billion. If only the dumbos hadn’t trousered some of it to buy motorbikes …
Your identification of different communities of discourse combined with an appreciation of the structural changes provides a distinctive and welcome angle on the conflict.
The omissions noted by other commentators are not only understandable but could in fact be considered advantageous. It allows other significant groups in Thai society that do not receive as much attention to be brought to the fore.
1. Loss of huge budgets for Bangkok-based projects.
2. Long-term growth of competing populations for equal services, etc.
3. Political influence that changes demographics.
More and more. Need I go on?
I guess humble thanks are in order for willingness to humor?
You know, this issue of academic ethics got me started. In this context it allegedly implies that because of one’s affiliations it is dishonest not to cite those affiliations in a given work. Or, that if affiliated one is not likely to be able to be balanced and fair. In this, in fact, I think I can make my own complaint about many academics I have met who, affiliations or not, write some of the most awful material – biased and misleading – to support their own biases. Now, to be consistent, if many of these pieces are biased, are the writers not required to preface their work with disclaimers such as “I was a rape victim so therefore my…” or “My cousin was killed with a gun so that’s why…” How far does a person have to go to justify to others that a given piece of writing is valid? We can argue affiliation, but since you have already read this piece and know MAx’s affiliation, and you made a point here in your complaint about bias, why not show us where the piece is faulty for that reason?
Kepada sdr/i yang ikut berpendapat di sini, memang tidak salah apabila membela calon yang dirasa lebih baik, itu semua hak dan sah-sah saja. NAMUN, alangkah baiknya membela calon saudara dengan alasan yg konkret.
Sejauh ini saya perhatikan, dalam menyerang, pendukung prabowo mencari titik lemah jokowi. Demikian juga pendukung jokowi pun begitu.
TAPI, ketika mempertahankan calonnya, pendukung Jokowi mampu memberi penjelasan konkret, bukti yang nyata, dan ditulis dengan bahasa yang baik. Terlihat di sana kecerdasan dalam berargumen, bukan sekedar untuk memancing perselisihan. Sebaliknya, pendukung prabowo jarang sekali membela calonnya dengan jawaban yang konkret, dengan bukti, apapun yang logis dan nyata. Mirip seperti orang yang protes tanpa pubya bukti. Apabila memang ada, cukup dengan duduk berdiskusi dan pasti berani beradu argumen, bukan? Kenapa harus seringkali berteriak-teriak penuh emosi tanpa memberi penjelasan logis dan nyata?
Well put, R. N. England. This advances discussion here in a very valuable way. The question is how understanding the Thai middle class in these terms square with Mr Saxer’s analysis.
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Anti-democratic? Prabowo’s response
And another way of looking at it might be that Prabowo, family and associates are more interested in adding to their already large swathes of the country “for the benefit of [some]Indonesians”.
Prabowo and his families companies own palm oil plantations… so when you speak of felled forests… you speak of him.
And if you care to search, you will find that Prabowo did very nicely out of “gifts” from Freeport on his tour of the eastern province.
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=13064
Care to cite your evidence re Jokowi?
Siamese dreams in the time of the junta
“Or should it be that only the kind of Western country Saxer hails from that is allowed to vote in flawed governments?”
Or *gasp* the anti-Thaksin parties could actually try to get votes from the ranks of pro-Thaksin voters.
It just happened in a Senate primary in Mississippi. A conservative incumbent was about to get his ass dumped by a tea-bagging upstart, so he started courting the African American (OH THE HUMANITY! OH THE HUMANITY!) vote, and won. There may be other factors, but he got a support with larger turnout in the African-American districts.
http://www.salon.com/2014/06/25/inside_thad_cochrans_comeback_gop_incumbents_incredible_mississippi_win/
“But one thing that’s important for Thad Cochran to consider, right now: It looks like African-Americans may have bailed you out after you came begging at the last minute. How do you intend to repay the debt?”
Siamese dreams in the time of the junta
Maybe Marc is embarrassed that his party don’t seem capable of winning any kind of election of late?
Anti-democratic? Prabowo’s response
” Please be assured. I am a democrat (applause). I believe in democracy. I was a soldier. I was a professional soldier. And I swore an oath to the Indonesian constitution to protect the constitution of the Republic. So I always uphold the constitutional power. That’s why I’m in politics.”
I don’t quite follow the logic. Assertion 1a, Assertion 1b (essentilly the same assertion. Non following statement of fact repeated. Then a true but misleading statement .. OR .. is it the truth?
The “Oath” that Prabowo swore when he became a soldier was to the Constitution pre Reformasi. SO which constitution is he referring to?
Pre amendment or post?
Anti-democratic? Prabowo’s response
“The salary of a bupati is around 6 million rupiah – $600 USD. Something. Now with the rupiah depreciating it is now what 500 USD?”
NO. The salary of the bupati is still 6 juta! This comment alone shows that Prabowo does not move in the same circle as those he claims to represent. You are only interested in making this kind of conversion IF you deal in large sums of US dollars like the elite.
A bupati still buys goods in Rupiah. Food is not sold at market in US dollars.
And what of when the Rupiah appreciated?
