I have to say it’s disappointing. It makes you wonder about all of Grant Evan’s published writings. Does he always report rumor as fact? He should be embarrassed. As others have noted here, there is no evidence at all suggesting people were hired from Laos to attend Red Shirt rallies.
Even a lazy journalist would never have written a story making a claim like this (without interviews and research), and here we have an academic doing it!
“The most recent demonstrations held by the Thai Red Shirts in Bangkok included many Lao nationals. Just how many is impossible to tell.”
What an incredible statement! Based completely on hearsay from “local informants” from a village in Laos.
Call it “Ministry of Propaganda” or “Department of PR”, modern military or any self-respecting dictator need this in the modern era.
Or else they just end up with ham-fisted attempt to provide public information, much like that video which eerily similar to “confession” video of captured GI in Korea.
There is nothing wrong with the article except it is better title, “Red shirt demonstration influence on foreign”.
On a side note, there were many “farang” who join the PDRC protest and they were cheered. But if it’s neighboring countries with same ethocultural identity, they should not interfere with Thai politic and must surely be paid. Interesting.
Disappointing Grant. Regional affiliations are well known and should not discredit or belittle any emphathy that Lao villagers may have or feel for their brothers and sisters across the river. The feeling may well be sincere and all peoples have a loathing for double standards, murder and impunity, especially when it comes to ethnolinguistically related neighbours. It you want to look for paid participation then turn to southerners coming to Bangkok for creating mayhem in the capital, armed by the military, past six months: THAT is well documented.
I think a more accurate description is both Prabowo and Jokowi manifestation of the Suharto, trying to wrap themselves in clothes of Sukarno.
Prabowo desire for a strong President represent the harking for strong state of the Suharto era. However, Jokowi represent the yearning for a humble administrator, but without Suharto’s brutality. Jokowi and others like him have shifted the PDI-P rightward, with the talk of getting rid of the subsidies and turning his back on the labor unions.
Just like Suharto, Jokowi is best when he talks about concrete programs and policies, not making vague statements.
“We foreigners who love Thailand . . .” In my experience, practically all expats (German, Korean, Australian, etc.) – genuinely living and working or retired – oppose non-elected government. Why is it, then, that the two primary English-language papers feature in their letters section missives from foreigners virulently opposed to democratic interests in Thailand?
Two possibilities come to mind –
1. My expat acquaintances mostly live in Issan, where people value the voting process, or
2. These newspapers only collect letters from bar stool dives along Sukhumvit – where half of the occupants therein are overstays.
Both Joko Widodo are products of the Suharto ara, both they manifest itself in different ways. For Prabowo, its desire to return to New Order authoritarianism. For Joko Widodo, his policies are solidly New Order during the last year of New Order. During the last year he has moved the PDI-P rightward. The talk of ending the fuel subsidies and within five years, refusing to budge on raising minimum wage alot during his second year for that he did not get support of the labor unions. Most Indonesians want a leader who has the quiet humble administrator (doer) — Suharto, but without the brutality. Joko Widodo able to do that.
I think the author places too much blame on a Suharto, the New Order was built by a group of people, it was only when Suharto tried to concentrate his power, did those groups become more alienated. Do you think Suharto alone was responsible for the anti-Communist purges?
Both wrap themselves in Sukarno’s clothing, both are a product of the Suharto period, but just in different ways.
I wonder how big a factor Shiism was prior to Kang Djalal’s electoral success? Would you say that most voters were aware of the fact that Kang Djalal is a Shia figure and an advocate for Ahmadiyah rights prior to the reactionary anti-Shia campaign against him after the election?
Dear BKK lawyer,
We foreigners who love Thailand and have friends there are very unhappy about the situation. Shame on the European Union, The Scandinavian countries in particular, and Canada, ie. all those countries usually very vocal in the question of human rights for not so much as a squeak of protest.Only the USA., the UK., France and Australia have reacted. Add to that South-Africa who could not protest gross human rights abuses in Zimbabwe.
The tide of history is against the present regime, and cannot be stopped.
Ahem…there’s nothing ‘mild mannered’ about providing ideological and/or financial support to Communists like Fretilin during the Cold War. Had you commenced your activism after the fall of the Berlin Wall I may be more inclined to accept your disclaimer.
As someone with living family to protect in E.Timor, they value my anonymity. Whether Gusmao’s goons, or Ricardo’s goons, or David’s goons, or Chicito’s goons, or Bendito’s goons,or Rogerio’s goons,or Longginhos’ goons or the many other goon squads operated by the assorted mafiosos who run the joint, they all threaten people, and worse, for loose talk their bosses don’t like. Jeez, you can lose your job AND get a beating just for questioning somebody’s right to enter the VIP room at the airport. As many readers will be aware, the current Gov is trying to shut down debate and criticism in their own, very tame media, so reliant on Gov advertising. Let’s hope their fellow travelers in Australia don’t succeed in shutting down debate here before it’s even started.
As Mr W is so happy to serve as a proxy for the shades behind CAVR, I’m sure he can find a few minutes to tell us why they refuse to record for history the murders by Fretilin of the Liurais from Beco, Raimea and Mape, along with many of their people? Or why they’ve tried to fit up former integrationists with murders perpetrated by independence/Church figures? Because, Mr W, if just a single case of deliberate falsification or cover-up can be shown, as it can and will be, it destroys the credibility of the whole shabby pseudo academic pantomime as a source for future researchers.
This article would have some point, if it were not just based on nebulous local informants, comment and gossip, but on actual data and interviews of the supposed participants, including their motivations and not just assumptions of the author over motivations. Has the author actually taken the time to look at Red Shirt rallies and found some of those Laotians there, and interviewed them?
So far, this claim is not supported by any evidence whatsoever. I am not aware of any Laotians having been arrested in the dispersal at Aksa, for example, or at any other Red Shirt rally. Neither can i remember having spoken with any native Laotians at Red Shirt rallies.
I do not see the logic in that claim either. Why would Red Shirt leaders need to hire a few hundred Laotions, and risk a PR debacle, when the rally at Aksa had at their peak somewhere around 40 000 to 60 000 protesters from Thailand itself?
This claim just doesn’t make any sense, and is not supported by any evidence whatsoever.
What an interesting piece of writing this is. So now we know that the political bosses in Lao share exactly the same views on stabily, peace and democracy as the coup leaders in Bangkok, ie. that democracy is dangerous and undermines the social fabric and political stability, and should therefore be abolished. No free elections should be allowed and only one party should be tolerated on the political stage, and that party is, of course, the Yellow Shirts.
1. Not “many” Lao people went to BKK
2. Lao people are too lazy (laid-back!) to be bothered with BKK politics
Of course this does not diminish the valuable points the author makes about the political situation in Laos, about which he seems to be depressingly correct.
I don’t need to say it – the numbers of readers and commenters do – but New Mandala is an invaluable resource. I appreciate the insight of the contributors and the thoughtful commenters and the hard work of Andrew Walker and Nich Farrelly.
While his reflections on politics in Lao are interesting, the author should offer more than just anecdotal evidence to support his claim that a) “many” of the red shirt demonstrators in Thailand were / are in fact Lao and b) that they/anybody got paid to take part.
Also information how much the yellow shirt/”royalist”/Suthep supporters get/got paid should be included.
As it is, and considering the political situation in Thailand right now, this article sounds like a propaganda piece for the yellow shirts and, even worse, the coup generals. So much so that I’m surprised the New Mandala editors thought it fit to be published here.
Of course this does not diminish the valuable points the author makes about the political situation in Laos, about which he seems to be depressingly correct.
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“Foreign influence” in Red Shirt demonstrations
I have to say it’s disappointing. It makes you wonder about all of Grant Evan’s published writings. Does he always report rumor as fact? He should be embarrassed. As others have noted here, there is no evidence at all suggesting people were hired from Laos to attend Red Shirt rallies.
Even a lazy journalist would never have written a story making a claim like this (without interviews and research), and here we have an academic doing it!
“The most recent demonstrations held by the Thai Red Shirts in Bangkok included many Lao nationals. Just how many is impossible to tell.”
What an incredible statement! Based completely on hearsay from “local informants” from a village in Laos.