Siamese dreams in the time of the junta
The Thai generals told the Burmese generals that what they did was very similar to what happened in Burma in 1988 (26 years ago!)
see: http://www.irrawaddy.org/burma/thai-junta-compares-coup-burmas-1988-crackdown.html?PageSpeed=noscript
Perhaps Siamese should learn from the Burmese (instead of exploiting them as migrant workers lol)
Striving for safety
Surya,
Regarding most of your comments: “Not very likely”. I would differ with much of what
you say about Malaysia and Indonesia.
Prabowo Subianto: pilihlah aku, tetapi sekali saja
Wah apakah pemilu ini bisa jadi pemilihan presiden yang terakhir? semoga tidak terjadi
Field notes on the Jokowi campaign
Rarely has an article so mirrored our own recent experience that we had to check the byline to make sure we hadn’t actually written it ourselves! As hard as it was for local journalists, it was even harder for some of us coming from overseas, without even a seat in the press vans or the slightest bit of communication from anyone on the Jokowi campaign staff. Only thanks to the tip offs from local outlets like Antara and Berita Satu (and stopping the random person on the street, “did you see Jokowi drive by??”) did we manage to finally find the candidate to get enough shots to file our story. And spot on that the alienation of local people was palpable.
The perils of loyalty
[…] Please read The Perils of Loyalty […]
Siamese dreams in the time of the junta
I still doubt that there is that ‘patent’ perception by the Bangkok middle-class that economic growth elsewhere in the country, and even economic growth that’s faster than Bangkok’s, and ensuing growing middle-class at the regions would be a threat to their lifestyle or standing.
It is not as if huge budgets would suddenly be diverted “at the expense” of Bangkok.
On the other hand maybe it could be that Thaksin had been preaching (to the Reds) that the Bangkok middle-class were thriving at the expense of the regionals.
The perils of loyalty
Far more interesting than Hercules are his assorted gang members, regularly replenished with dissidents from Dili. Last a-spotted with H was Bruno aka Dr Colimau with an impeccable activist pedigree, fresh from the monster $US and $SGD counterfeiting scam with Vitorino DS who used to head up Prabowo’s Yayasan Timor Lorosae. Vitorino and co were busted with close to a Billion. If only the dumbos hadn’t trousered some of it to buy motorbikes …
Siamese dreams in the time of the junta
Thanks for the article, Marc.
Your identification of different communities of discourse combined with an appreciation of the structural changes provides a distinctive and welcome angle on the conflict.
The omissions noted by other commentators are not only understandable but could in fact be considered advantageous. It allows other significant groups in Thai society that do not receive as much attention to be brought to the fore.
Siamese dreams in the time of the junta
1. Loss of huge budgets for Bangkok-based projects.
2. Long-term growth of competing populations for equal services, etc.
3. Political influence that changes demographics.
More and more. Need I go on?
Siamese dreams in the time of the junta
I may have said Max rather than Marc. Apologies.
Siamese dreams in the time of the junta
I guess humble thanks are in order for willingness to humor?
You know, this issue of academic ethics got me started. In this context it allegedly implies that because of one’s affiliations it is dishonest not to cite those affiliations in a given work. Or, that if affiliated one is not likely to be able to be balanced and fair. In this, in fact, I think I can make my own complaint about many academics I have met who, affiliations or not, write some of the most awful material – biased and misleading – to support their own biases. Now, to be consistent, if many of these pieces are biased, are the writers not required to preface their work with disclaimers such as “I was a rape victim so therefore my…” or “My cousin was killed with a gun so that’s why…” How far does a person have to go to justify to others that a given piece of writing is valid? We can argue affiliation, but since you have already read this piece and know MAx’s affiliation, and you made a point here in your complaint about bias, why not show us where the piece is faulty for that reason?
The perils of loyalty
Great article. One more reason that it has been great to see attention to Indonesia on New Mandala.
Prabowo Subianto: pilihlah aku, tetapi sekali saja
Kepada sdr/i yang ikut berpendapat di sini, memang tidak salah apabila membela calon yang dirasa lebih baik, itu semua hak dan sah-sah saja. NAMUN, alangkah baiknya membela calon saudara dengan alasan yg konkret.
Sejauh ini saya perhatikan, dalam menyerang, pendukung prabowo mencari titik lemah jokowi. Demikian juga pendukung jokowi pun begitu.
TAPI, ketika mempertahankan calonnya, pendukung Jokowi mampu memberi penjelasan konkret, bukti yang nyata, dan ditulis dengan bahasa yang baik. Terlihat di sana kecerdasan dalam berargumen, bukan sekedar untuk memancing perselisihan. Sebaliknya, pendukung prabowo jarang sekali membela calonnya dengan jawaban yang konkret, dengan bukti, apapun yang logis dan nyata. Mirip seperti orang yang protes tanpa pubya bukti. Apabila memang ada, cukup dengan duduk berdiskusi dan pasti berani beradu argumen, bukan? Kenapa harus seringkali berteriak-teriak penuh emosi tanpa memberi penjelasan logis dan nyata?
Siamese dreams in the time of the junta
All very fair, Mr Guard. As said, the omission of mention of the FES affiliation struck me as curious. That is all.
Siamese dreams in the time of the junta
Well put, R. N. England. This advances discussion here in a very valuable way. The question is how understanding the Thai middle class in these terms square with Mr Saxer’s analysis.