Thailand, what next?
Call it “Ministry of Propaganda” or “Department of PR”, modern military or any self-respecting dictator need this in the modern era.
Or else they just end up with ham-fisted attempt to provide public information, much like that video which eerily similar to “confession” video of captured GI in Korea.
“Foreign influence” in Red Shirt demonstrations
There is nothing wrong with the article except it is better title, “Red shirt demonstration influence on foreign”.
On a side note, there were many “farang” who join the PDRC protest and they were cheered. But if it’s neighboring countries with same ethocultural identity, they should not interfere with Thai politic and must surely be paid. Interesting.
“Foreign influence” in Red Shirt demonstrations
Disappointing Grant. Regional affiliations are well known and should not discredit or belittle any emphathy that Lao villagers may have or feel for their brothers and sisters across the river. The feeling may well be sincere and all peoples have a loathing for double standards, murder and impunity, especially when it comes to ethnolinguistically related neighbours. It you want to look for paid participation then turn to southerners coming to Bangkok for creating mayhem in the capital, armed by the military, past six months: THAT is well documented.
After the coup
Thanks to the New Mandala,I have found my courage here:
“Courage is the most important of all the virtues because without courage, you can’t practice any other virtue consistently.”
MAYA ANGELOU
Sukarno’s two bodies
I think a more accurate description is both Prabowo and Jokowi manifestation of the Suharto, trying to wrap themselves in clothes of Sukarno.
Prabowo desire for a strong President represent the harking for strong state of the Suharto era. However, Jokowi represent the yearning for a humble administrator, but without Suharto’s brutality. Jokowi and others like him have shifted the PDI-P rightward, with the talk of getting rid of the subsidies and turning his back on the labor unions.
Just like Suharto, Jokowi is best when he talks about concrete programs and policies, not making vague statements.
After the coup
“We foreigners who love Thailand . . .” In my experience, practically all expats (German, Korean, Australian, etc.) – genuinely living and working or retired – oppose non-elected government. Why is it, then, that the two primary English-language papers feature in their letters section missives from foreigners virulently opposed to democratic interests in Thailand?
Two possibilities come to mind –
1. My expat acquaintances mostly live in Issan, where people value the voting process, or
2. These newspapers only collect letters from bar stool dives along Sukhumvit – where half of the occupants therein are overstays.
Sukarno’s two bodies
Both Joko Widodo are products of the Suharto ara, both they manifest itself in different ways. For Prabowo, its desire to return to New Order authoritarianism. For Joko Widodo, his policies are solidly New Order during the last year of New Order. During the last year he has moved the PDI-P rightward. The talk of ending the fuel subsidies and within five years, refusing to budge on raising minimum wage alot during his second year for that he did not get support of the labor unions. Most Indonesians want a leader who has the quiet humble administrator (doer) — Suharto, but without the brutality. Joko Widodo able to do that.
I think the author places too much blame on a Suharto, the New Order was built by a group of people, it was only when Suharto tried to concentrate his power, did those groups become more alienated. Do you think Suharto alone was responsible for the anti-Communist purges?
Both wrap themselves in Sukarno’s clothing, both are a product of the Suharto period, but just in different ways.
Campaigning on religious nationalism
I wonder how big a factor Shiism was prior to Kang Djalal’s electoral success? Would you say that most voters were aware of the fact that Kang Djalal is a Shia figure and an advocate for Ahmadiyah rights prior to the reactionary anti-Shia campaign against him after the election?
Campaigning on religious nationalism
What are these Iranian bogus cultural centres in Jakarta with religious and political aims?
Thorns of the Thai rose
Spot on comments!
After the coup
Dear BKK lawyer,
We foreigners who love Thailand and have friends there are very unhappy about the situation. Shame on the European Union, The Scandinavian countries in particular, and Canada, ie. all those countries usually very vocal in the question of human rights for not so much as a squeak of protest.Only the USA., the UK., France and Australia have reacted. Add to that South-Africa who could not protest gross human rights abuses in Zimbabwe.
The tide of history is against the present regime, and cannot be stopped.
A lesson for researchers
Ahem…there’s nothing ‘mild mannered’ about providing ideological and/or financial support to Communists like Fretilin during the Cold War. Had you commenced your activism after the fall of the Berlin Wall I may be more inclined to accept your disclaimer.
As someone with living family to protect in E.Timor, they value my anonymity. Whether Gusmao’s goons, or Ricardo’s goons, or David’s goons, or Chicito’s goons, or Bendito’s goons,or Rogerio’s goons,or Longginhos’ goons or the many other goon squads operated by the assorted mafiosos who run the joint, they all threaten people, and worse, for loose talk their bosses don’t like. Jeez, you can lose your job AND get a beating just for questioning somebody’s right to enter the VIP room at the airport. As many readers will be aware, the current Gov is trying to shut down debate and criticism in their own, very tame media, so reliant on Gov advertising. Let’s hope their fellow travelers in Australia don’t succeed in shutting down debate here before it’s even started.
As Mr W is so happy to serve as a proxy for the shades behind CAVR, I’m sure he can find a few minutes to tell us why they refuse to record for history the murders by Fretilin of the Liurais from Beco, Raimea and Mape, along with many of their people? Or why they’ve tried to fit up former integrationists with murders perpetrated by independence/Church figures? Because, Mr W, if just a single case of deliberate falsification or cover-up can be shown, as it can and will be, it destroys the credibility of the whole shabby pseudo academic pantomime as a source for future researchers.
“Foreign influence” in Red Shirt demonstrations
This article would have some point, if it were not just based on nebulous local informants, comment and gossip, but on actual data and interviews of the supposed participants, including their motivations and not just assumptions of the author over motivations. Has the author actually taken the time to look at Red Shirt rallies and found some of those Laotians there, and interviewed them?
So far, this claim is not supported by any evidence whatsoever. I am not aware of any Laotians having been arrested in the dispersal at Aksa, for example, or at any other Red Shirt rally. Neither can i remember having spoken with any native Laotians at Red Shirt rallies.
I do not see the logic in that claim either. Why would Red Shirt leaders need to hire a few hundred Laotions, and risk a PR debacle, when the rally at Aksa had at their peak somewhere around 40 000 to 60 000 protesters from Thailand itself?
This claim just doesn’t make any sense, and is not supported by any evidence whatsoever.
“Foreign influence” in Red Shirt demonstrations
What an interesting piece of writing this is. So now we know that the political bosses in Lao share exactly the same views on stabily, peace and democracy as the coup leaders in Bangkok, ie. that democracy is dangerous and undermines the social fabric and political stability, and should therefore be abolished. No free elections should be allowed and only one party should be tolerated on the political stage, and that party is, of course, the Yellow Shirts.
“Foreign influence” in Red Shirt demonstrations
Would yellow shirt demonstrations be possible in Laos?
“Foreign influence” in Red Shirt demonstrations
1. Not “many” Lao people went to BKK
2. Lao people are too lazy (laid-back!) to be bothered with BKK politics
Of course this does not diminish the valuable points the author makes about the political situation in Laos, about which he seems to be depressingly correct.
After the coup
I don’t need to say it – the numbers of readers and commenters do – but New Mandala is an invaluable resource. I appreciate the insight of the contributors and the thoughtful commenters and the hard work of Andrew Walker and Nich Farrelly.
“Foreign influence” in Red Shirt demonstrations
While his reflections on politics in Lao are interesting, the author should offer more than just anecdotal evidence to support his claim that a) “many” of the red shirt demonstrators in Thailand were / are in fact Lao and b) that they/anybody got paid to take part.
Also information how much the yellow shirt/”royalist”/Suthep supporters get/got paid should be included.
As it is, and considering the political situation in Thailand right now, this article sounds like a propaganda piece for the yellow shirts and, even worse, the coup generals. So much so that I’m surprised the New Mandala editors thought it fit to be published here.
Of course this does not diminish the valuable points the author makes about the political situation in Laos, about which he seems to be depressingly correct.
Thailand: a “soft revolution” in a happy country
This is an evidence, Junta hire people to cheer them.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/10341551_918973671465219_506748297747271317_n.jpg